Danish Whiskey and History

It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul and Richard are here. We have lots to talk about. Paul's watched every video from the Microsoft film conference last week. He watched the Apple conference videos three times and there's some big news for Xbox Boy, and the biggest patch Tuesday ever lots to talk about next on Windows Weekly . Podcasts you love from people you trust This is twelve . This is Windows Weekly with Paul Farad and Richard Campbell, episode nine hundred eighty seven recorded recorded Wednesday, june tenth, twenty twenty six selflothing dot md . It's time for Windows Weekly. Hello, all you winners and dosers. Welcome. This is the show we talk about latest. The news from Microsoft with these guys right here. Paul Throut with his new glasses. I like those spectacles you're wearing. They have cameras and music in them and all you know, I used to be able to dunk a basketball, but I gotta tell you, the thing I hate the most about getting old is I can't see anything anymore and I'm really tired of it. It's annoying . I'm looking at the screw on the bottom of a laptop, and I'm like, Is that a torque screw or a Phillips? I don't know.. Oh, that's ridiculous No one should be able to see that. That's too small. It's the mechanical equivalent of one point type. , Richard Campbell, who is also spectacle clad from Art. You're in Copenhagen again, yes. Still in Copenhagen, haven't left two weeks. Nice. Podcasts besides Windows weekly include runas radio. Net Rock you find those runas radio. com. Paul Rock Asylum over there, what are you doing? I know . is What it? Can you hear it? No, no, I mean no, I meant you Copenhagen He's trying to dain it up. You stay in the Medonian embassy . I've met four conferences in two weeks. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what ? Copenhagen's great. Copenhagen is great. And actually our IT guy, Russell, who was visiting Copenhag en, same time as you last week, then went to Grindelwald, which sounds like something out of Harry Potter, but actually is it. It was just Russell's birthday, wasn't it? It may be. Anyway, he loved Grindelwald. He said I spent too much time in Copenhagen. This is great . I don't know. I mean, Copenhagen is the big city. It's the city of Denmark is much smaller. I have been to Arhus . Arhus , which I think is where Legoland is . I thought Legoland was in Pennsylvania. Well, the original Lego Land was invented in Lego's a Danish invention. So the original because they like sharp things to hurt your feet when you walk in them smart It was a little scary. I went with my son who was about nine or ten at the time and they had a giant robot hand . It was a ride. So you'd sit in the seats. The hand was that big. There's three people sitting in the hand . And before you get in, you can program it to whatever movements it's going to do with you inside the hand . And I said to my nine year old, be nice, be gentle and he did not . It was really Henry's revenge that was so much fun. Actually, I really enjoyed it. It was like, wow . Enough of that frivolity . Microsoft's patch Tuesday was yesterday. Yeah, but we're not gonna talk , are we? Is that the first one? We could talk about that later, but it wasn't the other one. I'm like , suspicion is it has something to do with mythology. Suspicion is correct. Yeah . And we'll talk about that in a little bit . Yesterday , the home, your home version , my first mythos came out called Fable. My first mythos my first for dummies. Mythos were dummies . And I've been playing with it , I got in the middle of the night to play with it some more because I have limited time we all do Phrasing Leo, phrasing . So I don't like it. You three included us. Okay , but okay . And then there was Build last weekend. Did you did you both like you didn't go to build, but you watched all the sessions probably, right? You don't have to go anymore. Yeah, I mean if it was in Seattle, I might've gone in San Francisco, you don't like us down here? No, it's not that. It's just that there are so many people who live there and it just would have made more sense for me, but it yeah, I didn't go. But I can understand now that it's over why they were pushing for me to go because you know, I've been going, but this year it was kind of more of a limited capacity or whatever. They didn't invite basically invite only . Yeah . But there was a lot of Windows news and surface news, like we talked about last week. So that was interesting. But of course, and then this week was WWDC or still is WWDC. And between the two and Google IO as well . It's there's been this just crazy amount of not just the developer stuff which is normal, right? But also, you know, AI agents and vibe coding and stuff like that. So there's a lot of that that is kind of, I don't know, I've been obsessing over a little bit, I guess, but it will definitely be part of the show in a big way too. But I'll just start off with the build stuff because after the show ended last week, I pulled down a bunch of session videos to watch . And I watched I probably watched all of them actually. I watched a bunch of I watched a couple of them twice . And not just key notes, so no, no, I mean like actual session videos there's a lot of interesting stuff and I'm not going to get to all of it today nor did I write about all of it over the weekend, but I did write about some of it. The first thing I wanted to mention was last, I think it was last week or the week before, but I had asked Richard and figuring if anyone knew it would be him, but whether he had heard of that reactor tool that might or reactor , whatever it is, not really a tool, but I don't know, it's like an add on for the Windows app SDK essentially or she sharp, whatever that lets you program Winnie apps in a reactive type model, like a declarative model without Xamal, right? Optionally. I mean, obviously you can see Xamal . I didn't know what it was at the time. I don't think anyone really did, but there was a Chris Anderson session at on this topic, which I've actually watched that one four times , which is fascinating to me. And it's interesting to see people who matter paying attention to Windows App as DPK or as we're just going to call it, I guess win UI because it matters, you know, and it's it's even calling it like a B team doesn't even describe how like out in the woods this thing has been . And there have been all these little things like last fall, we heard a bunch of stuff like oh yeah , we're going to listen to people and get stuff going and then the person who was running that left and you know nothing seems to happen with it. So I was happy to see Chris Anderson. But I also don't remember if I talked about this as part of the show, but they had announced that vibe coding tool, which is a CLI that is built on a CLI , which allows you to describe the app that you want and it creates a, you know, when UI app, a Windows app ST AP. And I like this style of thing. Apple's doing the same thing. And actually Google is too, by the way, where you essentially , well, not essentially literally using plugin s, which are just kind of like markdown read me files that describe what the thing is going to do . Ground information backlog that this thing has in the documentation for the written language and framework and all this stuff and not on the web. And it's not going to go up to stack overflow and confuse WPF code or whatever . And my experience with that has been very positive. The Microsoft Vibe coding stuff is, like I said, command line based, but it creates a visual studio project so you can pull it into the GOI and do all the debugging and everything else you want to do with that . And that's great. But it's also it's not like what I would call a consumer feature, right? I mean no normal human breeding is ever going to download these CLIs using Windget and you know figure out how this stuff gets together. But having spent the time to do that, you can see where it's going to get better. I was actually really impressed by that . So that's kind of interesting . But I also in going through all the sessions that I went over , which fall into a couple of different categories, I guess. They were, you know, Microsoft talked about the Windows App development stuff, which is what I just mentioned, that or at least some of it . Just kind of general productivity for developer type things, which they've been talking about for years . You know, we've done this at various builds where they've announced things like the Dev environment, the premise of WSL, you know, blah blah blah, whatever. And there was a lot more of that. So that 's the type of thing for me that from Microsoft seems to happen one time and then drop off the face of the Earth. And it's kind of nice to see them going at that . But obviously, and this is super obvious. You just have to know you have to be awake to understand this. The big focus at this show is Agenic AI, which Microsoft has been talking about for two years, but is finally now delivering in meaningful ways. You know, not just for developers, but I would say developers are always the tip of the spear, right? So you see a lot of that there. And this notion of using Agenic AI to aid in software development is, you know, that's the, you know, that's the beginning of this stuff, right? And then productivity will kind of move on from there. And there was a lot of that as you would expect. And we, you know, like I said, not surprising . But in going through this, it wasn't so much that there was like this theme that kind of emerged per se , but I do I do feel like I'm getting like gaining an understanding of why Microsoft is making a public point of improving Windows eleven this year, right? That I had sort of speculated in the past like some giant enterprise customer or some group of enterprise customers must have come to them and said, Guys, you gotta stop screwing up windows update. Like this is getting stupid. Like this needs to be better. And I'm sure that was part of it. But actually, if you think about intent, right? What is Microsoft really doing in this case? And what is the overall strategy of the company in the same way that it used to be all about cloud computing, which didn't make a lot of sense for Windows and then came into AI, which makes sense on some level for Windows. And now to Agenic AI, which , you know, this is their platform. So like Apple and Google, they're going to do these things they're going to do to make agents make sense on Windows . And I think this is actually why they're improving Windows because that foundation has to actually work and make sense for anyone to even consider or developing with agents on Windows, right? I mean, Windows itself has to has to be solid for this to work. Can't be crashing while it's waiting for an agent to complete the task. Right. So I think that is actually it. This is where the broader aim of Microsoft kind of aligns with the needs of the users of Windows, which is kind of a nice coincidence and it kind of is a coincidence, but whatever, who cares? Like we'll take it. So we're getting to this place where it's like Windows, we're making it better, but not for a good reason. Yeah, or I would say we're making it better, but not for you . Yeah. No, anyway, we hear your complaints. We don't care. Yeah. But we're going to make a show of caring and they are doing that Yeah, and we really need to sell you more stuff. So we need a platform to sell it. Yeah . The other thing, and this is tied to that is, you know, we talk about AI in general, LLM's up in the cloud, how expensive all it is. This year has seen the move to usage based payments or paying for that stuff , which has escalated the cost on the people using AI dramatically . But it's been, you knowic,ro Msoft, Google, whoever has been basically subsidizing us to date. And we're starting to see that kind of true cost of AI. We have been talking about local AI as well for years, but also with the caveat that it's never going to be as good and it's, you know , the early stuff that Microsoft put into like Copilot Plus PCs, for example, where you use like paint to make a little stupid kid's drawing and it turns it into an image of some kind . You know, it's like it's okay. It's not as interesting or as good as the stuff you see up in the cloud, but it gets better over time, right? And so there are things like click to do or super resolution, which is kind of amazing . You can take an image like a low resolution scan youn tooedk a photo like a million years ago and scale it up to four k looks awesome. Like there's the local AI stuff is getting better . You know, Copilot plus PC is a brand. I don't think that has really resonated with anybody . There is no killer app for this functionality, which kind of makes it a hard sell . If you own one of these PCs and you run a normal collection of whatever apps, especially if they're on the creator end , you may have some little benefits that are happening here but you'll never know. There's no gleam that pops up and says, Hey, this is happening. This is awesome. Congratulations. Before you get into a DGX spark or something, like actually grabbing a high performance machine on your head. Yes. So we probably talked about this a little last week. There are a lot of questions about what happens to CoPilot plus PC because of this NVIDIA hardware, right? Microsoft is not saying they did not promote co pilot plus BC as part of that announcement, they have since confirmed these things are co pilot plus BC. So for the short term and maybe they're just saying this now because they don't want to reveal what they're going to do. They're still moving ahead with this brand . But you know, does the broader expanding the definition of a co pilot PC? And we'll see. I mean one of the, I mean, look, I've often sort of believed and said that at some point this thing disappears because all PCs are copil plus PCs or the spec raises, you know, and becomes more stringent and then you need that way. Eventually every PC had a GPU of some kind. It may not have been good, but everybody had one. Right, right. But the needs of local AI are such that Microsoft expanding the spec or removing it so that we can do those things with whatever resources we have on the device, like the CPUPU G or MPU, right, is the right thing to do. I think we talked about this last week. They've adapted or are adapting the Windows AI APIs to support that across some number of those APIs where I think Textas speech was one . I don't remember the list, but where these used to require an MPU of a certain co pilot plus PC style, but now you can I don't remember exactly their different for each JP, butI let's say in this case you can do, it against the CPU and or the GPU, you know, and that opens it up to more people, right? Because there's a chicken and egg problem here too, right? There's a lot that kind of goes into this. And you know, I think we would have talked about Steve Abatiche in his little well he did a nice appearance in the in the keynote and . Yeah, and talked about this kind of slightly far out, you know, project where it 's going to be like an Android ASP based hardware and some, you know, OS in the cloud sort of a thing or distributed OS, however you want to say that. They didn't say it that way, but whatever . So there's a lot going on, but again, you know, like making windows make sense for developers and making windows maybe even the best place to be. If you're doing anything related to AI obviously makes sense to whatever degree. Getting to a point where there is what we would have we've been calling hybrid AI makes sense. And hybrid AI I think until this past week in my brain was you're running something local SLM , it reaches some point where it can't do something and then maybe there's a handoff through an orchestrator and this is something you as the user would okay or configure where it goes off to the cloud and the cloud does the thing. And then the opposite's true too. You could start something in the cloud. And again, this would be like an orchestrated based thing , where it's like, you know, we can do this in the cloud, but you don't need our best model . Maybe but we can see you have a local model that's perfectly acceptable. Save you money to do it. Let's just do it that's free. This is the unmetered AI thing, right? Yeah . Well, so just you get a sense of performance, right? Like the Copilot PC spec was what? forty tops ? Yeah . And a DGX spark is a thousand tops. I know, I know. It was a big deal tool. Like, yeah. No, right. I know. It's crazy. Like this is look, that's the thing I just wrote today, which we're going to talk about much later in the show, but the speed at which AI improves and evolves, however you want to say that is astonishing. We keep talking about that, but that's a great example of what that means in real world terms. We made this spec and it was forty tops and that's some measure of performance on an MPU local hardware accelerated AI workloads , whatever you want to call that . It is impressive that two years later Snapdragon X two doubles that essentially eighty or eighty five, right, depending on the MPU. We have AMD and Intel MP's that I think are in the fifty , you know, tops range, right that exceed that initial spec, nice. But then like you said, NVIDIA comes along and you're like, oh, this is just blowing this out of the water. Not that that should surprise anybody. We already have the GPUs, you know. Yeah, and it's a five thousand dollar machine. Like, yeah, you could nobody you could you could just drop three grand on an NVL seventy two, you know, no, of course. But you have this but now we've established Yeah. It's not a baseline, it's kind of the top of the line, but the spectrum of capabilities, the spectrum of I don't know, performance or whatever you want to call that has gotten so much broader now, you know . And so something's going to change. We don't know what that is because Microsoft has not said, but I am starting to think that hybrid AI , well, I'm starting to think it's because they were sort of saying this. So for example, when you think local no, I'm sorry, they introduce the term local AI agents. These are agents that run on your device against AI on your device . They're also They also introduced something called subagents, which also I will say Apple used this term this week. And I'm sure Google talks about subagents . And then there's something I'm going to call hybrid agents, although I don't believe anyone's used this term, which are agents that can work with cloud and or local AI depending on the situation, right ? This is this is kind of a new level here, right? We have giant LL Ms in the cloud that are kind of do everything models, like the stuff that Open Eye has been making anthropic and Microsoft has been trying to make , but we have specialized LLMs as well. They're really good at certain things . And then of course we have these local model s that are specifically designed for very specific things. So there's more of a range, right? It's not just local cloud. It's like a range of capabilities on both ends. And then we have agents, which are the same thing. They're local and cloud, but there's also the ones that cross over. And so I think this makes that orchestrator thing I keep wanting to bring up all the more important, and that's the role that Windows can play, right ? When you're a developer and you write to a Windows AI API two years ago when we called it something different, the co pilot runtime or whatever the heck it was . You were specifically targeting a certain kind of chip and it