Finding Hope Amidst Technological Disruption

Lemonour You made it weird. with meet Holes. What's happening, weirdos? This is such a fun and one of a kind episode. We've never had an episode like this. Kate Bowler is What is the what is the perfect word? I was going to say like So impressive Brilliant Funny And like I don't know. You're going to hear She is she's ready to go and I I did most of my research by reading her book, Joyful Anyway, which is incredible. Go get joyful anyyway. Is there a better book for the times we're living in that you need to read, Joyful Anyway by Kate Bowler. Check it out. It's amazing. That was the bulk of my research was I was like, I will read this book And that's what I did And then we talked and you'll hear time and time again, I'm just making lots and lots of mistakes. notot knowing how many books she's written, not knowing U things I should know So that's the kind of episode this says, you need to lean in to what it is and then you will be delighted as I was because she's so funny and she doesn't Honestly, she doesn't like fawn or let me get away with my bullshit, which is a really entertaining podcast and she is brilliant and you should check her out. We're so glad that Kate Bowhler is here today. What shall I plug I am on the road If you're listening to this the day it comes out. I'm in Denver right now I'm going to be where am I after that? in LA on june seventeenth, That's going to be an incredible show. Shang Wang did the last one. It was so fun. I'm going to be in San Diego. I'm going be this is so boring Durham, North Carolina, South Carolina. I'm going be in Sacramento. I'm going to be in Portland, Maine, I'm going to be in Verona, New York. I'm going to be in Vancouver, Sant Louis Abispo, Madison, Wisconsin Seattle, Portland, and that's it. All of those are on pethomes. com whoops, sorry My book, which I just knocked the camera while I was reaching for this, spells to cast on your parents. It's a kids book It goes along with my face. so much of my work is filled with profanity. This is a kids book. This is a book I made for my daughter. She loves it. She's a tough critic. It's a book that gives your kids the power to cast spells on you, the grown up reading the book to them. So it's a really funny silly, sleepy bedtime story that not sleepy, you know helps them wind down and also kindind of Sleeper teaches them how to read. So check out Spells to Cast onour Parents. It's available for pre order right now. I did the art proud of and I did I did the words as well I'm so glad you're here Kate Bowler Glad You're about to you're about to hear one. You're about to hear it into it This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a fifty page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online makes sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responsse is setup required compatibility and availability varies eighteen plus Study and play. Come together on a Windows eleven PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal, everything you need to study and play with select Windows eleven PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft three hundred sixty five preremium and a year of Xbox Gamepass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller Lear more at windows d. com slash student offffer. Law Supplies last ends june thirtieth turns at aka. mS slash college PC. starting now. Sorry, yes.ry Sorry, sorry I apologize for being so Canadian. Deeply. Which part You've never been and you won't care and we can try, but you'll never care It's not Toronto. Exactly. It's not Vancouver. And you have played this game and I have already lost. I'll even take a Winnipeg. Are you from Winnipeg? Yes. Are you? Yes, I am. Well, then you owe me a fresh story becausecause I lived in Winnipeg for like A month and a half. Wait. Shooting a movie. A Hllallmark movie? No, but that's what everyone Thank you for giving me an opportunity to try to be humble I fail every time Whenever people say, was it a hallmark movie, something flares up in me that says, How dare you? And every time I went through customs, I'd say I'm here for a movie and they'd go a homeallmarkk movie and I'd go Did I say a homemark?ike I'd be like really mean like in my mind. You're like, I have a face for the dance scene. I could be in a Hllmark movie, but right? Is how we made the popcorn purveyor, you could be the owner of the Evergreen Christmas store. Wait, you're making me like a secondary character in a Hallmarkk movie? Okay. I was just gonna say I could be in a homeallmarkk movie, but I'd be the star of the homemark No you can't run the crranberry farm You I'm not the You know, you don't have sincerity for it. the hair, but not the sincerity. I don't think you know. I know. I kidding.'ve seen Wh do you think is the lead of a lookook, I don't want to put them down. They're all good hardworking actors in Winnipeg for fuck's sake. I have I do the hallmark bingo every year. What does that mean?ike There are so much seven Are you saying Eneagram said Yeah? 'cause we're both fun? No. I'm an Eneagram too. I will die of empathy. Oh nice. Are you okay? And you help everybody and you secretly hate them for it I think I picked that up in your book. Your wonderful book, joyful anyway Don't buy the other one I bought the wrong one. There's another enjoyable anyway.ere is. Yes there is. No, there isn't. There is No. There is. Unless it was written by AI after I sold the book, there isn't.'m I don't I like this to be a phone free place. But there is definitely another joyful anyway because when I got your book. Okay. well, they do check these sorts of things before. Nope Yeah. What they do is and I'm glad we're talking about this is when a book deems itself to be bigger than that other book Like it might be like kind of a self published There's joy anyway. Yeah. well That's not the same thing. There's Hallelujah anyway by Anne Lamot. Loly. Are you mad about that? No No, she wrote that before and she deserves it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. lookook, people are saying anyway, anyway This is so dumb. This is a guy on his phone Joyful anyway? No by Julian art was it written after? Health, mind and body? First of all, how dare you drag Julian on my podcast It came out in may first, twenty twenty six. Yeah. See, I told you. Is it real? No, this is how that goes. This is what it is. See, I'm a researcher. I would have looked at my own book title. Yeah, but sometimes No, I'm a historian. Sometimes you look and you go, but it's small. We win the game of the past. If it's in the past, would I would know You would know. Yeah. Well, then I'm you're sorry for dragging Julian. I'm sorry for doubting you But it is only an audio book. So you think it's an AI book? It just can't have existed when I wrote it. That's all I know Do you want to listen to a sample? The subtitle is The Hidden Truth A about Happiness, No one tells you But Kate Boowler would say, happiness and joy are different. They are., you don't have to do that.. You don't have to do I to you. I a too m. thans. Thanks,' actually a really important distinction. Hi, hi, highi hi. U Okay, good. I came up with a book titled, I thought this was brilliant, but I have bouts of mania You know what I mean? Yes. What is this?? Is this your two look? Is your any ofim? I feel concerned but interested. Mania, not bad mania.. What is this? We don't know yet. That was S more. I don't know y. was I don't believe you. I'm not sure Are you an unmatched person? Does how you feel in your face match They are. So you didn't believe me You think my mania is like a burden? I think love. think I think I have consumed enough of your content to to not be sure Oh it's a research too. research. too. So it might be. okay. Yeah, let's let's. Okay, I'll say more. I'll sayay less I'll stop introducing myself to you and okay, go off that you know that I can be very lit up sometimes and then not lit up at all other times. Y. Hi, I'm the guest today. You're doing great. Your career is going well. I think I'' here to sh me I'm shining. You are shining. Look, all I want to say is I thought there was a book title called Happy for No Reason. I thought that was brilliant. Yeah. I don't think so anymore Becauseuse you I are both interested in the qualities of joy and like why it kind of this is very leading, but why it kind of feels like your birthright to pursue happiness? And I don't mean in the American way. I mean in the human way. We're all kind of like, that's the real me. Like it feels clear And you're kind of happy? That's right. But then I was like circumstantial happiness. looking for it in ice cream or success whatever is fleeting. So there must be another kind of happiness. And then I looked on Amazon happappy for no reason and it made me instantly doubt it. lookook, it wasn't, I don't want to put down the person who wrote happappy for no reason And here she is getting a lot of free press You had to Schlepp all the way in here to plug joyful anyway Don't buy the E Lamotte one. In fact, buy the E Lamot one and return it. I say this isn't Kate. rightight on every page. I prefer joyful anyway. My dad does this thing where he buys secondhand copies of his own book, gets mad if he's personalized it to someone and then sometimes contacts them What was that last part? Sometimes co. I mean sometimes S more He'll reach out to the person. every now and then? How does he find them? First and last? He knows. They're writing first and last? Yeah. I mean, it's like It's's o, sir, did you give away the worldld Encyclopedia of Christmas anda that's his book Yes, my dad is the world's leading expert on Christmas, which is why I know so much about Hallmark movies What is happening right now? It's real. Your dad is the he's Yeah, he is. The world's authority on Chr Like being the world's Authority on Coca Cola or something it's very. And they are intimately related. They are related. Thank knowing that. Tell me say more. Why am I talking Don't let me talk. I'm just like a hose, someone left on. You need to go. What do you mean? Well. and Coke was very smart, I interrupt. to sydle up with Christmas? Yes, they were. Brilliant. Yes, those Brilliant. Excellent marketing. But it reallyer Christmas was very poorly researched and then my sweet loving, very deeply depressed dad in theid eighties was like, wait a minute, I'm sad. I make Christmas quizzes. They make people laugh. Maybe I should stop doing tutor history all the time and do this. Like the tutours. The tutours. Yeah in France. So he did helps you learn Listen about Christmas. I thought he was a Christmas tutor. I did. He would love to teach you. He's depressed. Why do you know this? My own father, why would I know he was depressed? Oh you were alive So you didn't fix him? I was So having you The most middle child question is I I didn't have myself toide out. You know. You couldn't b close the deal on dad's happiness He had to turn to Christmas Christmas research? Did what you couldn Fix, papa. It could have been better. I should have been better. It should have been better. How was if I'd only tried First of all, bit over, papa. You did great. It's not your job. Look, if Christmas research fixed him, that was beyond our skill to heal. rightight? If That's the only thing that can fix you if that fixes you. You know what it was about Christmas honestly? It was that, well he was He was very sad. He So you noticed This was a known This like took aart took apart my childhood, his like very deep depression. Really? And it was it was the Honestly, it was the this real it was like a little glimmer of something inside of Christmas where it's dark It It's co Nbody Ch It's Christmas. Christmas? Yeah. Christmas season comes when there's likees, It feels like there's nothing left. The world is depressed. It is. And it goes, Don't worry, there's an old man coming. No. He's got It says too much sometimes and this is what I think too about like joy or any beautiful thing is that sometimes only excess can convince you of like your own put an inherent worth. You mean excess of gifts Excess of everything, food and love, les. Yeah Ment. Exactly And it and it's for no reason, which is why it's so delightful Okay What do you mean excess is for no reason by definition. Is that true Yes, that w. And then I give you excessive trophies and it would be like it's 'cause you won the race. Th then they wouldn't be excessive. Is it's just how words work. But it's not how people use words. Excess is too much which is what I'm saying is the right amount But how is that tied to reason? I'm not I'm going to die on. Theological truths is that it has to be more than enough sometimes for us to tip the bal. You need to be flooded, Ranch hose. A hose of ranch ranchanch dressing Ranch dressing. Y ranch. Yes. but you're going to be literal about ranch dressing, but I can't define access. No You got there I am there. I'm glad I pushed back because it took a minute for me to lock it in. acccess by definition. Okay. so it happens for no reason, It is your dad would know designed to hit in the dead of winter when everybody's feeling Yeah the blues. Yeah, exactly. Right. And we do have these like moments that are supposed to remind us of things. And I do I think it being like the grand reminder that like things will be beautiful again, things will