Closing Thoughts on Cardamom Buns

My best friend and my wife if they would have If they would have gone on one of like the matchmaking websites or something, if they would have put themselves through an algorithm and said Find me a person They would have never found me Like never in a million years would an algorithm have said this lunatic, he's the guy for you. never I was fortunate in the way that I stumble upon people early on in my life that was very different for me. And I found out very quickly that that was a good thing for me. That was Like I needed people who were notot like me. so that I could look at their best qualities and strive for them. If you're an avid listener of this podcast, you may know something about me that I'm not a reader I've actually written more books than I've read But this conversation with Fredrick Bachman makes me want to read. The way he thinks, the way he sees the world, the way he sees humans and friendships and people, it inspired me I actually bought two of his novels, Anxious People and a man called Ovee which was later made into a movie, a man called Otto, starring Tom Hanks We live in a world where loneliness is an epidemic And Frederick reminds us that meaningful relationships are built with intention They take showing up Aain and again and again, even when it's inconvenient His new book, My friendriends, drives that point home. people who have deep, meaningful connections in the world They're not lucky. do the work And that work worth it I wanted to begin this episode talking about Frederick's fantastic viral speech that he gave about creative anxiety and procrastination at Simon and Schuster's Centennial He is, of course humble about the video's success But it's easy to see why his words connected with so many people Brilliant hilarious and painfully relatable for introverts like me And that is a perfect description for the conversation that follows This is a bit of optimism Oh, and Pes, if you ever go to Stockholm, Frederick and I reveal who has the best cardamom buns in the world This episode is brought to you by Porse. and like all great brands with great products, it's the people behind the products that make them so spectacular. You already know this irrespective of whether people are fans of your books or not The little video you did at the publishing thing U viral made you a bit of an internet sensation. They are fueled by pure panic. My wife has this thing where she doesn't give me all of the information which she finds to be very effective, so she didn't I thought my publisher was celebrating their hundred years, Simon a Schuster They only invited me because they needed like a Scandinavian Like they needed to show we have authors from all over the world. And at some point someone in a meeting was like, do we have anyone from Scandinavia? And they were like, Yeahah, I think we have a guy My wife also explain to me like, o they're going to have a thing and you know, and I thought based on what she told me that I was going to give a speech at a dinner And then I arrived and it was at a theater in the presence of a lot of a lot of writers and a lot of people that I really, really admire and really look up to and I had prepared speech full of stupid jokes I don't know how to write a speech Good evening. My name is Friidrich Bachman. I am here tonight because my agent said that this would be good for my career She said, I need to learn how to speak in front of people It will be fun, she said So I told her that I write books. I spend eight hours every day locked inside a room with people I have made up If I was comfortable talking to real people, I would have a real job But my agent said, you know, just go up there and talk about the life of a writer I said, all right Being a writer is the best way I know how to get paid for being insane It was it was pure panic what you saw on the video that was just me panicking and thinking this is going to be the end of my time at this very nice publishing house Well, one the good news is they hire you for being a writer, not a speechgiver And the better news is you nail Inherently, the audience is always rooting for who's ever on the stage. I've found and where things are best and we M enjoy will be here is that somebody is showing who they truly are, which is if they're nervous, or if they speak slowly, as long as that's who they are. I think people fall in love I am here tonight with all of my anxiety. Because I know that in this room there might be someone who is dreaming about writing a book dreaming of becoming an author So I'm here to tell you that I am obviously an idiot I have no idea what I'm doing, but I became an author anyway. So you can too And I hope that one day I will be able to tell my agent that the reason that my next book is not finished yet is because I was busy reading yours. Thank you very much I think that's what happened which is we fell in love with somebody who was very honest about how you were actually feeling in a day and age where we filter everything and everything's performing. I'm glad if it's felt that way. Um There was a lot of people who told me afterwards like it was so good because you know, it wasn't perfect, it wasn't like practiced and I'm like Well I tried It wasn't my intention not it was my intention for it to be good. You know, you walk up on stage and I had a piece of paper with the speech written down And they said, No no, we can put that on the teleprompter And I was like absolutely not. I'm holding on to the paper that like this is like my life raft on open sea. I'm holding on to this, like I'm holding on to that. edge of a mountain. it went alright, but it was it was there was a lot of panic involved This is also a lot of panic involved and the with talked about that earlier, but the reason that I The reason that I said yes to this is, I was going to explain to my children what I was going to do today And I said, Well, I've got to be in this podcast and what kind of podcast there is and this This