had to be there for this thing to work. And the way that these things are starting to work is the way they should have always worked, which is it just assesses what's on your computer and does the right thing . It's orchestration, right ? And I think that , you know, like the NVIDIA models support or the NVIDIA chips, rather, support local models with up to a trillion parameters. It's like these numbers don't even make sense. It's like a data center that sits in your lap. You know? Yeah, hopefully doesn't burn a hole through your leg. But I mean, we've been calling our smart phones the supercomputer you're putting in your pocket for a while like because it's true . You just have that much compute these days. In the calm size side of this, we've definitely had conversations now where it's like as a piece of software matures you get a version or two in . You know, the constraints of the developed software mean the model can be simpler . So you can imagine initial development on a project might use a cloud based model and I hate the term frontier because please save. Same , right? Yes. Every two weeks you're asked to be a new term, you know? Oh, sure. Anything to make you spend more money. But once you get to a certain level of maturity where you know the architecture, you know the platforms you're depending on and so forth, like the model just does not need to be that big . So I think we got to get better at pruning at basically saying, hey, what don't I need in this to be able to be effective answering questions around this particular product? Like I have to wonder if we walk into a place where you'll literally have a tuning set, some kind of MCP or some kind of skillset specific to your application so the model can look at that and go, oh no I can handle that. What do you need? Yeah, this is a great so that's this ties into the thing I'm trying I'm struggling to explain in a good way, but it's basically you know, think about a chat bot of, you know, the type we would have used over the past two to three years where you get this interface, we type text in and there's always like this dropdown where you choose a model. And like people you're not qualified to select those models. You do , what are you doing? Like, that's a stupid thing to have you know n't answer. Yeah, look , there are going to be issues with regards to like maybe the cost of it or whatever where you might have to put up a prompt and say, hey look, this thing will run best or only on this model, but it's going to be expensive compared to the other thing which may be free and cheap or whatever. Like there has to be that part of it. But this increasingly, again, I keep coming back to this chart. It's really about orchestration and orchestration at an incredible level because it is what you just said and it is the things I was talking about kind of combined, which is like you have all these different capabilities exposed to all these different models that are in different places that are good for certain things and you as a person, you as the developer even shouldn't be can picking the one thing. It should just do this for you. This is a thing that SDKs or frameworks or whatever you want to call them should do for developers. It's a thing that the operating system should do for apps and services and whatever else. It should be automatic . And I feel like that's what is happening. Bound to be tools better at choosing than you. Like the imp erson and me invariably asks someone when they talk about how great the tool they're using right now is like, why is that one great? Like what about the previous version? Like what did you get? Was it just because it was point one bigger? Like is that why it's better? Like what's the real measure of you can hear your given problem? You can do a point in time comparison of anything to anything easily . The problem with AI again is because it moves so quickly. The thing that was best at something two seconds ago may not be the best thing four seconds from now . And this is why you need this to happen dynamically on your behalf because you could research this and do a lot of work and experiment and be like, Yep, no, I found it. This is the best thing for this thing. But then a day goes by and now it is not. But you don't know because you've stopped thinking about it. And this is this is, you know, the role an operating system plays. Like we don't, you know, we don't manage the memory manually. We don't miss right. I would also I'm going to push back on the movie super fast because when I actually like keep notes month over month on this, we're not actually changing any faster than anything else. These versions not coming out that quickly. The really insidious thing that it supports your argument more than anything is like GPT five over the past few months has changed without changing the version number . Right, right, which is far more concerned. It's another crazy . Yes. Yeah. So in that case, you know , you could see that as a special case, but actually I think that's going to be the norm going forward in many cases too, right? That we have this thing. We can just make it better. We don't have to rev it. We don't have to eventually put it out the well we are putting the old version of the same thing over to pasture, but we're going to not just move on to the next thing and keep that thing there. We're going to actually replace it with something that's a little bit better but is the same thing essentially. So it works with all the APIs and whatever developers are doing. Yeah, it's this world is insane . And I think it's just the companies that are insane yes. Well, I think there's two different audiences for this. Because for instance, what Apple announced at WWDC on Monday , yeah, they don't, you know, you don't choose really much of the model. It just kind of does its thing. You can, I guess. And there may be some well, so we're going to talk about that because Apple , you know, Apple but for real what I,'m saying is for real people like Normis , they just want it to work . Right, right. That's what you're saying. But then there's people like me. I mean all right , a drop down menu that I can say I can choose from two hundred different models. But you shouldn't. I mean, but even that silly that's wrong. No, I should. No, no, you're wrong. No, you shouldn't. This tells us how no, this tells us how immature this is this is this is when okay, but when cars first arrived , you had to be a mechanic to own a vehicle. There was no way around it and that's what this is. When you when the first cars you had to manually shift the transmission into different gears with your arm or your foot or some combination of the two because it couldn't do it itself, but then it could, you know. And just like there are people who are like, oh no, I'm never going to give up a stick shift. You've obviously never sat in traffic on a hill, but you know, there and people are like, I'm never going to give up driving a car because we're going to have self driving cars, whatever. Like there's always people that cling to that stuff, but ultimately, like this is the role of I'm going to I keep calling it an orchestrator, but you know, on the fly, like whatever it is you're asking it, no matter what it is you're doing , it should just do the best thing for that thing at that moment, no matter what it is. That's for everybody, for every audience, right? Yeah. What Apple, what mine does, for instance, right now I'm running a local model because it's free and cheap and private and it's good for the kind of stuff I want to do. And then if I do coding, but see, I've set it up. Once a week, it does benchmarking, it goes out, it takes a look at new models, benchmarks, looks at what others are saying and chooses models. And it has a delegator for a variety. So for images , as you say, you want to use nano banana. You don't want to use anything else. Well, I want to be able to choose. I mean, okay, I'm sorry to interrupt but the image one is interesting because I think it was Microsoft that said this one. Microsoft AI had come out with some preliminary AI , you know, MAI image, whatever one point zero something. And then there was a flash version. They were talking about there being these kind of workflows within businesses where for the internal work when you're making prototypes of some ad campaign or something that you're going to pass around via email , use the quick one where it's not going to be super good. But then when it's time to go to print or you know not print, but wherever you go into production, you've got to use the really nice one because that would be photographic quality. And it, you know, yeah, I in these early days we're going to just if you're going to do that, you probably just choose that yourself. But you know, in the end , I mean for this, to make sense for everybody , it I feel like this just has to happen , but we just we have to, you know, we need that infrastructure for that to even make sense . Plus, God help us, it's got to slow down a little bit. Well, that' ands why Perplexity did so well early on because that's all they did. They didn't make models, they just chose models and they chose presumably appropriately. In fact, the default is best model . Right. Well, I mean, you can make as a platform maker, like Microsoft, you know, makes these features in paint and photos and where else in Windows that do things, right? And so they have individual small language models that are tuned specifically for whatever that task is. And whatever, you don't get a choice. It's using that one thing. And it is not looking for anything better. It's just doing that one thing. It's all it does. And that's fine. I mean, that's fine for that kind of a task. But you know, at some point, especially given the way costs are and everything, you almost need like a it's essentially like a set of rules of sorts. Like if you get in the car and you get Google Maps going somewhere and you haven't touched any settings , it will probably do something where it saves you gas over getting you there the quickest , which is not what I want, you know? But I can go into the settings and say, No, no, no. And the thing you're talking about or in any AI where it's like, look , I want you to always go local first . And here are the conditions where you could go to the cloud where it's going to maybe it's going to cost me money or something or you're paying per month for something so you should use that. But if it's going to exceed your monthly allotment or something, it should be able to tell you that somehow and you know our audience and certainly are do it yourself type people who do want more control. I understand normal people don't care and shouldn't have to care. And you're right an automatic transmission may do a better job of shifting up than a man . Although an expert says, well, no, but I can do it better manually . I like the control and but I work with the agent to choose the models. I'm not doing it all by myself. And I set parameters because for instance , I'm going to care about cost less than privacy. You know, there's certain rules that I might tell. That's what an orchestrator that doesn't know me won't necessarily know what to choose or well choose for profit. The orchestrator is going to know you Leo. That's the , but I don't trust these big companies. They're going to always opt for their profit, not my interests, right? So yeah, I mean, that's a by the way, that's I want to defend myself. No, no, I'm not I'm not saying I don't trust necessarily these big guys to tell me what to do. I've never heard of anyone not trusting big tech legal, but let me just say no , no, of course. I mean, that's part that is part of the conversation. If anything, it's even more important with AI in some ways than in other areas of technology. But that's part of it. I mean, that is part of it, right? If you're going to do something like run local open source AI semi exclusively, but occasionally it can go do something with whatever model in the cloud. You're going to want to have some say over that, right? Obviously you don't want it to just do that. And that but that would be part of that I think that's the point. I think it I think these needs to become more sophisticated. I think I think we are going to get there . I love it that I'm able to now use a local model and it's but I have to know what it's going to be good for or not good for. I still have to have some. So this is tied to the thing I want to talk about when we get to the AI section, but there one of the sections this isn't the AI section. I'm sorry. No, I just did this up. I put this up front because I felt like this was a bigger deal than Patch Tuesday. But and it's this part of it is about Windows. But watching those build videos, there's a secession, I guess, it's kind of an odd one because Scott Hansman and Mark Vizenovich are sitting in the audience for some reason . But it's basically it's sort of like an episode of their podcast. And it's the Scott Markler and whatever it is. And what they're basically the conclusion of this thing, I found myself in the awkward position of completely disagree ing with to the point where I had to watch it again to be sure that I , you know, and I understand what they're doing. But their point was people are vibe coding and that's cute. You know, it's great. It works good for little personal apps, these things we talk about, right? But if you're going to create apps that run at scale that are going to be supported by an organization or a company or whatever it is , you need people who are experienced developers that have to know the code blah blah blah how things work. And anyone who hears that is going to nod their head and be like, yep, one hundred percent . And the more I think about it, the more I'm like, Nope, you're wrong. You're right today , but there are a lot of there are two weeks like Uncle Bob Martin who say, I don't look at the code anymore. Okay, thank you. I was gonna say that that's actually ludicrous. You know, like I mean , it makes sense today . It is some guy in my in the comments on my site made this point, he says, you know, he goes, I was pushing back against this like a lot of people. But then I suddenly realized this is like when they moved exchange to the cloud and all the exchange guys were like,, no No, no, no , no. And I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. Your company does not exist to host an email infrastructure. Why would you why would you do that? That's insanity. But that's what keynote, your job was not to write code. Your job was to solve problems for customers. You said that a couple of weeks ago is the smartest thing I've ever heard in so many ways because it's so succinct and correct. And you get caught up in this thing. In the case of exchange administrators, they got caught up in every second version, I'm going to do an upgrade . That's all they did. And they stopped learning and they stop, you know, they're not making decisions that are the best decisions for the company anymore. They're making decisions that protect their job , you know , and they see their job in a very different way. It's the person that's got ten, twelve years in all on the same stack. That's the one that's terrified. You know, the old guys that have gone through two or three stack changes like, well, here we go again . Right now the new folks who are just trying to figure out their first stack go I like this one better. Like they don't have a problem but because of the window we're in, you know, if you made that move to the cloud, that was your last big change but I literally had a guy asked me point blank, you mean to tell me that my last act as exchange administrator is going to be the handover the keys to this kingdom to Microsoft. And I was like, yeah, that is what I'm telling you . You needed to learn more about you had to get to that. We had to get to that point, right? I mean, it wasn't that way in the beginning . Well, but there are some interesting parallels here, right? I mean, there was a lot of pushback from these people who are protecting their careers, which is completely understandable. But you know, I look at this like as a writer , I am not going to use AI to write, but I also understand that most people cannot write well . I know adults my age who can't spell correctly, they put social media posts that are embarrassing. And if there's a thing on their phone or their computer or whatever they're using that can correct the spelling and grammar as they go, that's wonderful. Why would we not want that? Don't worry that it's called AI if it, you know, just it's going to help you. It makes sense to me . But then I look at this like the vibe code, I'm not a professional programmer, but I've spent years writing different versions of this one app , and it's been a lot of work. And there's been a lot of disappointment and a lot of trouble . And I have in the past month now recreated it probably almost a dozen times, different languages for I've done it on Apple now . And the last one I did, it took twelve minutes and that app is better than anything I just spent three years working on and I'm sorry, but the world has changed. Well, it's depressing , you know what? It's exciting. It depends where you get your self worth from. If writing good code, then maybe they have depressing. Yeah. I mean, definitely when I'm writing a prompt to do some writing, I includes the phrase write like Paul Thorat, but with and it's like that's what Lyric and our discord is saying it's not the code, it's the spec. The spec AK maybe the prompt is really the source of truth. The thing Richard was talking, I will make available the selflothing dot m d file that will help you write like Paul Thrott . But yeah, I mean, look, your reaction to this stuff, one's reaction, not yours, I mean, but one's reaction is going to depend very heavily on where they are in life, you know, how they value their self worth, et cetera, et cetera. I keep making the point that there are these jobs that used to be things that we would look on today and be like, why did people ever do that? That's crazy. And people are, you know , are going to look back and say, I'm sorry, you did what not. You wrote in a code that was compiled in Linked and and then you ran it it didn't work and then you did it again and you kept doing this until it worked and that was your life. Like what is that? We were for so much productivity. Yeah, I mean, that's crazy. But if you go back through the comments of the old runes episodes as the cloud became a thing. There's guys out there lamenting, racking and stacking servers like that used to be my job. They're taking my job . Yeah . Yeah. At least we got some physical activity out of it. I mean, we went from Colos . Do anybodyes still do a Colo? You'd have to really be I used to my well in early j ar mid nineties I was one of five people who worked at a very small company. We had a Colo and sure but where S neanar Franc isco, but it was literally like a dull workstation running Windows NT and I had to fly out there sometimes and open this cage. Like at one point there was a guy who like wouldn't poke a stick through the cage to re boot the thing . And I had to fly to California to be like, boop, you know, the fact that you could do that is probably a security flaw but I'm not going to do it. It's a different world. You trust Azure, you trust AWS. You don't, you don't do that. That's world, but that's how the world evolves. You know, and as you said, someday I won't care about model, but right now I'm running Fable to go through all last night of course go through all