come again. And I think we all kind of like need to go through Right, Cyclical feeling For sure.. in those low moments, you need to remember Well, like other the Christmasy things, food. It's gonna be okay. Yeah. Like Literally the eararth is like no food. Yeah, you're. Yeah. I have all the food. Jokkeess on you Earth. Look at that picturesque window. have all we have a ham. And We squeeze it out of you? Yes. We thum our nose at you. That's right. You're all dead. We're doing fine. We're hoarding. Yeah. Yes, we're hoarding. siloed all this ham. We did. We have a ham siloed a ranch. Yeah we kept it as a petine. No I dig that blew every Christmas for a lot of reasons, but it helped your dad to I know we're not interviewing your dad, but you watched your dad reanimate as he started to dive deeper into Christmas? Yeah This is a Hallmark movie. Yeah, I think it is. rightight? Yeah You could make hundreds of dollars If you love I could make dozens. You could make dozens upon dozens of dollars. I could. And if it's a huge a Canadian nicl you'll get a residual of a Canadian nickel. I'd love that. I love that very much. Canadian nickel, which is a very useful nickel. Yeah, our currency' iss holding. Thanks. Oh does it? No, it's going okay. We have Mark Carney now though, so it's fine. Who' that? your prime Whoa, yes. Oh really? Do you know the Prime Minister of Canada Ebody does because if you're sad, you should go on Instagram and just watch my video. Sorry, if I'm sad I should go on Instagram and watch That's the clip advice. She doesn't know about Joy. She just told me to get on Instagram if I'm feeling so good Go ahead, sorry, Dum D, greatreat laugh Joyful anyway. Look at the proof is in the pudood. She's joyful. eating puddingings. It's horrible. She's been eating the Christmas puddings. It's close. Which your father could tell us used to be some sort of goat sack or something. Like it's all awful. It's all awful. Yeah. I'd like to talk to your dad. Yeah It feels like you should be here. right now.. Look, you shouldn't dropped that your dad was a Christmas expert, 'cause I'd like to know. Look, he wrote the world Ecylopedia of Christmas, He wrote Santa Claus a biography. He wrote Christmas in the Crosshairs Santa Cla biography to use your aggressive words by definition can I cannot wait to be busy with you words from now on. Wait, the autobiography I You can a biography. I know. and I was just waiting For me to put it together. Yeah, I just there's too many Too many times. This is good. humility Thank you. You're welcome I just have like a PhD or something Yeah, theres not still a lady Let me tell you what's your PhD in? I'm taller. What's your PhD in? History. Oh, well, let me give you a lesson. No I'm just trying to be an awful man, I guess. It's working. It's working. Okay, go not your dad. Who cares about your dad I like watching you redirect. Yeah. You're doing great He finds the people that he signs the book to And what he says to them, Let's just close that, loop. You probably is like, Hey, are you missing something Like he's being snotty about it. a little bit I think he only did it once with like a pilot that he personalized. It's fine. He just owns a lot of copies now of secondhand copies which he has in a pile of resentments in his room. And you saw your dad, the author and said. we gotta let this go. We gotta let this go. But you now have two wonderfully is joyful anyway, selling well? What is the two? What are you referring to? Didn't write another one? I've written eight books And the five are New York Times bestsellers. Which five All the good ones. Which ones did? The actually the history was. I can't believe my research department, Katie, bailed me eightight bucks. Yeah,. It keeps happening, ye. Nicely done. Thank you. I liked where two was going though. Well twow compliments you're gonna give to me one You're a great writer? A, thanks. And you're a great reader of the book, the audiobook. Oh, that's nice. I'll give you a third one the press package that's the little living room set. I made it Some man made it. I made it. I mean, I didn't go to China and make every small thing, but did I come up with a You have to bring up awful conditions that made your press kit Those's not awful conditions. It's miniaturization No, you don't know You don't know. I like that face though. The face is getting worse and worse. I'm not even sure. I love that. That was the third compliment. Your book Yeah. to which isn't I mean, maybe it is. Maybe worked I mean, I was gonna do your podcast. so we were in touch. Yeah. So I knew who you were. Yeah. I didn't know you wrote eight books, but I got this thing from the S Book lady, named Kate Boller. It's me. And I open up the box. Soi. Smir? S Nois, I said it's me. This is French.s fine. Saaini. Sainoi. Yeah. You'll be okay. You mean with or without that knowledge? Exactly. By definition? By definition I didn't realize I was in the presence of such a scholar. What didn Who you it later? The Duke professor part didn't No, I got that. It was like Duke. Aw, come on.' just elite Is that an y U Thanks for asking. when we get insecure, we're like, it's research one. But does that mean it's being looked into? Yeah. It means only thirteen schools are technically Ivy. Oh Yeah. which you can't countount like Stanford isn't an Ivy. W But people don't know that. That's why we say we're like, we're R one. We're in R one school. R one. Yeah. Research one. sounds like a Star Wars thing We could arrange that. Yeah. But it's an excellent school. and you've been teaching there for how long? Twenty years. Holy shit And is Joy Fful anyway a New York Times bestseller? No. Whoops I guess it did pretty well. And was there another book that was like nipping at its toes and you're like, S ya No, no, whenever they show you the list, you're always like always just under hungry, hungry caterpillar and you're like, I'll never beat you. Is that still rocckking? Oh, it's doing so well. Yeah. It's so hungry It's hard those thick books that really, there's such a feeling of accomplishment You turn a page and you're like a fourth of the way from the book. That's right. I think knowing that you'll always, always lose to something that you was read to you is very humbling Hungry hungry caterpillar. Yeah Yeah, yeah Well, okay, great. Cgratulations. Thank you. I'm trying to not ask you those obvious book tour. No, they're not book tour. The thing I really love is the argument. I love Because I the argument of the book is my favorite. Oh yeah, that's what I'm saying. What is the argument of the book Well, because I study the health and all this and blah blah blah. I study the health. And I realized I said wealthness. Wel through this industry Health and wellness. I did. Yes U I'm excited because I'm with you with the like self optimization culture. Exactly. whichich we really are in this like real rise and grind. Yes. like we can do it. can make it. We're in a fully there's a twelve billion dollar industry that is there mostly to make women feel like we have this urgent need to be more grateful or to have a breathing practice or to be more hydrated But it's taken like a modern self, a feeling that you are not a person to be loved. P probleblem to be solved. You're now a project. You don't just have like a sunrise. You have a morning routine And I think all of that has really contributed to this really exhausted feeling of like urgency and but yet we kind of know that we're in a light apocalypse, so we're not quite sure what all this urgency is adding up to whichich is that the world is ending or I need to get this breath routine down. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. I mean, we have, I mean we do have a sense of like environmental fragility, we're so worried about AI. we're so worried about like the future of work. We're worried that like we have no experience between the value of what we do and our being paid for it. I mean, like there's especially in the young a sense that like, We're just not sure what all this work is for And yet, Everything you do have, you feel like you're just desperate to hold on to So a scarcity and a never ending Fix me up. Yeah, fix her up. Yeah. and up her. I think that quantified self is where we're at where we all have our Aura Rings, who's telling us that we're a little worried right now.'s your A little stressed out by. Can I tell you something? You're gonna tell me about your sleeep I want to tell you something. I'm gonna interrupt this anti consumer anti optimization. Yeah. H r I'm gonna call it what it is. It on a j. Sree a screree I think it's funny to interrupt you with this stip. It's a dip. Oh, it's wor. I'm gonna say it over there though. I'm not saying it to you. I I got a ninety on my sleep. I will say it too. I I always I do so many things for my sleep. And then we're going to get back to the main point. Yeah. I have heard about your sleep and I'm gonna need to more. You've talked about your sleep. I do talk about my sleep. I know you do. And I listen to sleep dumb podcasts and I do it all. I got fucking things. Two nights ago, I got a ninety when I usually get like a seventy seven to eighty two Did they say callall an architect? I love the te of who's writing this O ring copy? I'm sorry, did someone burn the barn down last night? Like what is this nineteen thirties man that lives in our ring? Ding ding, ding ding. Take a look. skky's the limit, baby That's The guy from the B fifty two' like, whyy is he watching me sleep? Like Santa. Yeah Back to your dad The best lab in the biz. Oh man. Anyway I got a ninety something and I and it said on my dumb ring in that it did have some dumb headline. Superman's got nothing on you, baby. And then it said, what did you do differently And I was like, wait, what did I do differently? And this is so boring, but it's almost over. I ate blueberries before bed Then I Google it, obviously, I go, I'm a researcher too. That's what that word means, researcher. We do research. You like Googling. Yeah, you got it You are an ivory castle of dignity. Intelligent. And a repose. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. both. I didn't wear this half blazer for nothing Wow, I'm quite taken with you. I'm really enjoying What an idiot I am in your presence. And be honest That' not kind of what you want Is that what all the work was for to make high on their horse podcast hs be like, why am I child? And It turns out I'm a real idiot I do think researchers are people that close Orandals with the scroll. Yeah, yeah yeah. doing this? If you about putting gloves on. Yeahes And a candle. researching. Yes,. Obviously. Yeah, I've worked in the archives. Our two schools they keep the candle close Anyway, blueberries have tryptophan and melatonina. Oh wow. So I tried it again. it's over, but it worked again. Oh my gosh. That's almost like you could just eat blueberries then. Well, I like what you're doing And you're kind of joking and a little bit serious. I'm going to call it ninetiney ten ten percent serious. But ninety percent bringing us back to the topic, which is I am. Like when you don't even know you've been indoctrinated into something, I've been fully indoctrinated into the self optimization mythos. And if you ask someone, if they're like, but I took a nap and then they're like, oh, but It's so that I can rest so that I can give more. It's like, well, then why is the giving more? Why is the like Why is there like key conversion that we're always doing math. It's always math I agree and I've been really Excited about like its a lot of it is reverse engineered and like totally false. Oh yeah. it's very thin statistical associations between small things. R repackaged as an existential mystery about how to have a good life. That's exactly right. That thans me ins. Even though the B blueberry thing is, you know, there might be, let's call it thirty percent valuable. There's seventy percent me going, look Yeah. I've controlled it Right? Yes, that's right. And then I can sleep. Yes. And then I can be a better person, better parent, all these things. Now your best life now, even though that phrase was invented by a tele evvangelist. Yes. You dropping some ostein on my pot. two thousand four. I read Did this all start with your best life now? It did. Can you trace it back? Yeah, Is that what we? It's just Wait is that how history works? You can trace it back. You can use I like how this started where you're like love. Do you even know your book title? Yeah, I researched it. You're like, no, you didn't, you did. Can you look into the past And figure out where ideas came from? Yes. I thought, forgive and forget. I thought you just didn't care about the smaller book that was also called Joyful anyyway. I would. I will always care about where ideas where like especially where like a cultural phrase comes from. my that's my That's say. Yeah. You love that. Everything happens for a reason, best life now manifesting. I can tell you. where everything happens for a reason Well, that American obsession with it came with the rise of cities and people became very rich and other people became poor, and they were looking desperately for explanations for why out of here. What? I mean, it's a bit' of course like an ancient like question is like what is the relationship between my effort and what happens. But like in terms of like