Understanding Death and Eternal Being

Lemonour You made it weird. with me Holes. What's happening, weird is this if you know me at all, if you know this show is a huge day for me. This is the Rupert Spyra podcast. He's the guest on this podcast. He's sort of the unspoken guest on so many episodes of this podcast because I am constantly quoting Rupert If you've heard me say, Rupert I mean Rupert Spyra. od's gu He is a non dual teacher, He is my friend. I absolutely love him. The book that I always encourage people to try read first is called Being Aware of Being Aware, but he has many the nature of consciousness. He has a book called You A the happappiness You Seek. and he has a daily free meditation app called Luminous that I also highly recommend. I've been doing the luminous meditations. They're only like ten, fifteen minutes I'mso a member on a member. I subscribe, I don't know how to say this. Rupertsspyer. com I get I download full retreats, full meditations, full dialogues. That's what I listen to in the car. That's what I do when I meditate. I listen to the meditations on rupertsspyer. comot This man has changed my life Beyond words. he's unbelievable and I'm so glad that he's finally on the show not too much for me to say up top other than that. If you go to pethomes. com, you'll see my tour dates. Silly silly fun boy, My newest special is on YouTube as well as I'm Not for everyone. My previously on Netflix special is also now on YouTube. So there are two full hours of standup comedy available from me on YouTube I said YouTube too many times. I'm also on the road. I'm about to be Let me see, Wh's the tour my own link tour. I know I'm going to be in Denver. I know I'm going to be in Aspen, Colorado. I'm going to be in San Diego. I'm going to be in at Los Angeles for my monthly show at the Largo. The next one is on june seventeenth. I'm going to be in North Carolina, South Carolina, Sacramento. I'm going to be in Portland, Maine, Vera New York, I'm going to be in Van ver This is often when I find out I didn't know I was going to be in Verona, New York V Rona I'm going be at the Romeo and Juliette Theater in Verona. I don't know where it is. Oh no, it's at the casino. Anywways, Sen Lis Aispo, Madison, Wisconsin, Seattle, Portland, those are all on petehomes dot comot And as I always mentioned, my book, Spells to Cast on Your parents, which I'm very, very proud of, is available for pre order. It'll ship in September, but you can order it now and that helps us out. It's just a book that helps you and your child or your loved one, grandchild, doesn't matter can cast spells on you that makes you do silly ridiculous things within reason that you'll both enjoy. Spells to cast on your parents. All right everybody again. I'm just over the moon that Rupert is here. We did a talk together on YouTube that was sort of diving into the deep end. I think we did a good job with this chat covering the basics and being a good intro to Rupert's approach to nonuality. And I hope you like it because it's just given me so much peace and happiness. So I'm glad you're here. Enjoy G into it. Study and play. Come together on a Windows eleven PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal, everything you need to study and play with select Windows eleven PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft three hundred sixty five premium and a year of Xbox GamePass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows dot com slash student offer Whw suppupplies last ends june thirtieth turnerms at aka. mS slash collllege PC Summers serve up the cookout cllassics, Heinz Ketchup and Kraft singles. Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly melty cheese and thick rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft Hello Rupert Hi. How's it going Good to see you, fine, thank you. How are you? It's good to see you too. I'm sorry that link wasn't working. Now it's fine, no problem I go. Yeah All these meetings start with some technical Diculty. That's just normal Yeah ye ye Good, there you are. Nlyin. Good, how are you? I'm doing great. What is it afternoon there It's four PM. Okay. Wow, all right. well Early in the morning for you. It's eight. You're gonna hear you might hear my wife and daughter having breakfast in the other room, but it's very sweet. I secretly I secretly hope that she comes in and interrupts us because it'll brighten bothook. O course I love to meet both of them. Oh, it's so sweet. Well, Lelah has a hard time when I'm on a Zoom and she has a rascal quality, so she likes to come in and interrupt. Okay, I wonder where she gets that from. That's exactly right That's exactly right Well, I'm so happy to see you. Thank you for taking the time to do this Not' pleasure. It's lovely lovely to see you It's lovely to see you too. I've been looking forward to this and I don't ike when we met in real life, I'd like it to just be a natural conversation and there's just good. Perfect. Likewise, I haven't some I'm just happy to you know, obviously, I haven't done any There's nothing to prep, I just is just I'm just happy to follow the conversation wherever it goes, Peter. as always Me too, me too. I'm glad. That's actually one of the first things we bonded over was it's weird to call you a performer But I have a very broad interpretation of show business, meaning anything that you're asking people to look at. a teacher in a classroom is in show business. So I kind of if you'll go with that, I feel like just I don't exactly see myself as being in Siz but by that definition, I guess I qualify. Well, the only reason I'm inviting you into my broad definition is because I was very intrigued what you do to prepare. And that was one of the disparities I noticed between this is I'm I'm rather almost OCD about like what I need to do, especially if I'm going to talk about nonuality, like the mood I want to be in. I want to do a little breathwork, I want to make sure I've had my coffee or all these things. And do you remember having this conversation? It was two years ago? you werere like, I do Yeah We go on. I have to confess, I I do no preparation at all I sort of love that But then you know, Pete, in a way my job's easier than yours because If I I can't think of what to say or if nothing comes to mind. I just go silent, sit in silence for five minutes until the next thing comes into my mind. And that's considered normal in the kind of field because I'm in your bo set of contempative meditative subject matter, but for you, I don't think that would go very well if you just went silent on stage for ten minutes It's a biz. It's a bizarre agreement that we go into that I'm like,'m we don't talk about it. It's like, you don't want to talk about it. You don't want to look it right in the eye, but you go like, I'm here to make you laugh. You know what I mean? And they know that. So people know when you're succeeding or failing. Whereas. although I have noticed, you know we share desire Well, you tell me if we share a desire. It's like I see a longing that you have, a compassionate longing for people to understand And again, I'm just looking for common ground here. I don't want to manufacture it, but you and I are both speaking to people and we want to meet, does that make sense I think you're absolutely right, Pe we both have something in our hearts that we're passionate about and that we want to communicate to other people And for you, that the sign that you've communicated or that you've been understood is laughter you're not if your audience justers smiles gently at you. You need more than that. You need because laughter in your worlds, laughter is the is the sign of sign that you've You've touched someone's heart, you've opened them up, you've melted some feeling of contraction or sorrow or selebarration. For me, the feedback is different. It's u in a way it's subtler. It's a very I can see it on people's face, but I'm looking for that same moment of recognition when somebody goes Oh, yes Mm Usually it comes with a, you know a frown is u relaxes into a smile. It's not quite as obvious as the laughter that you get. but certainly I'm I'm looking for that. I want to meet people. I want us to meet in understanding. and if I Don't get that. then I feel that it's my responsibility in a way, it's my if I'm putting myself in the position that I am speaking about these matters, if somebody doesn't understand It's because I failed, not because they failed. So I feel I'm not doing my job well. I haven't found a pathway. I haven't found a way of meeting them that I've tried two or three ways. they. They haven't understood that experiment, that line of reasoning, So then it's not on account of their misunderstanding or their lack of understanding. it's because I haven't found a way to meet them specifically. So that's what I'm always trying to to meet in understanding And in that sense, I think we are I think what we do is very Ver similar in some ways. Well, I like that. I know what you mean. I think people might think that that's absurd because I might be talking about something wicked or or taboo or whatever it is, but the result is this Merging, Ebody feels together. everybody feels like one undulating thing that we call a show and we're all not there and veryur there at the same time. Yes. And when somebody leaves your show You want them to leave. relieved of a burden So it's not just It's not just the joke in the moment and then it's gone. You want your work to have a a long lasting effect on people. And in that sense, it's not just entertainment. It's entertainment on the surface, but I think I've seen you in action. I think it's something much deeper than you do that you do. And you want people to walk away from a show like relieved of the burden of separation, the heavyweight of separation that most of us carry around with us. Really It doesn't matter how you do that. You can do it through humor, you can do it through poetry, you can do it through the way I do it there. There are different ways you can you can do that. You give people a taste of of what they are deeper than the f that they normally consider themselves being It might be a strange question, but What I do feels really good And I've never heard anyone ask you if it feels good. When you see that click, You've done it with me. I've been to three retreats and the feeling of standing up and having a direct question addressed and there is like a a softening or a relenting of a burden. Pe's shoulders go down, they smile, they laugh. How does that I mean, is it Gh to like say, does that feel good for you No, it does feel good. or let me ask me respond to the opposite question. does it feel bad if I If I'm not able to meet someone in understand, yes. If I've Fedag have, as you know, my dialogues they last a couple of hours Let's say over the period of two hours, I've had ten, twelve fifteen brief conversations with people. After the meeting, I'll go away that The one conversation that I will remember will be the one, the person that I didn't manage to meet or find the other ones they are transparent, they vanish. I forget the content But later on that evening, I'll think It'll trouble me. do I didn't find a way to meet them. so So so yes, it does, that there is the same joy person you are speaking to feels when they comeome to understanding I feel the same joy when we meet in understanding. I feel that same Moment of joy. abbsolutely. Yeah. I think the group does too It's so I think the group I think the group does. exactly We love it. I think it's I'm one of these people that I sometimes forget what I like, but when I'm on a retreat, one of your retreats, I'm like, this is exactly what I want. And why it really is kind of Tatiana, my friend who you know, we go like, this is our Netflix. We love when somebody's kind of in the weeds. We're kind of on the edge of our seat going like, is it going to happen? And when it happens It's happening for us.ike it's actually really fun to put yourself in their shoes and go like, I know what they're talking about. not going like, I know Rupert's going to say, but going like, no, I know that feeling. That shows up when I don't have enough rest or whatever it might be. Yes Please Absolutely. it's exact the same for me because when you listen to someone struggling with something or asking a question or you In that moment, you You become them, you are them. you feel what they feel As if it were your own emotion. put yourself in the place of the others and you go through and this happens for me as well You go through the ordeal or the struggle or the investigation that they're going through. and when they come to understanding, you feel that as your own. participate in it and I feel that very much And I'd be interested to know what you've feel as a comedian, but I don't feel that I'm on stage and people or something or disseminating spiritual knowledge. I'm participating in the exploration with the person as I do it. We're going I'm not just telling them what to do.' We're going on a walk together through this The kid and it's dense and it's dark and it's difficult and there are obstructions and we're going on that I'm with them. I'm doing it with them. Yeah then you come out into the clearing, the open space and it's a joy for for all of us, I think we all do that. We all participate in the exploration. And you've probably heard me say it, Pete, and I mean this really Sincerely, the community crereate the teaching Mm the The so called teacher and it's not like being a history professor where you have a syllabus and you come in and you disseminate it to your students. It's the The teaching is created in the moment out of the interaction Mm myself and the conversations. and that's what keeps a teaching something alive and free of dogma and free of particular formulations so that it can it can use different language, it can use dualistic language if necessary. can It keeps it free and fresh and free of dogman Yeah, I was going to say so many things came up for me. For doing comedy, you have to remember why you thought it was funny. You have to get in touch not with the concept, but you have to get in in that experience and communicate that feeling. Do that make sense? You can't just like say the words, You have to go like No, they haven't heard it invite them into the experience you had and recreate it. You can't just dictate it, you have to communicate it, right It's something somethinghing I've always noticed about you It is that is that when you're telling a story you're telling a joke and at the end of the joke You you Burst out laughing You find it so funny And I love that, people because it It shows that you're actually But's what I was saying afterwards, you're participating. experiencing it as if for the first time and you genuinely find it funny.. So's not you're not just 're forming from a distance. participating and going through the experience. that to me is a sign of real authenticity. I love that the way you find your own jokes. It's ical. It's an effort. like I'm trying to get in that place where I find them funny. And if I can't, that's a failure for me. There's this bono, you know, bono Oh sorry Yeah, no no go I was just going to say Bono from YouTu says, if I'm not feeling it, I literally can't hit the note. Like he can't sing the note if he's not feeling it E great, thank you. That's it. if you're not finding it genuinely humorous if you're not taking the journey, the story that you're winding up leading us towards the punra. If you're not taking that story and if you don't feel the same release of tension when you come to the end of the end of the joke or the story, then it's like you' You're standing apart and And telling us something. Yes And and where rather than actually comming communicating it Viscerally Yes to us. And such a difference completely agree And what a beautiful way to start my morning. I love this kind of stuff. It's like it is emerging. It's like it's an and it's very vulnerable. I think that's why Some of my comedian friends, Mike Berbigia, when we do a bad show or if the crowd is hostile or drunk or rowdy, you get off stage and you're like, how was it? and you go, I did the album. That's a way of saying like, I just said the act. It was too risky. I couldn't extend a bridge because they were They were wrong. It was wrong. It wasn't safe. Yeah. So you just say there are times when you have to do that. but in the I did a show last night where you're just like This is such a in quote spiritual thing to say, but it's the moments in between the jokes. It's these looks, it's this hyper attunement to every sound they're making. and I think Don't let me lead you there, but I feel like you're doing the same thing. You're very attuned to the people you're talking to, their body language, their voice. How are they saying it? What are they really saying Because sometimes a crrad will say, don' we don't like that and I'm like, actually I know what you actually like. And I'm going to give you that evenven though you just told me you didn't want that Yes. I you know,'ve you've heard me do this when I When I listen to someone asking a question, I'm listening to the question, of course. But I'm really listening to the question behind the question. And is that's more to do with empathy, intuition And that's why two people can ask the same question or make the same observation and get to completely different responses from me because it's really you're responding to the The question behind Qestion. Yes. It work keeps If that's the question you really want to answer Yes, that's exactly right Sometimes The person is not even aware of it themselves. They're trying to articulate it. They know there's a question there. They try to put words to it And they they just aren't quite articulate. and that in a way is the It's the art of what I do, not just the skill of what I do, but the art of what I do. is to really to be sensitive to intu it. What does this person they What do they really want to know? Where are they really struggling? What are they really trying to ask? which may not be the question they actually ask. Yes. That's right And I share your, I don't wantan to say obsession because that sounds negative, but I share your interest I sometimes I have a batchel. I'm thinking one now And I'll go like, I know there was a combination of that safe. I know there was, and I just couldn't find that and I'm sweating and I get off the stage and I'm like A and what is it who said all I see are my mistakes That you quote that often It was a Zenmaster at the end of his life when one of his One of his students asked him, how are things for you now or something like that? Yes. What's it like for you looking back on your life now or such something And he said, all I see are my mistakes. Yes. Which makes me Me too, me too It's very human, though, right? I mean, you don't expect a Z master to say It's very human. It's because the things the things that weren't mistakake, the things that went well There's no need for the mind to register them. They've evaporated. they've become transparent. It's just those It was times where you made a mistake, they're the ones that stick.' so I think it's so true, but also so human, so humble. Yeah This is a slight gear shift. I'm realizing like I love talking with you and I discovered you through a podcast. I was listening to I was looking for someone else. It doesn't matter. I listened to you by accident And I'm realizing that this is a comedy podcast. We do a lot of guest like you as well. but I know there are people listening that are going to be dropping into something that I find really, really exciting. So I'm aware that there's this like opportunity that I could that same reaction that I had in this episode with you. So shifting a little bit Sure Not sure. If you may, I really don't want to I love where we are. so I don't want to take you I' happy to go with you wherever you want to go. you lead. don't be apologetic. happy. Like as your friend, I'm like I do feel bad going like, okay, identity, let's talk about identity, but like I think there is something the benefit of non duality, this isn't even something I was planning on saying is like when you're talking about it It's here Now, it's the apparatus that we're saturated in right now, this being, this aware, spacious presence. So it's here and alive right now So whenever I like to talk about it, I try to start there and go like Let's not get lost in concepts. I'm certainly not coaching you. I'm just saying to the people listening, What we're talking about, what I'd like to talk about with you is your experience right now When we talk about emptiness or awareness, sometimes people get like They feel like they're at a museum and they don't understand the art. You know what I'm saying I totally agree with you, Pete. I think that The word enlightenment is one of the most misleading terms in the spiritual literature and has led to more misunderstanding Probably than any other word, because By definition refers to some marvelous experience that's going to happen in the future as a result of what you either do or cease doing now. And this is gives that the exact opposite impression from what you have just said, which I wholeheartedly agree with, namely that what all the great religious and spiritual traditions speak about is who we are now. we are now, who we are now. underneath all the behind the narratives, the memories, the the thoughts, the feelings who who we are now not how we might become if we start doing this or stop doing that or change or discipline ourselves or practice meditation. It's who we are now underneath all the layers of experience that we've accumulated. Yes. So yes absolutely. And that's really exciting,? I mean,' like we' we are pointing somebody to something that's present right now that you can to use your word. you can taste and experience right now. and it's really it's exciting. I'm an excitable person.c literally what is referred to in the great traditions as enlightenment or awakening is literally available Everybody without exception now Nobody has privileged access to it Yes. But the mind, if I'm correct, like the mind we're quiet for a moment. and it is this non conceptual meaning it's not a concept. it's not an object what we experience when we're still or when we're quiet. So the mind looks back on that experience and goes, well, that was nothing Is that is that is that something? Yes, Yes. if you if we trace our way back through the layers of experience, you start with our outer experience of the world, our perception of the world. We obviously When we look at the world, when we look at the landscape or the street, we obviously think I'm not the street I'm not the landscape because I'm that which perceives it we then tend to to think, well, I'm not the street or I'm not the world, but I am the body and the mind But if you look at say body. T Take your experience of the body now, it's collection of sensations and perceptions. we experience the body in much the same way that we experience the world. We're We ought that which experiences it We are not that which is experienced. So If you go even closer, you go inside, you you encounter thoughts and feelings Obviously they're more subtle than the world, but just as we understand, I'm not the world, I'm that which perceives the world So likewise, our thoughts and feelings, I'm obviously not essentially my thoughts and feelings. I'm that which knows them or that which is aware of them. So as we Travel back so to speak through the layers of our experience. come to this we come to A essential being which is which is not a thing, not an object in the way It's not a physical object. it's not a thought. it's not It's not an emotion, it's not a memory. So in that sense, it's not a thing. It's not something and and as such one could say, it's nothing. but it's I think we have to be really careful saying that it's nothing because nothing in common pets just means a blank empty void. But our being is not a blank empty voice Luminous. it's it's luminous. It's aware it's the fullness of being. It is actually what we refer to as happiness or peace. It is the experience. whenever we experience happiness or peace, we are actually tasting our beings So yes, it's nothing in the sense that it's not a thing, but really it's the fullness of being or being aware And the taste of that in our experience is is happiness or peace And when we talk about thoughts and perceptions, these are things that come and go. That was something that clicked for me. It's like What you essentially are is always with you. It's always been here. and thoughts, emotions, the sight, like When it comes to the body, it's easier for me with my eyes closed. You see that your body is just like you know, like a little firework of a feeling here and there and these sensations that come and go. And what you've pointed out to me is out of what did they emerge and into what did they recceed? Like what do they rise out of and what are they set into? What is as I've heard you use the analogy of, what's the string in the necklace Pearls are the thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions. but the constant is is the string and that is Knowing Knowingness. Yes. awareness of being being or being aware or awareness or pure knowing. yes, it's the It's the it's the They can continuous thread that runs unbroken throughout our life. you think about it, we've all We all call ourselves I. We and we've always we all feel that we've been the same I or the same self. I feel now that I'm the same self that I was at breakfast this morning G Yesterday, last week, last year, ten years ago, when I was a ten year old boy, when I was a two year old boy I had this sense of being myself Everyone has the sense of being yourself. throughout life, and it's continuous. We all feel that we're the same self. So there's something persists when we say I dreamt last night or I slept well last night again, there is this thread of ness or selfness that we all feel remains unbroken throughout life. Well Wh does that come from? Is there what is there in our experience The cheese unbroken or continuous. No thought is continuous no emotion, no feeling. however intimate and intense and The feeling may be no feeling. lasts forever. No sensation of the body, no perception of the world. In fact, no experience It lasts forever. Most experiences are brief. thats those are the beads on the necklace But there is but we don't feel that our experience is a series of intermittent thoughts and perceptions. We feel that our experience is one long smooth flow where does that one what is it that that gives the continuity to experience. it is Awareness, it is the fact of awareness is the the constant thread or the You've heard me refer to it as the screen behind the ever present screen behind the continually changing movie How many frames are there per second in a movie? The thirty forty five thirty I don't know. But why don't we experience a movie as a series of intermittent images? It's not a movie is one long continuous ower, what is it that's continuous in the movie? It's the screen. So the continuity of the movie borrowed from the screen It's the same that the continuity of our se, the selfness of our se. is derived from awareness from the fact of being aware, Yes That was the one that I was reading one of your books, I remember where I was and I was like It's like a knowing screen. It's like on what is your experience appearing or in what is your experience appearing? was like I've been waiting my whole life for the language that made sense. I was like, I've been waiting for someone to say, What is this? And we go, Ohh, there's a knowingness. in which or on which everything appears and you are that Exactly. and everybody understands that their thoughts and emotions appear in awareness in this space like presence of awareness. that's obvious to everyone. But what's not so obvious is that the sensations that constitute our experience of the body perceptions of the world, the sound of my voice, this the sight of your face It all happens in awareness, right? And we have a model in our world culture is predicated on the model that awareness lives in the head just behind the eyes And everything else is outside of that. But actually this contradicts our experience. The entirety of our experience, both of the so called outside worlds, and the so called in a world of thoughts and feelings and The intermediary Wellel of our body, it all takes place in a wayness that that is our experience It's funny, that one took a while for me because when I would look for a center, sometimes teachers say there is no center The space like presence of awareness is centerless or it's just vast And then you go like, but when I close my eyes and I look, is there origin point, I feel the sensation of my face. I've heard you talk about it like a mask floating in space. You feel your nose or your lips and you can go, well, that's That's the starting point But you have to it took real looking to go like, no, isn't that feeleing of face just another appearance in the vast emptiness. Yes We are all so accustomed to put to this model that we've this paradigm that we've been brought up with that the materialist paradigm that there is a physical world that gives rise our body is born into the physical world and then that awareness or consciousness is then generated by the brain inside the body. This is the kind of model that we've been rought up with and that model, although it contradicts our experience, as we said before, if you just look closely at the experience, all thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions, they all arise in awareness. awwareness is not located in body. However, even when even when this idea is when you begin to see the truth of this idea, the old belief that awareness is located behind the eyes in the head and it is generated by the brain. It's so strong. It's so deeply wired into us that It's it takes quite a lot of very often, it takes quite a lot of persistence to really be willing to explore one's experience and to trust the evidence of one's experience and to put on one's side the beliefs that we've inherited from our culture. but those beliefs that there ' pernicious that they They take a while to subside. Yeah, they're old old habits, right? I mean, it's so deeplyrained. deeeply ingrained old habits, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is something that I'm I'm still sort of massaging in my own experienceces like the idea that they're the separate eye or the separate self is a fiction because there is no separate self standing apart from this awareness. Everything I know it seems so simple. Everything appears in this awareness. And we are guilty of thinking, but I somehow am outside of it or I am the generator of it. when really everything that we experience appears and sets inside of it Yes, it's a very reasonable mistake, a very reasonable understanding mistake that we all make u We close our eyes. With our eyes open, we see the world. We close our eyes, the world disappears. We open our eyes again. the world appears, so it's reasonable to conclude that whatever it is that is seeing the world, is located just behind the eyes Think of what happens in a dream Imagine you dream you're on a Caribbean beach, you're on your deckchair You're looking at the world You close your eyes Caribbean beach disappears, you open your eyes again, it reappears So the character that you seem to be in your dream reasonably concludes that whatever it is that is se in the Caribbean beach is located just behind lit the eye and then you wake up And you realize no for knowing with which I was aware of the Caribbean beach. The awareness with which I was aware of the beach in my dream was not located anywhere in the time and space that seem to be real in the dream Wellel I would suggest that something similar is happening now. We look We look through the eyes, yes, But the awareness with which we are now aware of the world. I would suggest he's not located anywhere in the world, anywhere in the time and space that that seem to be real from the point of view of the waking state. although Even when we have this understanding, we continue to perceive the world from the localized perspective of our body and we continue to perceive through the eyes. So the illusion of being located behind me, that doesn't disappear Well that's just an illusion that's generated by sense perception But our understanding overrides that illusion That's the idea that There's one consciousness, there's one I am And it localizes. this is I'm always ripping you off, but here I'm ripping you off to you. It localizes itself inside of itself, create So we're not denying that we're having the experience I'm in here You're in there. Absolutely yes. But it's like waves on an ocean. It It appears to have its own reality. O I like what you talk about space in a room if you want to your choice. Exactly. the space in the room that The space in your room, you're in where are you now I'm in Ohi. ye. So the space in your room in Ohi, it has a particular shape, it has a particular size, it has a particular color and the space in my room here Devon, where what? I don't know How many thousand miles, five or six thousand miles apart from each other. They seem to be two totally different spaces differentifferent location, different age, different shape, different color, different size, everything Bond If you were to take a sample of the space inurum, And I were to take a sample of the space in my room The two samples would be identical They are the same space that there aren't millions of different spaces in the universe one for each building or one each contain. There's just one vast physical space seemingly enclosed. within the four walls of each building, but not really enclosed in them. I would suggest it's exactly the same. There's one One being, onees self, one awareness seemingly enclosed within numerous body minds But not really. If you were to take a sample Not of your thoughts, feelings, memories, narratives, and so on, but if you were to take a sample of yourself, the golden thread that we were talking about earlier, the experience to which you refer when you say I am If you were to take a sample of that experience I were to take a sample of the same experience They would be identical Yes. Yeah And they'd be identical in everyone, the saint, the criminal, and everyone Ebria is the same You guys know I love Element LMNT. I drink it every single day. That's how I jump startart my day. I love their pink lemonade flavor. It's my current obsession. It gets me drinking more water with the optimum ratio of magnesium, potassium, and sodium to flood every cell, fighting off fatigue, fighting off cramps, fighting off headaches Being hydrated feels fantastic and so many hydration so called supplements have like thirty grams of sugar in them. please don't fall for it. 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That's R. co slash weird to get started on Row and go to row. co slash safety for box warning and full safety information about GLP one medications When I talked about seeing a pig that was deeply asleep, we were at a petting zoo and I saw a pig deeply asleep, and I was like, that pig's having the exact same experience that I have when I'm in deep sleep. And so does my worst enemy or my favorite person, when we're absolutely stripped of all the content that naked shining awareness is how many I've heard you say this, how many infinite Boundless Things can there be? There's there's there's one and we're. apppparently splitting it. We're pretending to split it. We're playing that it's been split Yes, it's sense perception that divides that one being. into numerous beings Mhm. And as you say, everyone everyone is that Everyone is that now that that naked being. underneath all the layers of experience Everyone is that now. But everybody without exception has the feeling of I Everybody uses the word I more often than any other word day everyveryone has a feeling I am myself. this feeling of selfness. Yes perades everyone's experience. Not everybody knows their self as it essentially is. clearly, for the vast majority of people, their sense of their self mixed up with their thoughts, their feelings, their relationships, their activities, their history, their memory, and so on. So everyone has this sense of being their self, but in most cases it's mixed up with the content of experience It's like you saying that the space in my room is square and light and fifty years old. and it's like me saying the space in my room is octagonal and dark and two hundred years old. No, the space is not any of those things. The space is It has none of those what we're describing when we are the walls. The walls have a certain shape, size, and age, but the space itself is free of all those limitations. It's the same. if we all describe our thoughts, our feelings, sensations, perceptions, these are all different, of course But if we would just to go to that raw experience of being, just a simple feeling of being before it's qualified by experience, that is the same in everyone I had aort That's what all the great religious and spiritual traditions are. trying to get us to see one way or another is to recognize not intellectually of course, but experientially to really taste the nature of the being. that we essentially are underneath all the layers of experience and that peace and happiness are the nature. And And I would suggest that whenever in ordinary life, whenever we experience peace, or happiness. that is are being filtering through the layers of our experience. That's exactly what you do as a As a comedian you're telling a story or you you winding up people's expectations And the story goes on and on for two or three minutes. and then and in other words, you're you're perpetuating the The narrative line, the line of time on which our normal life place you're just winding that, you're winding up a sense of expectation that something's going to happen in the future. So you're just you're doing what we're all doing all the time, but you're making it even worse. You're making it more intense. You're building up this sense of anticipation and expectation. and then The punchline comes and what happens at the moment the punchline comes The expectation comes to an end You cease looking to the future for the the punchline brings the expectation, the anticipation to an end. And in that moment that the narrative that the self, that the apparently separate self requires to perpetuate itself comes to an end In that moment, someone gets brief taste of their true nature As a result of that, there is this relaxation in the body and laughter or tears are two of the very laughter in your case one of the ways this deep relaxation of the body, that the tension of separation, the cramp of separation comes to an end on tasting your true nature And laughter is the expression of that in the body. So yes, peace and be sort joy that they are that They are the taste of being. Yes I've heard you say like we all look forward to sleep. Sleep isn't a void. We look forward to it. We love it. I love sleep. now that I have a daughter, I cherish it, the sleep that I can get. And I have this joke years and years ago that later after I found you, I was like, Oh, I was saying more than I thought I was, which was this. I go Whenever I'm afraid of somebody I remember that everybody sleeps Like somebody scares me I think of them on their pillow just like, it's beautiful. And I go, that's not scary And what I'm saying is it's beautiful. Exact right? I mean, go with that, please That that's so int that's so intent. I love that It's a kind of spontaneous because what you doing? you're In sleep, we all know from the experience of sleep that our perceptions leave us The sensations of the body leave us, our activities and relationships leave us, our thoughts le. and we just We just remain as just pure being. There's no experience. And it's peaceful there. That's why we look forward to it If it was a blank empty void, if it was annihilation, we would all dread counts every night We look forbody we knowes from repeated experience it's peaceful there. and in that if we can call it a place, we are innocent. We are free of everything we have ever thought or done So and we know that from our own experience, that's why we look forward to sleep. We are liberated temporarily from the burdens of guilt and shame and sorrow and so on by exactly the same token, we know that everybody else When they are deeply asleep are free of everything they have ever thought or done. So when you think of someone, that's what's so beautiful about this spontaneous practice you do When you think of someone deeply asleep, you are thinking of them in their innocence. in their purity You're thinking about them as they truly are.. And in order to provoke that, have you have imagined them asleep. Yeah. That's beautiful. It's beautiful. But my