Strategic Retreat and Infinite Mindset

There's external risk here, there's real risk R? of getting in actual trouble What was so important that it was worth taking real risk. If you don't try, you'll never know. If you don't try, you'll never know. and I think that If I don't try, that would kill me And so in my mind, I kept thinking, as scared as I was, not just from like potential repercussions, but also the embarrassment. And I don't want to look back one day and say, wish I wish I tried Fear is the reason most of our dreams stay dreams. We're afraid we'll fail We're afraid we'll embarrass ourselves, or we're afraid we're just not ready thenen there's Nelly Atar. I heard her speak at Ted twenty twenty six and I knew I had to have her on the show. becausecause shes fearless because of what she does with her fear. Nelly is a psychologist turned extreme athlete and mountaineer She built Saudi Arabia's first dance studio, Move before women could even do that kind of thing publicly She's climbed Mount Everest And she's the first Arab to summit K two a mountain so dangerous to climb that one in four people who try N come home But here's the thing that inspires me Nelly has found a way to turn individual acts of accomplishment to act. of service She kept her dance studio open for the women who showed up The women who took the risk just to walk in the door And she climbs impossible mountains to show women that they can achieve anything they put their mind to even looks out for the Sherpas who hike with her. to make sure that they are safe and taken care of. There is so much we can all learn from how Nelly lives her life If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe This is a bit of optimism. Nelly, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast. S, thank you for me. When I saw your talk on the main headstage I was completely inspired by who you are, how you show up in the world And it's why I invited you on to talk I know you're in Dubai right now, but you live in Saudi Arabia, right I live between Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Can you remind me mainly because I forgot? No worries. The dat cllub that you started in Saudi. justust remind me how that came about because it is not something that most people would expect to happen in Saudi Arabia At least where I sit in the US This is about like thirteen years ago I started off my career as a psychologist I was born and raised in Saudi, left the country to complete my higher education And then I came back Thinking I am going to get a couple of years experience in psychology and then go do my PhD So I started off my career as a psychologist and when I came back, I realized the sports landscape still hasn't changed. acccess to sports was really, really difficult, especially for women And honestly, I just wanted to move. I wanted to move and I thought, you know, maybe I can start something, start someome sort of class to get people active and also stay active And it started with dance crumces I got certified and I started teaching from the hospital I was working at And that alone was a risk. That in itself was a risk. the wrist and I delivered my first set of classes from the hospital And it was received really positively. And so that's where it started. And then I carried on, eventually moved to different places Wherever I could enclosed neighborhoods, embassies. Why was it a risk? because organized sports for women was Not in the norms. I don't think it was even allowed Female gym licensing didn't exist So officially women didn't really participate in sports at the time And this was for patients or for hospital staff This is hospitals that Aazing And at the time, music was not allowed in public spaces either. So there was, you know both angles, I wasn't sure how it was going to be received. And I think it really, really impacted people. And so I carried on And, you know, like with every next step Another seate open. And so I moved on to friends, parents of friends. Friends of friends Eventually In twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen, I signed with Nike as their first trainer in the kingdom. And even then we were not sure how to announce it because, you know, we had to dance with the norms. We're not sure if it was allowed, it wasn't allowed And this is what inspired the space My stuff that had an empty warehouse in his office building that he wasn't using So was like, Natny, why don't you start teaching from this bace Gather your friends, and instead of moving all around the city You know, just have that one space. couple days later I shifted all my classes from that space. And initially it was free classes and it was a mixture of dance and fitness sessions And I was just testing the water to see like what is this going to look like? What is this going to be with no like really no plan of this becoming a dance studio Fast forward to about four or five months later Let's turn into Saudi Arabia's first on studio This is a And the risk that you took, how secretive did you have to be when you advertised this And you got people to come was it word of mouth? Could you be public about it? Good question because so it was mainly through word of mouth. So a lot of this was through friends and my nwork But I did create a public Instagram account for the Dance stududio called Move And That was not allowed. Even that was not allowed. Showcasing women training and showcasing women dancing was not allowed And there were a lot of instances during that period where women were posting about training and showcasing training that we get into trouble Really, I wasn't sure how this was going to be received. if I was going to get into trouble So I actually avoided telling people that this is my place. I didn't associate my name, my brand name with The D stududio. For the longest time, I don't want people knowing that I was running this space. And it was in an office building. so that was also You know notot allowed. likeike it was in an office building full of men. we would wait for the men to leave before we could sneak into move. But Simon it was just really like taking small risks here and there seeeeing what people were okay with And it was we were still respecting the norms. like we didn't do anything that was