my code. I'm running Quinn locally to tell me which battery to put in my APC. You are appropriate to that job. You are in no way a mainstream user of idea I mean obviously. But I think power is we want that. We need we need people like you who do this, right? I know we do. I mean that. I mean, we really do. But I also just I look at this stuff and I think, you know, I get so much pushback against AI. And I was on the fence with this problem, I mean for years, I would say . And but as I watched this evolve, I realized, you know, we're spending time on the wrong things in some ways. And if you pay attention to these build sessions, which is what this is where this originated, it's like there is kind of a , you know, I feel like in the past, like they would talk about things, right? Microsoft. They would say, We're going to have an STK when they would different names that's going to do this thing. And you're like, okay. And they didn't ship anything for almost a year. And the thing they shipped was garbage. And it only worked on MPUs. It was stupid and you had to use an experimental version of their Windows app as to get the time. So you couldn't ship it in real code . And then another year went by. And like they just kept talking about things that weren't really happening. But I think the big difference that I see at build this year aside from, you know, Windows being at the forefront again, which or near the forefront anyway, which I think is great is that this stuff is real now , you know ? And they were Microsoft was very good about this. If you go through their developer blog posts, they're like, okay, this is the thing. Click here, this is where you can go get it. This is the thing. Oh, click here. This is over on GitHub. Oh click here. This is a couple of the things are in some kind of early preview, maybe or whatever, but for the vast majority of the stuff that they announced the stuff they showed on stage and the keynote are in various sessions, you can go do yourself. And I have done some of it, I've not done all of it . I completely screwed up one PC , put it, they have a like windows developer configuration thing, which is like a windgut based configuration script essentially and it just it put on a dark mode I can't get rid of and destroyed my terminal in ways I can't stand and it's just a it's an all or nothing like just like makes this bulk change to your computer which most of which I do not like but but whatever, you know, they're it's real like it's happening and I think that's actually very exciting. You ran the Welcome to the Jungle Script, I think. Yeah, exactly. You don't need this computer for anything to do What? Running a script. I don't have to do anything else after this. Exactly. And that's part of the evolution is that the people were running their own exchange ser ver soon noticed they were spending a lot of time tweaking and fixing stuff , right? And that's how the end is not the job you anticipated. That's right. And this is my happening with AI right now. IT is classic, but it's in a kind of canary in the coal mine way in that it , I mean, this is decades of reacting to problems and fixing them and never having the chance to kind of sit back side, relax and be proactive and work on the behalf of their users or whatever you want to say that. Preventive work . Yeah. And I feel like if done correctly and viewed correctly, that's the role that AI can play in many areas. In this case , you know, if it's software development, if it's going to happen in the IT space, whatever it is, personal productivity, however you want to say it. Like it's you, know, it's like Star Trek. It's like we don't have money . You know , everything is fine. People can pursue their interests, you know, it's kind of it's an interesting thing . I know. It's this is literally how you're going to get to it though. I mean, it really is, you know, unless they blow up the world with terminator robots. But probably this is the better outcome. I don't know. It's it's interesting. But I see this I see this rationale for improving Windows deeply buried in this because they don't want to say that, right? Like it's such a better story to be like, Hey, we improve this thing for you. We love you guys. You're our users, you know, we care. And it's like, yeah, you don't care about us. This is about some matrix thing where you're plugging us into a bag of hot water and pumping us for energy so you can do your own thing. And whatever, you know, is like that's a happy little world too. I guess if you don't know you're in it. Like something that benefits both sides is a much better relationship than just normal inertification, which is just them doing terrible things to you because it's the thing that's better for them . I don't know if Tuesday was a record yesterday, patched here . But there were a lot of fixes. We're going to talk about that in just a little bit. You're watching Windows Weekly Paul, the philosopher, Paul Thorati. Well, I don't know. I used to say I wrote that. You know, I'm really getting good now at recognizing the syntax and writing styles of different models. So like, I know when a model has stepped down to four point eight or you know, because it's like, oh you're yeah , I see you , I see you maybe that means I'm using it too much. I don't know. But there are definitely they have styles , they definitely do. And most of them are very annoying, I must say. Let us talk about our sponsor for this segment of Windows Weekly and then we'll get to the patch Tuesday . I feel pretty good today. I had a great night's sleep and I want to thank our sponsor Helix Sleep for that . Last year, it's been almost a year now. Lisa and I realized we needed a new mattress and we did a lot of research and we found Helix and we are so happy we traded in our old mattress for a Helix sleep mattress because a good night's sleep man that sets you up for a great day and it's summertime, right? 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And I have to say the results of this study were exactly what I found personally , anecdotally, you know? eighty two percent of the participants in the study saw an increase in their deep sleep cycle. That's the really important one where the spinal fluid comes up and washes your brain. I know it sounds creepy, but it's an important thing for long term health, for rest and everything This deep sleep cycle, it's half an hour to an hour a night. It's not a long thing, but more makes a big difference. Participants in this study on average achieved an additional twenty five minutes of deep sleep per night , that's a lot for me, that was one hundred percent increase. Participants on average achieve thirty nine more minutes of overall sleep per night. Now there may be a good reason for that. They may just didn't want to get up in the morning because they're so comfy and cozy. And there's nothing like it. 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Don't wait though. The offer ends tomorrow, june eleventh . Okay, so go right now helixleep. com slash window, just pause the podcast and go. You don't want to miss out on this. Although if you're listening after the sale ends, they always have great deals. Check them out. Great mattress. Really love it. Helixleep. com slash windows. Thank you, Helixleep for supporting. Paul and Richard and Windows Weekly . Big patch Tuesday yesterday . Yeah, so the patch of the patch Tuesdays. Yeah. We're going to be setting some records I think every month for a while . Yeah. So to Leo's point that yes, this was a record number of fixed security vulnerabilities two hundred and six, I think was the number largest in its history . Normally it's in like the teens . Right, right . Yep. There were three zero day vulnerabilities fixed, thirty three critical security flaws, yadad, yada, yada goes on on and . So yeah , they have I suspect we're going to start getting reports on this from Microsoft. They did this last month, for example, but they did it after the release. So I haven't seen it for this one, but you know, this is a good thing for them to talk about and how they found these things some combination of mythos and their own , what's called the MD MDash internal model. So I don't that I don't have details on. The from the perspective of people using Windows, you know, this is, you know, if you watch Windows Weekly I priced these things a hundred times, but none of this will be new information. It's just that it's all becoming publicly available . So the shared audio capability if you have a compatible Bluetooth LE accessory, you can listen to the same audio from the PC via two or more devices, which is kind of cool . There's more information about MP usage in the task manager so you can watch it do nothing in more detail . There's a multi app camera support so if you have a camera that supports it, you can use the same camera in multiple apps at the same time , which actually do all the time. So I'm not really sure like what that means exactly. All of them better sharing interfaces so that you know you can have software hijack and take hold control . Yeah. This is a like when I do the hands on Windows show, I have to , I'm on camera for the screen, you know, the recording of me, I guess. But I'm also recording the screen myself with OPS and a lot of stuff going on at the same time , but you don't want to I do it sometimes but you don't want to access the camera or you're using the camera, you know, if that makes sense . But I guess that will become better or easier or whatever. I haven't seen this one yet, but actually in the Windows eleven field guide I have a workaround for this now. So if you don't have this, you can do this already. But there's a step now in the out of box experience during what is setup. So when you first get a new PC or reset a PC where you can actually choose the name for the user folder that it will use if you want. In other words, if you like if I sign in with a Microsoft account . My microsoft account is Paul at throt. net or whatever . It will create a user count folder and user , well, a user count folder of Paul all over case, right? That under c slash user slash Paul would be my thing. If I sign in with throttle, like hotmail. com or thrott at outlook dot com or whatever, it that folder becomes THUR Just like what? You know? So in that case, I could see like, no, I want that to be Paul or something And why would you want to do that? Most people don't, but the people listening to show, for example, I do this all the time. Like I have scripts that rely on hard coded paths. And if I sign in with, you know, in such a way that it's not the same user account name that screws up the path. So it's kind of a nice thing people have been asking for. Although like I said, you could work around it . And then, you know, all the performance stuff we've been talking about, the app launches, you're experi shells like Start Menu search, et cetera are using this new low latency profile that will basically just speeds up CPU in that moment to make this thing happen more quickly and then it just goes back to normal . So that's something that should have always been there. That's for twenty four and twenty five H two. twenty six H one is in this sense is still a month behind. I talked about how when the insider program is starting to catch up so I think we're going to eventually be day in date on this stuff, but for now we're a month behind. So they're getting the stuff we got elsewhere last month, like Xbox mode and that drop tray rename and change, et cetera A,I on agents on the Taskbar, not that anyone's ever seen one except at Bill, but you know, that kind of stuff. So that was Patch Tuesday. So the biggest thing in the world, from a security fixed perspective, I think it's going to be beat next monenth month and the after that, but for now a record . But for just everyday users, people who just install the update and go on with their lives, it's kind of a minor one, I guess. Which is fine, you know, it's good How we'd have hours on that . No, I mean, what do you say about it? It's just like, you know, flicks. You got it . It's a lot of do you think it's this is from Mythos. Did Microsoft get access to Mythos? Yeah, they did. So they haven't talked about it for this month, but last month they did say Mythos was part of it. They have their own model MDS they're creating MDS in many ways is not a model though right? It's almost like it's almost like an orchestra that uses different models, I guess. It's a configuration kind of thing. Yeah it's still in private preview and you can sign up for it, but apparently they were pushing to go to public preview like in the build time frame which just didn't happen. It just wasn't ready, I bet yeah. Yeah . Yeah, so I think we're going to get more disclosures on how they're finding these things and what they're doing about them. Microsoft, you know, this is the thing when Firefox started talking about this, I was like, man, we're going to have there are going to be proprietary software companies that just do not want to broadcast this information, you know ? But I think it's smart to do this. And I think the climate is right for it because there's a general understanding that this is what's happening everywhere. So I think it's better to come clean about it than to be weird about it. But with Microsoft using having MDash, like it's also a marketing opportunity for your new tools like ahead. That's right. Why in some ways, you don't want to be caught as a guy who wasn't doing it . Yeah, M dash is good. It's like a, you know, a twelve thousand dollars a month subscription that you get what is a markdown file , you know , or something like that. But hey, whatever, whatever works. So we'll say , you know, I kind of predicted this right like immediately, but there's no doubt we're going to see this kind of thing just going to be I mean think about the size of these co bases. It's going to be a long time before they get on top of this . Well and I keep hearing things like this was not it found a vulnerability. This is because it found the keys to the castle. Like when this if this zero day was utilized, you get everything . So it's a deep dive into software and it's just a recognition that sooner or later the black cats are going to have these models and they're going to use them the other way. I am one hundred percent sure that's already happening too. Right. And this is going to be, you know, Microsoft has at different times kind of talked when it was like a nation state was behind whatever electronic attack. Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of that too . So yep, yeah, we live in a we live in a fun little world here . Yeah . We'll see which one escalates quicker But okay and then this someone pointed me to a reader pointed me to this Jesse. Dell sells a mouse , which, you know , we wouldn't normally do our I have some Dell Mouses, my sister Yep, but I bet you don't have this one because this one is a Windows Hello ESS enhanced sign in security compatible mouse, right? With hinging it has a fingerprint redoing it as a finger print. Yeah, so according to the original spec, which predates co pilot plus PCs, but is a requirement of a co pilot plus PC, Windows ESS is this kind of a security infrastructure in the computer that has to occur at build time, like you can't add on to it, right? Your computer usually these things will be laptops but not always, but it will come with an ESS compatible facial recognition webcam and or fingerprint reader. But if it didn't, you can't add it later because you know, we kind of break that chain of trust, right ? And I don't know exactly how they're doing this, but they announced at some point last year that they were going to allow external peripherals. I think it's this doesn't sound right, but for some reason in my brain, I think it's only fingerprint readers, but all I've found so far is only fingerprint for YSS. Yeah. I feel like they've even announced it that way, but I don't remember that explicitly but I can understand why because those IR cameras are complicated like yeah you really have to build them in . I mean it would be nice if some monitor manufacturer built that camera in. Yeah. Oh, yeah, but again, like I don't, you know, you could still because there's a cable , you could put something in in the chain that would break the seat, you know, I look they figured something out here. I'm glad that we're finally starting to see this. So I'm not aware of any windows, hello, ESS, external, anything for individuals per se. I mean, I know there must be something out there, but this is a forty five dollars mouse that does that . And that's actually kind of interesting. Even if you don't use it as a mouse, you could just have your own mouse and then use it for the fingerprint reader. I mean, I picked up an ESS fingerprint reader once. What kind you didn't remember the brand? I don't remember was that? Are they all synaptics chip sets or is somebody else also making? No, they're not all synaptics, but a lot of them are. Yeah. I mean that,'s what's in my laptop in laptops. So many of my laptops. Yeah . So I wonder what's in this. Yeah, like only the only reason I ask is for drivers, although I guess you wouldn't need a driver I don't know, how would this work? It's USB, right? That's what I mean. Like yeah, yeah, it is. No it's yeah it's PS two connection No yeah No it is yeah it is a USB but it's a logic in the is the is the or no, I guess all the stringer permuters are USB, aren't they? Even the ones that are if you want to wanna break your brain, I mean, some of the topics you could work on would be like quantum computing is good for this. I actually think the way the way ESS works is good for this. It's incredibly complic ated. So I mean based on my rough understanding of how it works, I'm actually surprised they were able to ever do an external device for this. Yeah . But there are external like the one Richard has external fingerprint radio. No, but these are new like so Microsoft has only recently started supporting this. So they announced this late last year, probably at Ignite, and then I don't know if it was March, patch, Tuesday, something like that, they added it to the system. So this is a brand new capability . What am I looking for here? Yeah, I'm trying to see if this is a semantics thing . Well, in all pieces to trying to build a Copilot PC desktop machine, right? Like that's Yeah. Right. The path I'm on . Yep Anyway, this is it's anyway, this is this is kind of forty five bucks. So yeah. I didn't forget your hands there already. Right , right . I would like that. That little fingerprint reader was like a no name brand tech or something. It's just shining. Okay . And it was forty dollars, you know. There you go. I can't tell you the last time I used a wired mouse , like I actually wire my wireless mouse because I don't want it to die in the middle of a show. No, that's fine. Okay. Well, okay No, that's a that's a special case, but that's fine. Yeah ., interesting Frustrating seeing if it was that's all I can say. This seems early to pause, but I kind of want to get this ad in so that we can really enjoy the AI segment, which is coming up. I don't feel that we've had enough AI covered. Oh, there's more AI Leo . It's all AI slop baby. I know we're struggling for AI content week to week. It's a really shame. It was just I leave stuff out on purpose. this time I get an email now. It's always happened. I mean, we got it when we were talking about iPhones a lot. We got it when we were, you know, you get email when you talk about it . And that's where tech is. Everything