son, Matthew, when he was I'm very young He would sometimes uncontrollably upset or frustrated about something and you you Well know what it's like when your daughter is just uncontrolled. You try everything and nothing works. V it didn't happen very often, but there were a few times When he was quite young, when he was uncontrollably upset and neither his mother nor I could do anything to confirm, he would sometimes just lie down He'd say, I just want to go to sleep H I was so when he did that. It's of course he didn't realize what he was saying, but what he was saying was I know from my past experience that whenever I am deeply asleep, I'm relieved of my sorrow and my It doesn't come with you. And it doesn't come with you. And he knew that. and he'd tried everything else and his mother and I had tried everything else. Nothing worked, but he knew, all I need to do is go to sleep. What he was really saying was all I need to do is just go back to my being Yes And for him, falling asleep was his access to that That's all meditation is. You've heard me say this. It's falling asleep. but remaining awake. In other words, just going back to the simple fact of being or being aware the layers of your experience. And we can do it right now. Sayor said what's wrong with right now if you're not thinking about it. That's a way of dropping or eff it's not really efffforting, but you just go like, wait, it's a good pointer. Like what is wrong with right now? if you don't think about it. It's like a really funny riddle. Like don't think about it Tell me what's wrong, but you can't think about it. and you go, like, that's a way of just briefly being asleep and going like, o Right, exxactly Yes. It's like falling asleep whilst remaining awake. In words, going back to who you essentially are your thoughts and feelings. You can anyway, you can do it At any time during the day, anybody can do it. Nobody has privileged access to Buddha the Ramana Mahashi Las who Jesus Christ, none of these people had privileged access to their being, they had access to their being and they went there and they stayed there maybe more more more easily than some people. But but the being to which they return, the being that they knew as their essential self is the same being that is available to you and I and to everyone twenty four seven And that's That's the good news. I wrote this in the margin of a book I was reading. I wrote Can I be more of this later. I really think that's the trap as you're like, o, if I could really understand what Rupert and Peter are talking about, I'll get it. There is this like Your brain is postponing it I'm just bringing us back to like It's here now. What we're talking about that W, w, w,, when you're asleep is what is what this is appearing in? Y, it's thept behind the image is taking place in the movie However beautiful it is, however awful it is, however distressing it is, whatever is going on in the movie The screen is it's not even behind the movie, but yeah You can say it it's behind the movie. and this and The screen is It allows the movie without resistance But it's not affected. byy anything, whether then the movie comes to an end The movie doesn't stain the screen, it's still the transparent screen that it was. before the movie began. and no matter how many movies play on the screen, the screen remains unchanged. our being is like that. It's the screen behind the drama of experience. Al present, always available never, never harmed or hurt or tarnished or traumatized by experience The mind and the body can be hurt and traumatized being our essential being or being aware, awareness itself, that that is like the screen h the image it's always in the same pristine, peaceful condition. and that is available Everybody without exception, twenty four seven It's funny, we do. I had a I grew up Christian, so I don't say this looking down on anybody, but I had a Christian on my podcast this week and I quoted the verse in John that we both like, which is before Abraham was I am this idea that it's a radical thing for Jesus to say before Abraham, so like the guy of their faith, before he even was, I am What a weird it seems like something Like a mystic today might say it seems very new age, but it's like a very radical thing to say what they responded, and I'm not putting this down, but they were like, yeah, he's talking about the nature of God. And what's interesting about this is I'm going through your work and through conversations like these, I'm like, that I am We are drawing a boundary. We go, well, that was Jesus. There's a wall between me and him. He was talking about God and my I am is limited? I mean, what do you feel about that What I fved. Let's go back to the analogy of space, Pe Take the space in your room in Ohio And just imagine that the space was conscious. So it's not just physical inert space. Imagine that the space is aware If we were to say to the space Tell us about yourself Tell us something about yourself. too begin with a space might look around at the four walls and say, well, I'm square, I'm light. covered in paintings and photographs and I'm fifty years old so And then we say, no, no, no You're telling us about the walls Tell us, look at yourself. Tell us about yourself. And the space would then, as it were turnurn its attention away from the walls, the content Look at it something. What's the very first thing the space would say about itself if it could speak It would say P because the words I am refer to It's it's being, It's presence Think now of the vast space of the universe, not the space in your room, the vast space of the universe. And do the same. immagine that it's a conscious space Do this same experiment. We asked the vast space of the universe Look at yourself. tellell us about yourself. What's the firstirst thing you can say about yourself the space would pause lookook at itself, so to speak It would say I am Take the two I AMs The I am The experience to which the space in your room referred. but enabled it to say I am and the experience to which the vast bace of the universe referred that enabled it to say, I'm what was the difference between those two experiences And they were the same Right. They were the same that's what that's what Jesus was trying to say before Abraham was, I am. the I am, the I that I am is present before Abraham, In other words, it's not in time It's not finite It's not a personal temporary being. It is infinite being. that I am is God's being In other wors the knowledge I am. is God's presence shining in us as our very own beings. justust as it is the vast space of the universe that is present in your room as the space of your room In other words, there is only God's being. there are no other beings apart from the one infinite being. and that is what the word God refers to. And the ground of being is another term from the Bible. It's like everything ground ground of being Yeah. Yes Yes And when we get it' so again, a lot of people, I think that listen to the show come from the same background as me. And when we get into ideas like We need to be atoned What you've really showed me is like When we get into the question of identity Wh are you? And you go like, well, Pete needs to be a tone Well, you go like, are you Pete? Is the answer? to do you need to be atoned? Would you agree with that Pz, say that again, sorry. I didn't understand your question. What I'm saying is When we look at the classic Christian narrative, like Jesus dies to wash away Rupert's sins and then you won't be tortured or you'll go to heaven or whatever. Yeah The question of identity Am I the same I am that is the only I am removed I see. Yes. I don't want to say removes the need, but it kind of goes When I was talking to that person on my podcast, I was like We need to be forgiven be saved and I go from who Who are we being saved from? And I go, from God And we're standing apart from God as something that needs Am I being cle Absolutely, yes. yes. I think that The ultimate atonement or salvation is salvation is the western term for the easastern term enlightenment, the ultimate Salvation is to recognize that We don't actually have our own individual being, in fact a set our se up as a being as opposed to God's being alongside God's being coe existing with God's being is Blasphem us. becausecause it's to suggest that there is God's being and there are also billions of other beings. Well, if there's God's being plus billions of other beings, then God's being is not very infinite. T really to set oneself up as a self. from infinite being is to deny God So whilst it's legitimate as a concession to the separate self to speak about the separate self devoting oneself surrendering oneself. the ultimate The ultimate devotion, the ultimate surrender, the ultimate salvation I would suggest is to recognize that the only being there is in us is God's being. And that's peace. Even you're just saying that, I'm like, that's that's peace. That's what I mean by going like it kind of uproots the whole narrative Yes. Yes. Much of the narrative is said as a concession, a completely legitimate concession to the separate self. that we seem to be And so but but in the in the in the higher expxressions of the nndal understanding So the teaching doesn't make that concession. undermines the existence of an individual being that needs to be atoned or forgiven or Potect thats what That's why Jesus' message was a message of love. not of that was the essential measure. what is love recognition of our shared being, the recognition that we are one being, the recognition of our oneness That's the fundamental message of the Christian tradition And that goes back to what we were saying about sleep. When you're deeply asleep and when I'm deeply asleep, exact same experience and that recognition is and it's like a It's not thinking about qualities of you, Rupert that I like and me saying I love you. It's me going like, no, we're actually the same. It's like when I look at my daughter I go, we're the same. you're me When you say I like you or indeed, I dislike you in relation to person, what we mean is I like the way you think or I don't like the way you think, I like the way you look or I don't like, I like the way you behave or I don't Whether we like someone or not is to do with personalities, our characters, the way we think, the way we act and so on But when we say I love someone and we usually conflate these two and We don't make a distinction, but they mean two completely different things. When we say, I love you, What we're really saying is I feel that I share my being with you. I feel that I am one with you it's a really lovely It's not really an emotion as such although it expresses itself as an emotion, it's the felt sense but at the deepest level, beneath all our thoughts and feelings and actions and so on We are the same being, just like the space in your room. in Ohio and a space in my room in the UK, they are not two similar spaces They are the same spit. That recognition that we are the same being is la. and most people only extend the circle of their love to their nearest and dearest, or at least to the people they like But that's got nothing to do with whether we like Saman or not we share our being with everyveryone Whether we liked some or not And so in a way I feel we have a those of us that are interested in these matters. We have a sort of sacred duty to love everybody. We don't to like everybody but to love everybody irrespective of their political views, their behavior and so on. because if we can't love everybody How on us Can we expect that the leaders of our nations and institutions to feel that they share their being with everyone and act accordingly W the with the space thing It's so interesting. so many teachers talk about knowing who you are is the answer. So when I have anxiety, like old Christian anxiety, I need to be rescued or fixed, or redeemed, or cleansed or whatever It is interesting to take it to the space. I am looking at the walls and there might be a framed picture of some bad thing I regret doing or saying or feeling or And I feel a saying like, knock down the walls. I believe it's in the Dao De ChQing they talk about the air in of vase when the vase breaks The question is, does it reunite with the air around it or is it revealed to have never been separate from that air around it? And you this is why I get so excited. That's The good news.'s it's like ye, the good news that the space in your room is already the vast space of the universe. Taking tweaking the images on your walls, rearranging the furniture, or even taking the walls down It's not going to have any effect on the space nor needed. the space does not need nor can it be improved. Yeah. So so in order to recognize who you deeply are and to feel its innate peace. and you don't have to to change the content of your experience, that doesn't mean that it's not valid. to take a painting off the wall or change you it's valid to look after one's body, to feed it well, to exercise it well. If you have some psychological dendencies that are deep seated habit left over from the felt sense of separation. it may be legitimate to pay attention to those habits if there is some some lingering trauma from your childhood it may be appropriate to pay attention to that narrative. And so I' not I don't mean to imply that One shouldn't take care of all of that. but one doesn't need all I mean to imply is that it's not necessary to change any of that It's not necessary to change anything about one's current circumstances in order to recognize one's true nature avail yourself of its innate peace. that's the really good news. is It's not something's going to happen to you in ten years time. Yes. And the here and nowness, if we take psychedelics and have some extraordinary experience, then I can know that I'm the space within which that extraordinary experience appeared. The mundane experience appears in the same phenomenon. Isn't this something called heart Yes. Yes, absolutely. the most wonderful experience you've ever had, the most awful experience you've ever had and everything in between. all takes place in the same space of awareness and that space of awareness is never It's self affected It's never enhanced or diminished by anything that takes place within it S as the space is home is never 's not affected whether you're dancing or fighting or whatever. the space allows it all, contains it all, remains undisturbed byin Hey, it's Julie Louie Dreyist from Wiser than Me, etcetera. Just popping in with a little reality check Food waste shouldn't exist. There is no reason that our leftovers should end up in a landfill, but that's the final destination for about a third of the food we grow Our ancestors would be confused. They use their food scraps as compost, or as animal feed, or in weird soups, all the stuff we did before garbage was invented Composting is hard work. Living with a bucket of rotten food on your counter is gross. 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I understand these things and I still love hearing them over and over. it's just a fun song to listen to I noticed and I've been one of these people that gets very interested in your And I've seen this happen to other teachers where they say like, you always keep it cool, you're always calm or whatever. And there's this interest that I hear, maybe every fifteenth question is about you. Do you get mad? Do you get whatever it might be what I'm realizing in this conversation is Rupert is an appearance on the screen. it's missing the point, right? This This isolation of awareness is a character in the dream. And if we go, does that character in the dream get mad when he burns his hand on the stove isn't Wouldn't you say that's missing the point with all with all love and understanding, that's the wrong question Yes, it's It's very easy to project and we've all done this, I've certainly done this. It's very easy to project perfection on to someone who speaks or writes about these matters. And and it's None of I can only speak for myself. I am Far from perfect That The the the the this this recognition of one's You can recognize your true nature You have genuine recognition of your true nature to begin with, It's usually a glimse and then you go back to the old thoughts and feelings and then you trace your way back your being again and you have another brief glimpse and To begin with there' quite a lot of backwards and forwards. but in time you begin to get more and more established instead of just visiting your being, so to speak from time to time, you begin to live then However, This does not eradicate overnight The old tendencies of thinking, feeling, acting and relating they carry on. We've been rehearsing them for twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years and they have some momentum behind them And it takes time I think it takes a lifetime ort for all these habits of thinking, feeling and relating to to gradually realign themselves with this new understanding. Now how long it takes varies from from person to person. that the u The analogy that I can't remember who it was borrowing this analogy from someone maybe Ranaahashi. I can't remember that recognition of one's nature is like turnurning the There's a boat on the ocean And it's like turning the engine off. what it is that's Plling the boat forward comes to an end The boat still has some momentum behind it. Now depending on whether it's an oil tanker, or a fishing boat the o tanker will take thirty miles to come to an end, and a fishing boat will take thirty meters to come. It varies depending on the weight of momentum So up Each of us is like that. We have a different momentum behind us, old habits of thinking, feeling ing relating and these Take time be aligned with this understanding. No one's perfect. Yeah. And that's missing the point. No one's perfect. Sorry to lead you this way, but like It's granting this separate self an identity, right it's missing the point. Yes. Yes. of course from And you don't of course you don't mean this. We shouldn't by saying that it's missing the point, we're not suggesting that It doesn't matter how one that Of course it does. It does matter, but it doesn't affect one'ess being So you can have a genuine recognition of your true nature stabilizing in that recognition It takes time and it takes different people different different amounts of time depending on their past conditioning I remember when I came home from the last retreat, I was with you. And I really wanted to go for a swim because it's very hard for me to go from that just back into full. family mode. So I was like, I'm going to swim. And I went out and I couldn't find my earplugs. My daughter and friends love to find my swimming stuff and just throw it away basically Rut, I got so mad. Like this story swelled up in me. I can't have any stuff Like I go like I just go like I don't even have that much stuff. This house There's only a few things. One of them is my earplugs. I just need earplugs. And then what's worse is I go You just came back from a spiritual retreat. Look how mad you are And then this is why I wanted to talk about this. Valerie, my wife is brilliant. and she was like, Pete, what are you talk? It's totally normal. You were just in this serene place. You're having a little frustration. It's okay. Nothing went anywhere, notothing changed, everythingverything's fine. She's very good at that But like confusing that in my old Christian way of I had it and I lost it. I'm turning it into worshiping my good mood, basically, feeling groovy all the time is very different from going, no matter what's in the movie, this guy's mad and look how you laughed at that Part of my job is like bringing these foibables and these flaws into the light and we delight in them. They're good stories. I liked telling you that story. But in the moment it can feel like such a failure But to speak to that, please. But it's not even I had it and I lost it, although I completely understand it. to begin with, we tend to think, oh, I had this marvelous experience. when I was on retreat last week and I've completely lost it. It's not. that's like saying U When you get so absorbed in a movie that you suddenly case seeing the screen. No, There's no question of having it and losing it. You are always your being Always, always, always. twenty fourth tim. sometometimes it's true Um Oh Connection with our being gets eclipsed by the intensity of our experience. Our experience is either so pleasant or so unpleasant. that