an American idiom, it came from economic inequality Which we probably have even newer phrases for that because there's so much of that going on. Oh now we're just now we've fully rebranded positive thinking as manifesting. So it was like word of the year two years ago. But now if you imagine positive words and say positive words, then you can create reality Right is the theory. And you find this I' mean everywhere. This is TikTok. I say abhorrent. Oh, it's horrifying. Uiquitous. I Everywhere. W that what you're asking? No, no, no, I was trying to lean towards your feeling about it. Oh I wrote the first history of positive thinking, so I've been following this for a long time. I cannot believe that it has such durability. I can't believe it got fully rebranded for Gen Z. reallyally that belie they're on board with it. They they are I can't I play a game where I will only stop watching a reality show the moment they say that they're manifesting or that everything's happening for every reason. And why does it Peyton like me? Well that one's okay Yeah. Shell be like that one. shell be. This is fascinating. Okay. I Definitely I amm with you It feels super weird. I'm surprised that GenZ is into it And it's weird that it's people that are spiritual peopleeople kind of assume that I'm a manifesty person Yeah, you're not. And I'm not a man. No, I know, that's what I like about you. you're also so you're spiritual non manifesty will spend my whole life trying to take it down. I will. Really? Yeah. I mean, like this is I wrote The first history of it, a book called Blessed, It was like, I used history. research. Don't go back in time. as the example of the guy who doesn't know what history is. I may be that. Research it. use libraries. It's where they keep all the books together. Yes. So we can learn them now That's how we do it. We start feeling so inferior. I get me and my crrumbs together and we just burn it down and we go, Where's your null now? Three generations later, it's me and my boys believing that dimes cause blindness Dark Aes too, two point zero but we don't say two point zero we just go dark Aes and we think it's the first counting has come to an end at that point. And we don't know there was another dark ages. I can't wait. We need some history. please please, let's talk about Modern day in light of history, I'm so excited about that. but where are we now? We're on manifesting Yeah and that you want to take it down forever We had Joah Snd on the podcast. You don't know dor. Joe has beennd there? you're dropping the last word. What is the word? Despenza? Despensza? I'm surprised. No. Joe Despensz is a medical doctor who is a real like think ure feel better. I'm surprised you don't know. I' sort of wouldn't call it manifesting, but we talked a little bit although it it's sold in the same store as manifesting. But we talked a little bit about like thought police. It has like a very like, don't think that. you're gonna get in a car accident because it's called negative confession. They think that if you release negative words that you are bringing it into being. Right. It's anxiety is praying for something you didn't want. like have you heard that Isn't that one of the worst things ever? It's totally pathologizing negative emotion It's making negative emotion the culprit of what What's Rendering it like pathologizing, like making it negative, making it like it's a disease, making it like negative speech is disordered somet as opposed to honesty accurate framing, describing reality with words. Yeah. I mean So you're saying it's If you're having It's interesting. my example when we're talking about this is something that might not be accurate for somethingomet that is just like toxic and Not well, that's a judgment, but like you're having some You talk in your book about self worth scrapping together enough self worth to kind of like get out the door. So we all know what it feels like to be bombarded with like negative feelings And it does seem like that might reverberate into your life, not in a spiritual way, but in a Yeah. well I'm not going to make eye contact. I'm not going to ask for help. I'm not going to get Yeah. I'm not going to assert myself for anything. Yeah. well, I think that's the distinction though is like Do you think that The mind is a spiritual engine that creates reality.. And we've now taken like we're probably fifty years into being a therapeutic culture, meaning that most of our words are therapy words. We don't argue we feel We don't. And we have so u Thanks for sharing your truth I'm one of the best laughs in the biz. It like hurts me when when you think J in the bizz Go ahead, What? It like hurts me when you use therapy words.'s like ' it's it's perfect. It's just like It takes the objective nature of everything and then makes it a subjective, like just an I feel statement. R Wh just makes it based on your experience instead of based on reality. So now we've taken that feeling, okay, well now I'm experiencing things. And now we've tried to give it some spiritual oomph. And so now Now whatever you imagine, whatever you vision booreard, whatever you gratitude journaled, then it's as if you're just like. creating spiritual realities, and it's really hard to convince a therapeutic generation that they're not doing it Magical thinking Magical speaking, magical believing But magic is a fast word we try not to use because it's like Well, it is a form of mental magic is what we might call it, but we try really hard not to only say magic because it will it's like cheating the argument I see. It's like when you watch a movie with incredible special effects and you go, how do you do that? And they go, computers. Yeah. It carries too much. that am I hearing you? That's right. And so ye Well, people who don't think of themselves as being magical. I think that's what's useful about it, though, is saying, I think you only thought that you were taking lessons from therapy, but what you're doing is actually a religion And it comes from therapy, how this idea that we can make real? It has like a therapeutic base, meaning it takes feelings as being the most important part of who we are. It could be, you know, thought or it could be concrete, it could be science, it could be. But instead, we've taken our feelings and we've tried to imagine that it's our job as good believers to release those feelings into the universe. So in that way, we really have a whole generation of people who think that they're just being spiritual, but that it is actually a religion. It's called newew thoughtought. It was developed in the late nineteenth century. People just don't know that they're being actually extremely religious. I sometimes see those on YouTube. someomeone will upload like the audioobook of some book from like nineteen thirteen or something. I might be way off of the date, but it is a guy that's like As aan thinketh Yeah or like a guy being like, you go out and you say to the world todayoday. It's today. and you do not accept tomorrow for tomorrow is not promised to the coward. It's a very good radio voice I love that. Man ad does not Low Milaning is like a guy selling a book about like think about, know why that. Your lives Beautiful hair. Think about her milky skin She's yours. Say it S it, she's yours. I'm Dr. Lo Malali I would hire you in a heartbeat to do that for my classes. That's so funny. But that's is that where we is that when that starts? And is there like an American prosperity that's like booming that like makes people start to because okay, sorry, I'm really trying to keep up with you Billionaires don't get advice from billionaires because they'll tell you what they did for a million reasons, but they'll tell you what they did is why they're billionaires and they they're wrong. They're wrong. We're talking about the same thing, right? Yeah. So people might see the world changing and then they kind of take it personally. Are we talking about the same thing? Yes. And this it's I mean, American prosperity gospels, so the belief that you can ate Health and wellalth My sixth book. And that was my first book. I go by the Hebrew counting. I make you anti Semitic. I'm sorry. I count in my own way But now I'm antisementic for implying they count differently, which is a riff loosely based on reading in the opposite direction. Keep going. Is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I can trace I got there. I got there. I have a history of my mind. Like I'm actually a historian of my brain. I can tell you how I got somewhere It doesn't where we. Whure sounds like monologing, but some could call it history. It's the history of me Oh my Godd.. And I'm just lecturing to like every everyone. Actually, there was a really funny little section in a book cult I'll get there, but it was They worried that this new generation had such an individual sense of importance that they could only make a religion of them. And they're at a description based on this interview with this lady named Sheila. So they started calling it Sheilaism. She's like, I just look into my own heart. I'm like Sheila would probably do that. So this whole part of religious scholarship is like, oh yeah, that's just Sheila ism. Really? So yeah, you're religion of me. I'm a Sheila ism.'re Sheil she Doid they she hite? That's what they call them. She hitees? No, they don't. don't. Now we're taking I'm just trying to I'm just trying tom just trying to trick you. I like it That's good education. If you try to bait people into dricks and then be like, Now make you scared of history That's what we want to be This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Summer is funny. When you're a kid, it feels like absolute freedom, but sometimes you grow up and suddenly it's like a logistics nightmare, there's travel, family visits, camps, scheduling. It can be overwhelming. And one thing I've learned that if you don't intentionally make space for yourself, summer can become something you survive Instead of something you actually enjoy. And that's one of the reasons I am legitimately a huge fan of therapy. Therapy can help you better understand what you need, get clearer on your boundaries and make decisions that actually support your well being instead of just keeping everybody else happy. Better Help has over thirty thousand therapists that has helped more than six million people worldwide They match you with a licensed therapist based on a brief questionnaire. and if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time. You don't even have to say yes to everything this summer, but do find support in therapy. That is real advice. It's changed my life. sign up and get ten percent off at betterterHelp d. com slash weirdo. That's betterter HELp d. com slash weirdo. This episode is brought to us by our friends at Three Day Blinds. It's funny. We live in a world where our refrigerators are smart, our thermostats are smart, but too many people are still buying blinds like it's two thousand six, and there is a better way. Three Day Blinds is the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the US And what I love is they made the whole process ridiculously easy, streamlined, and modern, like everything else. They send a professionally trained design consultant right to your home, help you figure out what works best for your space and give you a free, no obligation quote the very same day. And if you're anything like me, that's a huge relief because measuring and installing blinds is exactly the kind of project That makes me have a panic attack and want to hide under my bed and regret everything that I chose. So three day blinds handles everything, the design, the measuring, the installation for you. plus they have thousands of options for every style and every budget, including blackout shades, which works awesome for our game room, light filtering blinds, motorized blinds, and even smart blinds that work with Alexa. That's the kind of upgrade that makes your whole house e better And right now you can get quality window treatments that fit your budget with three day blinds by heading to three, the number three day blinds dot com slash weird for their buy one get one fifty percent off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery for free, no charge, no obligation consultation. justust head to three day blinds com dot com slash weird. One last time that's by one, get one fifty percent off when you head to the number three, DAY blinds dot com slash weird This podcast is sponsored by our friends at Casper Mattress, one of my favorite sponsors because I love sleep. We talk a lot about self help on this podcast. We talk about spirituality, we talk about routine. There's nothing that's a bigger game change than getting a good night's rest. And our friends at Casper are here to help. 