completely out of the ordinary. It was getting people to move and getting people to see that d. You weren't being flagrant about it. You were still being respectful. Like you said, the women weren't moving around the men. you waited for the men to leave work that day and then the women would come into the warehouse afterwards. So you still hard in the pun, but dancing around the norms Exactly, exactly. And that's I think that's how we got away with it And then imagine that it couldn't have been a better time That was the period that Saudi started to change. That was when the national transformation started to happen So female gym licensing was launched. Woman could now drive. that was the same year They launched the Saudi Ministry of spports So there was a whole transformation and a massive attention being paid to sports and them trying to get women integrated into the society and work and It was right around the time that we, you know, became a thing And so we went from being an underground community to then partnering with the government to launch national dance programs all across the country Is it still going No I ended up closing the studio So what? What was so important that it was worth I mean You were risking getting in trouble doing these things. What made it worth these risks? I mean, but you could just do word of mouth, you could just tell people, hey You know, when you're all alone at home You know Move. There are other ways to inspire and encourage people to move, but taking the risk to bring people together in common space to dads together, listen to music, even just starting in the hospital. Like what was so important to you As a psychologist that it was worth taking this risk to lead these dance classes in the hospital and then eventually in the warehouse Because if you don't try, you'll never know. If you don't try, you'll never know. And I think that If I don't try, that would kill me And so in my mind, I kept thinking as scared as I was, not just from like potential repercussions, but also the embarrassment Like Are people gonna like my concerts? Am I going even know how to teach dance? I'm not a professional dancer And mean, I made so many mistakes along the way But it was if I don't try, how will I know And I don't want to look back one day and say, I wish, I wish I tried And it's crazy because when you do try things start to up and that rewards me like that was the reward to try even more and try even more. Let's go out of Saudi Arabia, right? Someone here might have a dream of openinging a dance studio. and the fear of failure The fear of embarrassment, may hold them back. There's a lot of people with ambitions to try things that come up with reasons why they shouldn't do it Right And you're saying, but I had to try. I had to find out But now let's add in the Saudi Arabia components where there's actually real risk, not just the fear of embarrassment or the fear of failure, which are internalized thing. There's external risk here, there's real risk Right? of getting in actual trouble And so I appreciate the traditional you know, overcoming the entrepreneurial jitters. likeike I just had to find out. It was worse not to find out. I get that But my question is is what was so important that it was worth taking real risk Because most entrepreneurs don't have real risk associated with starting their business I mean, they may lose some money, but if they're responsible, they're not going to bankrupt themselves, you know Great question. So that would change along the way, but I think initially, I was always afraid of leading a life that was average or waring And I spent most of my life growing up in Sudi where we didn't have access to sports. We don't really have access to movement And so coming back and working in Saudi, I mean, of course, I was really grateful. There were many great things that Saudi offers But I did feel like life was very monotonous And I was still, you know, in my early twenties And I love dance and I just I love being active So this idea came about And I thought, okay, maybe I can combine dance with teaching people after working hours and that gives me something to do So that was the initial I think driving force And then when I've taught my first set of classes which by the way were horrible. I made so many mistakes, forgot through rout tes But even with that, I saw what people left with. They were so excited. It was different. They've never done something like this And so then that became anotherother driving force, the impact that that started to create for a woman So the naivete of the first class then seeing the impact that I've had on people's lives became more important than the risk associated Is that right Yes So it's I mean, this is the core of what it means to do anything with purpose, right? whatever kind of thing we do in our lives and the impact it has on other people's lives and the reward we get from seeing the impact we have in people's lives becomes more important becomes more of the driving force than any risks associated with not doing it or the risks associating of doing, I should say. That makes sense now. It's not like you sat down and sort of calculated the risk. It's that you did something very small. You saw the impact and you said, I want more of this. Is that what I'm hearing Exactly. And I think this is what got me as well So cll mountain Not really thinking of all the risks And the what if? and and and There was a driving force and I just started to like dabble with that idea And I must say It's also the people that I are surrounded by If my family didn't push me as well My family believed in this and they pushed me into doing it and taking the risk If they didn't, I don't know if I would have started. But I did have that support system And so it was kind of like an emotional and mental buffer. I had people to talk to about this Especially when it was embarring, especially when it didn't go as planned. And then my community started to become that buffer for me. You know, and It's really that support system that help me take that extra step alwaysways I think this is such a great point and so underappreciated, which is there's no such thing as the self made dot dot dot. You know, the self made millionaire, the self made business owner. This