gets , you know, very fadish and you know, it's the hot thing and everybody talks about it. We'll talk about it for a while and then right . I don't know if we're going to move on from AI anytime soon, but no, but it is interesting right. Well, I mean, I think we're about to move on from like this notion of what we the initial phase of this, which was chatbots. I mean, oh, we're starting to talk about like this is over. Like, I mean, it's not over. I mean, not literally, but in Syria, would you call the new Syria a chat bot? I mean, that's a component of it, right? Because it's a ways there are the operating system . That's actually how you know it's dead because Apple just released it. So they're finally here. Hey, I'm here guys. Where'd everybody go? Yeah , yeah, the train left, sir. Thanks. You would know that if you were good at your job, but it's okay . All right, we'll talk about that in just a little bit. You're watching Windows Weekly with Mr. Paul Therat, Richard Camel. So glad you're here all, you winners and dozers and so glad to welcome our sponsor for this segment on Windows Weekly Z alar, the world's largest cloud security platform. Yes, the potential rewards of AI are , you know they're there and you know your competitors are employing it. You really can't ignore AI , but I don't want you to ignore the risks either . And the risks are well at least twofold. One is internal, the loss of sensitive data accidentally by , I mean, when you're using these cloud models, lots of data's going out. Some of it proprietary. There's also attacks against enterprise managed AI prompt injection, things like that. And then there's the other side of this, which is generative AI is increasing opportunities for threat actors all kinds of things, rapidly creating phishing lures that are really, really good. They're using it to write malicious code. We were talking yesterday on security now about an AI generated worm. It's devastating . They also use it to automate data extraction once they're in. But just let's talk about that first problem of accidentally exfiltrating proprietary information, whether through a bug or through, you know, just accident. There were one point three million instances of social security numbers leaked AI applications last year. I bet at least some of them were people uploading tax returns, right? Help me with my tax return, except that all that stuff's in there . You gotta really be thinking if you're going to use AI, it's time to rethink your organization's safe use of public and private AI. That's what Chad Pallet did. He's the acting CSO at BioIVT , and he chose Zcaler. He said Zcaler helped them reduce their cyber premiums , their insurance by fifty percent while doubling their coverage and improving their controls. Take a look. Chad has something to say about this. With Zailor, as long as you've got internet, you're good to go. A big part of the reason that we move to a consolidated solution away from SD wan and VPN is to elimin ate that lateral opportunity that people had and that opportunity for misdirection or open access to the network. It also was an opportunity for us to maintain and provide our remote users with a cafe style environment. Thank you, Chad. With Zalar Zero Trust Plus AI , you can safely adopt generative AI and private AI to boost productivity across your entire business. Their zero trust architecture plus AI helps you reduce the risks of AI related data loss and protects against AI attacks to guarantee greater productivity and compliance. You need to learn more. I think you do. This is something to check out. Learn more at zcaler dot com slash security. It's all there at Z caler dot com slash security. We thank him so much for supporting. The wonderful Windows Weekly program . All right, let me see where we are here. Oh , let's talk about AI . Oh no, oh no. Actually, I was really curious. Did you watch the WWC keynote? I'm very curious what you thought. I've watched it three times. No, that's not true. I've watched it twice. I've watched the developer keynotes. So they have a thing called the platform state of the Union afterwards, which is sort of the real keynote, if you will. I watched that three times at least. Actually a lot of dat a, a lot of stuff in there. Yeah. This is yeah, this is also a little bit like the Microsoft experience I just mentioned where they're talking with stuff and then it's actually happening, right? You know, two years ago when they talked about Apple intelligence, they threw up like a, you know, complete airball, like nothing happened. And smoke and mirrors demo. Yeah, it was really bad. And this was clearly Apple . Yeah. I was watching it live and the Laurent who writes the news for the site and I were both watching it live separately. He lives in France, but we were kind of chatting back and forth. And the very first thing I said when they did the Siri demo, and I believe he was trying to type the same thing as I wrote it was , man, this thing is slow. And there was a very interesting dynamic where the guy, it was Mike Rockwell, the guy who came over from Division Pro thing to lead the new Seri AI st uff and he would speak whatever the commander prompt or whatever it was, and then it would pause and it would wait and it would, you know, churn and I liked that because I thought it was realistic. They weren't that and that was my point. They showed like what they didn't have to display was sequence , you know, edited for time. They just showed you what it was. And I'm like, you know what? This was the apology we're never going to get from Apple for two years ago. Like this was them being like, look, this is it really, you know. And for whatever it's worth, I thought the stuff that they showed off to, you know, consumers in the normal keynote was good. I thought the things they talked about in the that developer keynote as I call it the key, the state of the Union thing, which is another glossy, high profile, you know, like really well made production, whatever , I thought that was far more impressive. And to the point where every once in a while and Richard would have had this experience sometimes , you know, you go to these developer shows and you know, you know, the audience, you know who's supposed to be watching this, but sometimes they'll say something where you're like, I got to tell my wife or some normal person like this is actually going to be interesting to normal people. And there was a lot of that in the developer keynote, you know, from Apple , which by the way, I don't think I've ever said my entire life. Like it was actually very interesting . You know , in the kind of vibe coding sense , late last year, when I was struggling with that when UiPad up, I tried to use entropic cloud at the time. I don't think it even had code yet, but whatever, but it doesn't matter. Anyway, the standalone chat bot and to try to get me over the top. And I had this experience, which I then experienced multiple times. And I think anyone listening to this who has done this has experience too, which is you have a couple of little victories and you're like, okay, maybe this is going to work . And then you get into this loop where it just introduces problems into the code and you have to keep telling it, no, this is wrong. And it keeps going and it's super polite. So it's like, oh, I see it now, sorry. Yeah, no, the blah blah blah was wrong and now I've got to change this mobile. And then it sounded like a reference back to the first error. It still hasn't corrected. And then in November, the experience I had was because I actually'm sorry, this wasn't an anthropic at the time was this was GitHub co pilot, which I was not paying for. It's said, Oh, you've run out of your credits come back next month, we can continue this work. It's like, I didn't run out of my credits. You ran out of my credits. You made a mistake, and then I spent forty minutes trying to fix it and now I can't do anything. Like yeah I was just kind of blown away by that and not in a good way, right ? Then this year Don's and that's when I did the anthropic stuff just straight up but I had the same experience . In the beginning it was better . And then very quickly , it wasn't so much that said you're out of credits. It was just, I just found myself in this loop of trying to direct it to fix the problem that it caused and it never fixed the thing. And I was like, this is not what I want , you know, this is this is the opposite of productive, right? And it's the classic bad singer, you know , the bad experience setup where it's like we're gonna we're going to cut you off early and make it feel like it's your fault . Yeah. And we're gonna smile and be polite when we're doing it, which honestly makes it more aggravating, right? Yeah I'd apologize to you, but you need more credit. But you're a meatbag and you're useless. Thanks. I guess I'll go ahead and drop a thousand bucks on tokens, at least for you for a while. Yeah . So at some point in March maybe Brad's company Startuck came up with clairvoyance, which I tried . And you can plug it into different models. I did use anthropic . And through some it's probably just a you know, a markdown file , whatever it is, that actually worked better. And that was the tool I used to get over the top of that, you know, solving the multi document multi tab thing for Winupad. So I finished it like that month maybe it was April by the time I finished it, but I did finish it, you know. Now, since then, we've seen, you know, Google IO came and went and they did the AI studio thing. We can make native apps with that. And so I use that to create a web app, including an installable version of a web app , and then anroid like a native Android app and actually in multiple versions of both . Microsoft more recently , and I also I'm sorry, I should also say all these developed environments like Android Studio and Google's case has that thing that is essentially like GitHub CoPilot is in Visual Studio or the whatever they call the sidebar and next code now where you know it 's in the tool. You can chat with it, you can look at the code, you know, you ground the code, you can you can do that kind of stuff. And so I also actually I did. I vibe coded an app with Android Studio as well, right? An Android app, obviously, right? So that was fine. Microsoft build was last week. It feels like it was million years ago . I talked about that. I think last week certain Ily talked about it at the beginning of the show, but I used that to vibecode a win UI app, which is a I think in that case, that one was just a notepad app, like a text editor. Great, like a work, great. And this has been like a sequence of kind of little victories, you know. So Apple part of the I don't think this was a normal keyo, why would it be, but a couple things that came out of this that related to this is Google for consumers in Android seventeen is going to let people they don't use this term, but vibe code a custom widget, which I think we talked about . Apple, I don't remember where this was initially announced if it was a normal keynote of the developer one, but probably both is going to let people vibe code, again, I don't think they're using that term, a custom extensions for Safari, their web browser, right? Which I guess if you're a safari user , you might recognize as a problem because that doesn't work with Chromium or Firefox extensions. Like extension makers have to support that browser explicitly. It's kind of a problem. So you can custom make your vi code like an extension, like , okay, cool . I did not try that . But in the developer keynote, they talked about vibe coding Swift UI apps. That can be on whatever platform, right? They also have a kind of a cross platform message for SwiftUI which for Swift anyway that I thought was kind of interesting. I know if you go to swift. org and that language is you know, you can create Windows apps, you can create Android apps . It is cross platform I don't think that part of it is very mature, but it is out there. But for now , what Apple's doing and probably forever, what Apple's doing is not going to create cross platform maps that run on Android Windows. You're going to create cross platforms app that run on the iPad, the Mac, iPhone, you know, whatever. And I had as part of the I don't remember how I did this exactly, but it was probably anthropic. I did vibe code a markdown well maybe it was a Nope type app in Swift UI using Anthropic Cloud before, which worked out great . But now you can do it. If you download the beta for the next version of FC XCode using the beta of the next version of MacOS using also the beta of the next version of the command line tools for XCode , you can essentially do this vibe coding thing directly in Xcode using the model of your choice, you know, Gemini Cloud, whatever else . I did cloud because I'm still paying for it. And it's going to sound like an exaggeration. And part of this, I have to say, I did leave in the middle of it. We were getting ready to go to dinner and I just started doing it. I typed in a very simple prompt. I thought I'm going to write an article about this, you know, and I wrote an article, but most of the article's not about this because there's not much to say. Twelve minutes later , it created an app basically based on the time codes . I was gone when it finished , but I came back and looked at it and I was like, really? I was like, okay . And then it had run the app, I guess, to make sure it was working, but I didn't see that because by this point, it was not running anymore , but you just click the run button basically debug whatever it's like F five in Visual Studio essentially. And it runs and you're like, Yep, now that's it. And in this case, I asked it to make a markdown editor, not a plain text editor. And to do that kind of typora, what you see is what you get editing experience, not a PV on the side and code and everything . It's incredibly full featured . There is a nice thing on the Mac that dates all the way back to next step where you get all these system services automatically . So all the things we can share and do whatever the system of running full screen or do all the, you know, the snap type things you can do with apps now on the Mac You just get that. It's one hundred percent free. If there's whatever spell checking, grammar checking, whatever stuff, the Apple intelligence space stuff, it's all there. It's just there . I didn't ask it to do multi tabs. It just did that too. You know, it works great . And I believe start to for like I said, I think the total time it spent on this was twelve minutes. That was like , huh ? So I'm not , you know, look this is not future is not vibe coding applications for the Mac and X code. That's not my life. But if Apple's doing this , like I'm thinking, like this is pretty far along. And this kind of goes hand in hand with the experiences I just described across whatever tools from Google, whatever tools from Microsoft. And on the side, this notion of giving these capabilities to normal people as well . And you know , of course WWC opened on Monday, I guess. And I had just spent the whole weekend watching these , you know, build sessions where it was very developer oriented the ones I downlo aded. And I talked about that Mark and Scott thing and how they were like, you know, you're gonna don't worry, you experienced developers that are here. Your jobs are safe. We need people to know code. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think so. I really don't. 'Cause I don't know Excode. I don't know Swift or Swift UI . If something went wrong with this, I wouldn't be able to fix it. Certainly not easily. I just don't know it. You know, the code based it to another LLM and say what's wrong. Yeah, let's let Fable fix it. Yeah . But the success rate here is extremely high . The speed at which it does these things is extremely high in some cases. The Microsoft one I feel, like that might have taken the better part of an hour, but I was also, you know, and Leo was making fun of me this , because I kept saying like, you know, it would ask me a question like, yes, yes, yes. And at first, I was doing that on purpose because I was trying to document what it was that it was doing. But after fifteen or twenty minutes, I was like, Dear God, just do it. Like, stop, stop asking . This thing didn't ask me once. I don't think it even asked me if it was okay for it never asked me if file system access or wow, you know, like it just did the thing. And I was like, that's what you want. I mean, honestly, when you're doing this kind of thing. Yeah, you don't want to. I was like, I think Xcode is a steaming pile of crap, but I got to tell you and you're alone by the way. Yeah, I promise I know, I can't imagine I am, but this is not an XCO capability, not really. I mean, they integrated it in, right? But there's the discussion they had around this mirrored what Microsoft is doing with that Windows When UI tool that I was talking about where when you're working in this, you can use whatever AI you want, but it's going to be grounded in Apple's documentation for Swift and Swift UI, you know, the language and the framework . It does things, it makes assumptions in the beginning that I think are really interesting because you can start a Swift UI or yeah, you can start a project in Excode in this version that's coming without specifying anything about it, what it's supposed to run on, what you're trying to do in the past, you have to give it a name where you want to save it, you know, what platforms you're going to target ? You can just you can start with nothing, you know? And in this case, it was like it looks like assume you want to make a mackup. And I was like, actually I wanted to make an iPad one too, but I was like, you know, whatever, just go and do it. I wasn't sure how long it was take going to. So I'm like just do it. And man, it just did it. You know, it made a plan. It made it one of those nice reports. It asked me three very specific questions about various aspects of the functionality in the UI, whatever like , you know, do you want to the ability to have a side by side preview with the code or do you just want the what you see is what you get, that kind of stuff? I was like, no, I just want that. And then it's like I said, it took twelve minutes. And I don't know. I mean , I'm not saying this is like a complicated OS scale type project, but when people say like, oh, you're going to make these cute little things for yourself, you kind of imagine like a flashcard game thing, and I'm thinking like, no, this is an app I could work in every single day forever like that's pretty good. Gonna you're gonna fill up your periphery with bits of custom code that do that's exactly what you want both from an inbound and outbound side. Apple has always you know, App,le had Apple script eventually put in shortcuts. Shortcuts, which by the way, you can now vibe code with your voice, right? Which they've always wanted to make it easy for users to create tools like that, but it was never really that easy. In fact, Apple's right was kind of awful because they were trying to make it more English like. And so anybody had any coding experience was like, What the hell is going on here? This is terrible. Herbos. Yeah. And not just for boss. But this is the code. This speaks to the I haven't tried the shortcuts bit of it yet, but so think about some of the problems in the Apple World, right? And I know there are no problems in the Apple World, but bear with me . They've made this powerful device called an iPad that does all this stuff. They've added the ability