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Casper cASpR. com and save up to twenty percent on the mattress you deserve What's funny, I I want to get, I'm very excited to talk about AI in history because I take I've never I'm forty seven, so I'm right on track to start getting interested in this stam. What your civil warar era is in front of you. K. I can't wait for your diny glasses. Oh my God. and then artisanal coffee and I'm just gonna listen to audio of people reading letters back home. You could do the voice though so well. He, momom, It's, Lo Melane. No, that's eighteen thirties. You gott toa go back to like Dear D dear, William He William. I think of you on the front That's good. Yeah. do girl. I could do the girl. That was excellent. I think of you on the front. Imagine mailing a letter not with respect to a guy on the front. Yeah. That's hard. It's not gonna get N That's where I was going. You're the historian of my mind Oh, Sheila, I do love you. Oh my go. Also I'm really excited to know if any of what you're asking is on this piece of paper. you can read your own Grief I think you're trying to spell Kirkegard here. Yeah, I just read it phonetically. I love that How embarrassing Nobody knows how to spell Kirkegard. It's actually pronounced Kirkegur. Kikgur. It actually is. that's what I. He's an Anna. Kirkkegard's an anna K is what I realized in school is it's mostly people correcting other people on pronunciations they'll really only need to say once. K IE. K A G A R D How of am I here Yeah you need two A's at the end That's all it is. It's it' I'm just missing an A. It's from Denmark. so it's got a lot of A's. And a free bicycle. Yeah. That's right. I did. I took a bicycle. I went to go see his grave actually a couple yearsays ago. yeah for knowing that I didn't know that. Thanks for knowing up Is That' how you feel? That's what is Okay, so let me for fun. There is there's a couple things I want to talk about. One is The phenomenon that we do have an impact, our words have an impact. Yeah, right? I mean, like if'm kind to you We're doing it right now We're having this effect on one another. So like if I'm holding certain I'll use the low millane virtues, in my mind. So the mind has the capacity to like cling to certain things and let go of o. Yeah, but those aren't for shoes Yeah, that's what they would call them. No, they wouldn't. What do you mean? Virtues are durable qualities that you can cultivate over time. They're not feelings Virtues are like it's a behavior that's been. It's a character that you develop. It's like that's I mean, in Christian world we'd say like that's why we love the word virtue is it like carves out a place for like a habitual holiness Holiness, Is that the name of one of your eight books I like how much you know Bab. me. Does it make you feel bab? No, I mean Christian virtues are like I mean, as Christians, it's wonderful. It's like, how do we know that we can rely on ourselves to be a particular kind of person? That's why virtue language is so much more like steady and helpful to think about than feelings language Oh interesting. It's funny that I use the word virtue. Because then the more you behave that way, the more you can create feelings around it, but like it it's just like a it's a discipline. And you don't think that discipline is just breakable through a series of unistakable traumas? Well I'm can we have the ability to break almost every good part about human nature if we really try. Yeah, yeah. I think we can I'll give it two months. But I think it's I don't know. that's why I really like thinking about inststead of wanting to be part of a culture that just wants to feel good, I want to be part of a culture that like has a couple virtues it really cares about and is trying to like walk a path to it. like mutuality, like just even thinking of ourselves as belonging to other people or like a virtue that really matters to me is like courage How do we be people who expect that life requires more from us than would than we wanted to give I love that And we were talking about Richard Roy before we were rolling. and he talks about the first forgiveness being to reality. That's perfect. Have you heard that?? We're talking about the same thing, right? Yeah.. It's lovely. You keep checking out. That's good I really like that one. Yeah. he's like, we're obsessed about being forgiven, but how about you you get forgiven? Yeah How about you get forgiven out there? Well even like We werere talking about at the very beginning about like the very first thing you have to kind of like make your peieace with, I forget how you put it. but I think the very first world you have to decide that you're living in is the life you actually have. And I do think that requires a certain grace that you have to give alost like to yourself and then back to the world to be like, and this is what is. Forgiving reality. and then well, Byron Katie has that line where she goes, you can argue with reality, but you'll only lose every time.tly lose every time. You'll only lose every time. I really like. Isn't that good? Yeah. Well there is both of and then another Yeah, another Richard Rory says love is learning to say yes to what is Um, which some people don't like I've run into some resistance with that one. Just because there's sometimes people are in moments in their life. like maybe when you were diagnosed, it would be hard to say yes cancer. Yeah. But like you kind of do, right? I think the part you say yes to and this is This is the part I love about joy is I do think that there's a relationship to risk like Joy and riskers. Yeah. Like when you' reed feells You're gonna use I'm gonna to explain Joy and you're gonna try to use as many old timey words as possible, but not virtue. No that becausecause you didn't know what it was, and that's okay By definition ot Llearally, I'm intimidated by your intellect No, I explain joy and you're gonna goo ahead, bad feellllows, Joy and risk. Don't working suspenders, it's fine. But like I do think that when we feel how fragile our lives are, there is a moment where you just you want to say no. You want to say no to everything because you didn't pick it and it's horrific. And it's very ra In my case it was I was diagnosed with stage four cancer and we thought I would die that summer. And there was only horror in my heart. There was only like no, I don't want to do any of this and I'm terrified. But I do think that there is a very small Yes that you kind of have to find to the life that is. And if you say yes I do think there is this like mysterious thing that can happen, which is that you can get visited with like Pirie beautiful wholeness that in a moment In in just a moment it can say like it is actually so good. It's so good for you to be alive. And I think that big feeling is something that I was like, wait, that's not happiness. That's something deeper. because you weren't happy. No, I was not happy to be. But you were feeling joy. I felt weirdly joyful. first of all compomliment. I think I already said it, You're a wonderful writer. I mean, you should be eight books, Jesus Christ I imagine if I wasn't, I just kept four were bad.. Those are her learning learning. Yeah, that's so strong. I kept paying her to learn. That's right. She made the list. She's learning You will say that. She's roll scrappy. You're a great writer And it's evident right away And then you talk about joy being transcendent if I'm being honest, I started your book U a little snooty. I was like, this is going I was I was suspicious. This is going to be a middle aged lady book. Mbe or just honestly what you're kind of talking against, which is just like, Just just joy is ice cre. Choose joy. Dance parties. What? You do it You do it too well. Is that the real you? Comfortable jumpsuits That's absolutely what I thought it was I thought it was going be and look, respect to everybody making their stuff, but when there are books about like You know, here's ten I to to smile about today. Yeah. I The smile will find you I mean, we're riffing, but I hate it. And I'm a happy person. Like I dance in the kitchen. I sing in the shower. I fucking I have levity in my lifeugh. And I don't like when someone's like what? What do you got? What is it? You read me so fast? Well I know well I lost it. Weird. How did you know that? That's weird. That's 'cause you're like, I love you Im like lightightly over top of a deep and bubbling darkness. Yeah, well sure. ye That's your thing, b fellas I think o I'm going to put this back to you. I think one of the reasons I would consider myself a happy and we're joyful is a separate thing, but a joyful person as well Yeah, is because I have a really And u ive relationship with my grief and with with my darkness my sadness or whatever it might be. Would you agree that that's what we're talking about? Yeah, me too Yes and no way risk too, sorry, I just risk on that. Yeah. And like And And the darkness comes from knowing that things can be taken away in a moment. and knowing that is something that you can't unlearn. Yeah And that's what happened to you. Yeah. and then This is what I love what you wrote about joy being transcendent. It lifts you out of your life. Yes. So this is my bad book title, happappy for No Reason. It's like we're not telling we're not asking you to be happy Yeah with what's happening.. L the difference between like and love, like you don't have to like your neighbor, loving your neighbor. Yeah. Yeah, I would say happiness is a ton of likes I mean, it is.'s it'll feel like ease, it'll feel like I like this and I like this and my friend's gonna to call me later. It will feel like accumulated luck Jump in here. It's the movie Inside Out where at the end of the day, they're looking at all the balls and most of them are yellow. and she goes, That's a good day. Yes. And I'm like, That's happiness. That is happiness. But her name is Joy. Yeah. Which shouldn't be Joy. No. Look, I love inside Out, Pete Doctor. I love you. I love the sequel. I'm just saying like that is the American or the modern day mythology. my day is Most likes. They think that if you like kind of climb a ladder of good feelings and then the bonus round is like, and know I'm joyful. But it's not like that at all. And you look back on it and you go, I was joyful because you had so many wins. Yes, that's right. They are wins. and that's why I mean, for people who are lucky, they are more likely to be happy. Those people are more likely also to be wealthy and to have had many lovely things happen to them all at once and to have good health and like all the things that circumstantially make a life good. I mean, and so when people talk about like building a life, they are this is a happiness paradigm and there's nothing wrong with happiness, but it will feel like ease. It won't feel like joy, which is big and bright and awake. And joy is weird because it will have both like the reward systems, it hits your dopamine and it hits like all the things that feel wonderful. but it also engages our stress system which means that you can be in a an insane situation and somehow feel temporarily whole, even if unlike happiness, none of your circumstantial stuff lined up. And that's what you experienced maybe with some practice or something maybe it wasn't practice I'm making it earned Yeah, knowew nothing. I was I I mean, and this is, I think why like that moment in the hospital is so shocking and it's because it highlights like weirdly mysterious, unearned quality of joy where Nothing lines up. Everything has come apart and frankly, like I wasn't trying to be a good person. I wasn't. Like I'm usually trying pretty. Pre prettyty hard. I'm anyry' doing it. Do it all I'm just like, I'm gonna to be good. I'm gonna be kind, I'm gonna be. I was like angry, bitter, heartbroken, devastated. Yeah ye yeah. And then to weirdly feel bubble wrapped into this kind of surreal likeike you're in love with the world. Yeah that I just think people don't get how weird Joy is. Yeah It seems like I think you and I might use different language But I think we have a similar philosophy, which means there's a non conceptual quality to joy and an irrational quality to joy. And I would say this is where we might part ways. I like you were already giving me a worried face because you know I'm going to crucify you. You're gonna to crucify me and I won't rise again. I'll just be one of the regular guys Joses. People don' Jesus Joses. Yeah. He just stayed dead. And Peter, my name'sake surivied dead. Oh yeah, it went badly for him. Dead. Upsside down. Yeah. Yeah, that's how we were. It couldn't have been good the regular way, it wasn't enough where Eneagram fours. Ened it. Oh, you're so special. Are you? I didn't know you're an Anneagram four Your gif is for no one. You need to know Peter was crucified upside down. You need to know that Enneagram fours are individualists. And then you love this podcast. You're like, this is my shit. Everyone else just turn on some other part They turn on smartless. That's fine. I get it. These s These ifts will will shew the crowd away That's fine though. It's hold on, it's gonna get insideer on inside. It's true. Old Millenni? It is a little bit your old Millenni I I think joy is our nature It's what we are Are you Christian Do I work at Duke Divinity School? I don't I'm gonna dude, what is happening with this? I can't know every. Duke Divinity School prorofessor, I teach pastors. I talked to a guy who taught at Harvard And he didn't know the Christ was that sometimes Jesus was speaking as Jesus, the man, and sometimes he was speaking as the Christ.'m like I can't assume. I know you can't say you're the most Christian, but I'm the most. You can't be more Christian. We're in the one I'm in the one hundred percent category. You're one hundred percent died in the w. can't even Be more Christian. It's the worst. It's the best. It just keeps happening. This is what goes right under that Okay, let's wr it under. Yeah Just put a little crystos, you? across? Yeah. And and I'll sing I'll sing worship songs to sing out. As at the help of her What one was that? That was all about. I was making it was and make my ching And the load takes my hands. and then the girls go, And the coffee tastes are better Pour thever g in likes hand. The water is the coffee And the Lord he hears my life. And I put the bd on my toast and I use holy light knife. Life I did you're a fugggin. I used to play at weddings. I play the cello and I feel like I've heard one thousand versions. They all that. 