idea of being self made is complete nonsense And though you get the credit because you're the front person and you were the actual person who stuck your neck out, at the end of the day, you set it, which is if you didn't have the support The love of at least one person. in your case, you were lucky to have more from your family who have your back and say, no matter what we're there with you, we got you. I think people underappreciate that the courage to do these difficult things is And maybe I was wrong before Maybe it's not just tasting the purpose, tasting the impact. But it's as important, if not more important than you also have the support structure of loving friends and family who held space for you and encouraged you. and you knew that if you failed, you would still have love in your life and support in your life It sort of derisks when you have love and support I think that's is so underappreciated. You know, the importance of community and friends and loving family when we take these kinds of big steps. And speaking of big steps, you climbed Everest Yes And this I think I think people who climb Everest, and this is where I need you to dispel the myth I think it's a very, very, very selfish pursuit There is no social benefit Maybe you're raising money for charity. you know, some people do that, I guess spend hundreds of thousands of dollars very often. The risk to your life is extremely high. And very often these people have families you know, when they take these risks Their families don't want them to do it very often, but they do because s I have to prove that to myself that I can do it and Sure get it. I understand all of that narrative But I just find the idea of needing to do something that dangerous just for self glory, why did you climb a breist Re interest in the question N not sure what to say. I wantanna know the drive I mean, was it for you? Was it for other people? it's a cynical setup, but a genuine question. someomebody who undertakes that extxtremely difficult thing that has extreme danger the question is For what purpose? Where were you when you said ' about to climbvere Okay. I remember exactly where I was I was sitting and having dinner with a friend in my favorite restaurant at the time And he's a friend that I met through one of the climes, one of the climbs that I was that I led. I organized trips every now and then And we ended up planning a lot together in the Alps in Uganda, all across the world So three years into our friendship we're sitting, and he was like, Nelly, we need to do something bigger next year And this was three months after we came back from climbing the highest peak in South America, Akinkkabo And I'm like, okay, what's next? And here's a glitz to Evest And I was thinking, what, are you out of your minds? I have no interest in climbing Everest One two, I don't think we're ready. I haven't gone beyond six thousand meters. and this is just next year. likeike we're talking about next year. like no, it's insane. How many meters is Everest just for comparison eight thousand eight hundred and forty eight meters. Okay the highest point in the world. twenty nine thousand somed somed feet. I just thought like what an absurd idea. Yeah, I w to do something big But no, like climbing vers is just absurd I go back home that night And I couldn't sleep Simon. I was like this in bed. And then that's when I knew that, you know what Maybe it's not a bad idea So I got up the second day and I went and asked my mom, Mom, what do you think Would you be okay with this? And Simon, this comes after four years of climbing a lot, doing a lot of extreme sports So after thatance, I got into long distance running, uutra running, triathlons and climbing And so this idea didn't just come from nowhere And my mom lik the idea. she was like, why not Yeah, I believe you can do it and that was it I don't think she realized what Eveis was. Bess her But then that's all I needed to hear And so then I told my friend, okay, let's look into it And that's when we decided to do Everest. That was may twenty eighteen And then april twenty nineteen We were, you know in the poal starting off our journey on Everest. And did you succeed after your first attempt? Yeah, Hamilan, we succeeded Simon Eers isn't what's, you know my climbing experience. Everest is definitely not onene of the harder mountains or in terms of climbing. Yeah Evers kind of showed me that, you know, if you train properly, even from a landscape like Saudi At the time we still couldn't drive by the way. like at the time I think this is when they introduced that woman could start driving, but I didn't have a license and the policy was changing So we still couldn't really, really drive and There were a lot of challenges when it came to training for Everest from Saudi, but that's why I was so interested. you're training for a subzero. mountain climb in desert conditions Yes, exactly. In extreme desert conditions. Yes, it goes up to like forty five degrees Celsius And that's what I found so interesting. And that's what got me into, I think, extreme sports, like from dancing to running to all these things. How far can I take it? How far can I push my body? How can I train for these things from Saudi? That process for me was the most interesting process can I train and simulate? conditions, this one when I'm not an athlete I'm trying to be an athlete and two from an environment like this. And so Then I thought, you know what? Like, okay, I've done these other mountains, but Everest. This altitude, what will it take to be okay on this altitude? in this extreme environment And so I hired a coach from the US and it was really Interesting process, trying to simoth the climbing Everest. I'd spend four or five hours on a stair master machine. We're five hours on the ster masair. O a stairmaster machine. attached to things, resistant, really trying to mimic different movements I would spend hours and hours in the gym like sometimes I would even close the gym and leave the key with me I think because it was just insane how many hours I'd spend in the gym from like morning to night And I would go to the desert I'd have friends take me to the desert and then I'd spend hours like running up and down a little hill, just trying to see if, you know, I