Advice for Candidates in Challenging Markets

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Get started by posting your job for free at linkedIn. com slash work life. terms and conditions apply This episode is brought to you by Walmart Business. Here's something I've seen over and over in high growth organizations The leaders who actually transform how their teams operate, aren't the ones with the biggest visions. They're the ones who ruthlessly protect their team's time and attention. And yet so many of us are still losing ourours to the basics procurement, ordering supplies, chasing down purchases that should just happen That's where Walmart business comes in built to simplify our operations a huge assortment of business products, everyday low prices, and fast reliable shipping and fulfillment You can manage all of it on your schedule online, in store or right from the Walmart businessusiness app It's Walmart buuilt for your business. 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Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over one hundred and fifty years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high performance functions. That's a long time to get it right, and it shows in every detail Experience the difference of Kohler smmart toilets. Find out more at Kohler. com I've made a lot of, let's call them unconventional career decisions in my life. deceisions that people, smart people told me not to make told me to do it every time those decisions ended up being right But about ten years ago I made a job decision that ended up being a mistake It was a big career leap bigigger scope Bigger title All that stuff that feels like winning on paper Pretty quickly, something felt U I felt exhausted instead of energized I was showing up Doing the job, I'd sit in meetings nodding along, but inside I felt this tightening Like I was holding my breath all day At first I tried to muscle through it. I kept thinking it'll get better. But the longer I stayed, the worse it got everyvery decision felt Heavier. Every conversation left me more confused And because this was the type of job I'd always thought I wanted. mismatch wasn't just disappointing It was disorienting got lost. Burnt out, not overwhelmed For me, being lost at work felt like waking up every day inside the wrong story Like I had stepped into a version of my career that didn't fit But I didn't know how to step back out. And I stopped trusting myself. That's the part I hadn't experienced before, the part that really shook me I wasn't just unsure what to do. I was unsure of who I was And that is a very particular kind of lost The thing about getting lost at work is that it feels like you're the only person in the world that this has ever happened to Everyone else is confidently striding down a clear path and you're just You're wandering in circles And of course, the reality is that getting lost is incredibly common. but we don't have language for it which makes it really hard to talk about I didn't have a name for what I was feeling That is until I'm at Efy Walker Evie is the founder and CEO of O four a talent agency and recruiting firm that places executives at mission driven businesses She is also a brilliant writer and thinker. She talks openly about her version of being lost at work what she calls the work twwisties. The twisties are this very disorienting sense of losing position, likeike where do I fit losing your sense of purpose. What am I supposed to be doing? Where am I headed? She compares it to what a gymnast feels when they lose their sense of place in the air It's unsettling and destabilizing. If you explained the work twwisties to me, something clicked help me understand my own experience better I'm Oolly Graham and this is Work Life, a show where we untangle the messy human side of work. The work twwisties can show up in so many different situations Maybe you're in your own version right now Maybe your entire industry feels like it's shifting under your feet Maybe the thing you've been good at for years doesn't feel fun or stable or write anymore And you're not sure what you should do next because you've stopped trusting yourself That is why I wanted to have Ei on the show to share her story and to understand what she did to overcome the work twisties This was actually the very first conversation I recorded for this podcast. And honestly, I learned a lot making this episode I was nervous But I knew Ei story would help people because it helped me. So I wanted to make sure you heard it undernderstand the type of person Ef he is. You first have to hear the story of how she founded her company zero four I stepped away from a job, a big job, and I was just about to get married. and I said, lookook, I'm looking around everybody and I don't think anyone's happy there a whole set of things that I don't think actually align with the life that I'm trying to live. And so I just quit And my parents were like, what are you doing? We don't understand how you just quit it and don't have a plan And so I was just thinking through what I was going to do next and I got a call from a former colleague and He said, hey, I'm about to step down as CEO of this large nonprofit I think my board would love you. Are you available to fly in an interview with them? And if they I think you're