'a my favorite one was and it was so great to have a cello just to like slowly put my head behind But the bride groom came up to the front and then they like linked my arms and they're like, tomorrow morning when you wake up. S suong will not appear and then together they were like I will be here so. And there's just like light tears coming down my face. It was like, Whatere you love that? I was like, I need more than one hundred dollars an hour for this Oh because you hated it. It was It was it was it was I've never seen the bride and groom sing vows I'd never seen it again. It's the only time. Those were their vows. That was their promise is a chelly one. Are you listening guys? A floating in the moat? Him a crowd. you ever stop c youes? I will be your coat Hello You're like I. And then I just did Paca Bell's canannon over and over again. Just like hop when they would come back. Nice. Thanks Okay, I'm going to spend the rest of our time together trying to figure out what flavor Christian you are because that riff sort of makes you feel more on, I don't want to make it about sides, but let's make it a bento box. Everybody's part of the lunch. You might be well Richard talks about being on the edges Are you? Yeah, Do you feel that way Well, I Yeah, I mean I grew at Monite and Menonites are inherently misunderstood.. Everyone thinks they're ammish. Farm workers who just build flat pack furniture really quickly. Nice. Yeah, we're handy. If you have like a cheese wheel, I can roll it down a hill for you If So youre up Men andite But do I'm going to push playfully back at your premise that the professor of Divinity at Duke would be a Christian. That was ridiculous. Really? Yeah. There's only a few divinity schools in the country and we mostly teach Christian theology. Otherwise we wouldn't be called a divinity school I guess I'm misunderstanding, like it's the Divinity school. it's like a separate one. But go ahead push push back. No, no, no, I'm glad I did. now I understand becausecause like, Harvard Divinity School prorofessor is also a Christian. These are like Christian Well, Harvard is one of the only schools that also ordains like secular and humanist chaplains, but that's not very common. that's like distinct for Harvard I'm learning a lot. M. This is a movie I haven't seen before. or are starring in because you're busy starring as popcorn purveyor number three becausecause I can't own the cranberry bog That's exactly what you can't do. You don't have the sincerity to run a cranberry bar bark. Barg bark. I lik that it was barg It soften the emarnishment bark. bark. Which makes me think you and I are just clowning, but there are moments where someone really is admonishing somebody and they say a word wrong. And I've never deser. You would never deserve that. That's why you can't run the bark. And then he storms out and everyone goes, It's real times and then they go, didid he say bark? And everyone laughs That's the gift of comedy So you're not a Menonite anymore? Yeah, I'm a Menonite. You're still a Menonite. Yeah. Okay Do Do you want me to just explain it or do you want to just free associate for a while? I'll just guess. Yeah, I had a feeling that you would prefer a guessing game where you don't want to learn. I look at life like guessing. You're like, no, no,.'re with disease. you wear glasses. This is the fastest way to know somebody is not ask them, but just randomly associate while you them correct you. Yeah, and then free associate with whatever they say. It more like battleships I'm trying to get the banight but it's you only want you only want this much information. That's right. And it's only my turn That's exactly what you want B twelve. Eactly. Well, yeah, I guess I didn't want to burden you with telling me what a Menonite modern Menonite Well, it just will be like my name is Kate Bowler. I am a professor of history at a Divinity school where we teach Christian pors. Yeah. We teach all kinds of different denominations. I wrote a book about prosperity Gspel. It was my first one. It was my first one. You can't engineer joy I have been very sad in my life and just going through there I've been very sad in my life because I almost died of cancer. Oh that's where we were, by the way. We were talking about our definitions of joy. and I asked you if you're a Christian Yeah. And I was saying using And that made me laugh. Right because I worried about your research I know Come on. We're here to talk about joyful anyway. I could either research the book or you. I made my chooy I listen to the wrong, joyful anyway. Okay. Joy being that your nature. Yeah. What word would you use there, would it be your soul? Like the nature of your soul? I think that we like in our souls have a natural capacity for joy. and I think that we long for it. But aren't we in that sentence saying like the soul is changing? It has a capacity for joy. Well we have a I think we're built for it. and like I think we know what we have the capacity for because I mean, it's like It's like plastic or crystal. like that's how we know something's transcendent. like it rings through us. And I think Joy is one of those things that like everybody has an innate ability to be joyful, but it's also like Carlbart said Joy is it's a gift, but it's also a task, meaning something we have and we can get, but we can also like cultivate that quality. We can be someone who's more and more likely to be joyful. Oh interesting The language I would use and I'm only because I think you're brilliant and I'd love to hear your response. I think we reveal it. We don't cultivate it so much as we get out of our own way and the never changing quality of what we might call our soul soul. Bark Bark or awareness. Yeah is free of conflict, it's clear, it's spacious. Yeah. It's wide open. It's made of a yes as a yes quality. I love all of that. So we brush it away. So when you achieve something, when you do something, you get a brief taste This is Rupert Spyrey. He goes the cessation of a desire. Like I want this drink. I get it. I drink it. ever so briefly, I get like my mind, no longer seeking or resisting anything just kind of stands exposed for a moment. Yeah He would say you taste your true nature in that moment. You call it happiness, you could call it joy When I heard you talk about Joy being like transcendent. Yeah, that sounds That's that ringing feeling, that sense that we can be kind of it reminds us that we are It gives us a strange sense of being part of everything Yeah, yet somehow belonging to ourselves. Yeah, ye. So it is like a home comoming. It's like ye. And but transcendence is funny that way because like because it hits us, it reminds us also It is a returning to ourselves, but it's also it makes us feel eternal. And so I just think it reminds us in that way of like, are I guess like the divine part of our nature. I don't think we would feel that way otherwise Yes And it's funny because I would say those times, when we talk about being eternal This is also Rupert. He talked about Eternal doesn't mean extending forever in time. It means outside of time So it is it is something that we experience a lot. You might think of it as like tuning out, but really I think you're tuning into what you actually are. but your mind looks back on that experience and goes, that was nothing. It doesn't know what to do with it. so it just goes like it's non objective and it's non conceptual. So it doesn't doesn't prioritize it. But so so much of those Diagnosis moments where you feel this bubble wp. What did you say? bubble wrap It's It's transrational. It's completely It's even irrational., but it's transrational is better. It's outside of that category But you've had those experiences. Well that's what we're talking. And I do think I mean one thing that's not outside of ourselves, so there's a cousin to Joy and that's bliss. Bliss has a self erasing quality. It's like, I mean, that's why people when they're on hallucinogenics or whatever they might talk about bliss. and that's not joy. Joy is actually like b it will make you it will light you up and this is why like delight is such a key thing. It's so tailored to your weirdness. Like for me, it's absurdity I love world's largest objects. I have visited hundreds of ples worldor's largest ball of twine, world's largest Dhydrated bear legs. You can wear the legs For an extra fifty, you can wear them What did he just say? You heard me. All you see is the emblem of this cigarette For an extra seventy five, Don't finish that What are you allowed to do for seventy five? Leave, leave, leave. No. You saw dehydrated bear head. Okay, keep going though. you love absurdity. love a mystery spot. Delight is like will carve out a certain place in you that it won't for other people. for my dad who believes that conditioning is God's promise that we never have to go outside. I I remember that. He also zooms with your son every day? Yeah, he does. What That's when I realized your book was science fiction. Look that? The're best friends They are. It's really cute. That's unbearably adorable. Yeah, they mostly talk. As far as I can tell, they're like really into whatever Winston Churchill might have been feeling. How old is your son? He's twelve He's in winy. He's in a very dreamy place right now. He's like, That sounds amazing. We're building you know, go carts and sounds' talking about and you have your dad feeding the fires of historical insanity. Yes. and wearing like those things that hold up your socks. It's just a different. Teaching a young boy about zeelins See? I'm demonstrating applied learning Partial credit. He does know a lot about Zeppelens. Yes. I remember Uh okay Are you saying that delight makes us more if joy is an accident Yeah. Practicing delight makes us more more susceptible. There's I think three things we can look for as kind of like the edges of joy. And one of them is delight. be someone and that's where some of that yes, like some of that agency comes in is like, can you be someone who says yes to delight? There are people who do not want to be delighted. Yeah. And we have met them all the time. Yeah, it's improper Yes Yeah, yeah. I thought he' said Tim proppper. likeike a guy that youpp him I was like, Tim's the worst and refuses to be delighted P proper he's a rapp He's proper Tim Proper But it is very pleased to say Everybody in my day to day is an authentic, unlocked person.. You know, like an unlocked iPhone.ike they don't have the restrictions on. And every once in a while I meet somebody where I'm like o, you don't even know how you feel about things. You don't know your opinion. You don't know what you like You'd rather die a lot of them are two. They'd rather serve you than look take a look at what they're actually excited about. I realize too, like I mean, especially when you've got a problem that people find very difficult to relate to, it can be increasingly easy to be that person who gets walled off from delight. I made a weird rule when I had cancer that like I would just find a couple things B. could like when they wanted to be loving toward me that that I was like, yeep, these things officially delight me. And one was I was like, I just love and I just picked like Foreign junk food and gummy bears. I got like a thousand pounds of gummy bears. I hate gummy bears, it turns out People loved knowing. Whata you had to figure out you didn't like gummys? I think about the twentieth pack, I was like, I think I've hit my gelatin limit. Like is this all comrom horses to whoves? Yeah, anyyway. I'm with you Can I We're going to come back to delight and the things that delight you That's what this finger means There's something that I made up. It's called the Kimlin scale. This is almost over. One out of ten And a ten out of ten is something that you ate or drank It tasted exactly how you thought it would taste. Yeah. Red Gatorade is a ten on the Kimlin scale Gammi bears are a two? Yeah Yeah, that's a really good argument. Right? Yeah, it's good ar. You put one in. I remember the first time I ate when I'm like, This is what all the buzz is about The idea of Cherry went walking through a rubber factory To That's generally two Totally agree. Right And Oreo is ten. Even an apple, I think an apple is like maybe a nine. Yeah e going unless it's a red delicious. Yeah. I also love Japanese junk food I think finding a weird, very cheap way to be for other people to participate and that's just happened. Very generous, by the way. Well, what you did was very generous. I wanted to find a thing. I made like I started making gingerbread competitions where I would build a mega church. every year that people could help choose I did a lot of Lakewood Church, which has