can get like five hundred or six hundred meters elevation gain. And I think that's what was my why. B the way I want to inspire women in my community. I want to show them You know, we belong there too So we can make in these spaces too And sports is for everyone. It's not just dance and it's not just walking, casual walking. We belong in the space of extreme sports And anything's possible. likeike I was doing this at twenty nine Again, like with minimal experience in this kind of environment I think that was my line purpose of doing it was much like the dance, was much like all the other things which just to prove that we can be there and we should be there. Was that a driving force from the get go? Yes, that was a driving force through all my climbs. After Everest Simon, I did K two, which I think was much more difficult and demanding And then I went on to doing the five highest peaks in the world. And it's always what drives me, it's how much further can I push it How much further can How much further can we push it But is it a selfish pursuit? Yes like. Everest. And I think a lot of these crimes are selfish pursuits It is not a very sustainable sport, unfortunately For every person that's there, there's a whole team, there's You know, shir bz. And If you want to do this att least for the sake of your team and the people that you're climbing with, you have to go ready. You have to go prepared. You know, donon't go depending on people, donon't go doing the bare minimal Because that's when you put your life and the life of others at risk. And you know, try to go as prepared as you can because then instead of Burdening other people You might help other people. You could be supporting other people and helping other people. And when I did advers in K two, I'm like, I don't want to continue being part of the problem on If I want to continue doing this, I want to be part of the solution So when I did lotSe and a few of the other peaks, I led a cleanup initiative in partnership with a brand here, whereby we collected a thousand kilograms of waste, high altitude waste. And we recycled a lot of the waste and it was a full circle initiative where we recruited locals, trained them on leaving no trace because they're the ones who are on the forefront So a lot of them need that kind of training And then we cleaned up A lot of the waste and then recycled it. But honestly, that was a drop in the ocean. one thousand kilograms Simon up there. W a job than an option? Well, hopefully, others will continue. H have to say, Nelly, what I find so inspiring about you. is not that you started the dance classes in a place that there weren't dance classes and not that you climbed you know, Everest or K two or the other peaks. Those things were amazing accomplishments and I pay you credit for those astonishing feats The thing that I find really inspiring about you is that you do these things with the sense of service I mean, you said the reason to prepare is not so you can be a badass You know The reason to prepare is to take the burden off of those who are there to support you You know, the reason to work hard is for the benefit of others and that even though of course there are benefits to you, and of course, it makes your climb less dangerous. O of course, of course, of course It's very rare And I don't know if you realize this. It's very rare when you hear people talk about the importance of hard work importance of preparation that they ever ever say that they do it to benefit those who support them. I'm in awe of what you've accomplished keep doing more Like right when somebody thinks you've done the thing, you do something else But this idea that you work hard for others is the thing that I think makes you who you are If you're not the first person representing Saudi, the clime or the first woman representing Saudi to claim Everest You know, you're not the first Lebanese to climb ever like but you are probably the first who worked as hard to do it for others when you did it Yeah, I'm floored to be honest Thank you. It's the reason I was excited to talk to you more. You know, we met briefly Ted and and like I was I've been very, very excited to talk to you again And I didn't realize this component until talking to you now to be honest Thank you so much. Hearing this from you, Simon is u Honestly Such an honor. Really? And I don't think I ever saw it that way. I think it's just If you're going to do this You know, like Make the process enjoyable for everyone Not just for you for everyone. And I want to underscore that there's a nuance here that I don't want it to get lost which is this is not inspiring others to follow what you did. You know, you hear Olympic athletes. I did it to inspire the children. It's like, well Maybe that's kind of happened after the fact it's kind of a lucky strike extra. And even some of the things that you said, you, I wanted to prove that we could be here, which is true. You may inspire girls and women to participate in difficult things or recognize that there's somebody who looks like them who could accomplish these things. And those things are all true type of service that we're talking about is much closer to home We're not talking about service to imaginary people or people who you'll never know their names or faces. We're talking about service to people who you will meet, shake their hands, say thank you That's what I'm talking about. When I'm talking about service, I'm talking about to people who you will actually be around kind of service I think is a much more honest kind of service, a much more authentic kind of service, and to work hard for those people, I think is genuine and very often forgotten It's the least thing that we can do. It's the least thing that one should do. L these people are putting their lives on the line to make this possible for us. It's the least thing that we can do So go prepared and make their jobs easier It's the least thing we can do And then also why you're there, if you can pay or if you can get sponsorship To climb these mountains? Aount for them. account for the porters. Make sure that you have an amount accounted for them We wouldn't be able to do these things if it weren't for these people Andain, Nelly, it's obvious to you and this is what makes you