Future of Labour and Political Appointments

This is a global production. Kemy Badenok, she had quite a tricky task this week Because she didn't go for the jugular with Kir Starmer. In fact, she was quite sympathetic to him in some ways But she did go for Bridget Phillipson, she did go for Rachel Reedves, and she called Bridget Phillipson a spiteful class warrior for imposing VAT on private schools No, I thought that's quite a good phrase. And then she went Randy Burnham and called him two eyelashes and a black t shirt, which I thought was quite good. And then did you see that video that Andy Berham did in response to it. I thought this is quite funny. I wonder whether he would do this if he was Prime Minister. I hope he does in some ways He just got his camera up to do like effectively a video selfie And he goes, he looks down, He goes It's stark blue actually I just thought that was quite good. The timing there was excellent Tessa and I are bereft And the reason is because I have displayed complete and utter incompetence. Incompetence, I tell you, Because we have just spent forty five minutes recording what we both agree is probably one of our best podcasts ever Tessa, do you want to tell them why it isn't going to be the best podcast ever? Ian having expended a great deal of hot air, having exposed himself as a climate dinosaur, having browbeaten me over former conservative policies on electric cars. thenen suddenly midway through a piece on Kemy Badnock's compassion for her best friend Bridget Phillipson said, Oh my Godd Oh my god, and I thought, my goodness is Is he having a stroke? What's happened? Is the dog biting his big toe? Oh dear. his life in Tunbridge Wellell's not suiting him? No, o my god says, Oh my god. I thought he's spasming. What do I do? John's in the gym. And he said, I forgot to press record This is what happens when we don't have Coreory to basically control us Chaos breaks out and I mean, I'm so I'm so Horrified by it becausecause there was one bit in that which would have made such a good clip. When I got Tesla to admit that Brexit, in the case of electric vehicledates, was actually a good thing But we'll never hear it now. Never mind, Ian. I mean life is full of regrets. The benefit of hindsight. what I'm really enjoying about this moment is From now on you've got a slight padder about me arriving a few minutes late, not being prepared, pronouncing something incorrectly, I'm just going to go Press recording Mother Iin record Give me back forty five minutes of my life, my friend. Anyway, we would like to tell you that we've now rehearsed We have been really professional and we spent forty five minutes practicing our arguments. So if we fuck them up this time, everybody, it really is because of my concussion Ian and I are going to impart our wisdom on the climate. We're going to expose Ian something worse than a climate denier. he is I have will I have never se anything anything that you could call me that. And it's a horrible phrase to use because we all know what the connotations are. And I'm saying you're something worse than that because you recognise the climate is changing, that this is the responsibility of humankind. It's because of our actions. No I'm not. And yet really, Ian, I think You're at best lethargic should do aboutt I would suggest that you're protected by your privilege. That's why you don't really Are you sure it's not because I'm a man I recognize that climate change is happening I recognise that climate change has always happened. It's a natural phenomenon. However, I do also recognise that in the last hundred years, Climate change has been exacerbated by human activity The problem is that there are still people in this world who don't recognize that And they think that it is just all natural climate change and that things will revert to their natural levels over time and The problem that. is that the climate change Ide logues, someome people call them zealots. I'll call them ideal loogs People who have been warning about this for donkeys years, who now see all their predictions coming true in their view They are so dogmatic that they they don't think they need to persuade anyone anymore because they say the argument is one isn't one if you have a substantial minority of people Don't believe it Now you can come out and say, well, ninety nine percent of scientists do believe it And they'll say, yeah, but there are still lots of scientists who won't come out of the closet because they know that they'll lose all their government funding if they do I don't I think Part of the problem that we have here is that ever since this became a major issue in the nineteen nineties You have had people and it's a bit like the Brexit argument. people thought they could win the Brexit argument by calling opponents of the EU stupid or racist and whatever That's exactly how they think they've won the debate on climate change. But what they've done is entrenched people in their positions because they made no attempt to persuade them whatsoever. First of all, I commend you for just Youting your way through any fluff there. We didn't have to hear about John working out in the gym, which by the way, you got the first edition of the p, The unrecorded edition, because wait for it, the Tombridge Wells recycling unit was closed, so Ian and John were unable to flex their muscles, tossing mattresses into the tip and therefore John has gone to work out in an air conditioned gym is Well, Ian gets clicking from his dogs That is a complete travesty of what's happened today. Yes, you're right. in honor of your visit to this said establishment on Saturday for our barbecue, although I'm beginning to think I might rescind the invitation In honour of that, we're trying to get the house in some sort of semblance of order. John hasn't actually seen through my little tactics because every couple of years I think, o let's have a little social d at the farm because then I know that he's going to spend two days tidying up cleaning and making the house look as good as it can And of course that's what's happening now. So that involves Clearing out the garage, so you see what you've started here, you're going to regret it now. I you talking rubbish about the climate. Clearing out the garage and taking it all to the tip. And we've done two loads so far and this afternoon we loaded up a third load, but the tips closed because the poor little workers there are so hot that they can't work Yeah, they are out in the open, absolutely right. But is it beyond their wit to construct a bit of shade somewhere? I mean, they do work in a tip for goodness sake In other words, there isn't sufficient infrastructure. and I would argue one of the reasons why this country has been exposed for lacking any decent infrastructure to manage heat, which it has been in the last three days. It's been turned over. o. Luckily, we've had the King of the North to focus on and therefore we're desperately trying to pretend that we haven't noticed we're melting. But it's because of the use of the word and you kept on Um using it to in Belf, believe in climate change. No. This was baked into scientific reality. In fact, much of the science behind understanding how climate change happens It was established in the eighteen hundreds. It then became a self fulfilling