Modern Rediscovery and Final Reflections

BBC Sounds, music, radio podcasts . From that crazy viral video to bizarre trends that are taking over our social feeds. We investigate the stuff you're scrolling through in our brand new podcast Top Comment . I'm BBC correspondent, Mariana Spring, and I'm investigative reporter Matt Shay. Every week we look at the stories spilling out from our screens and into real life. To work out what's actually real . And what's not? Top comment. Listen on BBC Sounds . Hello and welcome to Your Dead To Me, the Radio four Comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian author and broadcaster and today we are grabbing Albesti and gallivanting back to ancient Mesopotamia to learn all about the epic of Gilgamesh. And to help us on this daunting quest, we have two very special guides. In History Corner, she's an honorary fellow at Wolfson College, University of Oxford, where she researches and teaches on the history of Mesopotamia, Cineiform, and the Acadian language. You might have read her wand the full recent book between two rivers, Ancient Mesopotamia and the Birth of History. It is glorious and you'll remember her from our episodes on the ancient Babylonians and Canaform. It's Dr. Moody Alashid. Welcome Moody. Thank you, thanks for having me. It's awesome to be back. We love having you back. Comedy corner. She's an award winning, comedian, actor and storyteller. You might have seen her sell out Edinburgh Finn show, or caught her on Breaking The News, or Rosie Jones' Disability Comedy Extravaganza, or her new radio full show, Human Watch , and you'll definitely remember her from our episode on Scottish hero Robert Bruce, not Robert The Bruce. It's Marilyn Robertson. Welcome back Marilaine. Yeah, I thank you for having me back to teach me more stuff. Marily Lane Last time you let slip that you have a degree in archaeology. Yes. And we immediately went, this is interesting. How much will she know? Well, that's the thing because I did not know much about Robert Bruce at all, but I did do my dissertation on the Epic of Gilgamesh But I did my dissertation on how has the imagery from the Epic of Gilgamesh changed according to different power struggles across Bronze Age and it was so bad that I almost failed my entire degree because of it. And I thought, Oh Gilgamesh, I remember this and then I thought in my brain and I don't so watch really much. I can't even remember which one's the Tigris and which ones the Euphrates . I'm really rusty. Okay, so a refresher course for you. It will be. It'll also be like me bringing shame to the university. I don't know if I should even name the university at this point. Because when you said about it, I was like, I'd love to hear about this again, but I don't remember anything about it . Okay, well we can fix that. I remember Bronze Age . So what do you know? Okay, this is the So what do you know? This is where I ever go at guessing what you are lovely l istener might know about today's subject and you might have heard that the Epic of Gilgamesh features a great flood narrative similar to the biblical story of Noah or maybe you've even counted Gilgamesh as the King of Heroes from the Fate Anime series or if you've read Elishafshuff's twenty twenty four novel There are Rivers in the Sky or Listen to Johnny Flynn and Robert McFarland's Gilgamesh inspired album Lost in the Cedar Wood. But if you're a movie buff like me, you're playing out of luck because no one's done any kind of movies about Gilgamesh which is very disappointing. So who exactly was Gilgamesh? Was he really that epic? And what are the consequences of rejecting a goddess? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Moody. We'll start with some basics for my benefit and perhaps M'sar bienelaefit. Although I'm sure it'll be all flowing back to you. What exactly is the epic of Gilgamesh? So it's a long poem from ancient Mesopotamia that tells a transformative journey of a king called Gilgamesh who ruled the city of Uruk. It's originally about three thousand or three thousand one hundred lines long, but only about twenty four hundred or twenty five hundred remain, compared to, for example, fifteen thousand in the Iliad. It's written in Caneiform on twelve tablets, and we have to remember that Caniform was a script, not a language, used in ancient Mesopotamia, which is the region between and around the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, in what is now Iraq, Syria, and parts of Turkey , which was home to a succession of civilizations like the Sumerians, the Acadians, Assyrians, and Babylonians. Well, that's a very good summary, well done. Okay, Mariellaine, you've already said Bronze Age. How long ago do you think the epic of Gilgamesh was first