remarkable. Right? This is not obvious to others And yours is an extreme example that you would say that, you know, because other people would say paid, that's their job Right? Now let's take it back Literally a few thousand meters. Let's come down in altitude You know, when you go buy a cup of coffee, Like why can't we show up in a restaurant or a coffee shop with the attitude that what can I do to make their job a little easier? To make their job a little better? I could say hello. I could say thank you. I could say please. I could ask them their name so that they see that there's somebody who recognizes them as a human being. As opposed to that's their job, G me my coffee and to go through life with this point of view that no matter what I do, no matter where I go How do I make somebody else's job a little easier or a little more fun? This is what it means to live a purpose driven life. Not always some big, noble cause or pursuit. sometometimes it's very small and very daily and the satisfaction and the joy of seeing people light up just simply because you took care of somebody. And you know what it's like people who very often are ignored or forgotten They come up to you and they say thank you to you. they don't say thank you to others You know that Yes, I know that Simon when I feel like they smile and they're happy I know that T to be seen, they need to be valued and they're not seen or valued enough and you can't just Take it for granted all that they're getting paid, how much how much are they getting paid What's ten dollars? let's say, ten dollars for you versus them. What's one hundred dollars for you versus them If that can change their life You know, think about that. like if that is something that you can sacrifice that might change someone's life. or months or Even day, then it's worth it, It's worth it And we have that control. People forget that we have that control giving ten dollars when you can or giving one hundred dollars or asking somebody's name or saying, please, saying thank you, or even saying to somebody, my job is to make your job easier. Like literally just saying it to somebody Make somebody feel seen and heard and recognize that they matter in the world. And these things are sometimes as if not more important then giving a tip, giving the big tip. I mean, those things are important as well, But the validation of the fact that they exist in the world A hundred percent, you know what Simon actually like it will come back to you. This comes back to you. God forbid anything happens to you up there. Godought for a bit. You know people on the mountain And I started to realize this with time. L I'm very, very extroverted. I talk to everyone. I dance with everyone But I realized that sometimes like in really hostile environments as we're moving up to camp three or camp four This has happened multiple times where I'm just You know suffering. I'm an Absolutely suuffer mode And you know, things could be going wrong. And then someone says, Hey, Nandy, how are you nice to see you again? That could change my entire mood. and then anything that goes wrong if you know people up there Like it could come back to you in one way or another Apart from that goingo back to making them feel seen and valued, it could be as simple as eating with them. The porters, for example, have their own lin intxt, so we don't really interact with them And I think that's wrong. We're a team for two months up there. We're a team for five weeks And they actually really like it. They really appreciate it when you go and sit with them and you listen to their music, you try to learn their language. And it's those little things that yeah really, really matter And as you see like it could matter more than the victor of kindness, right? It's the pract of kindness. It reminds me because very often people are kind when they want something All of a sudden they're super charming and friendly and want to know your name. And you know they've been not that nice for a while or they've and then you're just waiting like where's the ask Like I'm just waiting for the ask, right That's very common that people are nice when they need something And the idea of the practice of kindness Right? It just reminds me when I was very young. Thank goodness, my parents rais us to treat everybody well, whether somebody's the janitor or the CEO, you treat them well. You treat them the same, right? And so that's just how we were raised as kids. And I remember when I was entry level in my job, I worked at an ad agency And one of the responsibilities of the entry level kid was to make sure that the packages get sent to the client. you know? that's That was my job, right? Sometimes when I would go down to the mail room drop something off or pick something up. If we had like extra cookies left over from a meeting that I knew they were just gonna throw in the garbage, I'd take them down to the mail room Or if somebody sent us t shirts that nobody wanted, you know or they picked at it and got their sizes alady or whatever it was, you know, I would take down whatever we had left. And I would always just remember that they exist down in the basement, right I didn't want anything. It's just because they were nice guys and they were always forgotten. And so you know, I would bring stuff from upstairs down to the basement sometimes And I remember there was this one time where FedEx closed at seven PM I was running late And I had to get this out to the client. I ran down to the mailroom and I didn't even have it in the box. I had like a pile of stuff It was like six fifty nine and There's no way it should make it, right? And I remember running into the mailroom and like guysys, am I going to miss the Fedx and they're like, Simon we got you don't worry you're going to make you're going to make it. donon't worry. And there's this other entry level junior kid who who read them like you'd expect who comes in with his package fully packed and he goes, seend this And they sayertain him sorry man is closed. Sorry, man it's clos I'm standing there with my pile of stuff and he's standing there with his package. And it was in that moment I recognized the value of just treating people nice. And it was not because that's what I wanted, but I recognized that these