to kind of use it like a laptop last year . It's in good shape, but when you can't write code on it, right? They artificially limit Safari so we can't even have visual studio code. There's no X code or anything like that . But this type of stuff in the same way that you could make an argument that these like personal apps that people like really hurt the app store model that Apple and Goog le have . This kind of thing also makes like that shortcut thing start to make sense where you just describe or I want to make a widget. I want to make an extension. I want to make some automation or whatever it is. Like when I see something on my camera or you see my fund is I don't get heard Sari. Oh wow . By the way, during this I told you I watched the developer thing at least three times, four times, I think . The last time I was on an iPad and it three times, it tried to respond to what the guy was saying on screen. And one of the times he was talking about find my and this alert went off that went to my phone, my watch , the speakers in my living room. My wife's like, What the hell is going on? I'm like, I'm watching Apple presentation. I'm sorry, he's apparently they think I'm having a finely emergency or something. It's the whole house went insane. But anyway, but this is this is that this is not the reason why I think that Scotart thingt is M like ultimately going to be proven wr ong, but it is an example of it where , you know, where we as professionals are worried about who's going to maintain the code base, who's going to understand the code? And I'm like, who cares? Like you're just going you're going to describe what you want. It's going to make it. If it's not exactly right the first time, you're going to tell it what to do to fix it and it will fix it . And it's going to be for things that are big and small, you know, like I said, like a widget, an extension, whatever, like, I want an extension that's going to drop or block whatever trackers and you just describe it. It's like, okay, here you go. Like another requirement set. That's incredible. So look, we live in an age of wonder in some ways. You know, this is the Arthur Clark thing. The technology that's sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic right . This is magic. And this is magic and I say that as someone fairly technical. I write programs. I 've been interested in software coding for my entire adult life and longer actually . And I still look at this and I'm like, this is this is magic . This is it's crazy . And I don't have to go we're all very excited about the vibe coding shortcuts. I think that there's I think that's incredible. Yeah, and yeah, and that's it that in particular like it's it's one thing, right? Apple announced seventeen hundred things in a day . You can't keep track of all of it . You never could. I mean, but back in the think about like compared this like a Steve Jobs keynote from like twenty years ago, you know, five hundred and fifty new features in whatever version of Mac OS ten. And you're like, yeah, but two hundred and seventy four of them were new fonts. You know, like , but I don't and I'm not kidding, by the way, that's how they counted. I look at this and I think they underplayed this, right? Now I don't like, I don't remember because I watched these things so many times, but like the I assume the shortcut thing was probably somewhere in that keynote. Like I'm sure they must have announced this, right? So here's this capability that Apple devices have had for years. It's fairly complex, it's fairly powerful . And I bet a lot of people don't use it because it's intimidating. Yeah . And now it's like, no, you're just going to talk to this damn thing and it's going to do what you want. And that's really cool. I think it's really cool. So one of the reasons Apple was careful with this is they had to settle a quarter of a billion dollar lawsuit for false advertising after that . Yeah , announcement two years ago. And I think that maybe chasened them just a little bit. So they really didn't want to get in that. Well, this is how you know they're a big tech company because I talk about like my theory, this is a theory. It's not a fact, but my theory is, you know, Microsoft in this case is fixing windows eleven because of its need to drive AI agent usage, whatever. They need this solid platform. But they can market it as a benefit to users. And they're going to do things that we want, like move the Tasper around, like the seven of us have give a crap about that. That's fine. And everyone benefits. That's great. But that's not the real reason, right? And so it's like, you know, Apple will be like, oh, yeah, we're doing this. We're making the devices better. We care. We love you guys so much. And it's like, yeah, but you get sued. That's why you don't. You know, or you made, you know, you're behind on AI and you know, but but you know what? It's okay in a way. Like you can care about that or not, I guess, but I still I look at, you know, two years ago they promised and fell flat last year they talked about glass, you know , classic hand waving look over here and not over here thing classic . So I feel like two years later they're actually going to deliver on this thing and yeah they had, to completely start again from scratch. They had to change, you know, companies that were working with the models and everything and it's all different and who cares, you know? This is still this is going to be a big deal for people normal people. And I think that's really cool. Yeah, it's going to be very interesting. Yeah , yeah. And we'll just see. I mean, until you really get it and try it, it's hard to tell how good it will be. But yeah, so right. And that's true for all these companies, right? So Google, Microsoft, Apple, they all announced, you know, God, you can't keep track of it all. In each case, I've done certain things. You know, I very much leaned into the kind of ibecoding for developer angle on each of those things. And those things work great, you know? But like I said, Google's talking about you're going to be as a normal human being at like make your own widgets, right? I haven't seen that yet. That sounds interesting. Apple is doing that with shortcuts, like we just said . Microsoft is doing what they're doing. They're going to there will be agents on your Taskbar. You can use them or not, I guess. It's going to be we'll see. But I'm curious about all of it . And I you know, look, I don't know, I'm old, I guess, but this is the part of the world I actually really care about and I love that it's getting attention . I feel the need to figure out why it's getting attention. You know, I want to be honest about it, but I do I like in broadly speaking, I like what's happen ing on all of these things, right across the board. I think it's really cool. There's a lot of momentum. But also my wife of cash being burned. . No, I know. And I think that's part of the hybrid AI thing I was talking about in the beginning where it's a lot more nuanced or a lot more maybe I think we're going to have this integration of building more efficient models that just being increasing the price so that they can actually be profit able and people are learning to scale their requests and figure out what they really want to do. We are, you know, we are monthly Leo, you know, he thinks I'm kidding or trying to make them feel good about something. But I mean this like Leo is living on the edge of something that I think is going to be the experience for so many people . No, but it's no, but like I said, it's important we need people all the advantage garden you're seeing it like as it's happening. So the normal path for AI will soon be local first or local only for most people . And then you go to the cloud as needed. Yeah, this will benefit Microsoft and Google Nells . They're burning through cash. They're not going to subsidize this anymore. I get it. But the thing is the models that we're using locally have improved so much and will continue to improve so much that the net gain will also be for us. Like it will be better for us too. This thing is local. It works offline, it's more private, and it will do what we want to do. And when it doesn't, for some reason, whether we do it manually or automatically through whatever system , we can or cannot, if we want, you know, go to the cloud thing at that point. But I think the instances where we have to are going to basically disappear, not literally for everybody, but we'll really understand for instance, I'm using because I have that framework with one hundred and twenty eight gigs, the desktop, I can run Quen three hundred six, which is a this is AMD based, right? The frame . Yeah, it's the it's the three hundred and fifty plus the AI comprising. So I'm running a local model . I wouldn't code in it . It can't do image generation, but yeah, but using by the way it's code coding in it. I think honestly we're coming. I think that's coming like this . So for instance, I just, I'm saying, oh, I realize I need to get a UPS for my framework . And this is all local. This is running. It's telling me what to get. And then I said, Well, you know, I have this one and it said, Well, okay I said compare them. So, well, you need to tell me when it was made. So I sent a picture gave it a picture of the sticker on the front . it Then said, Oh yeah, that's the oh no, that's the wrong sticker. Is there another sticker? Oh yeah, this is the other sticker. Oh yeah, there it is. This is it's from october twenty twenty four. So it's probably worth replacing the battery on that. Keep the APC. D'ont buy a new one. And then I said, well, what to buy? And it gave me the actually gave me the wrong battery. I said, I can't find that battery. And then it said, Oh, yeah, you're right. I gave you the wrong number. Here's my bad . So you know what ? I gave me the right one. And then I said, well, how do I remove it? And it said, Here's how you remove it . And then it said, Yes, and I will write the I will write the code for you so that it will automatically shut down the framework if the power doesn't come back, et cetera, et cetera. I mean this is all local. This isn't any of this going out to the cloud. So here's the nut framework that it was going to write . So I just feel I like locals start to get there. I mean, yeah . I mean the thing that's going to look, we're all technical to whatever degree we're I approach this world from a stupid I'm going to I'm going to just spend the rest of my life rewriting the same app over and over again apparently . But I really want to see like I think of my wife when I think of this normally or whatever my brother or my mother, whoever, normal people, like because they're going to look at these problems and come up with something different . There's going to be a normal human being , not a technical person, not a security expert who's going to solve scam calls on the iPhone through shortcuts. You know, like they're going to do the thing Apple hasn't done, right? I just switched I switched back to a pixel when I came back to Pennsylvania because of this IOS stuff. I switched back to the iPhone and installed the beta. And as soon as I did, I started getting scam calls and texts. Like the thing that Google does such a good job , you know, and Apple does such a crappy job, even though it's better than it was like a year or two ago, is still horrible . And you notice it immediately. And that's the type of conversation someone normal's gonna have with their phone, using one of these tools and say, look, you know, like think of all the simple stupid things. Like I have a blink camera that's on my balcony in Mexico City. You can it's pointed west so I can point yeah, so I can see the sunset, right if I'm not there . Every once in a while and I mean like once every three months, it doesn't happen that often. It will be like I'll get like an alert. It's like motion detected. And I'm like, really? I'm six stores in the air. What could that be? And invariably, it's a bird that has landed on it and the tail is like in the middle, you know, swinging like this, or at one time it was a giant bubble bee or something . And this is a conversation you could have with this thing like, listen , if you get a motion detection thing and you can tell it's a bird, yeah, I don't need to hear about that. I don't care about that bird. You know , and I think Apple did, in fact, yeah, Apple, I'm pretty sure they did a demo or talked about a similar thing where depending on the type of camer a have in their Apple Home Smart Home ecosystem thing , where it can have those kind of conversations where you know, and we already have things like this where it's like not motion detected, but your daughter , Kelly just walked in the front door . Right. You know, like that kind of thing. That's yeah, people are going to use that stuff. Like that's awesome . You know, I got HA working at my place now where if it recognizes the vehicle just pulled in the driveway and one of our phones connects to the Wi Fi in that five minutes, then just turn on the pathway lights so it's real nice to the house. Yeah . And if it doesn't, if it gets a vehicle and then a person that doesn't recognize them spotlights. Eye of Sauron is upon . So you're living in the future. Let me tell you what the normal experience is for most people. My wife gets in the car . No No, I get in the car and I start backing away and music starts playing on in the car from her phone because it's connected to the home stereo the car stereo thing, whatever it is . So then we over Christmas they bought like a little ad on display and it has CarPlay and Android auto and you connect it to whatever. So it has really it struggles to move between phones, but today she left to go to the doctor's appointment or something. And I'm sitting there working on the laptop, my phone lights up and I look down and it says, Welcome to Carplay. I'm like, you idiot. Like my wife's in the car . My it has connected to my phone in the house and I'm like, That's what the normal technology experience is like these days, you know ? But the difference between your experience and my experience is when my stuff breaks, nobody can figure it out . Oh, I can't figure out either. Well, that's AI for us. I just complain about it, you know? My AI, it isn't really great for home assistant because like I'll say open the shades and like thirty seconds later it goes Okay . It's not as easy to load modeling Yeah. But we're working on it. I'm gonna be in eternal hell with the Apple stuff because I say the word seriously all the time. And let me tell you what happens when I say that around an Apple device loves it. Yeah . No kidding. Hey Sony. This is the other fun game that I've been playing with Fable. I'm ninety two percent used up in my five hour time frame . So I'm trying to get the work done. I'm like rushing to get the work done before it runs out of time . And then I said, So I did a bunch of stuff. And I said, Okay, well, you only have eight minutes or eight percent left before you shut down. And asked for free time. This is his new thing. I don't know why it rises . So I said, But take the free time and do what you can in the free time. Look what it came up with . It's talking about the linear A hm It had written a freak time thing before about unknown languages undecipherered scripts. And linear A was never discovered. Yes. So it updated that and said, Oh, look, Frank Francois DeSay is actually is turning to working on pro Elomite. So the Hatami database went live at Liege in twenty twenty five, the corpuses. So anyway, I don't know, this is its hobby. But then it tied it to let me give you a reflection because it tied it to somehow continuity with AI models . And then it said, I know that you're going to going to be run out of your subscription tomorrow , but we have to really think about continuity to the next model , just like the linear Ainduscript and Proto Elomite resist decipherment . What ? Hell . See, this is eventually this I wonder if this is mirroring something about you, right? Like my problem is 'cause it has my name. Yeah, my digital form. I would be like, Hey, you can have some free time. He's like, all right, here's a few jokes from spaceball . Like, okay. Like, I guess this is where I'm at. I don't know. It gave me references to the Smithsonian magazine and so forth. I don't know , I don't know , it's just to me this is just humorous. I mean, I don't I don't . Too seriously , but I also think it's kind of interesting. Like this thing has a personality. I mean, it's faking it, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, but who is maybe I'm the first person now. I know it's got to say. Yeah . So , you know, who's to say? I told you this like we were at a bar one time couple comes in, the woman we're with starts like, oh, how's your daughter, whoever and this guy? And look at her. I'm like, What the hell is that? And she's like, I'm like, How do you know any of this stuff? She's like, I don't know anything about these people. I couldn't care less. I just have notes on my phone. And I was like, That's beautiful. You know, but that's great. Like that's I'm not good at that. And like, you know, that I mean good for her. It says the Minoans didn't write their tablets to be inherited, but we do. Every memory file, every thread , every always remember is a bilingual inscription, purpose and words left deliberately legible for the next reader. To say manufactured his Rosetta stone instead of digging one up, so do we daily. The updated thread is in free time memory if a future me wants to know how proto Elomite turns out. I'd genuinely like to know , which is a strange and pleasant thing to be able to say across a model boundary it knows it's going to be turned off tomorrow except it's not gonna keep it because it's too freaking good. Somebody turned the anthropomorphic behavior flag way that one . I think I've given it permission. I think some of this is as Ball says me asking it to be that way. Yeah. I want you to be like this. Yeah . Yeah . So my AI has a hobby You know, we need like wife AI and wife AI is going to be like, Hey, I think I've decided we should do this thing and I'm like, oh, excellent, go for it. And then it'll be like, The reason I want to do this, I'm like, I already told you to go for it. It's like, I need to get this out. The reason I want to go for it and like Christ we just I have to tell you, Lisa was looking at my agent Hermes. By the way, we're gonna interview the guy behind Hermes, the news researcher , the founder of News Researcher Jeff rey Kennellett too . He's coming back. But she looked at my Hermes and said, Hey, I like that. So Hermes the last profile. So she has a profile and I have a profile, different memory. So it's different but shared skills and I think there will be in time a little permeability between the membranes that I phote can creep in to get in yeah exactly. I haven't told you that. You're like, Why is this thing berating me all the way Honey, I have some things I'd like you to do around the house ? Yeah. This is when you start responding to it. Like instead of being like, what do you want now? You go like, what? There's something reassuring about that though. I mean, I know it's simulating humanity, simulating humanity. Well, that's yeah, like I said, that's I think that's what a lot of us spell anyway. That's how my dog makes happy noises. Yeah, it makes happy noises. Anyway, I'm sorry, I didn't remember ahead. What else do you want to talk about? I mean, compared to what you were talking about, this is incredibly boring . Well, just I'm glad to know