written down . I should know that the Bronze Age was around three thousand B C, is that right? That's about right, yeah, but we probably go a little later with our first recording of the actual story . Yeah, so we don't actually know how old this story itself is because it has these oral roots that we have hints of in the language and in other references. So it was probably recited, for example, in the courts of Kings , including the Kings of Ur around twenty one hundred two thousand BCE, but it's probably older than that. And then some of the earliest tablets, written kind of records of versions of this story come around that time period, the third millennium BCE , or the two thousands BCE. There's an old Babylonian version, and then there's a kind of standard Babylonian version, which is the one that gets copied over and over and over and over again that comes from around probably eleven hundred BC E written by a scholar named Sin Leki Unini . He named in a later literary catalogue so we're not too sure to what degree we can call him the author. Does he just establish the most popular version . This raises fun in the nerdy sense questions about authorship in ancient Mesopotamia, where it's more like people are links in a chain in the life story of a story. The tale itself, the story itself is more important than the author. Gilgamesh was not always the name of the character. What? Do you want to guess what his original name was Stephen? Steven . Stephen King of a Rook It wasn't Gilgamesh. No, no, hello , what was his name? It was Bilgamesh. Bilgamesh. Steven . The boring question you probably get asked a lot is Is, G wasilgamesh a real gu who then gets turned into a literary folk hero? Or is this pure speculation, pure fantasy? Nobody really knows the answer to that. He's on what we would he's referenced in what we would consider a semi historical document which is called we call it the Sumerian King list. It's basically a list of kings in southern what is now southern Iraq what we would call Sumer. But it begins with these mythical primordial kings like Alulim who ruled for thirty thousand years or Atana who ruled for four hundred years. So we know that these are probably not real people or maybe they are based on real people, but these are not their real reigns. There are real kings on the list though, that we know existed that are corroborated from other sources like King Sargon. So is he a literary character who moved into the history books or is he a historical figure who took on legendary proportions . That's interesting. Yeah. Moody, how does our story of Gilgamesh begin? Is it do we meet him in adulthood? Do we meet him as a king? We do. He's the tyrannical king of Uruk. He exhausts the men and boys by forcing them to build a humongous wall, which is real, an archaeological wall and play violent sports. And finally, the women beg the gods and goddesses to create a match or an equal for Gilgamesh to ch allenge him and just calm this guy down really. Right. I studied this at university and the version I learned was he's lonely and needs to French which makes me question what source I used . But I'll tell you this, when I did my course in Romans, I used to use rotten Romans. It is horrible history spirits. Yes. And my professor said, How did you know that because I used to come out with fats that the professor didn't know and I'd have to be like, quote Gerry Dairy. You made references . Okay, so he needs a friend or he needs an equal to sort of match him in the ring . Who is created or who is sent down to match or fight or play with Gilkamesh . So the gods create enkidu from clay and divine blood. There's a really beautiful description. He's born in silence, in other words, not with the cries of childbirth. He's at first a wild man. He's described as being very hairy and almost animal like. And he lives among the animals, the gazelles. And he causes grief to hunters because he's constantly foiling their traps and rescuing the animals. Oh , yeah. So Gilgamesh learns about this when the hunters complain effectively. He learns about Enkidu from the complaints. So he's an animal rights activist. Yeah. He's going along sabotaging traps and things. Exactly. Okay, and Gilgamesh is like, This guy's ruining my hunting. Okay, I'm going to go sorted now. Okay. How do you think tyrannical Gilgamesh addresses this new threat? This is the one time I think I'll bet right. This is the one thing I remember from the story which take from that what you will . They get a really attractive lady. Yes. They cover her nice smelling oils and they're like show him why he wants to enter society and she seduces him and Anki Du is like, I'd rather be with humans than animals and thus ends my knowledge . Beautifully put, and