prophecy when billions more people arrived on the planet. What did you mean it? It was created in the eighteen hundreds. No The science, the understanding the science behind what might happen. Wh I'm sorry. Who created it in the eighteen hundreds? They didn't create it, but there were several scientists, a couple of them, by the way, Swedish Gradually they all stand on the shoulders of each other, but started to understand the implications of greenhouse gases, global warming, etcetera. why the climate changes What you did then was you add in human ingredients, billions of us and the extensive, in fact it takes off in an unprecedented way in the wake of the Second World War, the burning, the global burning of oil Gas at the same time as we start hacking down trees like never before and the impact is climate change, which we are feeling like never before right now. And the reason we haven't got the infrastructure in place in is because far too much of the establishment mainstream media rejected an element of doubt with words like belief. They've politicized it and that's why we'reo de mess. They've politicized it. Oh so it's the media's fault. I'm surprised it isn't men's fault it's also political. I mean it's the establishmentmentssall. I want to come to a who would you say has been one of the most establishment broadcasters? You know the answer to this because we did it in the last unrecorded pod great buffoon. Who would you say is one of the most establishment broadcasters? I mean let me think, does my memory stretch back forty minutes? What would it possibly be? Melvin Bragg by any chance. Ian, how did you guess? Melvin Bragg, who is a lord, who is on received wisdom, one of the greatest minds in Britain today, an eminent broadcast we miss And someone with one of the best haircuts in Britain, but maybe not quite he's still got luxuriant looks at the age of eighty, whatever he is But in his hday, oh, I was so jealous of his hair. I always assume beneath those locks he had a better brain than you, but after I went back in time today and I listened to a twenty six year old in our time about the climate I have had real doubts about Melvyin Bragg. So we're going to come to that after the break. More on why Ian will be serving me English champagne the weekend Will you want to strech to that Well, I brought champagne to your do at Christmas. I'm assuming that you're going to bring champagne to mind because of the poters fies know, and also because Cory drank the champagne that you brought to my p. That's very true. But Ied as you know, I formed a little WhatsApp group, but I did actually text people individually to say what kind of things would you like to drink on Saturday And it doesn't seem as though many people are going to be drinking alcohol don't worry you can supply the champagne and if it's uncorked I'll just pop it in the back of the car. Let's go to a break Right, so educate us about what lord brag of wherever he is. In fact, while you're educating us, I will look up to see where he is of because the really good news. the really good news is because we're doing this plod for the second time. I've actually worked out how to say his name Every time she at St. Melville. He basically had on his show very beginning of the year two thousand after, and I quote him, the weather had given the planet a terrible beating in nineteen ninety nine. There were all sorts of major incidents Tens of thousands of people dying in typhoons and hurricane. Hurricane Floyd, I think was probably the most famous because of course, it wreaked havoc in America. Yeah There have been lots of there are always lots of hurricanes and tornadoes in America every single year, of course. But what's the word? the regularity of their occurrence Admittedly, over the last ten or fifteen years has increased. Do you believe that? or do you know that to be a f? No, it is a fact I just testing in So he had two significant guests on, O of whom is now very well known as a climate expert and journalist. George Monbiat Mumbio Mumbio for well. mayaybe on the third take of this pod. I'll get that one. And another He shall remain named the scientist because I forgot to annotate that he was sufficiently high profile to be on every single significant scientific board at the time of record I was really struck by Lord brag. D don't think it's la at the time His He argued playing deevil's advocate. Yeah. But that's what his role is. And you see this No, it is. I get that all the time where I'm interviewing somebody and even if I agree with them, I appear not to be agreeing with them because I have to put the other point of view. That's all he would have been doing Can you be sure? he kept saying, You bang on about this. he said Mumbat, you bang on about it in your articles? Yes I do. Look of Revelations. You're injecting a climate of fear, he said. making us scared. What twenty six years later Are you afraid No. People are afraid But people are afraid because they keep being told this is a younger generation. This is a Gen Z thing. Gen Z have grown up by being told by countless people like George Mombio that there is going to be climate armageddon within their lifetimes. It's Bllocks. Actually Ian, the rate of the change is much faster than even the worst scaremongering scientists had us believe. They were talking just a few years ago, including on this pod of a one point five global increase in temperature, one point five degrees. That was seen as something we could manage, but we had to scramble to a net zero to hold it at that theyg predicted that would occur between the years I was going to get you to guess, but you know because at the last p, twenty thirty to twenty fifty Instead, they've now revised those predictions. We are going to have temperature that is on average across the planet one point five degrees hotter before twenty twenty nine. That is what the most recent research suggests. That's terrifying in Well, it's terrifying because we've been told that it's terrifying. The fact is that many countries in the world, particularly in Asia, have existed with these temperatures for goodness knows how long? We're not used to it. So therefore we think it is terrifying and Armageddon is about to arrive But it if it is as terrifying as you say Um and the problem that All of the people like George Mumbo have got is that they have been If they've adopted the wrong tactics, what they should have done is instead of frightening people, they should have tried to persuade people. And you're shaking your head at that, which I find astonishing. because you cannot get if you're trying to persuade people to change their habits in the way they live their lives, what they eat, what they drink, what cars they drive and all the rest of it, fine, you can use a stick however long you like, but in the end, you need to introduce a bit too. And that's the problem here that there's been all stick and no carrot Many of us and myself included, have changed the way that we do things. How chang the way you do things? I eat less red meat. I drive an electric car, which if you'd told me that sort of five or six years ago, I wouldd have laughed in your face So because you' got a tax break under Isishi before he swivelled on the dates U it was partly because I could Yes, it was partly because