incredibly intelligent man who has written these books on leadership and he invites these incredibly smart people to his podcast and they talk about, you know profound things and They talk about like research and science and you know, the world and the society and you could see my kids looking at me like, when are we going to get to the part of why you're here? Why are you going to be on it? But the reason that I couldn't say no was that my best friend, we've known each other since we were teenagers of thirty plus years. is a great extro, you know, always was always a good leader, always one of those guys that you followed everywhere because he just had that Chisman And he when he was ninetineeen, he started working as a forklift driver at a warehouse fruit and vegetables And and then over the course of twenty five years, he's worked his way out. And now he's the head of HR U for the company of nine hundred people He talks about you know, your books and your writing and how it's affected his view on leadership, how it's affected his view on to be of service to others. L he talks a lot about he talks a lot about how he learned that leadership, it's not about the position, it's about the responsibility and responsibility to others and being of service to others. we talk about it A lot Um So I couldn't like there was no way that he would forgive me if I said no to this. That's very kind, thank you. What I'm taking away from that story which is so beautiful is how proud you are of him You're glowing. As you talk about it and as I've been looking at friendship and trying to understand friendship There's this very interesting observation We all, I hope, have at least one but a few a group of people we can turn to in dark tides when we're at our worst, when we're struggling, we can go to these people and say, I just need to vent, I need your help doing well. you know, I I hope that everybody has that the front. What I found fascinating is that It's a smaller group of friends that we can call to brag. that we can call to say, I did something great. Something great happened to me. My book hit the best sello list. I'm so proud of myself And there's no jealousy on the other side and there's no envy. And what I find so fascinating is the number of people that we can brag to is smaller than the number of people we can go to in hard times And so this says a lot, I think about the quality of your friendrenthip. You said he's such a close friend, you've been friend since you were teenagers You were talking about his accomplishments as if they're your own. Has it always been like that or have you ever had times and you're in that friendship where You were jealous or something he did highlighted an insecurity in you. No, I think it's always been that we were really proud of each other. I think it's always was always that we We rooted so strongly for each other. He's always been insanely proud of me like for whatever I accomplished. and I but I think I really, really think that I He was the person who taught me how to be that it was important to be happy for others. L that that was a genuine part of the friendship to be to have that to be able to be genuinely happy for each other. It's funny that you say that because I have that with him that I call him sometimes and I say, I can't say I can't say this to anyone else because I'm gonna sound like a douchebag. I'm gonna sound really full of myself But this thing happened and I'm super proud of it. And we also have this, he can call me once in a while and he'll say You know, thing happened, I'm really, you know, I'm upset with this person. I just need to vent. Is that okay And then he just goes off. And then at the end of it it's like, I know I'm like exaggerating, I'm overreacting. I know that, but I have to like Sometimes you need to get it out. You know like edit yourself and like Yeah, this is not how I'm going to say it to them, but I needed to say it to you first. I think you've just summed up Pble with social media which is Our initial reaction, which is not the best reaction, it's the benting reaction. It's not the way we actually want to say something to somebody. It's not constructive, but it is necessary for us to get it all out in the most exaggerated form so that we can be Pal areirrational again I think a lot of people are using social media, the comments section as that outlet not not the friend If you're married and you're upset, you know, you have an argument with your wife and you go to your friends and you say, you know, I just you know, It's this and this and this and this and this and, you know, we had this argument she didn't listen and whatever it is Your friends will tell you, Yeahah, but you know But you are that way. Like you're she's right about these three things, like you might be right about this one thing, but the other three things She's spot on there. likeike you're you're the annoying one, you're in the and you have to go like all right all right fine. And then you kind of edit yourself Yeah. becausecause they're your editors and you go back and you're like, okay, this is how I feel people around you who edit you. When people have read one of my books and they tell me like, well, I'm excited to meet you because I read one of your books and I want to tell them like you need to calm down your expectations because you read my book, I edited the book for a year That's the best version of me And if you didn't like the book, that's still the most you're gonna to like me because that was that was the that was all I had. That was the best That was the best way that I could phrase this.ike maybe I rewrote that sentence one hundred and fifty times before I'm like, Yeahah, this is how I feel about it I'm you meet me in real life before editing, then that's how I found writing when I was a kid. I was very bad at being in an argument. being in a confrontation. I didn't know like I always went away like Oh I should have said that. I should have said that. I should have said that So