suitable the radio for so well done. Moody, I mean, Mary Lane did a very beautiful elegant description. So who is the woman who was sent along? Yeah, so he sends Gilgamer sends a woman called Shamhat to seduce Enkidu effectively. She's a temple worker, maybe a sex worker, a priestess of Ishtar and, afterwards he comes to Uruk and confronts Gilgamesh, but they turn out to be equally matched and become friends slash lovers. So what is the first adventure they go on? And what spurs the adventure? Why do they need to go on a quest? We have this scene where Enkidu is feeling sad. I'm keeping in mind that lots of bits are missing from the epic. We're not hundred percent sure why. And to cheer him up, Gilgamesh decides they need to make a name. He needs to make a name for himself, but Enkidu is not so keen . They go on a quest effectively to kill the guardian of the cedar forest, Humbaba. So Enkidu and Gilgamesh primarily has killed an important forest guardian. What do you think of the repercussions for Gilgamesh having committ ed this crime? I just feel like Gilgamesh has shown no remorse so far that I just don't seem showing remorse now. Also, I feel like Gilgamesh, if he's real or not, has had a real hand in writing this tail, so I'm like Gilgamesh does something bad but he's still great . Oh , you think he authors his own West narrative? For sure. Oh , okay. My name's start with a G . I defeat the Forest Monst er. I don't know, do they fall out? Does Enkidu fallout for Gilgamesh? Well, I want Gilgamesh to grow and learn and go to therapy like I was promised, but maybe they have to break up. Well, that's how Romcoms work. So is it a romcom movie? What happens next? Not quite, although there is a third party who enters , who is quite quite a powerful one. So after the fight the goddess Ishtar, who's again, the goddess of love and war violence. Those two things don't seem like the same remit. No, she's quite a she's a very volatile goddess. Sure. Oh yeah. Take the same pleasure in love making and murder., I guess Yeah, she's okay. Interesting figure. Sure And she sees Gilgamesh and falls in love and proposes marriage, but Gilgamesh rejects her, listing all her dead or otherwise diminished former lovers, one of whom gets turned into like an ear wig or something like that . And she gets pretty angry and calls on her father, Anu, the sky god, to send down the bull of heaven, which is the Constellation Taurus to kill Gilgamesh. That's me . I'm Taurus. Are you? Yeah. Okay, well you might not like what happens next in this story though. Why? Well because the Bull of Heaven is sent down to kill Gilgamesh, to kill Games Gil gamesh, he's not being punished for slaughtering the innocent forest guardian. He's being punished for rejecting a sex god. I feel like he's learned nothing . But he's going to fight now a celestial bull. Mary Lane, how would you go about defeating cel aestial b all? You take it to a celestial abatoir in the heavens around killing time. Yeah. Humane gun on the head. Okay. Spoken like a tree farmer. Yeah. Yeah. Moody . Can you give us the gory details of the goring? Yes , so they work together essentially because the bull of heaven is quite a destructive creature. And as he approaches Uruk, everything he does essentially ends up killing huge amounts of people every, you know, every time he breathes a huge gulf opens up in the ground and swallows people up, etc . For memory Enkiu grabs him and then Gilgamesh stabs him in the head between Oh horns. So bolt guns pretty' accurate then. Yeah . Just a sword in this one or a blade of some kind. Okay. They cut out the heart. Yes, they cut out the heart. They offer it to Anu, the sky god, and then they throw its penis at Ishtar her . I mean, that feels like a very childish move. Yeah, yeah, quite it's quite the move and she's the goddess of like love and desire and stuff. Yeah . Very petty. It is. There's no growth here, emotionally is there? Well for that time. So I think I was right, he doesn't learn anything. He learns nothing. Okay. But to be honest, I suppose here he's just defending himself from a bull that is attacking him, but he did really shame Ishtar for that to happen. He did. So then what happens to Gilgamesh and Enkidu? So the gods are pretty angry I mean they've, no kidding. Constellation , which is bad . They sentence Enkidu to death and he actually dreams of being in the underworld. Why not Gilkamesh? Because Enkidu's just like the guy who's dragged being along Gil.mesh is sort of like that typical like entitled guy that just never has to face consequences for anything he does, but he's about to face the ultimate consequence in a way because Ankidu does die. He dreams that he's in the underworld and he dies. And Gilgamesh is utterly grief