its own exits in Texas. What do you mean it has its own exits? It's a mega church that's so large. It has its own dedicated highway exit So in my gingerbread world, it got its own highway exit and had its own If you hit the M and M, you went too far That is f At what point Does the mega church just go, We're the Vatican? We're the American Vatican. I can't imagine the power of being the pastor of a church that has its own exit. And how you have that in every argument you're in. Like writing you a ticket like, Oh, really? What exit do you take to get to work? Oh, just Beverly Oh, that's interesting. Yeah it's called the name of W.. So maybe crumple that, tick it up. That's a lot of power. It is a little too much. I'm just kiding throwing some shade. I don't even know what that is. Keep going so. But find ways that other people can access share your delight. And then you get to ' and that's the other thing about happiness. happppiness is very brittle, but joy is actually highly socially contagious. I love that. whichich is like which just happ said it's very brittle Like if like one bad mood, it just falls apart. And I think that's why our good vibes culture is actually not very generous. It's always trying to police other people's bad moods. And I think it's ' happiness is just so brittle. It's a divinity te You have a PhD. You wrote eight books, five of them were good I respect you. It's not gender. It's's a it's a lifestyle I researched you more than most guests. It's not disrespect It's my life If you saw my life You wonder if I don't care, I don't care about you as much as I don't care about other people. In fact, I cared about you slightly more. I like I walk in a room going like, I think there's cookies in here and then I see the sheen of your sword that you deliberately dance in the moonlight. and I'm like, what's that? The guest? And then you go, And all my clothes fall off except my underwear Like you're so good. It's not full new today. It's just like a little shake. Yeahful. Stasteful. You're a hundred percent your j. mean, let's keep it. Let's keep it tasteful or you turn into a A leaf Listen You're a samurai and an assassin. You put it on your business cards. Why? Becauseuse I need ownership of your success. That's why ust trying to like callall myself out before you can. Is it because I need ownership of your success? Yes. So I can somehow be associated with you. so people can say, who's said to put Samurai on your business card, U they P Jomes? And they'll go, Well, he must be brilliant. Yes. I'm using you to bolster me What a nightmare For me, I mean for you, to be with me neverever had one like this. I love it. Oh It's so alive. so very, so very alert. So very This is what fear feels like? Is it joy? Is Joy and feareds. Are they bed fellows maybe This episode is sponsored by our friends at Article. We just got Article new lounge chairs. We did a whole upgrade of our backyard thanks to our friends at Article and it looks fantastic. It feels fantastic. I've never fallen asleep sitting outdoors more in my life and that's real. It has so much to do with these high quality, modern but comfortable Well made pieces of furniture, that's what Article is all about. The quality is there. There's no some assembly required nightmare. and you can tell a lot of care went into the craftsmanship of everything that you find at Article. That's what they do. They make it easy to create a stylish home without spending a month researching furniture. 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There is no reason that our leftovers should end up in a landfill, but that's the final destination for about a third of the food we grow Our ancestors would be confused. They use their food scraps as compost, or as animal feed, or in weird soups, all the stuff we did before garbage was invented Composting is hard work. Living with a bucket of rotten food on your counter is gross. Most food goes in the trash because It's easy. And these days we'll take any easy we can get But now there's something easier Pop your scraps in a mill food recycler It looks like a kitchen bin and an iPhone had a baby It takes nearly anything, even meat and bones. It works automatically. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never smells When you finally empty it, you've got these nutrient rich grounds. Use them in your garden, pour them in your green bin, or have mill get them to a small farm. so the food you don't eat can help grow the food you do. just like it should be It's why I own a mill, why I invest in mill, and why I'm still obsessed with my mill If you want to get obsessed too, go to mill dot com slash wiser to get seventy five dollars off. That's mill dot com slash wiser for seventy five dollars off Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy moocha Rappuccino drink? or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel maybe, orr white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Rappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries What were we saying though? We're talking about, oh, I'm really moved by what you're saying about the generosity. So happy being so brittle. Yeah. Brilliant but also like the vulnerability and the love of telling other people what you like. And especially men that I grew up with just didn't do that. Yeah. And like Look, I'm not dragging my dad, but like we would give him a gift and he always said, just exactly what I wanted, which is like It's funny. On one hand, it's very funny On the other hand, I remember being a kid being like, what do you want? like He's trolling everything you do. R. Before that was a term. That's so funny. Me and my brother have talked a lot about and I love my dad very much, but we talked a lot about that where I actually think my father's generation thought being given a gift. was like a slight somehow. It's like you thought You thought you knew something I needed that I didn't have. So it was like It was like fuck you. So my dad would open it and go, Fuck you. I didn't want this. R. I'll fine. rightight? Yes. So there's something beautiful and the again, I love my dad The opposite of that is being very generous and saying, I like gummy bears or I liked gummy bears. Yeah. I think there's There's something about Any experience that seems to like put you behind a locked door It makes you, I mean, illness, divorce, like just major difficult life transitions. It's like it exiles you to another planet and people are like, well, no, I don't want to get there. Right. And but you moved. So R. I live here where we lived. So The cult deac is going strong. And we're all still having a good time. So if you move You didn't mean to. I think there's just something about giving people back a sense of your accessibility. You're like actually like windows are still open, all the doors are unlocked. Thats footold like. Yeah. That's why I like having a group that watches, I actually I'm thinking about a specific group we still watch Lost togetherog. And how sweet that was. That's really. And how was so much more than the show. And they just wanted to be together. They did. In the end. All of you. Also, I really appreciate your empathy there because when I got divorced, I remember really feeling exiled and I was like, what the fuck? And I was in a non Meaning non sanctonious group I imagine. That's what I was trying to say, Thankk you. It wasn't religion. It was just like, I'm in a group of people that have also maybe been divorced, but like people treat it like a plague. and I have to imagine diagnoses are the same. They thought they could catch divorce from me Yeah. And so the married people didn't want me. And then the single people, I don't know what they wanted cocaine See for you to just be young again I mean, tell we are we having the same conversation? like that can So the bridge that you build is saying, Hey, here are the things that delight me. Yeah. And I think like You want to be able to build that bridge of maybe like little sparks for joy with someone else. and I do think it's hard for some people to find it even in themselves. Like if you're like A M and Night Christmas is a great example of how you can take a premise like I'd love to give a gift And then make it into a set of very difficult to negotiate transactions where your mother in law takes out a big thing of tube socks and it's like your present was two dollars less. so you get a tube sock. Camp, camp, you can you give her one of your just evening it out evening everybody because was a spreadsheet? Is about fairness? There was a spreadsheet But the feeling like Med and night Christmas is you get some tube socks, you get some tube socks. And the idea that there's standard issue gifts, I think is a good metaphor for like there's no standard issue joy. You're not going to be able to go look at someone else and be like, I love man cartoons I should definitely live in I would love them as well. It's good. good's good. You're a man who's converversant in culture. I'm picking up all the cues. not. Do you say your cues? I'm picking up all the cues You speak French now. Oh wait, you're bilingual. Well. What did you say earlier? C. Simis. Simis That's a Richard Ror, You should fucking love this shit. Humbly and proudly return what you've been given. It's beautiful. He says it' the meaning of life b and proudly and there's a paradox in there and that's right up your alley. I love paradox. Pe think I know in my Th things are true at the same time, but let's not talk about how. And then they just go weird. Th things are true at the same time. Magic and computers. Paradox. Yeah. It's a word we use to skip over the topic. That's right is it really It's two true is that when you put them close together, it's like they stand each other up. Like they they make each, they highlight both the truth of it, but also the mystery between them. And like like humbly and proudly. like the closer you stack them, the more it exaggerates like the beauty that's only found in the contradiction And the space in between. You have to have a little mystery. And they only they define each other. humble divinees proud. Yeah. and it's both. Yeah. and it's Both and is another big I know you know B and. What's up? Both and. Both and Comfortable jumpsuits. What are we saying right now? Richard loves both hands Yeah. but that's dead and alive, human and God. Well, I mean this very both. Why Christianity is very neurologically stressful is it's full of paradox that we don't want to be full of paradox kingom of Godd is here, but not yet. I have to if I want my life, I have to give it away. I mean just God, pick a lane.. Just pick one and I'll do that. Yeah. God's like, no, sorry. Sorry, R and this is the popular one Rro I mean, Islam is Smoking us, I'm pretty sure And numbers wise, you should know this. I don't think so. Really? No, I think we're ish Ish We're not that far away from each other And then there's the Mormons. Oh man, they'll do it. They're going for getet it done. They're going for it. man. Talk about no disrespect to the LES. They got good marketing. Yeah. Family marketing. It went a lot better than when Jehovah's witnesses were like, well, we're just jW dot org. Don't ask what we are anymore. Nice try. Nice try We have our own newspaper, nice try. We had some really sweet JWs that came to our house for forty years and gave my dad a pamphlet and just never brought anything up. And I was like, guys, you need to want it more. Yeah. Jerry answered the door for forty years I guess I wouldn't have just ask them. I wouldn't have let that slip burning in the bosom You've heard of Jesus. Did you know there's more to the story? It sells itself. I'm not even Mormon. No, it's I always want se Yeah, I always want a sequel. I wouldn't want a sequel. I'm sorry Avatar Way of W? Exactly. E got Eactly. G Tlight then New Mon, you think I didn't want Jacob to come and be part of that story? Oh Okay, sorry, but that's how we feel about Jacob I just started watching drama with Pattinson because I have kids, so I have to watch movies as they're intended in one hour chunks. He's a babe. That's all. That's all I wanted to say. You brought up Twilight. What a babe. Oh my gosh, when I was writing my dissertation, I was get it. He' so sad. I was so sad. I think I was so bored and I think I was like, is this what adulthood is And I started going to see Twilight the movie, like during the day. For you. And then the custodian came in was just like, Ma'am, like can I clean the theater? And I was like, I'm watching. I'm busy right now. W during the movie? I was the only one in the theater. full price ticket I'm sorry, whereere do you have to be It was what? It was the taste of shame I hate that for you That's another therapy kind of thing I'll take it. It makes me feel good. reallyally Okay, we're we you're dropping some real wisdom and I'm feeling just speaking a lightburden that I know that there are just like amazing corridors to just lead you down and you'll kind of go You're a good guest. so you'll go wherever. But like when you talk about how brittle happiness is, I'm like that's whyy this is a good podcast and thank you because that's valuable. Thanks. And the difference I mean, do you have anything more like that? I good Do like a whole book or Yeahah, Joyful anyway. Don't get the wrong. You know what? One thing I thought 's