great the job is yours. And I remember sort of thinking No, I don't want this job. and that's not for me. but giveive me a couple days and I'll think of some people for you. And he said How much do you charge for that I didn't know that was a job. And I said, give me twenty four hours. And I came back with a contract signigned it and I was off to the races and that was fifteen years ago. You sound like someone that's really unafraid of the unknown. Like you say I quit and I didn't know what I was going to do next and my parents thought I was crazy. you say Give me twenty four hours when someone sort of challenges you to do something that you didn't even know was a job Is that scary for you or are you just like I can figure it out That's an interesting question. I've never I hadn't really thought about it in that way I will I will say that I think for most of my career, there's sort of been like kind of Knowing That's not for me. I'm not supposed to do that Also I think because of how I grew up in an environment where I had to figure out what were the rules of rural America? What were the rules of being Nigerian? What were the rules of Be a kid. what were the rules of navigating different spaces that were very that was unfamiliar to me. What were the rules of asking Billionaires for money. I didn't know prior to that The only thing I sold were like Girl Scout cookies and those practically sell themselves. And so I was just sort of in these situations where I had to observe and sort of make meaning of, okay, these are the terms of engagement. theseese are the real rules That understanding of how to navigate new unfamiliar spaces is what makes EFi so successful Ethy's company ero four took off like a rocket She brought on new clients and was expanding her team. thenen something happened that shook her sense of self The triggering event for you going into the workace twisties was losing your dad. It sounds like he was a grounding force. Will you talk about what that meant for you both in losing him and why you think that triggered it. and then also in finding yourself when he wasn't physically around anymore I still remember Like I wanted to play football And my mom was like absolutely not Thank you girls don't play football. And I was like, Let her play. She wants to go around with the boys, let her let her play and he went to the school And I was the first girl to ever play football and he made sure it happened on my behalf there was never sort of the pressure actually from him. to be anything other than what I was And so I think to like to not have that just called a lot of things into question. and then and because I saw him as sort of the one who had created the space, the foundation, in other moments in my life if I' felt confused, or I didn't know what to do That was always a compass And It seemed like anything was gone I was like, said what's the direction then? your work twisties were triggered by grief But I think you think of the work twwisties as different than just grief specifically. Can you explain how they're different Well first, I think grief is not a moment in time. Grief is there I think grief has a chair in my life. It will always have a seat But I don't have the twisties anymore. And I think that the distinction is I don't know how other people process grief, but I know that for myself, couldn't do fundamental things, I can't run a meeting even though I'm CEO. I can't Hitch Investors, I can't run a sales meeting I've raised forty million dollars. I can't run a sales meeting. I can't have a conversation. with someone on the playain, who's just asking me What do you do? blank These things that I have been trained to do For most of my life, couldn't do anymore back up and just actually define the work twisties This is something you've written online about. and it's a metaphor that has helped me make a lot of sense of my own experiences. So I know it will help some people who might feel lost. in their career or at work. So set the stage for me. tellell me where the concept of the Work twwisties started for you I remember Simone Biles saying to the world that she was done, that she was no longer going to participate in the Tokyo Olympics because she had the twisties And I remember onslaught of nayssayers, people calling her weak, that she was unpatriotic. And I also remember her publicly just seeming not to care. She said, this is dangerous I'm going to support my team, but I'm done. and I remember thinking about the courage that she took in that moment and how she didn't ask anyone for permission to essentially save herself And I was really just taken by that idea that in that moment where she was She had lost sense of place and position in the air, she had lost the connection between her mind and her body recognizing the danger that she was putting herself in by continuing that she essentially got off the escalator, right? She's like, I'm not I'm not wriding up anymore I don't know how I'm going to or if I'm even going to come back. She didn't make us any promises But she had a knowing and she actually took action. with it. So that's sort of the moment where I thought This is really interesting. This is really powerful So then that led you to realize some point that you had the work twisties yourself. So talk about what the twisties now mean to