Royal Family Dynamics and Listener Questions

This is a global production. So far, all we've heard from Andy Burnham is a series of pledges, half of which he then goes back on when people point out why you couldn't do that And I really do fear that he could turn out to be busted flush before he's even had time to flush you make of those who compare Burnham to Johnson ambitious, but ideologically vain, something of a political loner who relies on other people to coalesce around him and organize him? that he's built his reputation on a merial heritage and that these are overwhelmingly kind of zeitgeisty, viy jobs. I think the key word you used there was vibbey becausecause Andy is all about the vibes Hello and welcome to a slightly late edition of the End of Week where Politics meets History podcast. We're recording this at nine What was it? nine something fifteen on Friday morning ' normally record on Thursday afternoon. but we decided to wait for the King of the North to appear. And boy has he appeared, Tessa? T sixteen, notot quite ready. ust just touching my eyebrow 've got the lashes on, but you know, there's a lot of competition now. we've got a king Coming down from the north, us two queens have got to improve our act What do reckon how' it looking? So homophobic Hello Andy. You're looking gorgeous as ever, of course. And I did think to be fair to Andy, he looked quite good for his age last night Um Did he I was kind of listening to the television rather than watching it. I don't know whether he had his black t shirt on or whether he'd actually dressed up for the occasion. And actually black can be very draining for men over fifty, but he had some good blush on and I think he had a little bit of Charlotte Tilbury sheen on the cheeks. So everything was looking very sunlit. The sunlit uplands of hope Because what does Andy Burnham give us? Hopism againgst starmarism I mean, it was very Barackabamarish, wasn't it? Which basically meant it was all meaningless bollocks. But let's not be trivial because it was an amazing victory for him Nobody can deny that. fifty four percent of the vote, he got more votes than all the other candidates put together. Lots to unpick from this result, I think, because nobody, absolutely nobody was predicting that he would win by a majority of nine thousand. No, but the intelligent voter who sits in the middle and we still have to believe there's a lot of intelligent voters who sit in the middle They made a canny decision, which is to hold off the reform tide, they're going to have to Labour. make themselves more presentable for the next election. And so you saw conservatives and liberal Democrats leave behind their party allegiance in I think, and greens and greens to be fair, in a brave way because that's difficult for many people get in behind Burnham. And I think it was probably the right thing to do. The only person in the centerish of politics who's not thinking that this morning, of course, is Starmer Yeah, it's very difficult to compute what is going through his mind this morning because In some ways He would be pleased because it was a great victory for Labour. but it wasn't really, was it? I mean it was a great victory for Berham personally So I don't know what Starmer does now. I mean, he must realize, surely, that the game is up. And is he really going to put labour through? a contest. And is West Streeting now going to put labor through a contest? Because It seems And the one thing that you can draw from this is that he has scored a victory not just for himself, but for his party and for labour activists. And let's remember in any leadership contest, it's the activists that have the vote. It's not MPs. Well they they have one vote and each activist has one vote. So the next week is going to be absolutely fascinating and I can't believe I'm not going to be on the radio to talk about it. I that must hurt, Ian, but never mind, you've got the antidote that is football. Tessa, every time I go on holiday, there's always some massive story that blows up and I'm just sitting there thinking, Why did I take this week off? Be I think sometimes you need to sit e and like Osmosis, allow these stories to seep in. And you know as well as I do that it's all cultural capital. You will draw on this and you will actually be more tentive of what's happening and able to better compute it by being an observer like the rest of the nation than actually in real time trying to articulate what's happening. So you in years to come, you'll still be pulling on this Burn escapade and it's not doesn't surprise me that every time you go on holdy there's a drama because we've been in a sort of psycho drrama for the last ten years. Thisoming week, of course, we're arriving at the tenth anniversary of Brexit. need I remind you I? Oh, she's got it in. She's got it in got less than ten minutes. Well done, well done. We just have to have gender and misogyny at coming. They're coming Let's do I bet they are. A professional trail for the pod I have been doing a deep dive into Tudor politics and have been absolutely mesmerized by the way in which are divisive politics, this idea of it being a sort of twenty first century phenomenon Hell no We had Gender religion Nationality playing out in a horribly divisive way. but the end game wasn't a man coming down as King of the North with new eyebrows, It was getting your head chopped off or your hand burnt So actually, things are better now, Ian than they were in Tudor Times. I thought I'd leave that thought with you. Of course they were. yeah. You can tell that by Elizabeth I first teeth, can't you? There was no dentistry. By all accounts, Lady Jane Grey, who tried to usurp the throne, Oh, there's a terrible misogynist as well. in the form of a fifteen year old It's extraordinary. I never really gave Edward VI much thought, but had he lived, I think he'd have been worse than Henry VII. I'm very glad I've decided he died early of a lung condition. How you work that out? I do not know, but we will come on to that in a bit. You mentioned Andy Burnham's looks there. kind of impugning or is it imputing one or the other, that he might pluck his eyebrows and maybe shave that little bit in between Do you think he does that? I hope he does. The current Prime Minister of Romania has what I call a caterpillar. He was also temporarily the president when all the elections went wrong. and it's very distracting a caterillar eyebrow, you know, the monobbrow becausecauseuse you kind of find yourself when they're on tele talking, especially if you're a woman. Yeah, that's even worse, but you find yourself looking at the eyebrow. And I think, while I'm not a big one for doing