we that we lose ourself in it in the case of you and the earplugs. So so Il you just got it provoked this feeling in you and you were completely lost in your feel, But your being was just there, just quietly behind the upset and Five minutes later, Valerie says something to you, you find your earplugs, that the feeling subsides and And there's your beam just in the background. It was always there. It was always there, yeah Yeah, yeah. And in my experience, what what I find is that the more established one is in one's being The fewer and fewer experiences still have the power to take you out to take you away from yourself. So some do, usually with your nearest and dearest. They're the ones that still have My own family threw away my earplugs. It's a very juicy story. But as if it had been the neighbor, you would have just smiled sweetly at them, more strraange Yeah. But eight time you know, the things that used to upset us and irritate us in front that they They lose that I would take us away from the peace of our being. And if a few experiences still retain that power, well, they't it doesn't happen often and it doesn't last for long You don't seem burdened by a need to perform. I'm really happy. I'm just That's a wonderful thing to see at the retreats and stuff. I'm very sensitive to performance and stuff. and I just don't see a person that's going. Well, I have to say how delicious the food is and I have to smile and wave at everybody. I'm like You take time for yourself, you know, whatever it might be, you're just you're just being natural Pet if I could do what I'd do and remain invisible, I would I'm not like you. I think you are a natural performer. It's a gift.'s It's a beautiful thing. I don't think I'm a natural I'm more introverted. I'm not a natural public figure. Well, you've seen me on retreats. I like to I get up on the platform, I do my thing And then and then as soon as I'm off, I just want to be invisible when we all sit down for lunch together r the table The best thing that can happen to me is when everybody ignores me. and just or just chats with me about my favorite movie or my summer holiday or something like that. I like just be Sorry. No, no, I see that. I think the reason I bring it up is such a part of Western spirituality is the mas mascotification of the leader, meaning pastor in my church is the pastor he preaches, but the real show, and I say this with a like I feel bad for him, is being so nice to my mother. Like that's the real show. L my mom and all of his church wives, you know what I mean? Like these surrogate wives like projecting onto him, be the perfect man Al be in a good mood, always smile, always have time, never, never, never. And I'm so happy when I meet people that are like That's this isn't a song and dance. We're going to do our thing and we'll have a normal lunch, but you'rere do you know what I mean? that church I say this with love, I am being a little critical, but that like That sort of plastered smile of the megapastor. L it's a relief to be like That's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about Richard War has this great line where he goes, the word nice isn't in the New Testament There's it never says the word nice And we've turned it into the worship of pleasantness, niceness. And there's some really great stuff about that. Niceness sets up the guest bedroom when someone doesn't have a place to stay. There's great stuff there But when it gets a little toxic is when it's like And we used to do this. Oh, the pastor, my youth pastor got mad today. Well, I guess, you know, I guess he doesn't. I thought Jesus lived in his heart sort of stuff, you know? It's nice to see that that's not what we're doing here Yes. I I think it's inevitable. I've done it. all Project affection onto anyone that speaks, particularly the speaks about these by these things. we don't expect our football stars to be perfect But we do expect anyone that speaks about spiritual matters or meditation or enlightenment, we do expect them to be Perfect. And it's a it's a it's a projection that that u comes from I think, a need that the individual has to somehow project affection onto someone or something, but it's I was very naive about this when I first started speaking and writing about these matchs. I had no idea that this injection would take place. and then after T years I began to Rather reluctantly I began to admit that it was happening. And and then I As soon as I admit to it and con see it, then I could become more skillful. I would notice it and I could just make sure that I was doing absolutely nothing to collude with it or even to to reject it, which is a sort of subtle inverted way of colluding with it because you're giving it more substance that it really that it end you you're substantiating it by by rejecting it. So I learned that handle it over the years and now I think I'm very lucky that people that come to my gatherings, a lot of a lot of you been coming for for many others very little rejection and I just feel totally normal. N everybody just lets me be and I'm almost well, no, I'm definitely speaking for myself. I think there's an unconscious desire for the peepness, the separate self to go if we can disprove it. If I see Rupert, losing his mind at the southwest gate at the airport Then the separate self will go, I knew I was separate. I knew I was real. There does seem to be an engine behind this Like there' a natural attraction towards things that validate are separate existence. And I think that might be one of them Yes. I'm sure you've heard me say this sometimes be that the spiritual teacher should be the last disappointment You know, we've all we've all looked for peace and happiness in the world through substances, activities, relationships and so on. And usually the reason why we go to a retreat or to a teaching or a teacher is precisely because All these conventional means for seeking fulfillment for finding fulfillment have failed us. So we go spiritual teaching or teacher orreat with the hope okay, everything else has failed me. There's got to be one thing. There's got to be one person that's reliable. It's going to give me the And so we project Huge amount An unreasonable amount. people project the most unreasonable aount onto a spiritual teacher because everything else has failed them. So the teacher becomes like the last hope And then so and I feel that inevitably sooner or later The teacher to become the final disappointment because nobody and nothing can can give us this deep sense of fulfillment, it has to be found inside yourself.. So even the so called spiritual teacher must sooner or laterater if we've projected that that that ideal unto them And we've we've And given them the role of providing peace and fulfillment for us. sooner or later, they're going to let us down. They're going to disappoint us. Yeah I have that with my book. Sometimes I go,, you know that warm, good feeling you have when you're just sitting reading a book and it's reminding you of your nature, all these pointers, and you're like, And then I'll be like in a sitation where I'm like, oh, I wish I could read one of my books right now. And you remember that all the books you are doing are pointing you towards yourself. and we're back to the good news. It's with you right now. likeike you're actually settlingactly for a surrogate I've heard I don't think it was M My Stkart, but it was somebody talking about They were talking about the top of the mountain and they're walking up the mountain with Jesus and the sadness of to get to the very top I say goodbye to Jesus. He goes, I can't come Nothing can come with you. No concept, no person, no other. It's just you alone. and there is a mourning and even a fear. There could be a fear of going like, I can't This has been my thing and then you go up byy the way, we see this in stories all the time, and you realize what you thought was death was life. What you thought was alone was everybody. Yes. Meister Eycart, as you know, Meter Eycart himself said he Payed to God Rid him of God because he knew that any last belief, any concept that he was was one attachment to me. He just wanted to be naked beinges without anything attached to it because he he he knew that being being, just naked being. He was in fact being God's being, but in order to recognize himself as such He had to Remove H all his ideas God as something other than himself. So he prayed to God to take that God take God away from him Yes. That's standing on the peak of the mountain alone. Yeahah. B' standing alone, just a pure I am without any qualification and there you're You're alone, not alone as a person, but alone as your being and you're not identified as a Christian, an atheist, a man, a woman, you're just You're just your body, your being Yes And that's right here right now. Sorry I don't know why I love just reminding myself what we're talking about is right here right now everyverybody without exception And forgive me for almost going back a little bit. There was something I wrote on my mirror that you said It's a go to the experience of being say I don't know That is. You're having it right now It's that That question you ask people, are you aware and and people check and you say to what experience are you referring that enables you to say yes. So Sorry to, I'm just trying to go like, everybody's invited to this conversation. Everybody's included. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are Are you present and aw you could even lose present. You could just say, are you aware? Everyone listening is aware. To deny your awareness, you'd have to be aware to deny your awareness. So you are aware So it's not Eotic. It's not Weird. My voice is like I like to think sorry, I'm on a tear. It's just like ink in water. like the sound of my voice appears like ink and water. the feeling of my chair on my body, when I go to it, appears like ink and water and then vanishes. Water is the awareness and it's what every single person is experiencing right now and it is okay. I mean, ye that like Exactly And a simple question like Are you aware? you imagine taking any one of the eight billion of that and asking them the question, are you aware And as long as they understood the question, they would pause Check their experience. and say yes. What experience do they check? They don't go back to their memory of breakfast or their childhood they They go to the experience of being awayare the simple ordinary intimate, familiar experience of being a win And then they answer, yes. Well You could ask someone in a prison cell U Mother to raise her Anybody and at all a Billion ofars. If you ask that question Are you aware? Polish Yes In that pause, everybody briefly touches their true nature if they all that's required. to is to go deeply into that experience of simply being or being aware and see that it's like sampling the space in your room. It's got nothing to do with the walls, the pictchures, the furniture. It's just your experience of being. And that is it lacks nothing, it needs nothing, it resists nothing, it's disturbed by nothing. It's pure peace Yes. and everyone has direct access to their being. Not later twenty two fulls. Yes, not later while you're listening to the podcast This podcast is appearing in is your awareness. You could say it's on the screen. Yes. and you don't know you're looking at the screen You that's that idea of one taste. It's like, without without taking too much more of your time here. it's like A sound is made of the knowing of it A feeling is made of the knowing of it, an emotion is made of the knowing of it. It's all one Yeah screen. It's one thing. it's one and that one that taste of that one of the experience of being where That's what peace is the French writer Albert Camus, he said in the depths of winter, I finally realized that there is within me an eternal summer says it's so beautifuly. In the depths, in spite of all my turmoil of thoughts and feelings, there is deep within me what do you call the eternal summer that this is quiet but bright light of just pel being or being awan And it's always at peace. It lacks nothing It's That's everything I just happened My certain s there's a place that's never been touched. It's never been touched. Yeah It touches all experience intimately, but it is never itself touched or affected by any experience And I take comfort in this when I'm dysregulated or having a rough moment I comfort myself. It's not it is sort of a bypass, but a good bypass. I go, even my doubts emerge in and recceed back in abute. Even my next question es. I told you that John Wheeler said this great thing where it's like Be the question arises, that's the answer. And then the question arises and then the teacher satiates it. and then it recedes And you're left with where you were before you had the question Y Yes, yes So you go, it's not really about answering questions or not having doubts. It's about recognizinging that within which all phenomena or that's too fancy of a word. E is happening When you're answering questions or when I'm answering questions, all I'm really doing is u someomeone remove The obstacles to their recognition of their own being. I can't give them their being. I don't need to. it's present. but there in that moment of frustration or upset or hurt or whatever it is there is something that in their experience, which seems to be obscuring their being It's usually a mixture of thoughts and feelings. All I'm doing is is helping them. Tace not intellectually, but experientially, trace their way back through layer of thoughts and feelings their being and whatever that takes for each individual And you're doing the same thing, Pete. When you are and Talking with people ind winding them up with expectation and anticipation and then you You give them the punchline of the joke. you are skillfully giving bringing to an end this narrative that exists along the line of time. you're interrupting that narrative, that interruption Your being reallyrifullly shines, you get a taste of your being tastes delicious. That's you love. Yeah, that's why we go back and I'm thoroughly addicted to it in a wonderful way. It's interesting, as you said that, I'm like There's so many movies and stories. We tell this story, even if we're not in quote, spiritual people uh, Harry Potter He's actually a wizard. His parents are he's not who he thinks he is He lives under the stairs. He's confined and he's trapped. He gets a letter just a hint. Your parents are actually these powerful wizards. You're more powerful than you Jason Born, do you know kind of the modern day James Bond. Jason Bourne has a journal in that movie and in Big Marker, he writes, Who am I? He's trying to figure out who he is, but he has a sense. He knows Karate. Why do I knowate? He's more powerful We like we like making it power and agency and effect. but really don't do you see that We can't stop telling ourselves this story even if we're not spiritual religious or even interesting. Oh yes, ye. And everybody, even if they have no interest in these matters, everyone has brief glimpses of their Tue nature Re on a daily basis at the end of a thought, on the fulfillment of a desire, the experience of deep sleep And sometimes tremendous grief or heartbreak. everybody has these these moments when' a narrative line of time on which they live their life is interrupted either by an experience that is so pleasant or so unpleasant that it just holds us. That's what we say when we say It took my breath away, brought me to a standstill, it blew my mind. All these expressions are They're expressions of when the horizontal line of the flow of experience that takes place from the horizontal line of time's briefly interrupted. In that interruption, the vertical dimension of being shines. Yes. I would add to that, people say I'm dead Like's that's big one.'m dead. something so amazing, you go, I'm dead. Like you're not dead. Exactly. That's it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. I've fallen deep to asleep whilst remaining awake. Eactly. Yes. And just in closing here, thank you so much for this time. I've absolutely loved it. It's been like Use the analogy of a warm bath. I think that that's one of my favorites is that this stuff isn't clinging or even an excellence or an A plus on a paper, it's actually just this very natural relaxation into something very warm and familiar. Yeah, it's so familiar. it's so it's not you don't have to cling onto it. It's with you. It's who you are. It's always with you. It's inescapable. Yeah Some people might not like an escapeablel because it kind of sounds like paranoia. but I go like can't Leave it. You've never been apart from it and you can't Leave it. which brings us It's not just with you. We talk about death on the show. It's I think it's one of those things that people just go around and they have this unconscious dread. And so in closing, how fitting? Let's close on death We've talked about the air in the vase and the wave being on the ocean and it reaches its finale on the shore, but really nothing happens to it. Time being an illusion. I've heard some masters explain reality like this. I just go The whole thing is just perceived as this life, but really it's all One pancake. Would you talk a little bit about death? notot just to be right or be interesting, but in the interest that people are listening, everybody listening has some ar or interest ores.. I'm going to answer the question in two parts. And for each one, I use a different analogy. First of all Well, what happens to your essential being When you die, I would suggest it's exactly what happens to the space in your room when in fifty years time, yourour home is demolished. somethingomet will happen to the walls and the furniture and the pictures and Nothing will happen at the space As you said earlier, it won't suddenly reunite with the vast space of the universe because it was never separate from it begin with. So Nothing will happen to our being when when when we die being is eternal What will happen to them to our accumulated experience, what will happen to the body and the mind as it fades, subsides, dissolves Let's use another analogy, consonsider the individual like like a wave on the ocean The ocean is the one vast being, each of us individuals are like waves. and every wave H has it a particular size, a particular shape, a particular age and so on So each wave is unique, as indeed all individuals are unique, although they're all made of the same water. So when When we die U I would suggest that the wave subsides on the ocean But the energies that went into the constituted the wave They lose their integrity. The wave has disappeared, but It doesn't necessarily mean that the content of your mind is extinguished. When a wave dissolves on the ocean, the ripple, the energies that constituted the way Expand out into the ocean as ripples. And in that way the energies that constituted the wave are dispersed in the broader medium of the ocean And in that sense, you could say the wave donates its energies to the ocean which then become incorporated in the ocean And I would suggest that although nothing happens to our being, nothing happens to the water out of which the wave is made. energies of our mind and body, our accumulated experience, everything we've ever thought and felt and understood. all of that disperses into the broader medium of awareness in which All of our minds arise. and in a way we We donate the content of our life's experience broader medium of mind in which all humanity is immersed. And in that sense we We we Tribute our experience to humanity all the subsequent waves that develop on the ocean generated out of the ripples that exist on the ocean So the ripples that are left overver from our dissolving wave may find themselves part of a new wave down the line. So in that way So what I'm trying to do is give a picture of twowo things. onene that our being, nothing happens to our being. That is eternal, it's changeless, ever present. but that the body and the mind are not that the mind is not completely extinguished A death of mine carries on its trajectory on the ocean of awareness in the ocean of awareness. So This is a very simple question, but I think you like simple questions. Is there anything to be afraid of? shouldhould we be afraid of death No, no, we shouldn't be afraid of death because really the recognition of the nature of our being Um puts an end to the fear of death because we know that what we essentially are