you and when you realized you had the work twisties. for me that coincided with the loss of my dad and recognizing that a baton had been passed, that I wasn't equipped for I wasn't ready for But it also cycled around the time that my company was growing and different things were required of me and I found myself in a place where I couldn't do basic things. so similar to a gymnast that You know, Simone. She could do a car with her eyes closed. O a fourage beam, but she couldt she couldn't do it because that connection was broken I couldn't do sales meetings. I would go into meetings and just sort of mid conversation just completely be like, what I don't I don't know what happens next I would be trying to give feedback to a colleague and could find myself Like I don't do I know how to go I don't what is this supposed to be? couldn't respond to basic emails from clients, from vendors, I had to forward those to someone else because I didn't know how to respond. And these are basic fundamental things that I'd been training for for a very long time and there was some kind of disconnect between what my mind sort of knew to be true and sort of how I was actually behaving and showing up. And I remember how disorienting that was and also how much shame I had because I didn't know what was happening. and anyone else had experienced this and so I didn't know how to even ask for I just sort of tried to muscle m, my way, my way through it. I don't think we have language for it That's why I was so taken by it. I wanted to give executives leaders and organizations language for periods of our careers where we may feel like we have lost sense of place, position, purpose, and for me, protection It sounds like Almost losing trust in yourself and you've talked about sort of having this strong sense of inner knowing. So for you, was it partially about losing that inner knowing. It was one hundred percent about that because I These are things I'm supposed to be able to do I still remember a meeting where Someone asked me what the vision was for the company. and I think I just looked at her and I was like, I don't know, what do you think It's my company I started it I began to sort of outsource this knowing, well, I don't know. and Maybe you know. Molly, you know. Mbe maybe does anyone, you know, let's just survey the crowd and let's see what people have to say becausecause I didn't I didn't know. And that used to be my calling card. I'm one I'm the oldest of six In our culture, we have a title for the eldest daughter You know, she's the ada and everybody sort of defers to that I am used to understanding, knowing what to do in an emergency, I am the person you follow without a doubt, right? I will own that but to be someone who suddenly doesn't know what to do next can't tell you whether you should go left or you should go right was deeply crushing, right? That was That's actually my identity And I didn't trust myself to make decisions anymore.idn't trust myself to respond to emails, didn't trust myself to talk about the vision, didnid't trust myself to manage a team And That's a really dangerous place to be in because I also started taking in and internalizing a lot of stories about myself and also asking for and taking in a lot of advice which I think even further muddled my own ability to find my voice and figure out what I actually knew to be true Yeah. So in that moment which sounds a little bit like a dark hle. That's exactly what it was while Yeah. Literally darkle. Literally, that's what it felt like. I dark. Yeah. I'm familiar. That feeling. Did you let yourself take a step? I mean, you were navigating the grief of losing your father while trying to run a company that you founded. Did you let yourself step back or did you just try to power through it I try to power through it. but That's my biggest regret is that if I were to go back and talk to myself I would have said to myself It's okay to go away Right? It's okay to like go away and see what happens in moments of quiet and silence. it's okay to get off the escalator Just because it's going up does not mean you have to continue to ride that moment when you don't know who you are anymore when it's hard to do things that used to be easy when you don't trust yourself to decide things or answer things or just take the next step The triggers can look different for each person But I'd argue the feelings once you're lost are universal That's why I'm so taken with this concept that EFy has developed becausecause by naming it and understanding it to find your way back to yourself We'll get to how Eveie worked through her twisties in just a minute. This episode is powered by AT and T Business If you're running your own business, you know that the Sunday scaries are real You're thinking about the invoices the client calls the inventory, the list that never actually ends And honestly, we usually don't think about our internet or our phone service until it isn't working. Sometimes, a simple glitch can feel like a total catastrophe That feeling of powerlessness when your tech fails you is the worst It's a reminder that our connectivity isn't just a bill we pay. It's the backbone of everything we do AT andT business gets that They know that for a small business owner, good enough isn't good enough. You need reliability that stays