of that. You're absolutely right. But that's what I mean. This is where the nudge theory of politics comes into practice. If you nudge people to do the right things and that can involve tax breaks thenen you see what the effect of that will be. And sure enough, the sales of electric cars started to rise Nowadays, I think part partly because of the war in Iran and the rise in diesel and petrol prices, there's been another push to electric cars. and the second market electric cars is massive now. Two years ago, you couldn't flog an electric car in the second hand market if you tried So there were all sorts of ways of trying to persuade people But in the end, individuals can change however much they like, but in the end, it's going to be government action that is the cucial thing here leadership and we in this country have shown brillant leadership in this across governments right from Tony Blair, well you could argue, actually going back to John Major when Kyoto started in nineteen ninety two. We have done more than any other European country on the environment, particularly on reducing carbon emissions. Only one other country in the EU has a better record than us in reducing carbon emissions since nineteen ninety. and that is way Sweden So we've got a good record there I think sometimes we need to blow our own trumpet a bit. We have the highest number of wind turbines in offhore wind turbines in the whole of Europe. I mean we are in Ireland, so that's not necessarily something that is a surprise, but we have a good record there How many people in the British electorate know these things that we have a good record on this? becausecause we keep being told by the Green I'll use the word salads we're terrible in this country because it buys into this whole narrative that this country is basically shit, that nothing works, that everything is going wrong, and therefore we are bad people. Well, on the environment, we are not bad people. We have a really, really good record and sometimes politicians should shout about it a bit more. we can own as an archipelago and a rich archipelago, we are unusually well placed to embrace green technologies, wind and w. And we have. Under previous governments, you're quite right. you remember David Cameron with the Green Tree Well we have embraced the let's give a little bit of credit here. And I know you never like to do this and no one else does either. Let's give a little credit to Boris Johnson because he was probably the greenest prime mininister we've ever had, partly because of his father and his wife putting a lot of pressure on him on these things So can you give me two tangible examples of how Boris improved the planet, other than his seven children, of course, who were all going to be Eco warriors. Well, I think the electric carfin came under came in under him, didn't it R let's talk about that because to be fair, you did scrape a win off me in the rehearsal. We I would say that wery sorry about the dop noise. John is returning from the gym. In fact, he might put in an appearance, I think Ces to walk up the stairs in a moment. J' calling this pod for so long now John's actually left, come back and he's returned as the Ironman. And he's swinging English fizzy wine under his arm. Big swinging dick. I would say, Ian and The political landscape proves this. We address the lowest hanging frood. We got rid of the coal fired gas stations, et ccetera. basically the sort of retro technology that clogged up the planet to cut to the quick politically, we've backslid recently in. and the Cervative government started it under Rishy Sunap because all we don't was we're going to move move the marker in the sand back when we But but they didn't. Compulsory electric vehicles. No. As we discovered, Curtisive Chat GTP, they didn't because they lost the election and the Labour Party reintroduced the line in the sandich in twenty thirty for phasing out petrol cars Yeah But the point here is that we were only able to do that because of Brexit because Europe has backslid. they've gone from twenty thirty to twenty thirty five And if we had still been members of the EU, we would have had to do that too because this was not a derogated power. this was not something where we could have vetoed it. We would have had to we would have lost the vote with I don't know which other countries voted against it. In fact, I can look it up if you really want me to So you have to admit that that is one benefit that you can point to of Brexit. You know, a war isn't won in a single battle. And it may well have been. Would you just admit that it's the benefit of Brexit? It is one battle won for Britain on the environmental front, but I would argue it is far more powerful for Britain to be part of a twenty eight country team. No that's a wider argument. On this issue It was a Brexit benefit to be able to do this, wasn't it in one battle. does not make a victory. But you admit that it was a Brexit benefit Yes is the word you're looking for. You're a fan of Kemmy and she loves Second World War analogy If you think about it Germany lost the Second World War, but they won many famous battles. It is one battle that we've taken the lead versus the EU, but I would say not even arguably, it was far more valuable for Britain to be in there market leading the Green Revolution, which is what developed countries like Europe need to be doing. Do you see how I called Europe a country there I did, yeah. It did not escape me. It isn't a country by the way. I know, but hey, people like you pedle the idea that it might become one there is a logic to it becoming one federal state. Yeah., I mean it's inevitable ever since the days of Chancellor Cole and Francois Mitturon The aim has been to create a United States of Europe And it will happen at one day. I don't actually think it will because of the geographical and the wealth disparity. By the way, I have looked up on Chat GPT, the countries that voted against moving. to twenty thirty five It might surprise you to know that Poland was one. Itesn't surprise me at all. They were probably at the time governed by that very right wing party. what's it called? They've you would have thought they would have wanted to move it back though, wouldn't you? Yeah, hang on a minute. so you're saying these are the countries was only wanted to embrace electric or they wanted to No, they wanted Poland was the only country to vote against moving the date back for mandatory electric vehicles from twenty thirty to twenty thirty five. Was you would have thought they would have been the first ones to agree to it. Bulgaria and Romania also abstained, twenty three other member States voted in favour. I'm confused by So that is a little odd, isn't it Yeah. Anyway. We need to interrogate that a little further. We can interrogate a Romanian ambassador over lunch. If We can indeed on the twenty second of July. The upshot of it all is Ian There has been a sea change in thinking. I think you can pin it to the first Trump administration, but not only since about twenty seventeen did he pull out of the Paris peace agreement. and it's become unfashionable to care about the climate People have too easily been berated for stating what isn't a belief but a fact And those of us who are genuinely afraid, and actually I don't feel so much