writing was my way to find. I was in argument, I think I was in an argument with my dad He's very good with works. So he would win all the time because he knew more words. I mean, he could like twist an argument and was maybe Six or seven years old and I was like I went into my room and I was really angry and instead of like engaging in the argument, I went into my room and I wrote him a letter And I started doing that a little bit with people like when I was upset with them I sat down and I wrote them a letter because then I could edit myself. So it didn't come out. it came out the way that I wanted it That's how I started writing, I think abbsolutely love this idea as framed as editor And there are peopleople who are better editors than they are writers You know where they can see the flaws in the argument or they can see how to make the argument better more than we can clarity, and we're open to editors The good writers are open to editors. The good writers know that They won't get it right and they need somebody's input to see the things that we can't see. And to think of a friend to have that same clarity and objectivity and to be able to see what we're trying to say. and for us to be open to an editor rather than to just hire somebody to just agree with our writing you said that you learned to M proud of somebody else from him. D he actually sit down and teach you the lesson? or did you just feel his joy for you and you learned it by example by watching himim Now with him, I think I learned with that that particular thing, I think I learned by example and still do. I mean, he's still my He's still very much my role model. He's always you know, show showed me how to be better person. I'm always trying to Give me an example. He was always the first with a lot of things. So he was the first to get a series relationship. We were twenty two twenty three and We would always watch movies. We would always end up at, you know whatever night it was. We were up usually have my apartment and we would watch to movies and or play video games. He met a girl and and you know, after a while they got serious and One night he just he just sat there and he like just looked at me and he said, you know what U I think this is going to be the last time for a very long time that I watch a movie with you guys I was like, what And he's like, No, I've been thinking about it and this is something that we do, but we're going to do other things. like we're going go we're going to go grab a beer. we're going to go grab dinner, We're going to hang out. we're going to go to concerts. We're still going to do all that But this Tuesday night Just sitting around watching a movie. I'm gonna do that with my girlfriend now because that time is really important for me to have with her if this is going to work. And I want this to work And he had this really discussion with us that that, you know, you need to be happy for me for this And u And we would, you know, we were twenty two, which was a, you know, and it was such a mature way of telling your friends like I love you I have to invest time in her and then A few years later He was twenty five and they had their first child And u We were twenty five years old, you know, you're not the smartest and we were all single the rest of us. so I remember we were in a room Three of his friends started as a joke and then he went a little too far And then we kind of said, Well you never, you know, you never hang out with us anymore because you always have to be with your family now that you have a kid You always have to be with your family And he sat down And he did he did it in the nicest, most compassionate way But he sat down and he looked at us and he says that I have to be with them It's that I want to be with And he is, you know, I love you. I love hanging out with you There is no situation where I wouldn't rather be with my kids. and he was so just it was such u such a moment for the rest of us, we were all single, We didn't have kids. We didn't know anything about that And we all and remember and we've talked about it afterwards, like it was such a profound moment for the rest of us in the room And it kind of impacted the way I really think it impacted the way that we looked at a relationship because after that we were we were all Okay, that's what I'm looking for. That's the thing. I'm looking at over the next F, six years, we all met someone. We're still with that person T ten, fifteen years later. We're still with that person and we all have kids. and we all look at our families the way that he So the way that he said that that day, we still were all Like we're all invested in our families in the same way. we all have this discussion all the time that People talk about quality time over quantity time and I think that's the part where we would wildly disagree. Like all four of us is like, I would rather have quantity I would rather have a hundred hours with you over the phone than like going on like this trip to Las Vegas and watch a Formula onene race or whatever, you know super experience that you could have with a group of friends I would much rather have a hundred hours with you over the phone. Yeah He's impacted me tremendously because he's always been the one to do something first. very often he said something and then three years later, I'm like I get it, though I didn't get it at the time, but I get it now. You were right There's so many things that I'm taking away from this. He's also talking about growing up. and that our life chang as we grow and we have to by We have to reprioritize And sometimes that'll come at the expense of the people who aren't at the place we're at, you know, as you said, you were single. He was in a relationship. You learned some of the things he was saying, You understand some of things he saying only three years later when some of your life caught up with some his life. But I so appreciate that level of communication Hell your friends just so you know And they get to have the