stricken. Right . To the point where he won't even let them take the body away. And there's all this imagery of him of him mourning and some of it compares him to like a lioness. So there's like some women like a woman mourning her cubs or I mean a female lion mourning her cubs. So it's such a loss he won't let them take the body away until a maggot crawls out of Enkidu's nose and he's finally like okay, yes, you are, dead and I have to let go. And he arranges this huge funeral and lists tons of gifts given in Enkidu's memory. Wow. Gilgamesh has been punished by having the one thing he loves taken from him. Yeah . Mary Lane, what do you think Gilgamesch, aggrieving Gilgamesh does after the funeral? I mean, I don't think he's learnt anything . You don't think he's grown from this? No. Okay I think he wants revenge ? Oh, so you think he's going to go John Wick? Would he go after Anu? Wow. That would be a power move. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't put it past this guy . Okay, so Marione thinks it's sort of revenge mission, he's gonna I mean, to be honest, if he did go for a revenge mission, that would probably be the most coherent structural journey thing he's done so far in this story. Yes. So maybe he doesn't. But coherently he'd go for revenge. Okay . Interesting. Yeah, I mean, you're right that there's no growth in that aven . Instead of being like, I should be less horrible and calm down , he becomes really anxious about death and embarks on this new quest to attain immortality. So it's quite a self anxious reaction. Okay , so he goes on a quest for immortality. Yes. And he seeks out the wisdom from one of the sole survivors of the Great Flood , the only immortal living man. There is an immortal living woman alongside him that isn't really. But she's not mentioned for her. She's just she's just his wife. He has an end bird pretty much. So he's he goes in search of a man called Utah Napisti, you know, in broadbrush strokes. The gods forgot, basically to build death into human DNA . And so population just explodes and it's just too loud and they're like, we can't sleep. We got to get rid of these people. So they decide to send down a deluge that will wipe out all life on Earth. He's the lone survivor of the flood and because his software doesn't have death built in, he's just living forever with his wife. Yeah. And Gilgamesh is like, he must know how to live forever. So I'm gonna go find him. I'm gonna have to suffer the way Ankidu did. Gilgamesh is desperately trying to sort of get the secret of knowledge. Does he sink or swim in his quest to live forever? So Utah Nabishti basically takes one look at him and says you're on the wrong quest . He recounts the whole flood story, explains that Giligames can'ht and shouldn't follow this path to immortality , and he challenges Gilgamesh to stay awake for seven nights. This conquering sleep is sort of like conquering death and Gilgamesh fails. And I think he wakes up to seven loaves of bread that have been baked each day. just approved Just seven breakfast. He hasn't eaten. Yeah. Exactly. And so Utana Prishti explains that eternal life is not an individual survival. It's not the survival of Enkidu. It's not Gilgamesh. It's not even his own survival , but the survival of the whole community. And because life can end in an instant, you should make the most of what time that you do. That's really beautiful. Yeah . Well, Gilgamesh, see the beauty in? You're worried he's not gonna learn he threw a willy at someone else . It's a good point. Does our violent sad king finally go oh I've been chasing the wrong thing all along ? No No . Gilgamesh, come on. I know . So he's I don't remember except blocked out This guy. So relentless. He's so he's just so refusing to grow as a person. Exactly. Okay , not yet, not yet. Okay, all right. So Uton Africhti is like, well, okay, fine. There is something called the plant of heartbeat, which you can find at the bottom of the bottom of the bottom of the ocean , basically in the Apsu with this sort of subterranean lake or freshwater source, which is a mythical source of kind of nourishment of groundwater but also of wisdom. So there's this connection between water , wisdom , and memory. This story is like Babylonian. So it was very, very far away from the Hittites. They had versions of it though, so it's traveling. Because in Hittite in Hatusilli, is that right? Hatusa, yeah. Hatusa. Sorry, their capital . There was the but beside it, they called it a liminal space where they had this like water going into this tunnel and they thought it was something to do with like a passage into another realm or that kind of wisdom. Is an interpretation in archaeology, which is the classic We don't know we don't know Ritual Ritual Ritual Good Ridge like that's we wash our hands so strike that from my notes Yeah. Yes, because the hittites would come along later, I suppose the hitt es are around the same time. Yeah, and they are using cuneiform as well. So the myth does travel and they have versions of the Gilgamesh epic, although I don't know when they date when they dated . They were like he was three foot five. And his name was Steven . Okay, so the water and wisdom, the kind of plant of heartbeat, Bilgamesh knows where to get it. Does he pop on his scuba gear and go diving? How does it go? Yeah, he ties these heavy stones to his feet and he goes and retrieves the plants of heartbeat and he does resurfaces and he takes a shower and a snake steals the plant . Aw so did you hide it when that happens? Is it Yank goes straight over to Eden's like Yo Eve Let's right. Try some of this apple. Isn't it? Apple confrontinate they don't. I mean, snakes are quite, you know, they have they're good and bad in mythology of ancient mespitation. So they're ambiguous. It's a cheeky snake. It's a very cheeky it's a yink moment as Marilyn said. Okay, so the snake has stolen his eternal life. Yeah, gutting . Does Gilgamesh now get the memo and go okay I'll give up on the whole living for everything? At long last. Hooray personal development . Okay Moody, tell us about Gilgamesh's personal grow th. Yeah, so he finally returns to Uruk, and we have this scene that reprises the very beginning of the myth where he's looking, he's surveying the city . And he seems far more aware now of what's at stake. He looks at the different elements that make up the city, civilization, human life and sees that it's more important than his own ego and individual success. And he is wise. He finally brings that wisdom back to Or uk and will ideally incorporate it into how he rules. And this kind of personal growth narrative has led some scholars to call it wisdom literature, but who knows exactly. Kind of has everything. Ah yeah. I would like to point out that he went to his adventure when he killed special forest guardian. His best friend died, killed Bull of Heaven, offended so many gods, troubled all these different people. And it feels like when he got city, he just said, You know what, guys, let's be peaceful. And the women of the city were like, This is what we said from day one. The women were like, we were always like, let's be peaceful. Yes. I do remember the end bit of the story was that the secrets that he learns is to build structures that stand for all time , have a lineage of offspring that carry on your bloodline and have great stories that are told forevermore? Yeah, sort of he writes , you know, his quests down on a think it's a lapis lazily tablet and he burs it somewhere in the wall and he says someone will find this someday and remember me and lo and behold here we are remembering Gilkamesh. Because those walls of Uruk Uruk? Yeah, Uruk yeah are still standing They are yeah and they're they're very they're like nine kilometers long and they're very thick and they're very real. Like I think an archaeologist estimate three hundred million bricks. Wow. In this thing. So he did it. Yeah. Eternal life. He nailed it. Did he build those walls before after the adventure because it's unlike before he's working the men and the bodies to the bone. He's gonna say yeah so once again has he learned? Yes, my lasting memory is this thing where I forced everyone into slave labour . We should talk about how the story of Gilgamesh epic Gilgamesh was rediscovered in modern times. This is how the ancient world understood it, this is how it was passed down through their generations. But I guess we then received it much later on. Could you talk us through the modern text history ? Yes, so the first Acadian text were found in eighteen forty nine by Austin Henry Laird in Nineveh in the Library of Usher Bonipal . And these were ones that were copied down by scribes , and obviously with the death of scribble training, no one copied them down anymore, so they just get buried. Once Caniform was deciphered, parts of it got translated and in the eighteen seventies a self taught working class Londoner called George Smith, who was studying clay tablets at the British Museum, he was the first to translate the epic into English producing a translation of this flood tablet tablet eleven. That was quite an exciting discovery at the time. And Mary Lane, George Smith, our working class self taught Londoner, he was so thrilled to have, you know, produced this translation. How did he celebrate ? Oh did he do it Gilgamesh style? Or go on a killing spree. Oh no, he didn't like have too much to drink, did he? He certainly let go of his inhibitions . Oh no, did he did he just like an Inki do and get naked and like run through Coven Garden? He literally did. He ran naked through the was it British Museum? That's right. Stripped off his clothes and ran screaming naked through Shoutio. I did it. I did it . Dad might be the one I'd have got right this whole time and it was a total stab in it. The nuance window . Time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Marianne and I sit silently to contemplate our mortality for two minutes while Dr. Moody regales us with something we need to know about the epic of Gilgamesh. My stopwatch is ready, so take it away, Dr. Moody. The epic of Gilgamesh has meant and will mean different things to me throughout my life. It's about power, grief, community, death, love . But right now as we watch one interconnected crisis after another unfold, I want to tell you what I think it could mean in this moment . Humbaba was the guardian of the Cedar Forest, appointed by the god Enlil to keep the ancient seed ars safe. He had the face of a raging lion, he breathed fire. His cry was a deluge. In ancient Mesopotamia people sometimes used sheep entrails to predict the future, and one omen says that intestines shaped like H umbaba's face foretell the arrival of a usurper king. Imagine the face of this monster like the coiled intestines of a dying animal, slippery, bloody, palpitating. I used to wonder why create such a terrifying creature to guard trees. Like many of you, I bear witness daily to the destruction of a once thriving world , to line the pockets of a handful of people with already full pockets. It has helped me understand the mythology of Humbaba . But the Gilgamesh who slayed Humbaba and chopped down trees as tall as the sky was not the same broken man who clawed his way to Utanapisti, the oldest man in the world. He was looking for the key to eternal life, but he found instead a lesson in how to live. I think the crux of Utana Pishti's message is this instead of trying to live impossibly long lives, let us do more with the short time that we have. For Gilgamesh, this means acting as a shepherd to the people in his care, and by extension the places they rely on. When he returns to Uruk and surveys the city he sees people's homes, the date orchards, the clay pits, and the temple which represent domestic life, agriculture, crafts, and religion. This is worth fighting for, he realizes. The survival of each successive generation confers immortality on the whole. Our well being is tied to the well being of those around us and to the places that sustain us, to the waters that give us life, to the trees that give us air, the land that Humbaba gave his life to guard. I think there is a timeless lesson in these twelve tablets and their unexpectedly flawed hero, selfish, cowardly, violent, vulnerable, relentless, and eventually enlightened. What are the chances that this story has survived from its earliest oral tellings to a fragmentary translation over four thousand years later? And what are the chances that it might contain just the call to survival, community and care that we need. Amazing, beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you. So all night . That's just a nice way to take a message while make it hopeful. I think that's what we need is hope. I think so too. I hope so in a way. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely need more of the humanity and less of the monsters. Well, thank you so much, Marie Laine. Thank you so much, Dr. Moody. And listener, if you want more ancient history with Dr. Moody, check out our episodes on the Babylonians and the one on the history of Cunea form, which people loved. People really loved that episode. It's one of our most popular ever. Absolutely amazing. It's lovely. For more epic myths, we've got one on King Arthur, of course, and for more Marielane we have the episode on Robert Bruce, not Robert The Bruce. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends. Subscribe to your Dead To Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes twenty eight days earlier than anywhere else. And yeah, I just like to say huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We have the magnificent doctor Moody Al Rash id from University of Oxford, thank you Moody. Thank you for having me. Always a pleasure. And in Comedy Corner we have the Marvelous Marie Laine Robertson. Thank you Marelaine. Cheers very much. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we delve into another dramatic historical epic. But for now I'm off to go and grab a mate to help me beat up a tree. Bye Do the wonder products that you see on your social media and supermarket shelves really deliver on their bold claims dehumidifiers standing discs. Nail polish from supplements claiming to boost your mind and body.