afraid as a bit guilty. I see my daughter's little hot pink face at school and I think This isn't right. It isn't also right that so many schools are closing, that a thousand schools are closing. And I would argue the reason why so many schools have closed isn't just because Britain can't cope with the heat But because we've not embraced we were told was going to happen. If I listen back to that, in our time, the scientists sit there twenty six years ago and they say there'd be more floods There'll be more droughts, there'll be increased and longer heat waves. The poorest countries will be hardest hit, but we won't be exempt. And it's literally like tick And now look at our kids being sent home from school like it's COVID times because of the heat. She couldn't even do an art class, my daughter, because it was too hot in the room. Well, I just think it's ridiculous that schools cl I mean we've got to the point now in our country where school's closed before even a snowflake has dropped on the basis that, well it might snow, therefore we'll close the school. That did not happen until the last few years. And similarly, I see No reason why schools need to close at all. If they're in Victorian buildings, those buildings are quite well insulated against the heat. As you know, from your own house, which I bet your house is cooler than mine because your house was built in the eighteen thirties and mine was built in nineteen eighty five. I still think you're broadcasting from a basement because you look I'm on the ground floor Given that we've been podding for a long time now, you're not even pinging. Look, I haven't got any fans on. We have no air conditioning I mean, this room actually isn't as hot as I thought it might be, but the sitting room which is upstairs, as you will see on your visit on Saturday, that is roasting because it's got on one wall, it's basically all windows and then there's windows on two other walls too. So there we've got a fan going, an aircon going and they go all down Eicon, you see No, o just no just one little unit I know, but it ratches up your electricity bill. No, tell me about it. I can't afford it that the truth is that there is a disparity between the way in which climate change impact not just individuals different regions, but different countries. and we've known that. And one of the reasons why we haven't shuffled the deck to try and do all we can to stop it happening is because the richest countries know that they will be the least badly hit. And by the way, and this is a genuine question, do you think given how much energy these AI data centers are going to require Do you think that the tech bros are fiddling with the algorithms? Do you think one of the other reasons why climate change is so out of fashion or worrying about it so out of fashion is because they're in control of the algorithms? That's the theory that some of the teenagers are buying into. If you'd asked me that question a couple of years ago, I'd have probably said no. I wouldn't put it past Elon Musk. I don't think it's something that Ma would particularly do Um I mean, it is I am having two weeks off and spent quite a lot of time doom scrolling just for my entertainment. I am slightly concerned about the way these things work and that just because you happen to hover on a particular video for more than five seconds, then youve got a whole load of others similar to that. So people are getting a perverted sort of, I don't know what the word is, a perverted mix of things that come into their feeds I think it's's a mix, just all one note. Well it can be. I mean it's Puerto Rico song that I absolutely love Have you had that in your feed? Noan, because we're very different. No, I know. I mean I literally, every third or fourth video is somebody doing a dance to this Puerto Rico song to the extent that I said to Corey, when I'm back next week, I want to do one in the studio.ag just The funniest thing is Ian often sends me these Instagram and I'm always terrified to click on them because then I know that I will be infected with his algorithms on the subject of which we had a question because one of the reels that you kept on sending me or the type of reel was about these fucking English flags, okay that weren't allowed to be flown in pistal And somebody called Dino texted and he said, Dear Dr. Tessa, please can you tell Ian Has he ever heard of the algorithm behind Instagram? He keeps referring to Vals he seen on Instagram as justifications. Does he not realise why he keeps seeing things that back up his opinions? Thank I do understand that. I really do. Finally, it's taken two weeks. Can we just go before we go to a break because we're well overdue one, can we just go back to the point of heat because and schools? Because how do you think teachers in Malaysia or China or Zimbabwe or South Africa because they cope with the heat. But then again, sorry to go back to Instagram, I now keep seeing lots of Nigerians and people from hot countries saying, Oh, the heat in England is much hotter than in Nigeria. And they're say, it can be forty five degrees in Nigeria, but thirty five degrees in England is much hotter I can't see quite how they come to that conclusion, but there we go. some of that and the reason why this is a worse heat wave than the one in twenty twenty two is because of the humidity so that you get really hot and because there's a lot of moisture in the air, you'll sweat isn't removed from your skin eye it's not the natural cooling device that it should be because of the humidity. I don't know if that's the only reason. But why do they manage? Several reasons, I had Romanian friends over this week weren't surprised to hear, much more extreme climate, very hot summers. They were like, what's going on, guys? Wh are you making such a fuss They start their school holidays in June mostost Countries on the continent which are hot, include Romania, but not only also, for example, Italy go to school earlier in the day so their school day might start till two o'clock. Well we should be looking at these things. Yes, Can you imagine the education unions? if Bridget Philliipson stood up tomorrow and said, right, schools are going to start at eight o'clock every day. There would be a national strike before you say Jack Robinson You know the reason why we haven't been looking at these things y because Climate change was injected as a politicised debate into the public discourse with heft of doubt as we referred to the Lord Brag. He was just one example of many. Individuals that we revered as the fount of all knowledge, as a seasoned and reasonable individual, even David Atttenborough, who has subsequently won so many pludits for his work around climate change. He didn't acknowledge climate change existed until the late nineteen nineties, even Margaret Thatcher, your favorite chemist, was quicker off the mark than David Attenborough was. and yet he is somebody we now look up to as being a leader. fighting the climate Well, if you launch a campaign, Well, not even a campaign. If you just assume that people are going to buy your argument that this is happening because I say it's happening then don't be surprised if some people say, well, no, I don't believe it. Convince me. And they say, No, I don't need to convince you because it's a fact. I