anything more than plucking and pulling. I think that there is sufficient help today to be able to deal with that. like hair removal creams have been around for a while. Elizabeth I first had an excuse. I'm afraid Andy Garham doesn't. But he's looking sharp Everyone says, o K Starma, I'll spend the weekend you know chewing over it and sleeping on it. He ain't going to be doing much sleeping, Karma if we just ly in this suumms up England and Scotland both had early victories in the World Cup. There's a feel good vibe. I think that will have helped Ber these things do help. A let's not skate over that magnificent four to victory that England had. It was one of the best England performances I think I've ever seen, certainly in an attacking point of view Would you like to congratulate the England team on their fantastic performance? It' all about looking to Scotland tonight and canan they hold Morocco to a draw? The money's not on that. Yeah, I have a little bit of a fear about tonight, I have to say because Morocco are actually quite a good team. To keep with the Tudor analogies, I think Morocco's going to give Scotland a rough wooing. Back to England. Did you watch it? I watched some of it I loveved the Romanianew we have the Romanian teleion in our highouse for the World Cup because of Dan and the Romanian take on Harry Kain getting given a penalty, then getting given the penalty again. It was like, o they want they obviously need the English viewers to stick with the World Cup. you know like that was the first goal. for God's sake. the fact that the goalkeeper actually came off his line thus flouting all the rules, that had nothing to do with it course. Nice to see that Romanian television is as factual as the BBC. By the way, just on that 've seen this story from the telegraph and it does seem to be true. that the BBC not only recruited people via a migrants organisation to be in the audience of that immigration question time in Dover. They actually coach them and what they should say. Stop I mean, I saw Zia Yusef do a video on that and I mean, given that he was on the receiving end of it all, I mean he had every right to be absolutely incandescent, didn't he? I think you're taking Umbridge too quickly As someone who tries her best to hold Romanian politicians to account in a poorly learnnt second language, I speak like an immigrant. I didn't learn the Romanian grammar at school I know how hard it is on the spot to try and be articulate. And actually I went to the consulate when I kicked off this whole Romanian GCSE thing because I thought that the status came from the Romanian side. and I got a friend to coach me in how to ask the question effectively. I literally learnnt it off by my heart. and I'm a seasoned b. Are you seriously comparing that to the state organization ting people in an audience on their own program specifically to do down a particular party politician on question time. Are you seriously drawing that analogy? I'm not drawing that analogy. I think what I'm trying to flag up is that communication is everything. We've just seen that with the Andy Burnham win Can you define what Burnnamism is? No, can you see's not changing the subject. But it's key here because actually if you're unable to communicate effectively because you're working in a second language, but're not going to get a message across. They could all speak English, but one of them even brought in Boris Johnson Paroguing Parliament and the ECHR. and he was clearly reading off a screen on his phone And you think if the BBC really to stp to that level. No wonder people have lost trust in it. I would need to first of all interrogate the telegraph article. Secondly, I don't think I have a problem with broadcasters trying to get the best out of their contributors. So I would need to know where the genesis of the information came from, like if they were actually fed the lines or if they would just help to articulate a point. And I think there's a clear difference between those two things, Ian. Well, the fact is that they wouldn't do that with any other member of the audience because the audience is supposed to apply to come on the programme And then the BBC pick the audience. And I mean this just almost proves people's allegations that they just pick it to slant against particular political parties U if they if they do that why would we watch that program anymore if that's what they do And I think there is a broader point there that we so often talk about migrants and asylum seekers but we don't often hear their voice And I think that It's welcome to include them in a national conversation. They certainly don't have a vote in local or national elections. So at least give them a voice and you need to to up your contributors I think let's not pretend that the BBC hasn't worked out who they're going to be first on questuion time. They always know it's going to be the lady in red or the man with the blue suit on. Yeah, because they pick the questions. But what I'm saying is this undermines confidence in the production of that programe because it's clearly biased and I think they'll lose a lot of viewers because of it. I think what we can conclude is our podcast definitely isn't biased. There's plenty of balance on either side of the fence. More on your side of the fence, obviously. Just before we go to a break though, brief comment on have you seen this story from Bristol City Council where they've banned the English flag from being flown in Bristol streets in case migrants are offended by I mean What kind of country are we becoming when a national flag is being banned by a left wing Council becausecause people who come people who've come to this country presumably because they like it or and they respect it, I mean What a surprise we have a national flag. I mean It's unusual exisition the time of a World Cup. Are you sure this isn't an old story being recled? I'm presuming it's the Absolutely not. No, it is a green partarty. Sheila Hogy was talking about it yesterday and she's not one to indulge in sort of populist rhetorory, but she was appalled. She said, If you believe in community, this does more to damage community relations than anything. What the implication is is that the English are so nationalistic and hate foreigners that they any any showing of the national flag is deliberately meant as an insult to migrants, which could not be further from the truth. And of course, you talk to, I'd be actually quite heartened by the number of Instagram reels I've seen of black or brown British people actually go out of their way to say Well, I'm flying the flag, I'm proud of England. and there are people going up in the street to ethnic minority