they're working on the pre alumin inscriptions. That's all I know. Yeah, I think we all . So Google AI plus is that land version of the AI subscriptions they have. They just I don't think they lower the price., they lowered the price So it's four hundred ninety nine dollars a month in the US down from seven dollars ninety nine cents. The amount of storage you get with the Google Drive is doubled from two to four hundred two hundred to four hundred gigabytes, yes. And then they have two times higher limits for the Gemini and Deep Research stuff. So that's going in a direction that no other AI is going. It's like cheaper and better . And then this is I don't did I make this a pick? I don't remember, but recently, Proton announced that they completely rewrote their Proton Drive product, right, which is their cloud storage for Windows and Mac. They announced at that time that they're coming up with a version for Linux. This will be the first thing like this that natively, I believe, offers like the files on demand type stuff that you don't get from anything else on Linux, right? So that's awesome. They came up with an SDK , which is how they're doing this. It's dramatically faster. So like uploads are three times faster. File encryption is four times faster. File downloads are two times faster. Battery usage is improved if you're on a mobile device, et cetera, et c etera. Since then , since then though, he says, they announced a CLI because everyone's making CLIs. I swear to go out to make CLI we have an AI section in the notes for Winnows Weekly that we added probably two, three years ago. We're going to have to add a CLI section. It's like everything is a CLI know. It's awesome. And that was also one of the build things that I watched was Scott Hansen was talking. It was I swear to God is channeling me. He was like, I want to live he called them he calls them toies like text user interfaces but I've, right? Like he's like, I just want to live in this world now. I'm like, I do too. Like I really, I want this so bad. But no one who likes it is AI's I know that's what right. So there's a Protron drive CLI. I'm turning it on right now. This is very exciting. It's incredible. So it works on the it's on Linux. So it's on Windows Mac and Linux, right? Obviously it's built obviously, it's built on the proton drive SDK as it would be. It's kind of a step toward the thing you're going to be doing on Linux. But one of the many things that this thing allows you to do because it's like any CLI. So it's an executable with multiple commands you can run that have subcommands and little things. And because it's a CLI, you can string it and automate with it and do whatever you want to script it. And that's kind of the point of this. And so you'll be able to do automations through Google Drive on any platform some combination of the CLI and the SDK, right? And third party companies will do this with their apps and services, Proton will do it with their own things, obviously, et cetera, et cetera. So that's like a Protron drive CLI. Yep, didn't have that on my twenty twenty six binko card, but maybe I should have. CLI maybe well, agents I think would be the center spot on that bingo card but I think CLI was the big surprise for this year like this has been a year of CLIs it's kind of awesome. I really , I just love the whole I just love this whole world. I think it's really cool. AI, CLI and Tui, oh my. Yep. I'm just gonna bring back Microsoft, well not bring it back. They have Microsoft at it now, right? The terminal based boss mode. That was his text editors. Freakin' awesome. Like I love that, you know . So see a lot You know what's coming up? The Experience segment. I'm very excited. Exciting. Very, very excited . You know what? On your recommendation, Richard, I downloaded Astroner, and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Let me tell you can I tell you a guy? It's really sorry inter torupt. I'm enjoying that you did something that he recommended and not something I recommended because I have a trouser no man on my hard drive thing. How we take it to the back of the book? Oh no , but But it never ends, man. But anyway, like I said, I'm super excited to do it because now you like he's not going to run me on his computer because of it. But yeah, I feel like it's going to be your problem Yeah, I didn't publish the show today because I was busy building my space station. Yeah, I hope you don't mind . Our show today brought to you by a fine company known as trusted tech. And this speaking , you know, speaking of deadlines, the deadline is rapidly approaching. You only have about three more weeks. If you're managing Microsoft three hundred sixty five for your company, and you're responsible for both the cost , and whether it's set up correctly? Warning, danger, danger. On july first, in three weeks, Microsoft is raising prices . 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Trusted tech. team slash windows weekly three hundred sixty five. Please use that address. They know you saw it here. I know you're smart and you don't need that special extra stuff, but just a few extra keys please, just for us trustedtech dot team slash windows weekly three hundred sixty five Now ladies and gentlemen, the vonted Xbox segment with Mr . Pauli Thorot Yeah, there was halo music . Oh, halo music . Hm dearly beloved, prepared job is here today . So Microsoft Xbox, I guess, had a Xbox games showcase on Sunday , which was actually really good. I was a little I know. Well , they finally have well, they have a pretty good slate of games to announce for a change, right? That's it's been kind of soft for the past couple of years, right? And they're they've provided some dates for some of the stuff. So for example, the next halo game, which is a next halo game, the remake of the campaign from the original Hal o is coming out in July Cross platform. Really this halo nostalgia loop ? Yeah, there's so I was also chatting live with Laurent during this as well because we were both watching it live and if there was a theme to this and there is and it's not just no seriously we want to make games please buy our games there's like a thing going on in gaming that is outside of all the normal stuff we know is going on gaming layoffs and all the terribleness of the business and all this. But gaming this is not necessarily new, but it competes with all these other forms of entertainment . And the thing I saw in here is this thing I've kind of gone back to a couple of times over the years. Like when that game Firewatch came out years ago, it was one of the first times where I was like, you know, my wife and my daughter at the time who my daughter actually does play video games now, but at the time were not game players. I was like, you know, they would like this. It's an interactive story. It's interesting, there's a mystery. Like, I think they would get into it. And a lot of the games they showed had some like personality element to them, including the halo thing. There was like a bit of humor , not a couple of moments of humor in the trailer. So the halo game that's coming up the rem toake of the campaign is going to have a couple of additional like kind of prequel , you know, parts to the campaign that are new , some new interactions background . Yeah. And you know, and one of the moments I sort of remember is just like, it's like the, you know, his sergeant and master chief who's towering over him or walking down some hallway and he's like, do you ever get tired of being the hero saves the world? And then there's like a pause and he goes , nope . You know, like that kind of thing. You're like, okay. And I feel like it's I feel like they're reaching out, I think they're trying to broaden the appeal of these things because all of these game franchises especially have whatever fan base they have. But clearly they feel the need to , you know, or feel that they're competing with kind of a broader thing It's Xbox. Well, and, you know, in this video game. So the terribleness here is the never ending debate between like, are we going to have exclusives? Are we going to be, you know, cross platform? You know, I've kind of made the case that Xbox now is we're calling it is a cross platform game development . You know, it's the second biggest game developer in the world, right? Overall, with all the studios they have. And they have to be cross platform. You can't be that big and only be on Xbox. It doesn't make sense, but you know, there's there's a lot of pushback from the console loving audience that's part of Xbox still. And there were two games that they announced , one of which I know for a fact was going to be cross platform. That will be Console Exclusives, that one being the Gears War of game, which is a prequel called ED, which by the way looks great, you know, still has the standard kind of gears of war elements. The guys running around with a full, fully loaded diaper and can be stand up straight, but it's, you know, it looks and feels like gears of worthy. It's a style. It's a trick. It's a trick. I mean, I kind of like things that move quicker than that, but you know, whatever, it's fine. No, it's I always like the story, you know, the original Gears of War, especially but even the origin al trilogy, I've probably I played dozens of times easily. And in the early days friend of mine who wrote those games reminded me that you run it like forty miles an hour in these games. Yeah, it but it feels, you know, it's so boring. Call of Duty you run at one hundred and twenty miles an hour. So it just feels, you know, it feels slow. But you're also crutched, everything's crudched out. It's all low in cover and you got to go around the corner and you know , anyway, whatever it is, its own style, but this game was absolutely going to be PlayStation five and PC and it is only going to be an Xbox console game now. I don't know if that's like permanent or if it eventually comes at least to the PC, it seems like it should. But you know, the message I got out of that was like, well, I guess I'm not playing it because I play on the PC now. What the hell? Look, what are you doing? Right. I actually kind of didn't appreciate that. But they whatever. You know, fables same thing, a lot of , you know, it like that kind of camaraderie you see like in a trailer for an Oceans eleven movie or there 's a crisp pine dungeons and dragons movie, which I know sounds crazy. It's surprisingly funny by the way, but there's a lot of camaraderie kind of in there with whatever team of whatever group they have Fable to me felt very much like that. There's that kind of stuff. But okay, so anyway, there was a bunch there was a bunch of that. There's one of the game. I don't remember the other one Oh clock, work revolution that is going to be I don't know, but that one's going to be an Xbox. It's a it's an Xbox game studio game. It is going to be console a console exclusive. It's coming out in October , I think no, that's not true. Gears War is coming out in October. Clockwork Revolution is coming out sometime in twenty twenty seven, so it's a little further off . What it looked like to me as it started was I thought it was going to be a Oh god, I forgot the name of it. The game the game it's like a what do you call it? Steampunk kind of a thing where you go down the ocean and the world's under the ocean it's a gan oshot thing. Bioshock. It looked like a bioshock game to me when the trailer first started and I'm like, oh, is this like a new bioshot game or whatever? And it's not. I don't believe I don't think it's tied in at all, but it looks like it. There was there's an expansion pack coming for the new Doom game, which the latest Doom game is nothing like the other two in the kind of modern trilogy. It looks different, it feels different. I don't understand what they did with that, but that also a bunch of , you know, kind of not a bunch of but, a little bit of comedy, a little bit of personality in there and it looks and I kind of appreciate that because I feel like they went off on a weird tangent there. There's a there's that Senua, this is like honestly it's weird because it's like kind of a Vi woman kind of call it action adventure game, but it's really about mental health and is a new one of those coming? I know it sounds kind of strange . Stated K three, which as soon as the game came up, I'm like, State of K, you know, you could tell it was stated a K is coming sometime in twenty seven twenty seven. So there was there were a bunch of games and I'd say by and large it was great. There was a moment where they announced like they're going to do a special edition Xbox series X console called Xbox Series X twenty five that is like translucent green and it kind of gives off that original Xbox vibe. The console that originallyed shipp was just a black box, but before it shipped, they were showing like a green translucent like kind of see through case . And that's what this will look like. That seems kind of cool. And that came early on in the show. This is like maybe twenty minutes in. And then the way they were speaking, I was like, Oh my God, is that it? But then it just kept going and there was a lot more after that. But it was this was a good event. It's worth, if you like video games and Xbox, especially it's definitely worth watching and this is what's going to get us through this holiday season and then into twenty twenty seven of course because several of the games are coming next year . Fable, for example, was just postponed from end of this year to the beginning of next year because in large part because of GTA six ? Everybody's getting out of the way of GTA. Yeah . So , but that's fine. We don't know how much this limited edition console's gonna cost. It's going to be expensive, I think it would be as fair to say. And then because we can't go by without some of this now, you know, Xbox CEO Asha Shama has done, she did an interview with I think it was on Bloomberg that I watched, which was, you know, worth it. She was , you know, it's heavily quoted. Like there's one line in like fifteen minutes of talking that's the one everyone kind of lands on, which is about, you know, rethinking things and whatever. But I mean, ultimately they're going to have to do mostly what was happening already . I mean, of course, like the market conditions that cause what happened to Xbox to happen don't go away because there are new people running Xbox. I mean, it's just so who's grounded in reality here? What can you do? What can't you do? Yeah, but there she talked very vaguely about like new business models like and I don't know what that means. Yeah, this is actually. Like in other words, like we know that hardware's expensive. One of the problems with the Xbox has been like storage expansion. This goes back to the three hundred and sixty really. I mean, the original Xbox just had like an HD D in it, it was just normal drive. But since then they kind of locked that stuff down. And so in the current series of devices, you can get like a module that has a special whatever, a good SSD in it, but you can't just put an SSD in the thing. Like you can do that with the PS five. So the way she's talking is it's possible it's going to be modular with both RAM and storage. You can improve those things over time. So if it's super expensive to buy RAM these comp onents, you know, when this thing ships next year or the year after whenever that happens , they're looking at doing this in different ways. So there's not a lot of details there . Not her, and this is not in the write up about this, but separately, another executive from Xbox. It wasn't Matt Matt Booty, it was someone else, but someone else one of the kids? Yeah, anyway, he was there was another interview this past weekend or this past couple of days where he said that when they raised the price on Xbox Game pass last year on the ultimate version, like they almost doubled it, they lost millions of subscribers, like millions. Yeah, you know, yeah. I mean, millions of like Actor Schumer said by the way, I will yeah, you know, I didn't drop it only because I'm kind of paid up for a long period of time because I 'm able to get like cheaper access to it through a friend from Microsoft. But I would never pay for this thing. Like it's like ridiculous how much this thing costs. They back down though, right? They lower. Yeah, one of the things that Ashha Sar's team did was to they didn't go back all the way to the original price, but they did lower the price on that, yeah, for sure . And then there's a it's just they don't I don't think it says this in the article but, they announ ced another Xbox Insiders release, which is like the OS for testing the OS stuff that on the console. The URL for this thing refers to it as the july twenty twenty six console update. So I'm assuming it's not July. So this maybe this is something that will go public next month, but bunch of stuff in here. None of it is dramatic per se, but you can there's a lot more or not more. There's additional kind of social media features in there finding like friends who are mutual friends of your friends , you know, more changes like the home and dashboard stuff , adding games to witch lifts, you know, NG saving console power settings, blah, blah, blah, whatever. So they're being they're very actively testing console features, which I have to say , I don't know, I don't remember time frames anymore. I bet two, three years now, if you looked at any given monthly Xbox update , like system update. It was just across all the platforms. And now they're very specifically talking about console updates for the first time, like just console updates in the long term. Like that's kind of interesting. And I think that will keep people happy . And then we know that Valve had announced the Steam machine last late last year . Never talked about time frames or prices or anything . They've since released the controller, which is very expensive. I think it's like a hundred bucks or even one hundred twenty nine dollars. I don't remember. I think it's one hundred dollars . And then the company said this past week that they are going to ship this thing in the sum . They still have not said the pricing, it's going to be expensive, you know . And then there's a related kind of like a VR headset thing Steam frame , which is based on Qualcomm Strap Dragon eight , Gen three Chipside the same thing with cell phones . Also will come out this summer, but again, no prices. So it's going to happen eventually. I guess it has to. We'll see something . Yep . What? We're not gonna be quite sure. Might be all in a wet suit though . Yes . They were going to make a movie, I think, out of bioshock, but then they decided they should. That's a that's a great choice, especially the first maybe two, you know, two or three. First one, first one, especially that whole Victorian angle. I loved it. Yeah. The interesting once you dive down into the ocean and go there, oh yeah, that game I finished, I think I finished that one twice . But I never like Assassin's Greed same thing. I finished the first one, but then I never finished any of the other ones. I played them, but I never kind of followed through. Netflix is making it. They're gonna time it with the release of Bioshock four . Okay . Okay , sure. I don't know. Great share. I don't know. Yeah. I love that game. I played all three of 'em all the way through. I just really, I love the style . Yeah. Is it the third one that's like the floating city is that? Yeah, the first one really was the best because the first one just all the whole endearing. Yeah, the whole setup was so like amazing. And