in the background so you can stay in the lead. If you're tired of the friction points and just want a provider that understands the stakes, check out AT andT Business powered by AT andT business, built to work G AT andT business at business. at. com This episode is sponsored by Rula. When you're dealing with burnout, a big life change or ongoing stress Finding mental health support should feel like a step forward, not a second job Rulo was built to change that. With Rula, you can find a provider who's accepting new patients and book an appointment as soon as tomorrow No more long wait lists, endless searching or insurance surprises They partner with over one hundred and twenty insurance plans, so the average copay is just fifteen dollars per session. And with thousands of therapists nationwide They can match you with the right one based on your needs, preferences, and where you live That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price point that actually makes sense Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance Visit rula. com slash workk lifeife to get started RuLA d. com slash workk life. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget This episode is brought to you by Upwork. best leaders aren't always doing more They're making better decisions about what to hand off and who to hand it to, Knowing when to bring in the right expertise and moving fast while they do it Upperk helps you do it all Thousands of growing businesses trust Upwork to hire flexible, high quality freelance talent for everything from one off projects to ongoing support Getting started is easy. Sign up for free, browse profiles, review pastwork, and even get help scoping the role everything you need to hire with confidence. Upwork also cuts down operational hassle by handling things like contracts and payments in one place So you can spend more time doing what you do best Visit upwork. com right now and post your job for free uppwork. com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow That's UPwOrk. com uppwork. com Okay, Ey So you're running o four. You're growing this company, but you completely lose your footing you realize you need to reset Can you Tal a little bit about what your mindset was. How did you approach that challenge of resetting? it literally required re teaching myself fundamental things. And so what I mean by that is you know, if I think about Simone, one of the things that she did was she had to go back to the last thing that she knew that like beyond like a shadow of a doubt that she could do She started doing cartwheels, right? She's been doing cartwheels since she's been two proved to herself that she could do a cartwheel and improving with these really basic fundamental skills, and then beginning to practice things with greater complexity and accepting that the time that it would take would be the time that it would take, right? And so similarly, That's what I had to do. Yeah. So You said she found her place by jumping into big Pits of balls and doing cartwheels. and that was, you know, safety and reorientation did what was your version of doing carpbels? Like how did you start to learn your position and place and time again Well, whyt I stop asking for advice So I fired metaphorically other voices. and it's like, I'm not listening to you. You're fired. I'm not looking for your advice. That was number one The second thing I would literally have to do was sometimes making a list of fact versus story. So if I was telling myself, I can't do this meeting, I can't I don't know what happens next. Okay, what are the facts The facts are that you have this meeting with Mollologgrram. The facts are that, this meeting is that. Tay ofessential The facts are that, all the questions are about things that you know story is that it's going to be terrible. It's going to be a bomb. You're not going to be able to speak. The words aren't going to come out. thoseose are all stories And being able to separate those two things, was like a practice. for me And that at a very tactical level I would just start with the smallest thing I can send an email. to my team It says here are the three things that we're focusing on. That's it That's it. three bullet points. Does't have to be anything else And I started to find things that I could that I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could do You talked about advice being disorienting for you and adding, I think, to the pit of despair at the bottom. Tell me why advice was so disorienting for you. Because it was so Easy to just take it Right? It was just it was like a magic pill That sounds good You should do that You don't get any closer to knowing because you've taken somebody else's advice and in a lot of ways, I was sort of abdicating responsibility. I was passing that on to somebody else, and it also made it easier to blame them if something didn't go well because at least I didn't have to choose. I don't have to be wrong. and constant sense of Somebody else is in control I think that's what was so disorienting. I had lost my ability to dictate and determine My life and That was just confusing to me If you met someone, that was going through the work twisties right now that was listening, thinking,, oh, that's me. What would you tell them? Oh. I mean, Id tell them what I wish someone had