people just walking down the street, saying, who dod you support in the World Cup and Well, I mean, obviously they've probably sort of hand picked them in some ways and maybe have deleted some others. But virtually all of them say, well, I'm supporting England. I'm British. I live here, so why wouldn't I support England? Well, British is a moute point. I would argue that it's weird timing because Getting behind a flag for a football contest is very different from flying a flag for political reasons. So that seems extraordinarily clumsy from Bristol Council if it's really the case. In a more broad context, I've always found the Union jack more inclusive. And one of my great sadnesses is that we don't play as a nation a bit like the Irish do for rugby. But we can come on to that Well, there is a history to that, of course, in that because football was invented in England, that the four home nations, FIFA have always given them dispensation to act independently and have their own teams, which I mean no other country has that privilege in the world And there have from time to time been efforts to have united Britain team but that's that's why traditionally Great Britain have not entered a team in the Olympics because they thought, well, if they do that, then there'll be a precedent and then FIFA will say, oh well, you can only have one in the World Cup or the Euros. But anyway, I just love the lions in rugby. But you don't like the three lions on the football shirt They're very English. I'm not. I was born my first twenty years in Scotland, and it doesn' How can lions be English? It does affect the way you viscerally respond to different flags and different football teams. And that's not a judgment on the way I feel in the country that I live, which I love. and I'm feel you know to be a. There was a guy on Instagram yesterday doing a reel in his car basically saying that he can't support England becausecause of the hyperbole that Sam Matatterface was and Lee Dixon were using in the commentary on whenever it was Tuesday or Wednesday that they were saying that he used one example of Decklan Rice, who Sam Matterface described as the best corner taker in the world, whichich I did think when I heard that was it Dixon, one of the two. I did think when I heard that, even I as the most massive Decklan Rice fan would not say he's the greatest corner taker in the world But of course, whenever your team is playing in the World Cup, you're sort of Y patriotism, whether you're a commentator or a fan I mean, it just multiplies by a factor of ten. Should we go to a break You think so When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done I know we're about to get a full debrief on three by elections. My little brother, of course, my spy up in Scotland has been sending me texts this morning on the fallout from the other two very, very low turnout in strong contrast to what went on in Macafield. But just quickly, I obviously follow Sarah Poachin on Instagram and I trust you do too, Ian. Possibly not But I will, I'll rectify that grievous, Sarah. She is, of course, the only female MP for reform, and she had some very, very cheering news. She said England won the football last night and thank goodness it did because on the occasions that England lose their football matches, the instances of domestic violence go through the roof So boys winning. In other words, Her response or answer to domestic violence is just for the football team to keep on winning. You can imagine Stella Creasey blew up about this. She was so incandescent with rage. Which I'm afraid, I mean, the fact that you've derided it, I think is quite sad too, because it is true that that happens and that's what she was pointing out And if Jess Phillips had done said exactly the same thing in a video, Stella Creasy, and you would both be saying, Well, well done, Jess, for highlighting this. No, I think that's where you're wrong point is her solution to stopping men beating women up when they're angry was for footballers to keep winning. That's not a solution to dem Be you cannot ever you cannot ever An sort of kudos to anyone on the right who says something to gain attention to an issue and that's what Sarah Poach has done with this, highlighted it. We haven't heard from the new safeguarding Mister on this. Natalie Fleet we haven't heard from Stella Creisy on this, apart from deriding Sarah Poin. So the fact that she's got us talking about it, she wasn't being serious about saying, o that's the only solution to domestic violence during the World Cup. I mean, we're actually talking about it, so give us some credit for that. It just felt very glib. but another just making a tally of all the things we fundamentally disagree on today and I'm already scoring through five Let's return to Andy Burnham because I think we're both a bit lukewarm about Andy's but I definitely have understood better his ability as a communicator, his boosterism against stararism, his hope against the hopelessness. Haven't I understood that? Well I think no that's just where I've come to, but I'm skeptical about whether he's going to give us effective political and economic stewardship. Well, I've said right through the whole campaign He's a better salesman and marketeer than Starmer. He's a better salesman a marketeer than most politicians to give him due But where's the beef to coin the phrase? And I don't see that he's got this marvellous plan for Britain. I mean, if if there is a coronation, let's say Kiirst Starma decides, okay, the game' up Go But I'm not waiting until September. They want me out, okay, I'm going to go now He will be in the same position David Cameron would have been in had David Davis stood down after the first round of the leadership vote in two thousand five George Osbourne, his campaign manager, pleaded with Andrew Mitchell, who was David Davis' campaign manager, not to quit the race because Cameron wasn't ready to govern, or lead the party, hadn't got any plan ready Thesa May, similarly, when Andrea Ledson pulled out in twenty seventeen, she had no plan Sorry, twenty sixteen. She had no plan ready to go. And we saw the disastrous effects of that in her disastrous premiership. And I rather fear the same could happen here becausecause so far All we've heard from Andy Burnham. is a series of pledges, half of which he then goes back on when people point out you couldn't do that And I really do fear that he could turn out to be U well, a busted flush before he's even had time to flush if you see what I mean do you make of those who compare Burnham to Johnson? And I'll just give you a couple of the ideas that I've picked up that have been swirling around. The idea that