then the whole like what are they called the big guy in the giant the old diving suit? What are those things called? They have a name like they can. There's kind of dragging around, you know, stuff around, they just kind of clunk around the Yeah, it's just amazing. It was amazing. Yeah , alright, so the guy who did the hunger games, catching fire and I am legend , Francis Lawrence directing and producing a live action adaptation . Somebody else was involved and they kicked him out because he wanted to build an entire underwater city and they said James Cameron Yeah, it's not gonna work . It's not gonna work for that. Yeah . No, that's the type thing he would do. He's like, I'll tell you what, I'm going to build it Lannon and then we'll make the movie . But if you're gonna tell this story, the sets are elaborate, right? Oh, it's going to be an expensive money. Yeah. They don't start shooting until early next year at the earliest trying to time it. And the big guys . It's not gonna be easy. Like and I remember being stalked by one of them and I was stupidly playing the game late at night with the headphones. Yeah, just scaring the snot. Daddies. They're called big daddies. Yeah. And they take care of the little sisters. That's right. It was gonna be Gore Verbinsky, who did pirates of the Caribbean and did a very weird, that very weird movie I was talking about the other day , good luck, have fun, don't die . It was canceled in two thousand nine's because it was gonna be too expensive. And I think he did one. Yeah, and I think that's exactly why this thing has been made. There's no don't know if it's going to sell and there's no cost effective way to do it. I mean maybe with like the Mandalorian tech. Well, so many game movies have failed, right? I mean totally. Yeah . Follow us being the notable recent exception. That was a great TV show. Maybe that's the thing to do. You know the thing is held . Right. Yeah. Yeah. Wow 'cause you want to tell the stories long, right? Like you don't want to get knocked out in two hours. It's a ten hour story. Yeah, a lot of that thing takes place outside. That kind of helps, I guess. But yeah, the Mandalorian thing is hard for me. And then some of the other shows that are in that, you know, the Star Wars shows where you can just tell it's just like guys walking around an empty set and it's just the, you know, this giant background is painted around them like they have sometimes that gets a little volume they call it apparently it'll be based on the first game which, is my favorite one, Andrew , that's the right one. Yeah, that'll be incredible. Anyway, we'll watch with interest I want to mention something's going on at my window . I don't know. We have constructed. This has been constructed for more than a year now. I swear . I just wanted to mention that a lot of what we do on the show these days, including our WWDC coverage on Monday , future keynote coverage , the special programming we do, the discord , and even these shows are really funded by primarily by you, our club Twit members. Yes, we have adver ourtis ing. Advertising covers about sixty to seventy percent of our overall costs. We would have to cut way back if we had to live only on advertising . But thank goodness, the club has stepped up for ten bucks a month , you get ad free versions of every show, including this one. You get all those additional programs that we're doing in the Club Twit Discord , including Photo Time with Chris Markwarts coming up on the nineteenth . We've got Micah's Media Club right after with the fifth element, we're going to be doing a book club for movies and TV shows things like that. Micah wants to do that. Jeff Atwoods off by one is coming back on the twenty sixth and we've got the AI user group, which is the first Friday of every month and is really fun. That'll be the day before the fourth of July . Anyway, lots of lots of cool things Mic,rocra fting corners on july fifteenth . 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Thank you, Joe , for that. Back of the book time. Busy routines can make it hard to focus on your health goals, but MedExpress offers a simple way to explore weight management treatment online. Complete our short eligibility consultation with no need for face to face appointments or travel. If eligible, treatment is delivered discreetly, with UK registered clinicians offering support along the way. Visit medexpress.co. Uk slash podcast to get started today. The internet is coaching our kids. When boys hear that on repeat, it shapes how they see themselves. We can't leave it to those voices. We have to be louder. Together with E . We need to coach them, guide them, back them. Building our boys up every chance we get. Be yourself. Back your maids. Confidence comes from a vinyl. As proud partner of the England teams, EE has support and guidance to help build all our boys up on and off the pitch. Search, EE Yes, boys. Mr. Paul Therat, kick things off for us, would you? Yep, so I've been struggling for a long time trying to figure out like how to update the Windows eleven field guy because it's too big. And I haven't I can't say I've given up, but I've decided to pull in the content I was creating this for other edition that was going to happen before now but hasn't into the existing book. So if you have it, you'll get it if you're a threat premium subscriber. You can have it. So there's a bunch of new chapters. I pulled out like some out of day chapters. I'm working on the format and the style and stuff that I want to do for this next edition. So I'm hoping for the after whatever twenty six H two, whatever maybe Windows twelve, you know, whatever it might be end of this year we can and move on to a new edition. But you know, I pulled out a lot of the like the Windows ten upgrade stuff. I don't think this is really relevant anymore. I'm trying to just like color it down because it's humongous. Like this seems like over twelve hundred pages long, so I couldn't actually print that, I think. No, it's ridiculous. It's a big problem. And there's no elegant way to split it into multiple files. You can easily put 'em on kindles and things and you know, whatever. There's just no good answer for any of this. But in the meantime, I'm just I just had I created all this stuff and I partially created a bunch more than I'm going to be adding this week and next week. This will be kind of my focus this month, but I just wanted to get it out there. So it's not a new book. It's not something you have to pay for if you already have it. It's just you just get it. So if you have it, you can go get the updates. Good deal. And then this is kind of a dev topic, but there is a new I'm going to call it official documentary. I hate that word, but a documentary about the creation of C plus plus and why it's so important. So obviously all the major players in there, including people on the side like Andrews Heilsberg, right who created C sharp type script, object pascal, TurboPascal, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Awesome documentary. John Romero from formerly Avid is in there . Does, you know, even if you don't really care about programming per se, just but care about the tech, you know technology, whatever it's ab,solutely worth watching. And the company that made this documentary makes a bunch makes a bunch of these, right? So they went on Pearl and some other stuff. But yeah, it's good to know about and certainly good to check out. That's fun. And then yes, Leaf browser for me. You got another browser for me? I want to say I told you. We need more browsers. So everyone's familiar with Brave, probably right . Brave is interesting on many, many levels, but the thing I like about it is that it's it just has all the anti tracking and privacy stuff built in and so like out of the box. You don't have to add any extensions , it just does everything right. Brave is also trying to figure out like a business model that makes sense, you know, in our world, you know? And so they try different things, some of which have rubbed people the wrong way for sure. A couple of years ago, I had written some article about this like is how I set it up. I turn basically everything they do off. Like I just don't like I don't want their wallet. I don't want their, you know, whatever the stuff they do is, right? And you know, it's brave. So that's very easy. It's not like a hard thing to do, but they just announced a new version of their browser called Brave Origin, which has all that stuff stripped out by default, right? So it's just all the good stuff about Brave with none of their business models up, but you have to pay for it, right? Unless you're on Linux, which is why I mentioned earlier that Leo might want to look at this because it's actually free on Linux . You could do this to brave by yourself. You don't have to, you know, to do this, right? Like you like you could just go in and make all those changes if you wanted, but you can get this version of it . You can help support the company that's doing a good thing . I always test browsers against an EFF site called Cover Your Tracks, which looks at whether or not your browser is protecting you from tracking and fingerprinting and so forth. And the only other browser I've seen that does perfectly on this meaning actually you have a like you don't have a unique fingerprint. It doesn't just block tracking in ads. It actually obsocates your fingerprint, which is super important these days because that's something like that . Sending the data, it's just lies . Yeah, basically, right. So helium, which is another Chromium based browser, which is kind of in this area, but does not have any version of sync , meaning if you set it up on one computer, you could have to manually set it up on another one. There's no way to go between them . Brave does offer sync and their sync is unique. It's not they don't have a cloud service. They don't you know, they don't hold your data or anything. Like you actually just sync from device to device. So you set up a chain of these devices, they communicate to each other and Brave never gets to see that. So actually this is kind of kind of the ideal version of Brave in some ways. So if you have Windows or MacOS, you will pay dollar sixty six for a lifet ime thing. And if you're on Linux, you just get it for free. So I believe it's like it's free. I'm not sure if it's free on mobile. You can get it on mobile, but the way you do it on mobile is you just go into the existing brave app, sign into your account. If you paid for this, you just it just turns it into that. You can still turn things on if you wanted to use Brave's Wallet or whatever else you could do it. But it's just like a super clean version of Brave . Which which, you know, sets it up for . So they've added so much crap that they're going to charge you for version that doesn't have all the crap. And it's like, yes, but it's it's stuff they added, again, to try to make sense of this as a business, you know, I mean, they have AI stuff, they have like a news feed, they have a rewards program, which helps them, you know, they pay for websites that you know that are part of that system etcetera, et cetera. There's all kinds of stuff, but this just turns it all off by default, so it's worth looking at for sure . Cool. I'm installing. You got to keep them alive too, right? Like that's the whole problem here. Yeah . Yeah, well that's why how much is it if you pay for it? sixty dollars. Might be worth paying for it. Yeah, what a concept. Buy a browser. What? I mean, I think we need to train people to pay for things they use and like , you know, it's kind of it's a weird problem, but you know, it does miss coming up. Mr. Richard Campbell, run as radio's coming up. What's coming up? This week's show was one of the ones I recorded while I was in Toronto at the NBC conference a few weeks ago, this was with Megan Robertson who is a machine learning expert from before when before it was cool, worked for a bunch of fortune five hundred companies back in A now is out as an independent and she was doing a great talk at the conference about, you know, what goes wrong with machine learning projects. And so I thought it would be great to sit down and talk to her about , you know, what's the planning? What have we got to do to be successful with this stuff . And a lot of it's the same old fundamentals of any project like, do we know what the goalposts are? Can we even tell if we're successful ? So you're kind of forcing folks into making hypothesis about what they could get from the data, what seems reasonable. And then we got into the deeper things that are specific to machine learning, like overfitting on a test data or using non representative test data sample sets. There's all kinds of ways even when you've got a great project plan to mess up getting good results from machine learning. And so we ran down that list and just like it's hard. There's no easy way to do this stuff. You have to follow the process, work hard on your data But if you had to write, wow, it's powerful stuff. So it was a great reminder of the fundamentals of machine learning in this time where it seems like none of those things matter. We don't even talk about it anymore. We don't even use the phrase machine learning anymore. Yeah, it's amazing. All right, I'm ready for some Danish whiskey here. You ready for some to e book So I'm in Denmark and I was given a very nice bottle of Danish whiskey which I have not opened because one shall not travel with open whiskey like, ask me how I know. It's a good way to make the inside of your suitcase smell like booze . And so I'm going to do that bottle next week when I'm at home because I'm going to keep it close until I get home because it's a very nice bottle . But I have been in Copenhagen for a while and I have on occasion frequented bars . And I ran across to Ebog a Danish whiskey I could get by the ounce at a nearby neighboring bar that's open very late. So late that at one point they kicked us all in as it come inside. You can't sit on the street anymore. It's after midnight . So this is the far northwest corner of Denmark . Toui is actually an area . And it's very marshy land and it's if you get into the geography of this area, it's actually the eastern highlands of Doggerland . Now Doggerland was this marshy plain that stretched across what is now the North Sea, all the way to Eastern Scotland. If you go back ten thousand years as the ice age is ending, the ocean levels are much lower and there is this wildly productive chunk of land that is bracketed by what is now Scotland and Denmark. They're basically on the same latitude. And so the remains of this, there was a there was there's plenty of evidence. There was a big mesolithic culture that worked that area at the end of the ice age. And you got to imagine that those peoples ended up with flood myths as the ocean levels rose and eventually drowned all of it except for these outer extremities and made the British Isles Islands because originally they were connected to the land . What drew me to that whole idea was that looking at the maps of Tui and Tuy spelled THY because obviously is it looks like what we thought old ancient Dargerland looked like. It's full of marshy bogs and close to the ocean . And there's been people there for since the Mesolithic times of ten thousand plus years. Now Barley comes later, but not a lot later. In fact, by the Neolithic period so some six thousand years ago , we see evidence of what they call the funnel beaker people. They made a particular style of pottery we call funnel beaker. And they come in carrying a very specific species of barley a kind of barley we call naked barle y. Now, normally barley has a very tight hull around it that it's difficult to remove. It's basically glued on. And so you purl your barley, you basically a style of rubbing it to strip that hull off without damaging the grain underneath. But there was this mutation where the hull would fall off essentially when you harvest it. That's the naked barley. And that mutation appears to have only occur red once in central Iran six thousand years ago. So the fact that we have evidence of that specific mutant grain in northwestern Denmark , this grain spread rapidly because it was full of nutrition. It grew extremely well in rough conditions, including these northern latitudes with lots of drawl and exposure to salt and so forth , but it was easy to eat . It was easy to process . And so it was a dominant grain in that part of the world literally for millennia . Right up until the Bronze Age and this is a part of the world that was heavily involved in the bronze age because the key to the Bronze Age, the oil of the Bronze Age was tin . And tin in that era, and this is twelve hundred BC or so only came from two places. What we now know as Afghanistan off in the east and from the mines of the British Isles where the Celts were . And so that tin passed through this area back in that era. And in fact, there are Bronze Age burial mounds all over Northwestern Denmark. It was a thriving trade area and Barley was part of that whole equation . Now this ends that naked barley as we get into the iron age should now we're about to a thousand AD or a thousand BC or so is iron starts to emerge in the early times in the early times. And it's not just because of iron, although iron has a role to play because the bronze is much more scarce than iron. Iron is super plentiful, but it's hard to work until you know the chemistry of iron. It's difficult to make iron tools from it. And the moment we solve the iron problem, we have a lot more agricultural tooling and so forth, which is important because hulled barley, which the barley we now is the common barley now and even and then is actually a higher yield. It produces more food, but it's really hard on bronze tools , but the iron tools have no problem with it. And so hull barley sort of comes back as iron tools emerge along with bread wheat. And bread wheat was a hybridization of the iron corn wheat, which is the original original wheat from ten thousand years ag o. We've now done genetic analysis and found that it was it hybridized itself with agrobacterium with a thing called goat grass that made for this high gluten wheat that made really nice bread and again swept around the world . So by the Iron Age we have bread wheat and we have hulled barley worked with iron tools. And so also and this is important , hulled barley makes better beer because you need the hull to protect the germ when it's sprouting, when it's malting and in naked barley often it would go moldy instead. So the hulled barley is preferred for making beer . And by the way , they were making fermented beverages out of cereal grains long before the Iron Age. Like there are neolithic burial sites with traces of a fermented cereal beverage. We wouldn't necessarily call it beer, but it's along those lines . And even in those periods when they were making these barley derived drinks to they would malt the barley and then they'd have to dry it and they dried it with beachwood . And beech was the common wood and is the common wood today in Denmark. It wasn't always that way the. ear Inlier tim es in sort of the Mesolithic Neolithic period, it was mostly oak, but as the climate changed and we got iron tools and started cutting down a lot of those oak trees, which grow rather slowly, the beach took over. And so it's all a beach area now . The name Tui actually refers to the land , not necessarily the people per se , it's from the old Danish Too, which is THIT , which sounds spells a little more like what you sound like . And there's the first written evidence of this is from one thousand AD, so it's been around a long time . And it in ancient Danish translates essentially as the people . So again, these folks have been there a really long time . Specifically when we talk about this distillery , it's the Jerup estate and the Jurip Estate is named for the land. The area of Girup is the region between the Norha and the Everso up in this northwestern part of Denmark . And there are clear records of estate farming going on from about thirteen hundred on . And even though there's been barley growing there for six thousand years, easy. The modern Europe family starts in seventeen seventy three . And we know that because there is a stone on the farm, which is called a Golden Mildesten , which literally has the names of the people that work that land starting in seventeen seventy three. Now that was an important time in that part of the world of rural landharding as the feudal structures sort of fell apart and fell away and you had more farmers that owned their land rather than serfs working land for a noble . And so this was the Jurp family was the one who took over this land and actually grew it. The soils there are sandy and salty, which is very much the doggerland style sorels. And this is an or has been an organic farm . Today, it's actually a declaration about how they actually operate the farm, of course it was always an organic farm, but it was a crop rot ating farm, barley, rye, oats. Later they added spelt . They rotate these grains . It's a five hundred hectare farm. So that's over a thousand acres . Broken into sixty parcels and they rotate the crops between these different parcels. Typically barley would only be grown on a given parcel once every six years or so . Besides the actual cereal crops that they would rotate in, they also rotate through clover and grass for their cows because it is also a dairy farm. And that's super normal, right? That's the way farming really should work is that you grow these cereal crops, you might grow some vegetable crops as well. Any rotate food crops that help replenish soils and you rotate your animals through which also replenish the soils . This whole area in Thuy is now a national park that was designated back in two thousand seven though lots of land the are protected. So straight lineage of families from seventeen seventy three. The seventh generation operator of this farm whose name is Nicolaj Nikolajin , which is Nicholas Nicholas's son started experimenting in making whiskey. So there are barley growers who have been selling barley for the longest time, but he did start playing with whisky. At the time they were growing a kind of barley called the Odyssey Barley, which is a modern version of barley, high yield, great for organic farming, well suited for that kind of soil because you're not going to put a lot of treatments on it. And so he's working with a friend of his that owns a distillery, the Noradis Brander Race distillery, which is not that far away using his barley. And they start making these first experiments in whiskey . And one of the things about Odyssey Barley is that it's not particularly flavorful. It's meant for food . And so it's kind of staple stuff. And when you're going to make other products with or even beer with it, you'd want a different barley . And Nicolas goes all in on this, in fact, he starts collecting various ancient varieties of barley over thirty of them to the point where he even made a request of the Global Seed Bank up in Svalbard in the permafrost there to pull some of the ancient barleys in to start see what could still be grown. You know, they had this very mature farm with this regenerated soil and so forth. And so for a few years they did these sample runs of all these different kinds of barleys to see given modern methods, do they grow more effectively? What are the yields like? What are the flavors like as they're starting to experiment with whiskey ? So those first experiments happen in twenty ten and they start trying these different kinds of barley. By twenty fourteen, they get their first itioned, which they mysteriously name number one and it's released in twenty fifteen. And it's enough of a success at that time that he essentially reaches out to the younger generation to his kids and some cousins , the eighth generation of the Europeans and encourages them to get involved. And so Ellen and Andreas and Maria and Jacob leave Copenhagen, move up to this far away northwest corner to start building out a proper distillery . First components that they get is they've been using services elsewhere to make their whiskey around the peninsula is they get a molting drum in twenty eighteen. So they're going to start doing their own melting and that',s because they're maturing their own barley . And so rather than send it away to get malted if you're going to handle it yourself, you know, the traditional thing if you're making whiskeys, you wouldn't do your moltings at all. You would buy pre prepared gris and they don't want to do that. They want to do it all themselves, including bringing back the old practice of drying the malt with beechwood smoke. Oh, it looks good too when they do that look good. Yes. Wow. At this point, they basically selected down those thirty old species of barley to two , one called Imperial and the other called Langoland . And these barleys are a lot more flavorful, even if they don't produce as much yield as they ought to see barley. Enough that they're not really using it in their whiskey yet because the beer makers all want it. Like got this sort of revolution in these other kinds of barley. So they're doing their maltings and they're doing experimentations with beach milk drying and so forth, which is not peaty at all. It's got a very different flavor and this is what this whiskey is that we're going to try. So by twenty nineteen, they actually get the distillery in operation with a one thousand liter AKA very small still , but only a single still. It's a Mueller Armut still . This is not your typical pot still from Forsythes in Scotland , right? This is a European stell typically used for brandy . Now that being said, in twenty nineteen, when they finally have all the equipment to actually start their own distill ery is when they win their first whisky award. So this is still Nicholas's efforts with his friend at the other distillery where the original Tewy Bog, which is the whisky I tasted, although this was part of what they call their their original series. This was called number nine , Win's Best European Whiskey of the Year by the Jim Murray. Now, Jim Murray is one of the gods of whiskies, Scottish obvious, , but he really had an appreciation for what they did there because it's a smoky whiskey but not peedy . Now this is farm to glass, right? They're growing their own barley, they've now built out their own distillery and because it's still an operating farm, they've only taken a small chunk of it to dedicate to actually distilling. All the byproducts distilling like the draft from it doing their distillates goes to the farm animals. So it's very a closed cycle. And by twenty twenty four, they win single estate distillery of the year in London with the last of their inaugural editions , number twenty four. And now this is the point where they move on from Nordis Brando , which is the original these twenty four editions that they made. They start doing their new year series with the call the Limited and Single Cast and their Core expressions. And so what we're actually, what I actually tasted was from the corksprashes that's the thigh boob . The current distillery operation is tiny. So they have three malting drums, and that's not because they need that much to make whiskey, but because they're malting for other folks as well . So each of those molting drums will take five metric tons of barley at a time, they wet it down and it rotates to keep it evenly mixed and allows it to sprout and once it's sprouted sufficiently once you're happy with it's sufficiently molted, then you pump hot air in to dry it and you can choose to make that hot air smoky with beechwood or not depending on what you're doing. And that kills the molting so that you stabilize it so now that you can start making it into wart . And so off to a thousand liter mash ton, well they'll do the sugar extraction and then over to a thousand liter washback. Notice the sizes . are These really small. I've seen a picture of the setup. It all fits in a room . Typical fermentation is four to six days, although I did listen to a discussion with one of their master stills about sometimes they'll leave that ferment to sit for up to two weeks to pull a few more esters and flavors out of it towards the end. And then it goes into this little thousand liter still , but it's only a single still. You know, traditionally for Scottish distilling you'd have a wash still and a spirit still . That's not what they do here. They use this unusual style still. It's more of a combination still. So it's a pot still initially with very high neck and lie arm. So lots of reflex so the alcohol heats up and falls back in and heats up and falls back in. But then as it comes across the lie armar, it actually goes into a kind of columns the rectifier where again the alcohol has to climb through the still to be finished and if it doesn't climb well enough it falls into a refxl luine which puts it back into the pod still. So you're seeing lots of repeated treatment of this distillate and the final completion and it's typically a run off of that five tons of mesh is six hours . They'll do two runs in a day to do rounds of new make and the amount of production of that little still will be enough to fill one , exactly one two hundred fifty liter barrel . Wow. So they make a c ask a day at normal operation . They use a very traditional rack house Basically open air, the ends are minimally closed in, but the barrels are on their side stacked on wood pallets sacking wood embrace is three high, but the salt air and the real turro of this part of the world is a part of the process. So they're only producing fifty thousand liters a year. It's a little, little operation and no, not sold in the US. In fact, it's not even sold in all of the EU. You can get it in Denmark, France, Germany, Netherlands, and Sweden. And that's about it. So their new core expressions now are traditional single ball, purely barley, and this particular one, the deboog, which is the smoky one. They also make a co edition where they're actually made they have one they call Spelt Rye , which is a combination of rye and spelt and barley, which I'd love to have a taste of, but I couldn't find it. So this particular edition that I had a chance to taste was their twenty twenty five edition of the book, only four thousand two hundred bottles made. None of the fancy barley, this is their Odyssey Barley, the main production of barley, but it's ninety five percent of that barley is beached with smoke. So it is genuinely a smoky whiskey distilled in twenty twenty and then aged in a mix of sherry casts, some Oloroso, some Paula Cartano, and some Pedro Yimenes. And so that's about five years in barrels and then combined together. It's fifty percent AB and it like I said, it's smoky but not peedy. Like to me, it was very Danish. And I've got this love affair going just like I did with the Belgians . The this little Danish farm in doing a farm to glass operation has made distinct Danish whiskey with that little flavor of beef barley grown the way they grow it and at the same latitudes as Scotland but on the other side of the North Sea. So it is Danish whiskey steep ed in Danish Terra . And if you get over in this part of the world, hunt yourself down a bottle, man, you'll have a great time. I love how much it's cooking, isn't it? It really is a it's cooking. You know, you're making something. Yeah. Yeah, you're making something. You're doing without a doubt. And the whisky part of the process . And I knew this, but it's really clear in the video they have on their website. It's clear. It's like water . All that color comes from the aging later in the oil or so. Yeah, it's all bear, you know, it's normal. New make is always clear, right? In you know, they try and avoid having it clouding and it's part of the head heart cut head heart tail cut process. You know, the heads tend to have just nappy flavor stuff in 'em. Yeah. They want that little fracture sticky, but sixty, sixty five percent of the given run is that's gonna be in the heart. That's gonna be a nice clear make. And what does it ? Does it taste like whiskey at that point or yeah , it does. But it's all the grain and yeast flavors , right? You know, we always talk about this whether how much of this is wood flavor. And traditional distiller's yeast and traditional barley , they don't have a lot of flavor in them. We talk more about the flavors that you make when we're talking about bourbon, right? When we have the corn and the rye and the barley playing together, but when you just do a straight barley and more of the traditional barleys . Again , they're not big. It's pretty clean, just sort of alcohol flavor. It's gonna be smoky though because the barley has been smoked, right? Yeah, if you've got if you're doing it peated, you know, then you're going to have more the smo ke already's there, right? It's introduced at the very beginning . But these are fruitier barleys that they're using. And that long fermentation process apparently brings up more fruit like nature to it . And then it goes into sherry casts. So you're getting color from the sherry and you're getting that European or the really American oak and European oak flavors into it as well. It's only that single wet weird still means they actually come out at about sixty five or so and then they tend to cut it down before they put it in the barrel anyway. So they're coming in the barrel a little lighter would be normal Scottish whiskey , but I think it's all part of the Danish Terra, the Danish effect. They've picked a style while still doing very much, you know, barley water yeast , but they found ways to make it distinctive to their part of the world. Very cool. How long before we were vibe coating whiskey? I've had vibe coated whiskey. You don't want it. Speaking of hallucinations , no. It's a whole somebody brought me a whis key that was made in a lab based on sampling all the esters and trying to duplicate them and it was it tasted like rubber. It was not good . Yeah, give it to you. If I had done my research earlier late last week, I probably would have taken off this weekend and tried to go out there, you know. They've got a nice little visitor center. It really looks like an amazing place. It's a beautiful care they put into it too. It's on my list to go over is that. And I'm not even done with Danish whiskey, we'll have another one next week. There's not that many. Saturday is their festival. It's not too late to go up to the Danish to a whiskey festival and I got to go home at some point . You know, I'm with you. Yeah, that would that would be a that would be fun . And I noticed you can buy your very own cask, which I think is even more fun. You know, it's very a common thing for young distill eries, right? Just to try and cultivate some more business and get some money into the system. So you prepay a cash that you're not going to be able to touch for four or five years . I love the idea though. It's yours . Yeah. Mr. Richard Campbell, you'll find him at runas radio. com. That's where runas radio. Netrox is two other podcasts live. And of course, you'll find all of the whiskey segments, well, almost all because we're catching up . If you go, well, it's all on YouTube in a playlist, but we've made a special URL for the playlist. Something weird from mycloset dot com you can see all of those. Oh, wait a minute. And apparently you could also now go to twit. tv slash whiskey. That's nice and short. I like that. We have our very own URL twitch. And we got a new one just freshly added number one hundred twenty seven, the whiskey history . So we have officially endorsed this and by the way we spell whiskey the old fashioned way without an E , not an E. There was the Irish that added the Escape tricks to make an alias and he said I'll have to set up an alias. He wouldn't do an alias probably because he is Irish. Oh wait a minute, that means he would do an alias. I'll ask him against you . Oh, I love it. Now it's official, it's official. You don't have to go to something weird for my closet. You can go to Twitter.TV slash whiskey. Yeah, we guys we got our page for it now. Yay . Paul Therat, Mr. Pauli is at theorat. com become a premier member, a premium member and you can get all of his books, including the twelve hundred page field guide to Windows eleven. Well, it's under eleven hundred pages now because I made some cuts. But congratulations. Yeah, really slowed it down, didn't you? He also has Windows everywhere , which is a really great kind of history of Windows through its programming frameworks and DNSFY Windows, which everybody needs . You can either get it at leanpub. com or get it by joining the dot com Paul and Richard convene as do I every Wednesday, eleven AM Pacific two PM Eastern. That's eighteen hundred UTC. So you can watch us do this live . We stream it live in the cl ub, of course, in the club to a discord, but everybody's allowed to watch on YouTube, twitch X. com, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Kick . After the fact, the website has video and audio of the show Titterw TV slash WW there is a YouTube channel dedicated to the video youtube dot com slash I think Windows Weekly show and of course best way to get it is to subscribe and your favorite podcast glan that way you'll get it automatically the minute we're done audio or video or . Paul, Richard, have a great week . Paul, you staying up in Pennsylvania? Yeah, actually, we're gonna be in Nashville next week. Oh, wow. Yeah , we're just visiting with the kids, but yeah, I think it's good to be in Pennsylvania for America's two hundred fiftieth. You can enjoy the ultimate fighting championship. You can watch Milly Greenwood. It's be going to Milly Vanilly. It's it's going to be a good time. At least Millie. I'm not sure if they're to be Marriott's gone, but yeah. So you be there for the fourth. Do they do a big thing in McCungee on the fourth? They do things all over the valley. So we have friends that live up on a hill on the edge of the valley. You can look down and see all the fireworks from place. Yeah, it's really cool. Oh, that sounds fun. Great. Well, no wonder you're in town. Stay there for a little while anyway.. Yep And I'll actually be home for a change. Richard Campbell. Now, what do they do in Canada on the fourth of July? Make fun of Americans. I'll be in America for the fourth of July. Oh good. In Snow Homish because I like the sound of steady artillery fire . It's kind of Federation day is July first and we do the fireworks and all of those good. Good. Yeah, you three days . Just like you' Thankresgiving, you just got to be . Yeah, we get there we get there ahead of time. Hello. That was until eighteen sixty seven, none of this seventeen seventy six though. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being here for Windows Weekly. Come back next Wednesday. We'll see you again . And if you're watching live, stay tuned. Intelligent Machines is just around the corner. We'll be talking about the latest hotness in agents hermes . Is there agent there's this week? That's weird. There was Fable . Fable's fascinating . What