boomerangs sometimes come back Aolutely And the idea of showing up every every day to be a kind person because it's just good to be a kind person is the correct investment is the way that you reap the benefits, but only giving when you want is again, it's simply selfishness. It's not kind at all And you know what? onn that note, Simon, actually the days that I feel Like I Ted This and eggs dry and the days that I feel like, I don't know where I'm going with my life And I feel stuck The best thing to do is to go and interact with someone and helpel someone in one way or another and that help could be It could be anything, it could be anything. That's what's amazing about life. I feel like life will present you with so many opportunities. But be open to these opportunities And when you do positively interact with people and help them somehow or some wayay in their day It just does so much for you when you feel that way. Like sometimes honestly, like that pours so much into my cup. During the times that I feel really down and I feel like I don't know why and I feel so lost Just going back to that really, really helps me What's next for you? What's your next adventure? What's your next goal? What I mean, you always seem to have something on the horizon So honestly, this year, I really want to focus on helping people climb their mountain I want to help People embark on big physical challenges because that's changed my life And so I'm spending a bit more time in the region really trying to enable people to embark on big physical challenges, whether that's through leading trips You're coaching through activations And in terms of big mountains, of course there's always some big mountains in the horizon But it depends on sponsorship. it depends on a bunch of other factors For the next few months There is no big mountain plann, but hopefully in the next six months I'll be going back to Nepal I've seen videos of you on your Instagram of you leading hikes in the desert with folks. They look amazing I actually want to come on one one day. They look so fun and you're taking people of all kinds of physical fitness levels and you're pushing them and challengge them and some of the hikes you're doing. I mean, those are difficult, serious hikes you're doing out in the mountains. Tell me a story of somebody who who showed up on one of your hikes and what you learn from them. H Question She I think there's so many stories like that I'll choose my friends story There's a friend of mine from high school who's gone through a lot of struggles in her life. She's been through a lot of ups and downs She also went to rehab multiple times. She changed jobs multiple times. And I feel like There's no consistency in her life And she has some major highs in those And signing up to one of these trips that I was leading, I wasn't sure how she's going to show up if she's going to show up. She might sign up and not show up She doess And she completed every single challenge that we did. It was a trip to Bhutan where we basically had a different adventure every single day. There was cycling one day, there was rafting. hiking a big mountain. And she managed to get through the whole process. And I think it really did something for her Son and I think it really changed something in her And during that trip, I could see it like I could see day by day she was going through L an internal struggle And just trying to let go and trying to accept that this is her life and she really wants to, you know, start a new chapter But I think that that showed her what she's capable of. It reminded her that she's a lot stronger, a lot more resourceful And you know, maybe to sometimes get yourself out of this like negative loop, you need to do something completely different. You need to test yourself maybe physically And so the next trip she came on A couple months later, she came on another trip where she actually did a much bigger hike. And then on that trip again, she was really doubtful and she was like, I can't do this. I'm not fit. I haven't been consistent on the summit she was so happy. She was one of the first few people to make it up on the summit And this was in Yemen and in an island called Sokacha, and it's the second highest peak in Soukacha And she just like she did that with fine colors And it's changed something in her. And now she's training more consistently. I think self care. is a lot higher in terms of her priorities But I think she's seen what she's capable at That was the most important thing for her. And that inspired me. like that reminded me of why I started. why I did all these things off all the amazing things that you've accomplished and the amazing feat that you've overcome Is there one that stands out as the proudest? Is there one that All the things you did in your life were like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive. I mean, move is one, move is that I'm so proud of because of what it did for people and what it did to people And then K two, climbing K two What was it about K two that stands out above All of the other things you've done in your life I lost my father a year before climbing K two and Simon, my dad was My everything He was my best friend, my biggest supporter since I was a kid. He was on that encouraged me to be authentic, to be different, and that it was okay to be different, that it was okay to not be understood And my dad supported me through all my ups and downs in life. And he took me on my first hike when I was seventeen When I graduated from school, he took me to Kenya And that is basically, I think what planted the seed of adventure within me And when I was there on Mount Kenyon with my dad, I thought to myself, I want to do this when I'm older So through all these claims My dnt was ecstatic like I can't believe my daughter is doing this. My daughter, Nanny is doing this and Luckily he was there to witness Everest And I think him witnessing Everest was my Everest His joy was my avst A year later, he passed away during COVID and It just shook my entire world Cose my business? few months before my dad passed away and I thought that would be the hardest thing becausecause of COVID And then I lose my dads And that just stripped me off of everything And I don't know how I can go through life again