he is likewise ambitious, but ideologically vain, that he's something of a political loner who relies on other people to coalesce around him and organize him he's built his reputation on a merial heritage, a merial patch his in Manchester, obviously Johnson's in London. And these are overwhelmingly kind of zeitgeisty, vibey jobs, which capitalize on their ability, and clearly they both do have an ability to sell in stories to a broader to sell a positive narrative about your particular locality I think the keyword you used there was vibe because Andy is all about the vibes I don't know if you saw most of his TikTok or Instagram reels from his campaign during the by election. There wasn't a single mention of any policy in those videos. It was all about Andy Burnham's likeability and I'm one of you, I'm a normal guy. and all obviously it was about M afield because the by election was in that constituency But there was no substance there whatsoever Boris I mean, I think this I think I read the same article as you on that. I think the The comparison with Boris is rather overdone. I mean, obviously there are one or two similarities, but onlyn up to a point, Lord Copper, are they similar I think Boris did have some basic ideological grounding. I don't think Andy Burnham has got that I think Boris initially and certainly when he was mayor of London surrounded himself with really good people because he recognised his own weaknesses. When your campaign manager is a former cabinet minister who resigned um, over lies over nicking a phone. I mean, I do wonder whether that's a brilliant judgment on his part. and Louis Hag inevitably, who Id rather like and that shouldn't be held against her for time immemorial. She will no doubt be in his cabinet. I'm Well, as I go back to the phrase, where's the beef? You can't get through being Prime Minister unless you have some basic No moral groundings, I don't really mean it in that sense, not in a sort of back to basic sense. Where is your? political ideology that drives you forward and I don't think he's really got one. It's all about what's best for Andy Burnham. Let's look at the doomerism that engulfed stararism from the get go. and I don't think we should underplay the economic inheritance in twenty twenty twenty four now. yeah, two years ago So if we now look at surprisingly good inflation results, growth higher than expected Actually, things aren't as bad as they were two years ago Harriett Harman made, I thought the intelligent point that those three men and she did stress that they were all men W streeting. Really Starmer and Burnham in a room, you couldn't get much of a rzzler paper between their policies. like most people I think really Absolutely could. You absolutely could. Political geeks. Her point was, unless you're a political geek, you wouldn't really have a clear idea of how they differ politically actually the main failing of Starma is his inability to sell the message. And actually if you change the face, change the vibe then you're going to start getting results or at least be able to push back a bit against your political opponents. That's exactly what conservatives said about Boris Johnson Let's get rid of Boris for all sorts of different reasons And then what comes next will be better? Well, then we got Liz Truss So my fear here I think it's going to be quite an interesting for us outsiders too my say. people think we're insiders, but for people outside the Labour Party and outside government, I think it is going to be fascinating to watch and see how he does. And I'll say right from the beginning, as I said with Kir Starmmer when he became Prime Minister, I wish him well because if the prrime Minister does a good job, we all benefit from that. And I remember at the time, people it was always a ridiculous thing to say No, it's not. Surely most people think like that unless you really are such a tribal political animal that you can see no good in any of your opponents U and then you just become myopic and just become an armchair critic and will criticise anything that they do. And I've tried to be fair to Starmer and give him credit where he's done well. It's become increasingly difficult nearly two years on becauses' still under two years into the Starmer government Um And I if Andy Burnham takes over, Well, I hope I'm wrong about his lack of beef I hope you're wrong because there is the viby wave that do you think I have? I think this may be enough to save Labour' skin at the next election. If there's a smooth transition, I would be interested if Stara believes he can fight this. I think he has even less of a political antennae than I gave him credit for. I think where Streetings probably as a more intelligent individual than both those two men is reading the political writing on the wall and recognizing that this isn't his time to go for the throne. And I think you'll pull in behind Burnham, and I think it'll be a coronation I kind of hope it is because the idea of another contest just fought out, by the way, not by the general public, not us, but by Labour Aarachks local national in the Parliamentary Labour Party, it doesn't feel more democratic, it doesn't give, I don't think the subsequent Prime Minister more credibility, and it does include more status, more hanging around and waiting for them to actually get on and govern So I think I'm waiting for ani coronation as soon as possible. It doesn't mean that he would be my chosen individual, but That's the one that the political weather vein's thrown up And so be it I can almost bet a lot of money when we would have been having similar conversations about conservative leadership contests, and if I said, I think there should be a coronation You'd have been ranting about how undemocratic it was. It's outrageous. There should be a general election, blahy, blahady blah. Well, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to throw open to the grassroots conservatives because their judgment has proved time and time again. How undemocratic would that be? Indeed. so I always feel very conflicted about Prime Ministers changing in the middle a mandate, But given we're facing down the prospect of a reformed government, although that looks less likely, doesn't it this morning, I think we've got to read the mood music. The writing on the wall for Stara is very apparent. and they just need to get on and take the plunge. And I think most of them will do that. I want to come on to Scotland in just one minute, but on Nigel Farraage Like you, I've been checking out Instagrams because it's clearly where it's at. Did you see one of Nigel Farraage's latest Instagrams? Well, until you tell me what it is, I can't