can tell you it's a fact. You need to take my word for it. People don't react well to that. This is exactly a replica of the Brexit debate where a lot of people who Brexit debate. No have no let me make my argument before you try Tim Troduce it People A lot of people in the Brexit debate were quite open minded about whether they were going to vote leave or remain Some of them, the reason they ended up voting leave was because they didn't like being told that other people knew better And that's what the Remaine campaign was all about. It was all about catastrophising. It was all about the fact that the economy was to there wass going to be five million unemployed or whatever after Brexit. And people thought,s that for a game of soldiers. You may say this, but you've given no argument for it to happen And that was a repeat of what happened about ten years previously on climate change. And I will remember this Back in two thousand six, doing a program on climate change on an internet TV station I was working on And we tried to persuade Greenpeace to come on as part of the debate and they refused to because they said, well, no, the arguments won. could say, No, no, it isn't There are lots of people who don't buy into this. and so you need to come on and explain to our viewers why the what the point of your argument is, but they still refuse to. And they still have that attitude, I'm afraid. A lot of people on that side, the moment you start to express any degree of slight skepticism about any aspect of this, they roll their eyes as if you're a fool. I would be the first to say that climate change does not suit democracy because actually There's some hard yards we've got to walk and it feels unpalatable and it feels unpopular politically. Look at the people Burnham is surrounding himself beside. Look at the fearmongering about the possible appointment of Ed Miliband In number eleven, o my goodness, apparently Britain were going to melt down all the bonds wouldn't and the gold would just dissolve and despair. I mean, because this is one of the few men who has consistently said no, we need to re rewire our economy and our energy supplies. And I don't disagree with that But you can't do it all at once. And the problem that he's got and the reason why people on the right of politics react so viscerally to him It's because they can see that he's approached it like a bull in a China shop, he's trying to do it all at once. And you have sometimes in politics you have to do slowly slowly catchy monkey. And what he's done and ordinary people can see this too, because we all know that our energy bills have rocketed up over the last five or six years. Now that's in part due to the war in Ukraine It's in part due to the war in Iran, absolutely, not denying that at all. But it's also in part due to the green levies that have been put on both by the Conservatives and Labour And I think we are at the point where consumers are starting to rebel against this because they look across the channel And they look at France and look at the energy prices in France which is vaguely similar economy to ours And they say, well, why are they paying thirty percent less than we are? Now there's quite a lot of research that some of it's about us paying for the infrastructure in our bills and the way in which costs are divid up nationally in other European countries. But people peoplee don't really care about the explanation. They just see that that our energy is the most expensive in the whole of Europe part from more. Hear that. and therefore They put two and two together and they think, well, if our energy is expensive and labour talk about re industrializing the North, well how are they going to attract businesses into the north, manufacturing businesses, heavy industry businesses if their energy costs are so high? It doesn't compete. And that's a Bvan's problem But I would suggest that if you gave Ed Millibband the Chancelly, he could look at it in a macro way, a bit like Chinese Autocrat And you could actuallyolute That's meant to that meant that's meant to convince me is it No, but so that the maths match the energy problem because at the moment you've got different thinking happening with the energy ministry and you've got a Chancellor who's bolted in to a rigid old school way of thinking. Obviously, we can't just eat tofu and hope for the best. We need to entirely rewire the way in which we acquire and pay for our energy. But the best bit about this debate is Ian, you've got through this new pod without mentioning why was it that grapes grew in Yorkshire in the thirteen hundreds? And I feel that my friends is prorograms Well, on that note, I mean I could go down that road if you want me to, but I think Bragg did it for you. I think Melvin, I think we've gone for twenty minutes or so withithout hearing from our sponsors Let's do a few questions. Sprinkle them in through your train of thought concerning your two favourite political women Bridget Phipson and Kemm Bagnor How do you work out that out? Let's on to that later. First the question Jonathan ion for the pod Given Badenoock compared Bridget Phillipson to the Gestapo, does A They'd not learn her manners and spend less time online B tests how close a labour's educational policyies to that of nineteen thirties Germany. See, Ian, next time you meet your mate, C, he's on the same track as me. I'm presuming he's talking about Kenmy here. Introduce her to the theory of Godwyin's law D, it worries me, I don't think labour have gone far enough on their attack on private schools. What does that make mean Wse than a Nazi? That makes you that makes you Hler No. Okay, rightight, let's start from the basics here I don't believe that it's a good thing for any politician to invoke Godwin's law, i. e. mentioning Hitler or I Thd Reich. I don't think it helps public discourse. So from that perspective, I can't actually I didn't notice that she did that. if he's referring to the exchange in PMQs, I must I didn't notice that. Let you know the PMQs where she accused Bridget Phillipson of being a spiteful class warrior apparently came off the back of a previous exchange, which I don't think was public where she accused her of being Gestapo because of this VAT on privateac. Right. OkayK. Well, let's stick to what happened in PMQs, where Kemy Badenock I we had in a sense, she had quite a tricky task this week Because she didn't go for the jugular with Kir Starmer. In fact, she was quite sympathetic to him in some ways But she did go for Bridget Philipson, she did go for Rachel Reeves And she called Bridget Phillipson a spiteful class warrior for imposing VOT on private schools Now I thought that's quite a good phrase. And then she went Randy Burnham and called him two eyelashes and a black t shirt, which I thought was quite good. And then did you see that video that Andy Burnham did in response to it. I thought this was quite funny. I wonder whether he would do this if he was Prime Minister. I hope he does in some ways. He just got his camera up to do like effectively a video selfie. And he goes, he looks down, goes It's stark blue actually And I just thought that was quite good. The timing there was excellent. So She was in very aggressive form in that PMQs. but mean she is the leader of the opposition. That's kind of