And then the idea of K two came about So K two was much more than a clime for me. It was much, much, much more than a clim for me It was something that demanded so much in terms of coming out of my shell in a very, very dark period of my life Is K two technically more difficult than Everest? Ku is significantly more difficult and technically more demanding than ever Did you do it for your dad? I think I did it with what my dad left me with. And his favorite quote was Now the only those who risk going far can find out how far they can go And so that's what took me to K two. And I wanted to climb to life again. I wanted to climb to life again, rememember what I was capable of. And because I was not fixated on any outcome, I was not fixated on anything. I just wanted life to feel okay again I wanted some colors to come back into my life That's what helped me let go of everything like the stress and the worry of K two I just thought, okay, a big mountain, I have to train differently for this climb. This is a lot more dangerous than evervest Just for some perspective, Simon, one out of four don't come back from that mountain They die. Yeah, they die. K two is extremely dangerous. twentyenty five percent of people who attempt K two don't make die. Forget about not make the peak Yes, twenty five percent of. Wow But then I was thinking There's Seventy five percent that comebine And if three hundred and fifty people climbed K two before me, then why can't I I'll do what they did when I'll try to do it better. Only two hundred and fifty people have climbed it The year I climbed it, only three hundred and fifty people had climbed it then I think now there's like maybe a little over five hundred You made it up the first try? I made it up the first try and I became the first Arab to sumic Kitu What happens if you don't make it? Like what happens if you get to the point of? Because I think people forget that making to the peak of a mountain is only halfway You know, and I'm told that more people die on the way down because they either stay up too long, they get summit fever, they should have turned around. they didn't You know, all of these factors and they usually down the way down, not the way up I've been told by professional climbers that you can tell the difference between the professionals and the amateurs becausecause the professionals know, you know what? todayoday is not the day and you go back down The amateurs going to the summit and get summit fever, even if the conditions are not right When if you had to turn around? and I don't mean on a mountain, although that's fine too. But like when you set out to do a project whether it was a move project or a hike project or a mountain climb project or a business project, you know, tell me a time where you couldn't summit metaphorically and you had to make the choice to turn around I mean, there are many mountains, including an eight thousand meter peak An Aurnna where we had to turn around and move my down studio, although it was a big success, we closed and to shut down the business I think there comes a point where Retreat will save you so much more in the future and it's not giving them It's knowing when to retreat And to say, okay, this is done, this chapter is closed Or you know what I'm going to turn back because I want to continue in this sport If I don't turn back, I may not be able to continue in the sport because I might lose fingers, toose I may lose my lgh You want to think of the bigger picture and take yourself out of this moment And I think experience, life teaches you this when it's Giving up And on it's a retreat strategic retreat I think that's a brilliant in perspective. The United States Marine Corps calls it advancing in the opposite direction Oh, I love that. I love what But the idea of that I'm retreating from this goal, I'm retreating from this climb so that I can do it again rather than I am quitting, I failed, I didn't make it becausecause those that mindset is one of completion, right? It sounds final point the word retreat Um connotations, the feeling is that so that I can again Exactly. You retreated from your business rather than close your business, shut your business, business failed. You retreated from it, which I find Quite clever, actually Exactly, Simon. I think this is what helped me make peace with closing the studio. We dragged it out for a little while. And then we started to phase it out And then I told myself that this is a retreat. I'm going to close the business But who knows I could re open in the future on better terms? Doesn't have to be a permanent ending and maybe I may not and I might start something else This will save the energy for something bigger and something better When it's been dragging for too long You know, this is when I felt like it just became so taxing on so many levels and I just yeah, I felt like if I shut this down, that will save my energy to build something else in the future and potentially rebuild this on better terms in a better way You naturally embody an infinite mindset and you know one of the core tenets of an infinite mindset is that everything that happens in your life is part of a continuum. It's not the thing. You know, Oh I h that. There's an old Chinese proverb, It's told many ways, this is the way I know it that captures this idea, right? There's a young man born with the remarkable ability for horse riding and everyone in the village says, you're so lucky. And the monk says, we'll see And then he falls off his horse and breaks his leg and his riding career is over. And everyone in the village says, you're so unlucky. And the monk says, we'll see. And then war breaks out and all the men are sent to battle, but he can't c because of his busted leg. And everybody in the village says you're so lucky. And the monk says, we'll see you know, Good news, bad news, who knows The point is that all of these events that happen in our lives are not the start of something nor are they the end of something. They're simply moments on a continuum and you seem to naturally embody that understanding. that nothing that's happening in your life is failure, it's retreat. You know, even your successes aren't final. Your successes are simply steps to the next step You know, proof that you can do