told me, which is, you won't be here forever And this is normal, like life and work is not this hockey stick. It's not just up and over to the right, even though that's what we've been sold. I would say Yeah, you're suffering Like I'd want someone to acknowledge you are suffering. There is a cure Everything is unfolding as it should be, and you will find your way back to yourself againgain. You also said to me that one thing that helped you was sort of this idea of being ten percent braver Every day, will you just talk a little bit about the idea of bravery and how that helped you If you are in a place where you don't trust yourself, everything feels scary Everything feels like a possible big catastrophic mistake is waiting on the other side you don't trust yourself. So every sort of act where you are taking the chance to prove to yourself that you can do something is an act of bravery So For some people Maybe that is I'm going to walk into this meeting or some people was like, I am going to go to a conference for the first time in two years because I' thought I don't know how to to these people, so I can't do it. but asking myself how I could be ten percent braver has been really powerful And for me, part of the process You know, that I haven't talked as much about is undernderstanding that up until that point, Purpose, place, position, protection were all things that Not that I' had to work for them, but they had to sort of come to me. They just were this stage In my career, I might have to go chase those things. I might have to go create those things. I might have to go find my people. I might have to go create my safety I might have to go chase my purpose and recreate it and redefine it and define it for myself and to get there for me has required that I ask myself again and again What would it look like if I was ten percent more brave? I don't have many work regrets But the ones I do have come from moments when I listen to the wrong part of myself It's so interesting listening to Ei's version of Get Lost because it sounds like her self confidence was grounded in her father's complete belief in and support of her. And when he died, she didn't know who to listen to. For me Making the wrong decision made me realize that there are parts of myself that could guide me in the wrong direction partarts of myself that were grounded in what other people thought of me or externalities like that While I was working through my work twisties, I learned a helpful metaphor from a career coach. She told me to picture my inner voices like people in a car Some are in the front seat dririving or navigating Some are in the backseat along for the ride and some are shoved in the trunk muffled and forgot. She had me take people out of the trunk and ask them how they got there And she had me talk to the people in the front seat and asked them what it would take for them to let someone else drive. Efy, I had to fire certain people. and not listen to them anymore And then I had to learn who in my car I should trust. how to make decisions by listening to a new set of voices A few years later, I actually turned down a fancy cool job offer that certain voices were screaming at me to take That time around, I really forced myself to grapple with the hard questions What does this job actually get you Is this the right decision? Or is this just something you're excited to post about on LinkedIn? Every decision I made after getting the Work twwisties felt like an act of bravery and like I was relearning to walk or to cartwheel to use the gymnast metaphor Ultimately, it led me to a much stronger grounding in who I am. What I care about and what work I should be doing in the world not what someone else thought I should do That's what I wanted to talk to Ei about next. More in just a minute This episode is brought to you by National Business Furniture. You can find them at nbf. com What your workspace looks like says a lot about the way you work and can make a big difference when it comes to productivity. The truth is our surroundings can impact how we think how we feel and who we become while we're in them Your workspace can affect engagement productivity and maybe even retention. 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That's frramer d. com slash work life thirty percent off Fabor dot com slash work lifeife, rules and restrictions may apply. And I sat down with Ey Walker to talk about the work twwisties and how to regain your inner knowing when you've lost it I also wanted to talk about her executive search firm, zero four I wanted to know what she'd say to people who are looking right now in this incredibly challenging job landscape Be it's easy to lose yourself in the hiring process Sound impressive, trying to be what you think people want. And I think her approach asks you to flip that It rewards clarity about who you are, both for companies and for candidates Listening to you talk about the work twisties It's all about finding your footing again and for you and I think in general That was about choosing courage over fear And that's a thread that runs through your work at zero four two. You've in my opinion, built a company that asks leaders to be brave, to look honestly at themselves their culture. So I'm curious what bravery looks like to you and your work. and how it