tell you whether I've seen it or not. Walking his dogs on a beautiful Essex beach. And why not? Good times are coming back with a flat cap, throwing a stick I think the lesson on reform is that they find it in every by election there has been so far I think I'm right in saying that they haven't broken out of the thirty to thirty five percent mark, which if you're going to win a by election, you have to. OkayK, they did in Run callall and give them that But they didn't in Gordon and Denton I don't think they did in that Senetate election. I think they got thirty five percent there And if there really is a ceiling on the reform vote, and I suspect there is, that's got to give them a bit of concern to think, well how can we if we're going to actually make Njra Farra prime minister Um And we're going to have this sort of tactical voting in a general election that took place in this by election It might be quite difficult for that to happen. I still think that the bookies will still put reform most likely to form the next government, but it's still two, three years away. So unless Andy Berher surprises us all and does go for a general election, which I highly doubt. and if he did, he'd be mad I still think reform are in the game In terms of the other parties, it doesn't there's no point in interpreting the other parties. apart from possibly have a word about restore who've got three thousand odd votes, seven percent of the vote So if you added that to the reform vote, they would have got to forty two percent. I mean, Ruut Low's lot could do a lot of damage across the country to reform, and it would be a bit odd for reform to complain about it because restestore will be doing to them what they did to the Conservatives in the last election. Indeed, I think what I really took away from the Instagram post was the idea of Nigel Farrars trying to channel a more optimistic, hopeful idea of what he stands for because the Nary angry Fage that we saw in the wake of the policing ferar around Henry Novak's murder, I don't think did him any favours. And this was him sort of being Merry England. And I think that will be the image that he tries to put forward over the next couple of years more and more Let's see, in other news, two significant by elections in Scotland that fall under the radar because I noticed in Makerfield, the turnout was fifty eight percent up in Scotland, according to Duncan, MSP for the liberal Democrat for the south of Scotland these days, Tories won in Aberdeen on a thirty eight percent turnout. This is due to oil house prices there have been tanking apparently by more than five percent And that is capping off recent equivalent falls and also of course, the stain of morl. But what surprises me is that the SMP had any sort of victory at all, and they did in our Brth and Braghty Fairy, with a thirty one percent turnout. That is extraordinary indictment of the Scottish political system, a thirty one percent turnout that saw SMP sneak home with one victory out of two I think the consonservatives were obviously jubilant about Aberdeen South because I must admit I wasn't expecting that. And if you dig into the figures there, They got Just under fifty percent of the vote share, forty nine point five percent. That's a twenty five plus twenty five point one from the general election. Let's remember this was Stephen Flynn seat and he resigned it to once he got into the Scottish Parliament Now you look at the SMP vote which is actually only down four point two percent from to twenty eight point six Um And your little brother won't be pleased at the Liberal Democrat voteser. four point four percent. They lost their deposit there as well. But the other significant point here is that the labor vote declined by nineteen point four percent. So you had a direct transfer from labour to conservative Now that I think is an interesting phenomenon. Now whether that translates outside Scotland, I don't know. But for the conservatives to effectively double their vote share in a by election in Scotland, I think Kemmy Baderot will see that as a personal victory for her because she's been in that seat campaigning on several occasions over the past few weeks and I wouldn't be surprised if she turns up there today Now to Scott, of course, it should be noted that what we have opening that. is in some ways, similar to what went on for Andy Burnnham in Mcafield, where you see the Conservative vote, the Liberal Democrat vote, planting very strategically behind a labour candidate, and likewise up in Aberdeen, a recognition that if we want to get the SMP out, we've got to coalesce behind one particular candidate, but more broadly, it speaks very ill of where Starma is. Because if you strip out the Burnham factor in the Makerfield by election, this was an indictment not just on the SMP, but also on Westminster's labour. So it's all sums down for poor old Starmer this morning. It wouldn't surprise me to see Anna Saower quit over the next few months. I think he was determined to stay, but I don't know what relationship he has with Andy Berham But when your vote share declines by nearly twenty points in a city Wh Labour have done okay in Aberdeen in the past. It has been a tourory seat from time to time. I think they won it. in the twenty seventeen general election against all odds, and then then Stephen Flynn came in in twenty nineteen. But I he's got a few questions to answer today. and of course, he's very ambitious to be the leader of the SMP after John Swweeninney. Well, this result won't do his chances any favors at all. It's a fascinating political landscape. It's divided, it's fractious and it's a bit angry. The balm of Andy, does he wear lip balm? That's the other question that I was contemplating last night before I went to bed. The Balm of Andy, is it sufficient? We'll find out over the next couple of years. In the meantime, I want to take us back in time after the ads, if you don't mind for a tiny touch of tudors if you must When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call one eight hundred ranger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done sorry if there are extraneous noises. It's a Friday morning in Tunbridge Wells and we have the rubbish truck come to collect our rubbish and it's just going by at the moment. so apologies if there is any interference. Is it a Cervative council, Ian? It's a liberal Democratic council, actually. Oh, interesting. And do they pick up your rub just as bad as the Tory council was Um, It seems to be a little bit random. They're supposed to come on Fridays, but sometimes they don't But I think that is the lot of everyone in life at the moment. Right, you want to go back in time to visit misogyny and genderism in the Tudor times. And also not just that, but the way in which we celebrate exceptionalism and the characters or the personalities that are thrown up in really divided times. So we all know that The grotesque, Henry VII straddles history like a sort of aging cololossus a thug of yester Year. And there was this man who broke with the church in Rome in order to divorce Catherine of Aragon so that he could have a male heir. It wasn't about religion. He was born a Catholic. He was probably always deep inside his bones a Catholic, but he breaks with the church. So then you have a sort of bastardized form of the reformation and Protestantism that comes in reluctantly that will eventually emerge within a hundred years as Anglicanism What happens fascinatingly, and I've never really given this much thought. under Hen obviously you pull under the monasteries, you make as much money as you can, you make a big thing of it being all about England, your wholebeying portraits and your big postur and king. You then finally get this male heir, who by the way, I never really realize. I don't know when I say Edward VI to you, what image does it conjure up When I say that? Well, all I know about Edward theI that he was effectively he was a teenager when he became king. and died as a teenager. Nine actually. Was he nine? He was nine when he became king. So he dies at fifteen. Yeah. and that's frankly all I know about him. It's interesting because I always had this idea and I think it's because of one of the portraits that he was sickly that he was always sickly and' kind of destined to snuff it But actually that wasn't the case She got this horrible cold and cold, as we know, in sheutter times could be fatal at a masqu where there was much japing and merriment about six months before he dies, and of course, it goes into his lungs, he's coughing blood. So he's quite ill for a significant period for the sort of last five months of his life. He's increasingly aware that he might die and that's where this inheritance and the decisions about succession become increasingly fraught. But actually he was one of the best educated on it princes actually miners or kings, if you want to of all time. He was a Rnaaissance king. was Not just that. You know today we talk about and you see it manifesting in green politics at the moment, those ideological young dare say at brackets, I live with one. You know They are absolutely right, they know best their way or the highway. They have, I think, very little tolerance for us baggy old folk who they think are retrograde and not worth the paper that we're writing on. And it was very similar with Edward. L his was a white hot form of Protestantism He wanted to get rid of his father's bells and smells he really wanted this kind of lean mean Protestant machine that Henry didn't buy into. Henry just wanted to get rid of the Church of Rome so that he could get his divorce. out of the way, but under Edward, it was this very, very purureitanical version of Protestantism And it would have been fascinating if he'd lived to continue this extraordinary reformation with Kramer by his side. Of course he doesn't, and he's frantically scoring through the problem is, except for Edward, there's a surfit of women on every single line of the Tudor trees.'t he's desperately scoring through his sisters. He ends up with Lady Jane Greayy and he thinks well, I'll just have her children, her boy children And finally, when he realises he' actually going to die, he scores through that and adds and Lady Jane Grey, I has to concede that as he's not going to live, it'll have to be a woman that replaces him and then you get this horrible spectre of a female monarch we'd never had one Of course, Matilda tried her best a few centuries earlier, but we'd never had a female king as they were termed. And that threw up all sorts of other issues about whether it was possible, what this meant for the nation. But I was just really riveted by this Teenage embodiment of righteousness that we see everywhere at the moment manifesting particularly, but not only in green politics. Oh and indeed in your own household Yeah, I know, I'm terrified she's about to jump on the Zoom because she's finished her exam. so she's got some very high powered Zoom to get work experience So I'm speaking even quicker than usual. But it just interested me. And then of course, you get Mary, the Catholic, much older sister. And the other thing is I was reading this fascinating exchange between Mary and her little brother who is thirty years younger than her, who is king Can you imagine the goal Having to take it from your half sibling who's thirty years younger than you. He's obviously a Protestant, she's a Catholic. They both end up in tears, you'll be glad to hear, not just her, conforming to the hysterical idea of a woman that manifested at the time. But it was just, I don't know, just really reminded me of today's politics. And you get Mary then famously bloody Mary, wasas she that bloody? Obviously all the revisionists say o, she wasn't that bad she only you know burnt three hundred people, including Kramer who goes in with his you know, he recants and he sticks his hand in the fire first, the hand that he scored off his beloved Protestantism with And then of course, ultimately, you get the Fudge candidate, you get Elizabeth The sort of Theereresa May, except she wasn't Theresa May. she was actually Theereresa May ideologically, but she was Margaret Thatcher in terms of her ability to channel the iconography of the age. And I just found so many parallels with today. I was utterly gripped. Given you've been talking about royal things, there's been a couple of royal stories in the news this week Meghan and Harry and children are descending on this country in July. What could possibly go wrong, Tessa Dunlock I know well, I'm bit like it's a bit like you being on holidy with politics. I think I might be on the cruise when Heyday for you. Yes. I know, but I think I'm gonna Oh no. Cuise. Oh reallyally Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh de. I actually posted about this. I thought in some ways the decision to send George to Eton has longer long term, bigger long term implications for the royal family than a fly by night visit from Harry and Meghan, who really, I think will increasingly become yesterday's story. Her business isn't going terribly well as ever bottom line is a bit like the British economy, anemic. And I think They'll fudge along and it'll be reasonably amicable, increasingly amicable. I think the Ryal family feel they're on quite a strong footing. My concerning in going into the future is that if in Tudor times, we couldn't abide the idea of a woman initially at least Today, we have embraced the difference that popular monarchies thrown up with Victoria and then with Elizabeth. And the idea that we have Charles white Potestant, Male Posh, not Eaten Eedducated, but then William, all those things plus Eaten and then George all those things plus Eaten And George could live for another ninety years. That's a lot of saminess the head of state level. It's interesting. the reason I wanted to bring this up was there's a UgOv survey about what the public think about George going to Eton Have you seen this Okay, tellell me what you what percentage of the general public approve of George going to Eat. that's her. I would think it goes down royal lines. Well, actually actually to be fair, the poll is about should royal children go to private school or state schools? Oh that's slightly different. Yeah, because I think as a royoyalist light. I think they probably would always go to private school just for security reasons because of their exceptional status I think that Eaton tops it out a bit because it's such an extreme version I think that it will be more than fifty percent forty nine percent say they should go to private schools. twenty one percent say they should go to state schools and don't know is whatever the rest is thirty od percent So I thought that was quite interesting. I'm not surprised that he's going to Eton U He's being groomed to rule, so I suppose if you're going to rule, you go to the school that has provided all of our rulers over the centuries and I call him terribly excited about it. I think you have to do what you think is right for your children and that's what William and Kate have decided. And also, William, I think he very much saw it as a refuge when his parents were going through their hideous divorce and then subsequently Diana's death. It's also proximate to where they live. It was very predictable it was going to happen. I mean, they moved from Norfolk to Windsor for goodness sake. But the big question is this. Will the children of Harry and Meghan meet their grandfather for the first time? I think they will It would be aw if they didn't, wouldn't it? It would look bad if they didn't. I think he's been slow off the mark with this, Charles. I mean we cut him slack I suppose for his age and stage, but I I read somewhere that he's going to try and provide their security, which is a kind of olive branch and They've done their best, I think, the Markles, I was going to call them, the Sussexes to not actuallyatch. Iagine if I'd done you would have jumped right down my throat if I'd done that, wouldn't you? Probably, yeah, probably. I think it's enough times past there's been a softening. I think there's been an understanding actually as well, that they didn't get everything right necessarily at the Sussexes, but also that it's not that easy outside the institution. Kate just has to put on a yellow dress and she grabs all the headlines. You know the king writes a pre written speech in front of Congress and he grabs all the headlines. and it is much, much harder outside the institution. and I don't think they probably had the foresight or knowledge to appreciate that. I've never really seen Kate interact with people. I mean, you see her having conversations, but I've never heard her before. And there was something I saw the other day where she was having a conversation with somebody that she met on one of the walkabouts and it lasted quite a while And it was just so natural. It wasn't her being grand and royal. She was really connecting with the person. I mean, I don't know whether she's like that normally, but she really mean she's never been down in my estimation, but she went up even further. Oh gosh, youve made my toes too Itutely predictable for a man of your age and stge to appreciate the assets of Kate Middleton Yeah, there's one thing that you forget there, but we'll gloss over that Now you've got some questions. I think I've got a couple as well. So let's take a short break and we'll come on to them Brilliant. Granger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park You're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Light's about to fail, filter's ready to clog, H back on its last leg If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering, and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Granger, click Granger. com or just stop by Granger For the ones who get it done you know what I've been doing over the last few days of my being on holiday? recording my audio book and it's been an absolute disaster because I'd got one of the settings wrong, so I then had to go back and do it all over again. And then I thought, well, it's got to be easy to upload, but you have to have settings on different things which I didn't know. So I've hired someone to do it all for me. but I've only got five chapters in. so only twenty two to go Oh my goodness. Hate recording audioobooks. This is where you wish you had been more brutal with your self edit button, Ian. Yeah, absolutely right Although the awful thing is when have you found this? you when you record an audio book you because you're reading it out, You don't discover mistakes necessarily, but you think, oh, I should have worded that a bit differently or I should have done that sort of slightly differently. It's quite frustrating when you sort of discover things And there's one thing in the editing process where I explain why I did German at school. and the reason was because I was one of the better ones at French, even though we're all shit in our class But I don't actually mention the word French because somehow it's got edited out. so I think well a normal reader isn't going to really understand that So I've corrected it in the audio book, but Anyway, enough of my frustrations. Do you have a question? No, but a tip I would give to aspiring writers is and even when I'm filing an article on Harry and Meghan, always try, don't always live up to this benchmark, but I always try and read it out loud before a vilet Yeah because you hear things very differently from the way in which you see them. And if you're reading to speak as opposed to just reading in your head. has a different way, a more interrogative way of interpreting the word on the page and it really helps. So that's a tip Here we have one from A whereere Politics Meets History on the Instagram. Hide both. On the last pod, Ian asked for evidence that the Australian economy is doing better than the UK Tessa pr call for Aussie listeners, so here I am. First average salaries Australia is a hundred seven thousand dollars. The UK is thirty nine thousand pounds, exchange