something and what else can I accomplish? And there's this magical growth that happens to you with each of your accomplishments and you don't have a bravado about you, which I respect. The other people who walk around with these badges You know, of accomplishment It becomes their identity I am You know, an Everest summiter I am this I am an entrepreneur. I am a millionaire, right? They use a being verb for a goal And you haven't said that at all You know, you talk about these things you've done or the things you've tried or these things you've accomplished. and you have a very balanced sense of identity, which is service versus what your accomplishments are. and you do not conflate the two And I think one of the challenges a lot of people have in the world is they define themselves by their title or their accomplishments. Just look at people's bios, The first line, CEO of Oscar winning dot dot dot. So you accomplish yourself by a title that you have that you don't own that somebody else can take away from you or that you'll you know, age out of at some point or something that you accomplished twenty years ago These aren't identities. They're simply accomplishments. Absolutely And you embody this so perfectly, like your identity is not flated with ese things that you've done and by the way, any one of these things could become your identity or are the identities of other people who do similar things Where did you learn that? Like how do you define yourself? L Who are you If you're not an Everest climber, a K two climber, if you're not an entrepreneur, if you're not a Nike athlete, like, who are you You know, I was worried you'd ask me that question because I never know how to answer I'm someone that Absolutely wants to make the best hues of this life that I have. and make a great impact while I'm still around. I think that's where I' Can I make an observation I think you are You are become your father You exist. so that you can show others that if they can push their boundaries, they'll find out where their boundaries are It's not that you started move The women who we forget that the women who came to dance took a risk too. You know and that You created a safe space and an encouraging environment other people to take the risks than they probably wouldn't have taken without you. You became your family to these women You became your father to your friend who came to Bhutan and ofra. You became your father to the porters on Everest. You know, a kind spirit who wants to create a safe space to show others what they're capable of Iine like I don't think I' ever forget this Thank you so much. actuallyctually, thank you so so much. I needed to hear this today. I'm a fan, Nelly big fan and a big fan Not of your accomplishments, but of who you are And I think I learn from you about how to go through the world. And it's why I wanted you on this podcast. I can have a million mountain climbers on the podcast You know I could have people in Saudi did things the first woman to drive the car. and they're all amazing things and they're all remarkable in their own way But the reason I was excited to have you and to talk to you This It's the manner in which you choose to live your life in service to others. I find it absolutely inspiring Thank you so much. I mean, you do the same Simon. There's only one person that I asked. You guys know Simon all across the Middle East. Everyone knows who Simon Sene is And you've impacted so many lives all across the world And along my chapter, I remember when I was transitioning from being a psychologist to working full time in sports I signed up to your chor And I bought you a book because I wanted to find my why and I really wanted to understand my purpose. And so you have been instrumental in my journey Years back and I never thought I'd be here., thank you, Nelly Thank you. Simon Well, we should probably stop now before we both start crying The team has given me some questions I'm supposed to ask you. What do you think the difference is between fear that is protecting you and fear that is holding you back Russian fear that is protecting you is real fear Real fear is then you could lose your life That's the kind of fear that protects you And it's telling you, be careful. Maybe do the same, but just be extra aware and extra careful No room for complacency And the other fear that's holding you back is the fear of stepping out of your comfort zone, you know you need to do the thing. There's no real threat here in life. or safety or security It's just fear of discomfort feear of being embarrassed, fear of making a mistake fear of actually rising to another level There's going to be discomfort there. And I think that is sometimes mistaken with Far. likeike the feelings of like discomfort And that's when, you know, you should go for it, regardless, just go for it. And then also go for it here But just be very careful You say you move for a living. What do you feel movement does for the mind? most underestimate Movement is medicine Movement is medicine. We are designed to move And I think a lot of the problems that we have today is because we sit. We spend so much time sitting behind screens We are designed to move. We're designed to be moving around all day, not sitting all day and then going for an hour of crossfit for an hour of high intensity training You're supposed to be moving throughout the day Using your fingers, using your legs, using your core You know, we have a body for a reason And I think because we've eliminated that from our life, this is why we have so many problems The mind and body are one It's not two separate parts. it's one And this is what I've learned through training and years of extreme sports. It's actually my mind that gets me to do these things, not my body. My body helps, but it's my mind You feed your mind, you help your mind, you support your mind When you take care of your body Lilly, thank you so much. I hope I get to see you in person soon and maybe come with you one day. please when you come to Dubai, you come to the region, you let me know and I'll take you on it. afra hi I can't wait As always, thanks for listening And if you liked this episode, please do remember to subscribe to a bit of optimism wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday