Final Acts and Historical Legacy

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK The ultimate cookout starts with the ultimate ingredients. At Whole Foods Market, no antibiotics ever burgers and kebabs are prepped and ready to throw on the grill. Fire up a juicy ribbeye. Grab creamy potato salad and savory flatbreads from the prepared foods department, and round it all out with three hundred sixty five brand condiments, chips and dips at everyday low prices Whole Foods Market Make your summer sizzle. ar tour get lost in the songs you love to sing with special guests for nine. ter and Timothy Wayne in Slect Cities, tickets on sale now at liiveNation. com. Hello and welcome to Your Dead Toe, the Radio four comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster. And today we're bouncing back to the Chinese imperial court and bowing our heads in deference as we learn all about one of the nineteenth century's most formidable rulers, Empress Daaja Zu Xi. and to help us we have two very special guests History Cor She's profess of Chinese history at the University of Manchester, where she specializes in Ming and Qing era trade and economic history. She's the author of numerous books, including the recent Railway Iperialism in China, a political biography' Professor Yang Wen Chung. Wlcome Yang Wen. Thank you. And in Comy Corner, She's an award winning comedian and writer. You'll recognize her from loads of TV, including her glorious victory on Task Master, and maybe you've seen her recent set out stand upp show But Daddy, I love her. And you'll certainly remember her from our back catalogue, including episodes on Ashantig Ghana, the nauy nun Benedetta Carlini, and The History of Coffee. It'sopie Duka. Welcome back, Sophie. He, thank you. Sishu? Oh God, I don't want to say I was like geing got to like a horse up to a jump and I was like, you're going brutalize the most basic word in Chinese S. That's pretty good. Thank you Eward. Thank you. We've been all over the world together on the show. We've never done Chinese history with you. No. How are you with Chinese history? I think it's probably bad because I was educated in the UK. Yeah, I don't know a lot about China and what I know about China has probably been like filtered through quite a problematic lens did go to China recently. I actuallyually I say I went to China. I went through Shenzhen airport And it was a great experience. Great. I loved it. Do that count as going to China? It doesn It doesn't. No Tendon. It doesn. Tendon really is not China no And does the name Empress Dowager s she ring any bells I think I've seen it written down. I think it's like I've probably also heard it, but I haven't connected it because the spelling which Roman Yeah that is like CI Xi. That's right. in English, we spell it CI XI. So I think it's probably hard to connect what I've heard to the name. I feel like she's one of these like historical badass women, which maybe is slightly infantilizing She feels like she's an icon. I hope she would not going to have learn that she's like a terrible villain now. We will see' see. So, what do you know And that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, The Soad and No. This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Empress Daajetu, she is known throughout East Asia, where she's the subject of any number of films, books and TV shows. But despite her decades in power, she's much less famous in the English speaking world, than of course her contemporary Queen Victoria Although, Su S does have a brief appearance in Bernardo Botalucci's nineteen eighty seven film The Last Emperor So who was this woman who ruled China for nearly five decades? How did she cling to power for so long, and why was it never wise to accept one of her cakes? Let's find out. Professor Yang Wen, before we get into u Xi's birth Could you please paint us a picture of China at the time This was the Qing Dynasty and they were from Manchuria they are Mans. They conquered China in sixteen forty four It's amazing, five hundred thousand people came down to China to conquer this country of one hundred twenty million They ruled China from sixteen forty four to nineteen eleven until the revolution And the center of power would be what we now call Beijing Yeah, but was called Peking then Pking yes. And this's other name Biing as well. So there's different names And they lived, what was their palace like? What was it called Forbidden city Forbidd for whom The ordinary people. A. They've been on the throne for four centuries at the start of our story And Sophie, given that so she ends up ruling China for this five decades stretch, what kind of family do you think she comes from? O a Pful family. So she father is a government official. I mean, what level of power would he have had? Yeah, so her father it was basically mid level provincial, very low, not very high in the Echelon. I've called her S Siv That's not really her name in childhood or her youth is it? Yeah. This is her reign