what leaders of the opposition do. when they've got an open goal, they're going to try and score one And Rachel Reeves let me sh to go at her and Rachel Reeves did look a little bit upset by it, I have to say And I think what ried Kemy Ben oght to do this was a succession of interventions from labour MPs behind basically saying, we've done brilliantly in the government so far u then they would list a list of achievements and Kistamma did that as well thenen she quite understandably said, Well, hang on a minute, if things are going so well, why have you or got rid of voted to get rid of him And of course they then sort of started even more of a ruckus. That riled her up even more. So it was quite an aggressive thing But the way the reason this has become a story is because afterwards, Liz Kendall and Bridget Phillipson confronted Cammy in the corridor behind the speaker's chair and said, what are you doing this for? Why are you speaking like this And Keny said, Well, I have no regrets about saying what I did because I do regard you as a spiteful class warrior because you could have no other reason for putting VAT on private schools. You want to destroy them. So I'm not going to resve from that But the speaker, obviously, he intervened as well. although Thinking back, When it happened, I couldn't quite understand why he had intervened because he was saying we must need to watch our language What I think he was actually referring to. was the fact that she said like there's four hundred people have stabbed Kirst Stara with a knife in his back And I think that was what he was referring to. And also there was some dad's army reference They don't like it up He took That's right. Yeah. And his point I thought more broadly was a salient one, which is actually the coening discourse No, that's right. That is right. does politicians know favours? I don't think they don't like it up them. It's the worst thing a politician could say because you can see from the reaction of all the Labour MPs that she accurately described that in that phrase. I'mot sure how many people under the age of sixty would have actually understood it, but there we are Our attack of Rachel Reeves was the same one I leveveled at Rachel Reeves on the Jeremy Fint show actually And I thought it was a pertinent one. and then I got trolling from my progressive left saying, God, can't you just get in behind Anie Burnham, Tessa? I'm like not tribal guys. And I found it very distasteful, that great big selfie that all the MPs did. I know it's apparently the tradition win for a by election. No it isn't.ery raret It not The Labour Party have made it one by all accounts the last. I've never No, they haven't. I've never seen that happen before. That's what I was told live on television absolutely not Well they've had so few by election wins. We'd be forgiven forgetting if it was one of the ter ditions anyway. For those of you who missed the picture, and how could you have done because loads of MPs put it on their Instagrams and their socials. It was Andy Burnham, byy the way, deliberately pulling forward it felt like all these women to the front of the picture. is that because he's yet another labour leader. Burnham's babes. Yeah, and I actually somehow don't know how I did this because I've actually been getting on really well with her. she was helping me with my Romanian campaign. but I sort of had a minor contreant with them Stella Creasi. Be I then pinned it to my inster or something and I said, Oh, pick me, pick me. because it literally at school youard, Oh, Andy, Andy, we know we want to be in your team. please Andy. And it was so distasteful because just hours earlier, Kist Aarma had been Greeting as they say,'one crying outside number ten. and it just I fell was deeply inapppriate I thinkgnitive dissonance. For Rachel Reeves, I mean, she didn't even appear in Downing Street when Kir Stala was doing a speech. And then she appears at the front in that photo He you think really? Is that really well likely? I I ft uncomfortable about it. And then today she's even more desperate saying, o you knowre talking about qualities a Chancellor needs. Like she's already buried her own grave. She should just, you know fire a bit it was. Rachel Reeves, I think and this may come back to hau me, I don't think she stands a cat in hell's chance of staying in that job. I'd be very surprised if she stayed in the cabinet to be honest. And it is very interesting. We talked about this in the last episode about who Beram might have in his cabinet in different positions. And that is it's now typical of the way the Westminster media is operating. that is the main subject of discussion. It's not what does Andy Burnden believe in or anything, which ought to be the major subject of discussion, because none of us really know. and that's not an anti Burden thing to say. I think most people would agree with that. He's apparently going to make a big speech next week. He can't cover everything in one speech, but he's got to give us some idea of the direction of travel. What is going to change under him and what isn't? Do he regard the Labour manifesto as a sort of sacrilegious text or is he going to introduce quite a lot of new initiatives Your whole body language has relaxed. now you've got into the political thing. Yeah, because I'm talking about something I know about Yeah, I could climate makes you feel deeply uncomfortable and it's not the lack of air conditioning in yourre office. No doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. It just bores me rigid. I know. I just want to flag though that I care deeply about the environment and it's interesting that we've done more than a year of pods and we very rarely talk about the environment. And I just want to go back to that's one of the reasons why we don't have infrastructure in place in our hospitals and schools because it's been nudged off the agenda, because establishment, not only but mainly men don't like talking about it. O could I read a little message off the back of that man point I don't know who sent this because I didn't write down his name. He says every week Tessa, you go into bat for decency and fairness and every week you're accused of being mean Having a goat men going on about Brexit Nigel Farraage is good company. I would like to add to that like talking about the environment He ends his message, God help us God help us if a lot of our listeners reflect those views.though we won't talk about this now, we can do it in a future episode. But the sheen is starting to come off Nigel Farraage a bit, isn't it? You can just s of almost sense it You can't point to anything tangible in a way, I suppose the byialection you could But there's just, I think there's something going on They've come down to twenty two percent, I think in the last poll, alth they're three points ahead, the lowest they've ever been. and you have the Conservatives and Labour now above twenty percent, which hasn't happened for quite a long time. A sort of perfect storm of thingsings The Henry Nova f out and the tone he took around that, I think been more moderate end of reform, ambivalent Tory vote. didn't approve of the way that he not only looked like he was dog whistling people across the line of violence, but then refused to pull them back or apologize. or in any way shift his stance. And I think people don't like that. They don't I agree with you. give inflexibility. I think also all successful politicians They manage to appeal to their base, but they also manage to appeal to people outside their base. And Nigel Farage is very good at appealing to his base But I think he's lost the art of an It's interesting he did that sort of rather soft soap interview kind of desert Islandist thing with Nick Ferrari, and he's done one of a twoour of those recently, where he's trying to soften his image. and I think he does need to do that a little bit But this five million thing is still haunting him. I saw an interview he did with BBC Breakfast, I think the other day And he didn't do badly in it, but he was clearly irritated by the fact that the interviewer took basically went on at him on him, on at him for probably seven or eight minutes. And in the end, he said, you can talk about this as much as you like. I'm not going there anymore. I mean I'm not sure that's a good look It's not a great look and it looks too defensive and there was a flash of temper And that's never Good. Forgive me in in a man, in a live studio when I'm being interviewed by a woman Be the way it was clipped You know, you watch the full seven minutes. my algorithm just served it up in a left wing package. So I just got Nigel Farage losing his temper with this little harmless looking woman who clearly is needling. She did quite No she did quite well though. She did it very politely. He couldn't really have a go at her for the way it was asked. and I thought, well theyre actually good on. Anyway, look let's have a brief word about James Ponenell and then we'll finish with some questions after another break. James Pernell you said earlier off air that you didn't really know much about him he was he was elected at the same time as Andy Burnham to the House of Commons He they shared an office together. We got Blair and Brown vibes coming here, I think And they're obviously very good friends. Their constituencies were almost next door to each other And James Ponenell rose quicker than Andy Berham did initially, and he ended up being culture secretary And then in two thousand nine After the disastrous European election results for Labour, he quit on the night of the European elections I remember being on air, but at the moment he quit But nobody followed him or only a few people did And he then left Parliament in twenty ten and it ended up as some big Whig in the BBC sort of director of Stategy or something. and he now runs Flint Global which is a big lobbying company. which Jackie used to be a consultant to Um So if it all go if Addy Bernam doesn't give Jackie a job, she can get it. She can take over from James Jase Panella run that. U so that's his background He's an Arch Blairright Wh is what the left, the hard left, I don't mean mainstream media left. I mean, you know is it Nova media, whatever the are all yeah are all saying, o, he's a lobbyist for the Israeli government, etcetera. That's the kind of line that's being fed. And also he's on the sort of spin side of blairism. And remember the hard left can't stand there. They seem arguably as more of an enemy than a Fraage or a Badenol. Yeah. Absolutely. and that's always been the weakness of the left. they go after their own. P people who would self identify as being on the left and the right are becoming like that, going after people like me who self identifies on the right, and yet they think I'm some drippy liberal Democrat or something So you've got this on the extremes on both sides I think James Panneell is a very capable guy actually I think it's unfortunate that that appointment has been leaked because it does it just feeds into this whole thing of presumption. Now I get that if in seventeen days or twenty days or whatever it is that you think you're about to form a government. You've got to get your ducks in a row So those people who don't particularly like the way that Andy Burnham's done this, it sort of adds grp to their mill, doesn't it? Itmision of Conyism. and it's also I go back to the Slyard analogy, which is what I really took exception to as I tried to explain Stella It's just the more repugnant side of politics, where they look like they're climbing over the slippery pool. The fallout of political negligence is a school that isn't insulated or a hospital where the babies are dying. But meanwhile, we turn around and we just look at the chaos and these individuals all sort of grasping, like sort of hands in a mob trying to find their way blinking out of the darkness of the Starmmer era, into the bright light from the King of the North who trundled down like Henry theII to take over London and the South. But will he delegate some powers further north? Will he set up presumably at vast expense a number ten in the North? I do hope not because we'll pay for that Well, that would be performative, wouldn't it? Because though having said that, you've got the treasury having I think they've got off usices based in Darlington, and Glasgow, I think the foreign Office have outposts somewhere else otherther than London It's not unusual for government departments to have Prime Minister's office? I don't think so. I agree with you. But I know if I go on the radio next week and say I think it's outrageous that you us to spend like three million pounds or something creating an office of the Prime Minister in Manchester, I know exactly what the reaction will be. I agree with you. That would be utterly ridiculous We're going to do questions now because I've suddenly look at the time. I've got the school gate pending because you know we can't overrun, schools are very high and children need to. What time you've got to be there in the next few minutes So a couple of quick quizzies. You go for one because I've read out quite a I havent. Iven't got mine on screen yet, so you go first. And here's one for you and I don't know who it's from Here we are Once more, they're all very negative because they come off my Instagram algorithm, I think you and And that's why Once more, Ian plays willful ignorance Yes, No, it's more on lampposts. This never stopped, by the way. I've had so much about you banging on about lampposts. Yes, no one has ever banned anyone for putting flags on lampposts, but we've never had people putting up thousands of flags to protest and intimidate people of colour O stop clutching your pearls in moral I don't think it's me that's clutching my pearls. I think it's whoever you are Anyway, John Myhill on Twitter says Tessa's husband Title of podcast How the hell does he do it I think he was so disloyal. he'd probably agree with that You want to know that I've done a lot of horse trading because I could tell that Uncle Ian and Husby John wanted me to arrive with my Romanian partner just so that I could look like part of conventional multicultural England.. And also I thought it would be preferable to share the journey to Tunbridge Wellales, the wilderness that is. to visit Ian at home with my beloved spouse. So I started laying the groundwork And I'm building to a crescendo As soon as I thought he'd basically said no, and Taty, my agent said, Tan's never going to go, Tessa. Just tellian, Bite the bullet. Tellian's not going to come. I put on the WhatsApp