kind of interesting and weird about Joy too is CS Lewis calls it a a stab of longing. L you know you've been joyful if you feel like you've been stabbed. Oh wow. And that kind of made me laugh because like that slow accumulated thing of everything going your way with happiness I think knowing for people who are like experiencing despair or going through just like long seasons where things are not going their way. Yeah. Knowing that it can pop up maybe hopefully less like a stab I think is raomly is really refreshing because it's not math. L you don't have to deserve it, You don't have to be in a wonderful frame of mind, you can just like, but you but you have to imagine that you are someone who even could be surprised. And so weirdly some of the joykillers are not sadness and they're not you know, despair weirdly, it's actually like routine and efficiency. And frankly, much of what AI in this new world will require of us will make us less and less likely to be joyful. because we'll have less purpose and Not about purpose, but like efficiency and optimization and feeling like everything you do is predictable will keep you head down unsurprisable Wow Yikes a doodle doo. Yourers. I know. My daughter and I say, Yakadoodle do. whichich I think is really fun. And then it sometimes turns into acc Yeah.ee, I'm just keeping this in ap part I can understand. What you said was very deep and interesting. stab. but so AI The more predictable life is, the more streamlined things are, the more unconscious we become and the more don't let put word in your mouth. But I'm thinking of unconscious, like, I guess if we think of joy as like that kind of awakenness that startles you alive again. Yeah. then yeah, I would say more conscious. The thing I't like about that language though sometimes is that we get so neo Buddhist in our language that everyone just ends up saying the same thing over and over again. Iar that. celebrity interview, they're like, I feel so awake right now. You're like, I don't know what that means for you anymore. O than that you're having a really good red carpet they say that all the time. I feel really awake right now U Okay, a lot there. kind of stuck on how yucka doodle do that is. But where were you? I guess also because like Stuff that focuses just on the present, like I just need to be really conscious, I'll just conscious living, everythingverything I do,'ll just be intentional. I think that gets us right back to another different homework paradigm. I just really need And now well, I think everyone is moving away from practice and just like I am a job. Now my job is awareness. I think what's kind of nice about Joy is like actually lets you kind of float from the past to the present to the future. like you don't have to always like be hyper in the present. L if you're in a long, terrible season s it's a nice thing to look back into your own past and look for like little breadcrumbs of times where like you couldn't have You't you didn't expect something to happen and then look like kid you couldn't have It turns out there was, you know, ike I love hearing people surprise at like at like loves they didn't expect, people that And so I think being able to look in your past for reminders of joy is just like another beautiful way of saying like, look, the present doesn't have to be everything. Yeah, yeah and not to be this, but reminiscing happens in the same wakeful presence that everything happens in. I really hateated when people say that. What do you mean? They always obsess about likeake I always am sitting next to like some kind of neuroscientist is always like, and you know everything is happening in the present, right Wait, so tell me what you don't like about it? Well, because certain spiritual like paradigms will try to only have an account of the present. They collapse everything into the present. that That's really problematic for people who can't be It's not a good theology of personhood, to be honest. Like it doesn't take into account people children, people with memory loss, there's all kinds of versions of ourselves that we're going to be that aren't hyper attuned. So you need a story about personhood that isn't just like, stay awake to the present or you'll be lost forever. But anything that would not be staying awake in the present is awake and in the present You guys just repeat the same thing over and over again at this point in the argument. So I'm just gonna I't think we were arguing. I'm saying like this idea, it's more of a recognizing that you can't leave. No you can't, but do we have a story that is bigger than our awareness of ourselves? Yes. And in that version, that's why That's why I think a lot of the Neo Buddhist language that keeps us in like a just You are a story about the present That's why I think Christian theology has something really lovely to say about like the past and the future. There will be That's why knowing that there's God who holds your story. that is beyond your ability to interpret yourself is I find very relaxing because there will be huge parts of your life that you can't account for and it's but like what holds your sense of you differ. out of I'm leaving. G stop. My Uber's here. I also just for the sake of conversation was trying to find Christian passages that support that idea. All I came up Llies of the field. I bet you were gonna lilies of the field,.' gonna lilies of the field you? or anxiety That one nobody's gained a minute of their life. I was gonna say before Abraham was I am. That supports the idea that' being that we are. That's just God being God though, oututside of time. That's not about Abraham Yeah, God being outside of time. Yeah. But then what is sustaining you God. Yeah. So your essence is also outside of time No, that's not how people work. So we stand apart from God I like that we're gonna go like we're like, this is a podcast that's also about the Trinity We can get into the Trinity. The divine ansance is right there. Let's read it. You know what's funny is there's a couple spots on this u my joyful Annuary tour that I was like, I bet you anything is this is gonna devolve into Rayne Wilson asking me questions about the Trinity. Oh my God, and it is. Are you doing his podcast? He was on my book tour, but yeah I love his podcast. Is What do you mean? He was like moderating your book tour. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. Yeah And he talked about the Trinity. I was like, I refuse, sir I refuse. You can't make me I can't make you talk about the trinity right now Okay I think for everyone listening. Yeah, just as a gift. as a gift back. So what are the joy killers? You mentioned that What we're talking about delight, sharing your interests. Yeah social interaction. Yeah, the three like the three kind of cousins like the things you can look for is you can look for delight, you can look for gratitude, notot because you can gratitude your way into it, but because when you're joyful, because that's that moment of temporary wholeness, you'll just say, thank you. Like it's so good to be alive. And it will and the other thing you should look for is like a sense of hopefulness because it will shout down despair that says that nothing will ever be good again. But it's like in that sudden moment, you're like, but wait, like the world is suddenly full And for someone who's just like lost somebody or isn't sure if the world is still for them again. just little kind of tastes of hope should be like, wait a minute, let me just like stay there for a second and see if that's a place that Joy can find me. That's interesting. One of the things I wrote on my ill prepared notes is that people need cancer to be inspirational, to be comfortable with it Right? It's It seems in line with what we're tal. I really hate it when people are like, you know it's the dying Teach us how to live You know, what taught me how to live? liivving Living again. Just living That was pretty much it. There is something particularly offensive about sometometimes I feel that I'm like, uh, the strength that we just need from everybody, every disadvantaged or diagnosed person, we go like, okay, well then you can pay out Well, what they normally want is for you to have lost something truly horrific then you they want to hear about it in a way that makes it feel like it's actually okay because you gained it back in perspective, so you're pretty much even. Well, that we're back to everything happens for a reason And now the reason is You you just you learned some powerful lessons. I had so much mail. I've gotten a lot of mail over the years, but my favorite was this really a guy who obviously wasn't listening during the sermon And it was like Gary, Gary from Indiana, and he just wrote me this like super pissy note on the just directly on the church bulletin, about why God was just to let me die. just was the word. Like he's just figuring out the fairness and it was probably okay. And then the part I really felt offended by was that he was so lazy he didn't just recopy it. He just mailed me the bulletin And I was like,ook, sir, you think I don't teach pastors. You think I can't look up your church and call your pastor He gave me a big clue. Gary. How to find you My dad finds people he signed the book to that returned it That's what researchers are. Sorry So just. just. They want everyveryone wants things to be fair and they want your suffering to be in an economy of fairness. It's similar to screenwriting. I'm just bringing this into my realm. when we in comedy too, there's a real system of justice going on. And if somebody Like I have a joke right now I'm working on where I'm trying to explain how I think it's crazy that all we do is flip channels now you know, because scrolling is just flipping channels. And in the eighties and nineties, if you wanted to establish in a Godzilla movie that somebody was going to die and you are not going to care. You would show them in their apartment flipping channels in a white tank top eating food and they'd just be mindless and And then God's would step on them and you'd cheer. because we want death, but we want it to be just and we wanted to kill who we choose is worthy of dying. Yeah, someone who's already wasting his time. Yeah, this guy was a waste. Well I mean, what else it's the opposite of enjoying or savory If it was like kid at a birthday party. Wrong. Exactly. And that's where you get there we do have some of that in art, which is like, I'm gonna flip that on its head and have the good person die or whatever. But for the most part And jokes have that too. and I think that's one of the reasons why we love There's certain shows that betray this Game of Thrones sort of famously doesn't follow that rule and that's why people find it so shocking Yeah. But like for the most part, ye we have a very It's not as easy to spot as it was in like the eighties and nineties, but we have a a set of rules that we follow and that's in movies and TV, who dies? And in jokes, who dies? Wh wins and who loses in a joke? is important. I guess it would be difficult. I mean, it' it is hard It's hard to create coherence in short periods of time. And our desire, I mean, this is why we don't like paradox is we don't like things that are I we find them neurologically stressful. Yeah. we don't like randomness. We don't like we are pattern seeking creatures Yeah. jokes are patterns, stories are patterns, and if they break, we only want them to break the archetype in small ways in which it a benign violation. ye benign Is that a term? Yes. that's I didn't make it up a joke is a benign violation. And then if you go too far, what you mean is you've upset or shocked us too much. Yeah. Yeah ye. Oh that's love. I have that line and comedians aren't supposed to have a line. I watch some comedi. I'm like Gikes, You know what I mean? Everybody has a line But yeah Yikes. Ys a little do Yeah Yeah I think that we have We want to deserve everything. We want to see people deserve things, and it's hard for us to find satisfaction and things that are undeserved. and and But then like Do we really want to be people who have to deserve everything all the time? wanting to earn every good thing has like just worn worn me out. Yeah ye. That's honestly why I wanted to write about joy instead of like mostly what I write about, which is like deconstructing cultural myths is like but what lovely thing Can we be promised if we're not just people who can earn our way into a green life which kind of goes into the Your first book. Psperity Gspel, which is something that I found very offensive as well when I got divorced. Yeah. because I had bten into b into a mythology that I didn't know I had, which was I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't swear I didn't have had sex before I was married, but it was to the person I was going to marry Loophole And had we stopped a couple months before the marriage, before the wedding. So we're good And then I thought nothing bad would happen to me. That that was the So would you talk a little bit about that?. I mean are we align that we're like, that's preposterous. When people Father Boyle said this in one of his books, Father Greg Boyle, he talked about those chain emails that go out that are like, these are the people whose alarms didn't go off on nine eleven and they were late to work and so God spared them