title. Yeah. Okay. What do her family call her? She's like a controversial character. There's lots of debates about where she was born, what was her nickname. And some people think it's orchid girl her. That's g nice. Yeah. Her childhood she's educated, she can read and write. Yeah, even though her father is mid level They' manantu. rememember Mantu are overlords. Okay Yeah. so no matter how low you are as a manantu You're always higher than the Chinese. I see. Yes. I would say she had a very good upbringing because she was able to read and write. She's a very good painter. Wow. And she could sing. in a way, they were bringing her up probably in the hope that she will marry up. Yeah ye Unfortunately, her father was caught taking bribes, Sophie. He. He was caught' a hand in the cookie jar.. He lost his job in eighteen fifty one. when she was sixteen, they returned to Beijing and he died. He fell ill and died Of shame. mayaybe of shame. of illness. Yeah ye. What is this next stage for age sixteen? Does she go to Beijing and tryry and become a consort, Is that the route? Yeah. so what happens is every two or three years, the court will have an order. iot saying Mantew families who have girls between thirteen and sixteen or seventeen, twelve, that age must sent them to the court to be selected. It's like a beauty contest.. So so it's a level by level elimination. Wow. So by the time you get to the immperial court, Ms Manu. Yeah so Yeah. Yeah Miss Manu it's a beauty contest. Yeah. I if you're hot, you're like ure you're bankking on that. I've never had that.. So that's something certainly I've never traded on my hot nose So we have a sixteen year old going to court and she is selected. Yes. so was her sister? Oh really? Younger sister But she was given to a prince. So she was given to the brother of the emperor So She when she was chosen She actually because there are nine ranks? Okay. Nine ranks of emperors concubine. Yes. Okay. So there's only one empress the rest the senior, you know, all the sorts of titles. So she actually starts at rank six out of nine. So she's nine. Yeah. It's like sets and maths I was going to ask you, Sophie. I mean, you know, if you were starting on level six of nine, Yeah, how would you try and stand out amongst your competition? Theres you know, there's ten other girls. T ten other girls. Yeah. It feels very much like lot of TikTok format. Yeah Pr iss going to pop a balloon if he doesn't like it I think I would be like, okay, everyone here is really pretty and maybe I've got like an additional sk, maybe I can soothe him. Maybe like I can sing Like that's I'm saying hypothetical I would do that if I was to saying it would not be soothing maybe I would like sort of try and show him some of what I've learned outside so that he knows that I'm intelligent and useful as well as pretty. Nice Or you know, just have a son So presumably, a young wom Lady Lan charms the emperor because she ends up in you know obviously with a scenic career. So he sort of chooses her and she becomes his favorite byy sort of age nineteen or so she's the top of the concubines. In a way, the only difference is that she gave birth to her son. O. On the twenty seventh of april eighteen fifty six birth to a son called Di Twin sun, she can walk with her head high. She's promoted and every time she's promoted, she gets a new name Oh she goes from Lanner to Lady Land. Then she becomes concubini. Yeah. Then when she has a child concubini, a year later, she gets elevated to the fourth rank becomes consort y. Yeah. o. And then one year later she becomes noble consort Y. and she goes to the third le. So she started at level six and she goes to level three which' as far as it can go. Phenomenal. Yeah. She can't be empress because the empress was already there. Yeah Empress is like the first wife you never touch.ight You can't touch her because it's a political marriage. Yeah Yeah. Is her promoted completely at the discretion of the emperor. Yes. H Palent helped at this point becausecause it's mid eighteen fifty.. We have conflicts war coming piping rebellion, the domestic rebels and the British coming Second Oan warar. The Russians were annexing land in the north. So it's a lot of trouble The young emperor really was not fit for the job. Yeah. he's only a few years old now there, isn't he? he's only twenty years Yeah.. So during this time the emperor is struggling and he's turning to drugs, which means presumably someone needs to run the show. And we have a young lady who going I'll do it. Yeah. So she began by she goes into his office and there's a stacks of documents, he needs to go over and decide. you know somebody we need thirty million pounds, whatever tailes and for the rebels and there's a disaster here, the people are dying, right? So there are things that he needs to do to decide but he's like You know, he's just not up to it. Yeah. And guess who's up to it? Yeah It's not the emmpress who says I'll do it. It's Level three. Level three. Yeah. Oh my God. Cons Yeah Cons And she lo doing this. And of course, they are defeated in the Eccondopium War. The treaty is forced upon them in the Kowloon Peninsula and so on. So it's gone really wrong. And then it goes even worse. So Fet do you know what happens to the emperor He gets real sick frombopum. Yeah. he gets real real sick and then he gets as sick as you can get, he gets dead. He gets dead. Yeah, he died in eighteen sixty one Which presumably leaves our lady consonsort Yi in serious trouble, you think, right? Oh yeah, because she's not in favour There's no more emperor in favour. But of course, she does have a son. Oh, who is the only heir? The only heir So is this where Yng Wen we get now another name change? Yeah we finally get to meet Xu Xi? Yes. H. Okay final for. Fal for. Actually no, there's more to come than. So she now is the regent on behalf of her little boy Yeah, so what happens Be the boy is the only heir, only son, so he gets to be emperor Now the original empress becomes Empress Dowager. Right. But because she's the mother of this six year old boy. So she is also elevated to Empress Dowaga. Sushi is below The Eperress Dowager So Empress Dowager number one is Su An and Empress Dowager number two is our Lady Lan and Y turned to she. Y. Okay. Wow. Wow, it's a lot of extended family. It's a lot of extended family and also two women who now have to join forces to run the show, but do they have the same values and yeah ye ye. So surprisingly Yangwen, the two women team up, right? They do. They become a kind of double act. I just love that. Yeah. How does that work? Who makes decisions? Or do they both have to agree on a decision? Yes they do. Right So in the beginning, they worked actually like a good team because they have common interest Because the emperor had appointed an agency of eight ministers, eight m Yeah This eight man didn't treat these two women. Very well As an equal. R. Of course you don't like that, right?ike what? I'm remmember of Stagjo and you' treating me like this. Yeah. And they laed a bit of a coup. I mean Yes. Yes. so they get rid of the minister. get rid of theter.. Ohazing This is great. How does. At the start of the episode, you said bit of a kind of boss labor vibe. Whatad ass Yeahah. Yeah. collollaboration. Yeah So far, how do you feel about her? I mean she's obviously risen up. I feel positive about her. Okayike she's enterprising.. I feel like she's like done right by her family, she's had a son. I on bd. Okay, we'll check back in later because maybe it changes. This power sharing it's fine while the emmperor is a boy He's small, he's six, he's little, he doesn't understand the world.. Surely when he becomes thirteen or fourteen, he's going to want to get rid of his Mum and his stepmum or whatever it is. he's going want to go solo. So he wasn't a good emperor and then he rushes into many decisions. He gets, you know, because can imagine eighteen years old GM emperor. I could wear anything, right? He fires ministers without consulting his two mothers And of course, it doesn't work that way Yeah. And he had a much better relationship with Tu Ann. That his biological mother than his biological mother. Yeah. Because the biological mother is a dominating figure. o Yeah she would fap him She slapped him. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow. And she would slap him with the ruler in China if you failed exam or didn't do your homework, you stuck your hands out and the teacher or your mother can use the ruler to beat you He's the emperor of China. Yes I know I know the ruler with a ruler. Yay, there you go.. she stalls him. She won't hand him full power y Do you know what she demand of him first? He has to get married. Yes, very good. Yes. You've got good instincts here, Sophie. I don't have mothers al look. Each of mothers al look. Yes, she demands you must get married first And so what, they choose the girls for him? Ah, that comes the real interesting story. Okay. becausecause you have the beauty contest. o, right And he's eighteen years old. M Manchu Yeah Yeah he go pops around. Oh yeah, all those nice, good looking girls. And then He chose the one he likes. also the one that Empress San likek. Right Okay It's a ranking family pololitical marriage, but this is a pretty girl very well educated, knew how to be empress and all that. By eighteen seventy four, the emperor He gets ill And I think we know where this story goes because we've heard it already before. What happens to him this time? He died? He died. What was his illness? Because there was an official illness and there was a real illness. Yeah, The official was smallpox. Okay. But because he's got spots all over the place and his body was kind of rotting We think it's syphilous. A, okay And so so she, she has lost a sort of a husband of sorts. She's now lost her son There are now no more men to control, Sophie. So how is she going to get clink to power Or I guess there are no boys at all. Well she finds one. Oh She finds one. Yeah. she digs up her