rates equal X. therefore, Aussie salaries average fifty six thousand pounds to Britain's thirty nine thousand pounds. to GDP ratio, Australia is thirty four percent The UK one hundred and three point six percent. Australia last ran a budget surplus in twenty twenty three, the UK not since two thousand one. Australia has the third best global health system. the UK not in the top twenty. We get twice as many sunny days. Oh my goodness. we talk about cherry picking. I mean the thought that Australia has the best health service in the world, Well most Australians would not agree with that This is from Kate. She does end because she's trying to inject Valace at the end Valace at the end of her message And before the usual, but what about all the venomous animals' assertion is brought up? The most dangerous animal by fatalities in Australia is the horse Okay, well thanks thanks for that piece of information Hillary says, Ian, love the podcast with Tessa. She's great and I've started to read her books after hearing her discuss history with you. I enjoyed your recent discussions about Ukraine's war with Russia I think you mean Rusia's war with Ukraine, Hillary I wondered whether either or both sides are allowed to send letters home Have either of you read if you're reading this Last letters from the Fontline by Sean Price? It frequently had me in tears. Look out, Ian I love that you cry. Actually, I've just been commissioned You know you sometimes do this I newspaper Saturday column Tessla. Well I'm doing one where my book comes out and thanks for the name of the woman to contact, by the way And I'm writing it all about men crying and my preponderance to cry because when I've been reading the book back The number of times, in fact, I should do a word search on it, the number of times I talk about me crying or breaking down in tears or whatever. it's quite something. Anyway, continues. it covers letters from the Napoleonic battlefields to Afghanistan and is incredibly moving and thought provoking I haven't read that book or I haven't heard of it Hilary, so thanks for the tip But I imagine that most people who go into battle, whatever side they're on, They know what the outcome could be and so therefore the sensible thing would be not only to write a will, but to write a letter to your nearest and dearest Yeah, twoo points there. In fact, one of the most moving interviews I did for Last we forget, my book was Helen Lewis. I think I've mentioned this whose son Aaron Lewis died in two thousand eight in Afghanistan. It was shrapnel falling from a Taliban pump of a rifle just up into the air, a kind of bravado rip into the air of rifle fire that ended up totally randomly killing him. And she has taken great consolation. I mean, it didn't touch the sides, but it was a form of bomb from the letters that he left, the MOD stipulate ideally that before you go into operational service you leave behind letters l the worst case scenario happens. He did, many don't And in it, he beseeched her not to be angry with the government, not to be angry with the army, and not to be angry with Afghanistan, that it was his choice And it has, she said, really really helped her. She goes back to that letter every so often in her sort of hour of need or when she's really missing him And I find it deeply moving to talk to her. and I do think there's an absence or a glf or a gap if those letters don't exist when people hear the worst news possible. I think I know Seaan Price. I think she's Welsh, and I think she did a tele series or some broadcast that led to the publication of this book. Just quickly, because of electronic communication, I think the old form of letter writing is less prevalent now coming back from the frontline But in that Storyville BBC documentary that I beseech everyone to watch, there is communication, but it's inconsistent and their access sometimes or their ability to communicate is also sometimes interrupted I love your use of the word beseech. It's not often you hear that word used in everyday conversation nowadays Right. Be I've been reading Tutor History Yeah This one, it's from Tom And it's about Nicolas Sturgeon. So it goes back to the discussions we had a couple of weeks ago and I meant to read this out then but didn't get round to it He says, I've listened to various iterations of your podcast for over five years now and love the insights you give I struggle to listen to your defense, particularly in your last episode of M Sturgeon and her behavior and denials over events surrounding her husband's embezzlement. I actually think that you belittle the former First Minister's intelligence by suggesting she may not have had concerns regarding purchases made by her husband. Wake up, Ian, you're better than this. Do some digging. There might even be a book in it for you PS, the motor homeome you maintain that was plausible to have been unseen by her was visible from space via Google Maps, for goodness. Yeah, because I imagine Nicola Sturgeon spent a lot of time on Google maps looking at mother in law's house I do love it when people say, you often get this on social media. Ian, you're better than this. And you think, Well, no, I'm not actually. I was giving my honest views. and I think it's entirely plausible that she just didn't clock the thing. So I am not resiling on my views, Tom. But we will be discussing this at the Edinburgh fringe O november the eighth and do buy tickets from Edfringe d. comot I think you mean september the eighth and I've got to say that I don't. I mean august the eighth. was August. I think you said November. Oh did I? Eact I've got to say, I'm glad she gives you the benefit of the doubt and thinks that you're better than that because I don't think you are better And you know, nor do I. So we are in agreement. Whats a great way to end the podcast Oh God Now we will be recording another one at the normal time on Monday, so you'll get it on Tuesday. I've still got another week to go on my holiday, which I' spending not just recording my audio book But helping John clear out the garage, we've got two loads in a Ford galaxy taken to the dump so far and there's at least another three to go. So we're making progress I'm so glad that that didn't qualify as fluff at the top of the program Well, I just thought get in because I'm a man of the people, I do normal things. People imagine that because you and I are in the public eye that we have these sort of exalted lives where we just do lovely gorgeous things No, not like that at all. We live exactly the same life as anybody else. I went for dinner last night with an old friend. I hadn't seen her for a while and we were talking about, you know and