because they're good people. and you're like, what about the three thousand people who died This is weird how quickly we'll plug our ears and laa la laa and be like, yeah, but this guy, whatever. Yeah. I will One of my very favorite things in the whole world to do is to Listen to really wise people. findind the truest thing you can say even if you can't say that everything happens for a reason. So like knowing of course that there is a bizarre me between needing to this' like that this lovely Wendell Berry quote, like Um Life was requiring life from her. Like the sense that you kind of sometimes have to rise up in your own life and find this little space a possibility where otherwise nothing would have happened. I'm like So how do you say that is what we do as people is so precious and rare and like takes enormous courage and and have the right language for these truths that we kind of pluck from How And so Father Greg Boyle is wonderful priest here in LA who runs This amazing. ministry with like former gang members He always has always crazy stories of like, and then I was visiting this guy and then there was a drive by shooting. and I'm like, so what do you what do you say? And he says, My God protects me from nothing, sustains me and everything Those are good. Like those trs were our like J Finy. Just so we give credit. Who's Jim Finly? Like that's who said that No Yeah, tell me. I want to know. I I want to know. I want to know. He's quoting Jim Finley, the wonderful Jim Finley, who's also out here. Wh you should know. I'd like to know that. Yeah, yeah yeah. As a researcher Get your quotes right, but I couldn't wait to say that quote to you when you were talking about that because that's my favorite one. Are we aligned on? I put them all around. I have this like center at Duke and I put them everywhere. Like a raabbi Steve Leer, who's also in the area writes if you're going to go through hell, just don't come out empty handed. Oh w. Th these little like My friend, Catherine Wolf, who had a series of debilitating strokes and she has this gorgeous ministry of peoplee with with with significant disabilities is She always talks about like treasures in the dark and like you want it from people who've suffered because you believe them when they say that u that this wasn't This wasn't worth it And This wasn't worth it. Like I mean, people are always surprised when I'm like this this this suffering, this cancer, this anything, this divorce because because the cultural storytelling look O and this is always the end of the celebrity interview And it made me who I am today. We just had Eugene Merman on the podcast. you know who that is? He's a comedian. He's wonderful. He was in a car accident and I asked him sort of naively. I was like, did that you see the preciousness of life. And he and I knew his first wife had passed, and he was like, no, my wife died. I already knew life was fleeting. And I was like, it was such a funny moment Obviously a teac teaching moment for me. but I was like Right, I was doing that thing where I'm trying to make your car accident. imbue reality with more preciousness and he's like, I already had the big thing I'm like right. But he was so generous about it, there wasn't anything snarky about it I keep saying we're talking about the same thing but I want to make sure it right we're talking about the same thing And hell and empty handed, that's a good one too Yeah. I really I mean, I just started saying I think just trying to encapsulate that feeling of like being so desperately in love with the world and being so heartbroken I just felt like once I saw it in my own life, I could see it everywhere. and that kind of opened up a new part of my I mean, because it took away any feeling that frankly, I deserved my life. I wonder, I hope I'm not opening too big of a can of worms, but don't you feel like some Christian theology has done that with Christ dying, like we really turn that into but it was to wash away our sins when do you have any sort of Katie feelings about like Does it have to be so commoditized? am I using that word right? into like a fix What could it like to me, Christ's death was the big me too. like I am Richard Rar, I suffer in you with you and as you. like I'm involved in your suffering. I'm not watching somewhere else. And also what's essential to me, what's essential to Christ wasn't touched by any of that. that there's a part, my stteracart, there's a part of you somewhere that hasn't been touched by anything. So that was kind of the message of it to me. But it has been sort of And I have a feeling that your Christianity is different or has more depth, maybe Th just like he died But it wasn't God not saving him It was actually God saving us. Is that? Well, yeah, I mean, I do think like atonement theories, right, which is what these are is like explanations for why whether there needs to be a pain like pain or a sacrifice from God. himself in order to changeed the course of history I mean, there's lots of honestly, there's a lot of really good slightly different atonement theories that for me get the job done, like And because I teach in a divinity school, I would say of the twelve or fifteen different denominations we have represented. they have like similar and but slightly competing language about like why God would send God's sef to die. like I do think that the part that I totally agree with you about is that like there's there can be like a really simplistic way where people are like God needs to solve a problem in a clean and rather horrific way. And in the prosperity Gspel version, it goes, and Jesus did all the bad stuff so that I can get all the good stuff is a very simple way of saying it. But knowing Having a richer story about how God's own humanity is teaching us something about how We need to be in a world that is saved and also like We're all trying to figure out in our own path Which parts need to die and which parts need need to like kind of go through the fire and become lovelier versions of what they were. That's our language for that sanctification. Like That's what the story of Jesus does. It goes justification, what needs to die, sanctification, like what needs to live. I think I think even if we do have like maybe slightly different atonement theories. I think in all of it what we're asking is like Do we need to be saved? I think, yes. From God? I think we need to be saved from the durable evil of the world Which is the great which is the great nonsense. like I mean, the illusion I don't think evil is an illusion, but I think we're I think like the fact that the world is a pretty terrifying place that is seems to either have two arrows It's one toward its own imminent destruction and one in which we like look at each other and realize actually each one of us is a complete miracle and why did I not recycle earlier in my life? Yeah. So think I think whether we I think we're not sure right now how to how much the world need I think we're a little more convinced than we were ten years ago that the world needs to be saved I'm very concerned that like Most of our impulses are like niilistic is they're self serving and they're like death dealing really. Like I'm sorry, teenagers who don't want to get their driver's licenses because they're too busy online gaming, you know what I mean? Like they can't we're living in a hyper reality in which people can't enjoy the very parts of what it means to be human. like that stuff really worries me H. So when you're saying saved, you're not talking about souls there.'re about we're talking about the ark of the world. Yeah, Well I think in every version of the Christian story, I would say both Who are we saving souls from, though? What do you mean We're That was one of my questions is like we're saving it from God Like God's going to torture you or send you to Halloween Probably not me personally, but I'm just o hilarious. I like that is still probably, you're one hundred percent Christian. I said one hundred percent. I was doing that to shame you, which makes me less a hundred percent. You were shing like probably to implicate me. I was doing to kind of like friends make you feel worse. and so that probably puts me at about like ninety percent. I'm just thinking talking about atonement theory, I never get to talk to about atonement theory Oh good is a listener? I don't know. I think about this all the time Whoever they are, they're special gummy bears. that are like, I'm here for the dick jokes, the atonement theory I always pay very close attention when you talk about God No really? I was. Yeah. Well, I think there are a lot of people, it turns out that are You know Yeah, in both in the mix. But you know, there's the Richard Rord quote where he says Jesus didn't die to change God's mind about us, but to change our mind about God Yeah, to be honest like I think a tone with theory is pretty complicated. and like I think because even the nature of evil is really I mean, some people think that evil is like a presence or a personality. Others think that it's like it's just a negation and it's complete absurdity that it has a non reality to it. So I just even think the terms like I'm a historian, not a theologian feel like I respect a good atonement theory. feel like I've got three that seem viable to me that probably pretty close. Okay. So I've always I was like, yeah that's That're pretty much right. got a back up about But I think our language, we just, I mean You'd have to also have a pretty strong story about where you think the world is headed, I think, if you want to talk about what it's being saved from or for U We're pretty much out of time. I wanted to ask you about I've been taking a lot of comfort And that's my bias right there. I have a confirmation bias for sure. I'm looking for comfort about AI. I did a deep dive into the like Doom and gloom and was I made a joke, my algorithm was on YouTube was all the T eight hundred Terminator robot. Every video was just flames and like these jobs won't exist and like the rich are building bunkers it just got contaminated And then the light at the end of the tunnel I found was people that know history that started talking about how Anytime a new technology, I just watched one last night, a new technology emerges, it follows a certain pattern. Is that anything you have talk about're like can you Can you make me feel better about? I did once twenty I do think people are scared. so there'd be a service there. There are. notot just me. When it was the year of our Lord nineteen ninety nine. And I was an anxious college student and I took a class about the millennium, about Y two K. Can you stop I have a bit about AI where I go, please be a Y two K. And I'm like, if you're laughing, you're forty and I go get a colonoscopy would youd Right? Wh two K Please keep going. I just can't believe I have a R one school professor Conirming My premise, please be a Y two K. Keep going. Please be. Well just so I was very stressed out about it. and was so I took a history class of like all the times in which we thought the world was going to end.. and what the precipitating event plague slash technology, mostly plague. Yeah. Yeah. It was and I think I think mostly it convinced me that we need a story. We don't just need an account of technology. We need a story about the future We need to know why like always needs to be reborn. Like if even if some things go away, like m just thinking like Italy and the Renaissance after the plague, L what commitment to like beauty and community and togetherness do we need to have? Be we need like a louder voice in the AI disrupt bunker building, inevitable. Yes. A plag again and AI are similar disruptions? I think that's okay. Yeah. And so and both require kind of deep hopefulness, not about AI, but about humanity. And we're back to courage. I think we're back to courage. Yeah But we've had courage in the past. Yeah. really I really enjoyed that. Yeah. Like when the printing press came out,, shifted thing Don't let me explain this to you.able type. whoo say more Agin time. Guggenheim press. No, no, no, it was a press in a spiral so you see all the paintings in one easy jaunt. Genberg, Genberg. Steve Gutenberg Press from Police Academy I think you were just saying the name of the museum. I was? Yeah. That was the spiral roof. N'm going have this in a spiral. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't get that. It was good. Are you embarrassed now? So full of shame That's what this podcast was about. It's a shame in this podcast. Reasonable people. Feeling shame. creating concurrent waves of shame.. It's been a lot. It's been a lot. It's been a lot, Kate, thanks for coming out. The book is joyful Anhoo Joyful anyho twenty five things to smile about Dh, jumpsuits Vape. It's kinda dark.h? Vape, we could talk about vape. Yeah, How we just go into our brain and we push down dopamine. You know what I mean? Like we're just this is us now With everything. Pornography. You're really upset Sugar. I know. I hate. I don't like it. I don't like it make it stop. This I don't. I don't want it. Nicotine, caffeine, success, rise and grime And then we're dead. Yeah. That's not a good story. No, that's a bad story Bad story. It's true. We need a better story. We need joy, connection, humanity, risk, courage. That's right. We need these virtues and they are