nephew, right? Yeah. For her to continue to be Empress Dowager, she needs another son. So where did she get the other son rememember her sister was also in the very and the sister was married off to the brother of the emperor. So it's her own nephew from both sides Yeah. The ultimate cookout starts with the ultimate ingredients. At Whole Foods Met, no antibiotics ever burgers and kebabs are prepped and ready to throw on the grill. Fire up a juicy ribeye. Grab creamy potato salad and savory flatbreads from the prepared foods department, and round it all out with three hundred sixty five brand condiments, chips and dips at everyday low prices Whole Foods Market, Make your summer sizzle Last month, Mary's team did something unheard of. They closed the books before Friday. No late nights, no missing receipts So what happened RAamp happened. RMamp automates receipts, enforces policy in real time, and gives teams total visibility. That's why it's used by forty thousand companies like Shopify and CBRE Finance teams, want your weekends back? getet two hundred and fifty dollars off when you join at ramp dot com slash trial. That's ramp dot com slash trial Eight, seven, seven, three nine three four, four, four eight Anoon five so f so fine. G another provider living behind. Come on everybody. let's get online. thirty a month gonna blow your mind. Five oes don't hesitate. L it in now before's too late eight seven, seven, three nine three four Four four eight turn apply the optimum. com for details So she's onto sort of emmperor number three Yeah ye So she's back in charge again, right? Yeah. So she's back in the hot seat. Yeah. And a lot of manantual nobles were against this because this is not natural. And before we go there, H Daughter in law, rememember Her son had an empress. The one she didn't like R. She was actually pregnant That pregnant This pregnant emmpress Dowager emmpress who was about eighteen, nineteen years old died. Th months after The Tongg emmperor. Yes died. Suspicious timingious timing.. She was pregnant. And we know that for sure. And and soon after, the Empress Dowager Su Anne also died. Suspicious timing. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And do you know how so she was rumored to have been involved in this second one? With the Empress Dowagia her Her former sort of ner in C tribe with own business. I feel like a poisoning. Yeah, it is a poisoning. Yeah. I feel like that happens with people with fl names. Do you know what the poison was put in Oh Drake No, I mentioned at the beginning actually it' put in a sweet cake. A sweet cake? Sweet cake. A bake offff special and suuddenly, the Dowager Empress Suran is dead. People at court are suspicious, but they can't prove it. Nothing is proved. So now we have one woman running the show. Yes because there's a four year old boy over here. And only one ever want. That's what she wants. So finally, Sushi is the absolute power behind She is the throne, really? Yes. Yeahes. Soophie obviously you're not going to commit a crime anytime soon. but if you had to If you were going to have to take out a comedy rival, Catherine Bohart. I could get rid of it I would Catherine never anything I served. P you can keep that in.. How would I do it? I think I'd have to do something in the green room I think if you put free chips in the green room in any green room in the country, comics are going to eat true. So I think it would have to be like hot fries. The problem is all the comedians would die. It wouldn't be just one, you would lose an ent entire bell of comedians. Yeah. But I mean like I don't mind taking out a night at the comedy store Y How do you imagine her as a ruler? We've talked about her as sort of climbing the ladder in terms of court politics? What do you imagine she's like in terms of China I imagine she's not fun. I love that. I don't think she's I think because I think she's like had a lot of time tolerating these wasteterl or literal baby kings. so I feel like she's maybe a bit more austere. She's a bit more tight with the purse strings a bit more punitive Sure. Is that correct? Yang Wen, what is In terms of her public policy in terms of what she does for the people of China. What can we ascribe to her? In a way She wass a good ruler becausecause after the secondecond O War, China basically avoided conflict with the West twentyenty or thirty years Yeah. And she launched reform. She sanctioned a lot of reform projects China was learning from the West, catching up, modernizing, industrializing. She sanctioned all those projects. Yeah. warships and weapons. Yes, railways and all that stuff.. So teelegraph lines and modern factories. Yeah. I mean, you've written a book the history of railways in China. That's her policy. And then of course, her nephew, slash son, grows up and he becomes Emperor Gangju Yes, and the same story with Ch really the emmperress I was gonna say repes again. Right. So she's like, can't you can't be emperor until you're married and I'm gonna choose your