group, really sorry. It looks like I can't take responsibility for my husband's bad manners, but He's not coming. And I went downstairs and I said to Dan, I've told Ian you're not coming. And I just want you to know that if it had been an equivalent and the tables had been turned, I would have turned up to your work do and I am really hurt And he took his headphones off, which is very rare in our marriage. And he went, what are you talking about? I never said I wouldn't come And I would Does that mean you are coming to the barbecue at Priory Farm in Tunumbridgew? Don't give my address away cut that Cy and join in as a violin. and he said Yes I am coming and that's how contrary is. contontrary is Because I served him and no. Well he's He's learnted at your feet then, hasn't he Anyway She be married. Okay. Your friend, Brian Sage has another email. Oh, not Brian again Hemmy was magnificent at PNQ's, ammazing that Starmer had to read from his briefing notes to provide congratory. Cgratulatory comments on Phillipson and Reeves, the not so memorable duo and of course a delicious jibe at the loyalty of Milliband Well actually, that was quite good. In a leadership bid, even stabbed his brother in the back. Did you see that bid Well I know she made a jibe at Miliban basically saying and of course he's quite used to basically betraying those clothes to him I was busy looking for the next question and I did see it and I did think it was quite clever and personally because David was the better looking more polished version of Ed Miliband and therefore I place Ed Milliliband in the direct firing line of being somehow weirdly irresponsibly responsible for Brexit. I've never forgiven him for doing what a Persian sack trap would have done. and yeah, knife his brother So I did hear and see it and I approved of that. Anyway, Brian does have a question How is it that a resigned prime Mister may answer on behalf of the government from which he is resigned Well, you've misunderstood that, Brian, because he hasn't resigned as Prime Minister. He's resigned as leader of the Labour Party, and he will resign as prime Minister when the new labour leader has been officially picked. so that will presumably be on july seventeenth. PS, if Ian laughed at every one of the Doctor's mispronunciations, the pod would be would sound like that laughing policeman record Thankks Brian. Cut that bit, Corory. me f C. You you know what you can do? You can insert the laughing policeman at that point. is from Leayton He did send me a really long thing on your football team I'm not reading that one out. He then adds to the football narrative though, talking about domestic violence He says, you could mention to Ian that the incident rate goes up when England win as well as when they lose though by not as much. And this man is a mathematician, so he's sent me a sort of statistical eo twenty twenty four sheet on male violence. He then adds, implication would be that we shouldn't have any international football tournaments because men, women, whether they win or lose. but then he adds, Bet solution would be no domestic violence, of course Well, that would be a big solution, wouldn't it But unfortunately, human beings don't react in the way that they should do all the time And let's also remember that domestic violence is female on male as well as male female. It is. It is. A quarter of all incidents are female on male And it happens in gay. It happens in gay relationships too I'm which what? But if you're gay, it can't be female or male. No, it'll be female or female or male or male There' a lot of it about I accidentally smiled then while you were talking about violence against women and I realized that I was like that female reform MpP, Sarah Pontchin. Do you remember who she was accused No you see she was actually she was actually trying to do a good thing by doing that little video, pointing out the fact that whenever there is an international football match that domestic violence increases, but at a less rate when England wins. So she sort of said, I hope England win. And yet she was absolutely introduced for it just because she represents reform, which I thought was very unfair. And also she has a weird, permanent resting smug face, which ts up into a smile justust fineally because I know you've got to go. This is from my sixth cousin, Fiona who says Um been recommending where politics meets history to my worldlier pupils who wanted a podcast with more disagreement and debate than the rest is politics. It helps that Tessas What's that? Strath Strathhalian. No Strath All. to the pod. I just corrected the way Ian says something. She Shees because I haven't got my glasses on. She seems to be a bit of a role model for the older gals Well, I think you went to speaker that school, didn't you recently I did. Does your sixth cousin teach at Stathalen? Yes. she's head of history, I think And I'm actually going to do on my final night in Edinburgh in August. her husband organizes a speaking thing in the town of Dollar So I'm going to go and do a little talk at Dollar Um, Pal's a really interesting case of how only the stronger survive because there's a sort of Charles Darwinism happening at the moment among private schools because there's a slump in pupil numbers and also there's this taxation from the spiteful class warrior. And so a lot of them are closing, but Stath has just somehow supercharged and it's cannibalised loads of the other ones. It's kind of consumed k grassed in the nearest girls school. becausecause hands up here I went to a state school t I was fifteen and then I went to Streathalen, which is a big Oh you actually went there. Day school now. Yeah, went there. Oh right, I didn't know that. All right. went there for two years. And finally, I'm going to Ian's in case you haven't gathered with my husband in case you haven't gathered This Saturday, when we're going to be drinking English very expensive insert here wine in case you haven't gathered. And the reason is because and only the Murdoch press could find it as a celebration, climate change and a heat wave means that we now grow better fizz wine than the champagne region of France and apparently politicians now in England In England Green and P Now I've got to go and mow the grass. actuallyually I don't think I'm going to because I'm not sure the mower is fixed because it's about two feet tall at the moment we'll see if that is done before you're trying for a rubber. You're not veggies or anything, are you Oh no, I can eat any sort of meat. I'm going to roll in your lawn like Tsa May Lady Shattle' lover. Perhaps I' convert Jo. It's not chatterly, it's chatterly. Oh fuck off you shitty Bye Where politics meets history at global dot comot shouldould you wish to send us a question for the next episode? And then of course, you are on your cruise next week, aren't you We' recording on Sunday so we can have a post barbecue debrief. Gone fun one on. You can drop in as you only one for rec not recording this pod. You only one forever on this And don't forget preordder your copy ofics not my pololitics meets history of haveave I se too much out on the fifteenth of July I'm apparently going to be a major feature interviewer in the Guardian, can you believe? Anyway, on that note, goodbye. This has been a global production