wife. Yeah that right? Yes There's all these external pressures on her, these wars, China fighting Japan and France and so on And she's trying to bring in these reforms in the army and in society. But there is a coup against her That's Sophie And do you know what happens in this coub? Do you know who leads the Cb, Hs who I'd say probably led by another concuubine. Oh, nice. Yeah. rival sushi's gonna climb aroundind a concubine Yeah somew hundred the nine levels. Yeah. It's a good guess. Yang I mean, it's not a concubine Do you want to tell us who it is It is the emmperor It's herw It's amazing that weve called it a coup because he is the em He's like hold on a minute.. It's a coup, it's my own throne. but yeahes he tries to get rid of her Yes. And she does some political judo Yes And she gets rid of him. Yeah. Well she put him under house arrest. for the next This is the audacity, I love it. Yeah Yeah. This makes a fantastic film. She put him under house arrest on an island Isid the rest. Yeah Yeah. Fom september eighteen ninety eight to november nineteen oh eight when he died. So ten years. tenen years. So is he sort of secretly like does the rest of the country know that their emperor is stuck in a shed somewhere? No, Really? Because all the edicts were still issued in the name of the emperor The Gongju emmperor. Okay. So there we go. So if you come for the well, I was going gonna say come for the king, If you come for the Empresss Dowager, you better not miss, soophie. Better not miss Wow. So her own nephew in House arrest. an island. Possibly poisoned her sort of business partner. Psibly poisoned a pregnant pregnant woman Yeah. died in nineteen oh eight. Sophie, do you know what her final act was? Literally within days before her death? What's the last thing she did? In her final days, she knew she was gonna die. She's at the end of her life. She picked her air Well, do you remember the emperor who's still in house arrest? Oh yeah, on the island. She got rid of him. Oh no. One day before she died. sixteen hours before. sixixteen hours before she died. Oh made sure He wasn't gonna come back to power. Wow. So she's a real bitter lady. Yeah aot bit. I mean she's like, you don't have to get bitter if you takeake care of business before you go. Yeah. She just she lined up all the dominoes. Yeah. he she was dying And she said to people around her that he must die before I die Okay, so she bumped off the emperor. So who was the next person to take over is the last emperor, the famous arle emperor. Yeah the last emperor. And he's another three year old boy. Yes. So when you see boy emperors in Chinese history, something fishy is going on. Right, okay. That three year old is the son of the nephew that she murders. And of course, he abdicates in nineteen eleven and that is the end of immperial story. So quite alive, Sophie. Yeah. How do you feel about Sushi now?, I feel resoundingly positive. I feel real good about her because I feel like she entered her villain era and I'm not sure she left it. Yes she did' really depart from the villain era, but She played the game. I I did. He was an incredible player of the game Also a little bit of poison a little bit of poison is not the worst thing in the world. And I think I really respect how she refused to let adult men be in charge. Hey, I don't love that she murdered a pregnant woman. Sure. And you can quote me on that I can't stay mad at her. I know she did some bad things. Okay. But I think she is sort of an inspiration. The new one's window That brings us to our nuance window. This is where Sophie and I sit quietly and brainstorm noble names for ourselves for two minutes. We need I think eight new names each probably. whileile Professor Yang Wen holds court and tells us something that we need to know about Empress Dowaget Sui. and my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Professor Jong has been wronged in some ways by historians for generations because she's a woman. And because of allegedly the things She did. If you look in the long run If she wasn't there China might have disappeared in eighteen sixty two So can say that she helped pop up the Qing Dynasty for another four or five decades after the Second opium War That's number one, number two The reform she stepped in to stop Hundredry is reformed If you look from today's perspective Might be too early China might not have been ready for it as a country because if China was not ready, it will cause chaos because the political reforms that the Guangsu Emperor wantanted. She also has one saving Gace as historians have managed to mind further into the archives We realized that the Guangshu emperor, who wanted all those radical reform her nephew emperor, actually was in secret commommunication with the Japanese he met with the F time Japanese Prime Minister there was reccommendation from ranking Chinese intellectuals Japan should steer China. eighteen ninety eight is something she could not accept And that is something that today's Chinese