reaction. No, no, no, you know as opposed to getting angry because it's more passive, which is I think unfortunately what most of us do. A because I think it's easier and B because I don't think we know how to tell our friends for fear of disaointing them or upsetting them And he didn't seem to have that fear No, no, no, I think I king about my emotions because we we were that kind of group of friends. It was always very normal to us to about how we felt, especially me and him. and it it So I had a lot of practice talking about my emoshv. And he also, you know, he's a great editor. He's very good at telling me like Yeah, you're way off here, you know. You're talking about honesty. He's honesty And he was always but it was also also this, you know, that you taught me how to U to view time We live seven hours apart in Sweden now because I moveved north. so As we talk over the phone a lot And, um So we can text each other like we both have dogs so Soll'll text them like arere you going toalk the dog? He's like, Yeahah at nine PM. I'm going to walk dog. I'll call them But we were always talking about time. like time Like he was so clear so early on in life that This is the amount of time I have. And these are the things that I need to do and I like we're still going to hang out, but I'm going to have to take a little bit of He said on multiple occasions that Like the only thing I can give you is time Like that's what I have Like that's that's what I'm that's that's what I have redeemable precious commodity and for him it was I can give you time. Whenever there's someone who loses someone person who He just gets in the car and he goes to their house. And he says, I'm here And he says, if you don't need me for anything, I'll go sit in the car, but I just I just want you to know that I'm here and at so many occasions, he's he's someone lost someone And there's this thing that happens when you lose someone that Everyone thinks Well I don't want to call, I don't want to disturb. I don't want to intrude in their So they end up sitting there alone And he would say like there are probably people who can stay smarter things or give you like more profound wors at this time or like, but I can give you like I can be around. I can be here. I can do the dishes or you know, go get food or or I'll, you know, if there there's a chore around the house, I'll do that like I'll Give me something to do. A A a lot of people listening to this are I don't want to use the word jealous or envious maybe feeling of in their vibes. And I know people are asking this, how do I get a friend like your friend Look who you are and who you become We have to we have to admit in some way shape or form way that it's you was a father, you was a husband, he was a friend, you was an author in some way, shape or form, You have become good at those things in part because of this person in your life rooting for you since the beginning Wh's been honest with you since the beginning, who's been helping manage time since the beginning I've been modeling what all it looks like you And I know a lot of people listening to this are thinking themselves How do I get that? I want that There's beauty in what you're talking about. There's also profound sadness. Theyll happen We interrupt this podcast with an ad with authenticity Authentic because we do our ads a little differently. And thank you to Porsia for being open to something a little different. I met up with race carar driver Patrick Long He's competed with Porsche in some of the most iconic races in the world, which is why I thought it would be safer if I did the driving I was a young southern California kid who was just chasing a dream of being a pro racing driver or if it was for one weekend or for what it ended up being multiple decades. I was living in Europe and I had a phone call from Porsche. I showed up to Germany not knowing much. I knew I loved Porsches as a kid growing up, but I didn't really understand what was behind this brand, their story, their DNA, and just How successful they've been in racing. Every little boy wants to be an astronaut or a race car driver. Where did your dream of being a race car driver? Where did it come from? And how did you actually get into it? Yeah, my little league was G Karts and at six years old on a closed circuit dirt road, I was in control of my destiny. There was no one telling me what to do. What was your first professional race How old were you? I was twenty one and I was racing on the German DTM schedule in a one make nine eleven cup series Down to the steering wheel in the seat, everybody's cars were identical as delivered from Porsche and basically the driver was the differentiators. It was my college career, if you will. You know, I was the first non German to be signed into the Porsche junior team, the Farm League where they developed their tree fight pilots By the fourth race, I had my first victory. and I think people were shocked not only because I was a rookie, but because I was an American. And Americans racing in Europe are sort of black sheeps for whatever reason and just still loving every new journey within the brand How do people G get a friend like I mean Part of it is just I was lucky, just the way that I talk about you know, my wife Well, I was lucky Andm, I, you know, I ran into someone Um And they were my humans. me and Riyad, my best friend And that friend grouw like that I still have, like those three friends I still have in my life and it's they're still my my my most important people and And I figured out with them and then I the same with my wife, we figured out that okay, there's There's two things that we need to be aware of here. First, we need to have rules of fighting if that makes sense And like my wife and I very early on in our relationship we had been just started dating. we agreed that we would never in a fight. No one could say No one could threaten with Like maybe we shouldn't be the together. Maybe we shouldn't, you know, maybe, well, maybe this relationship is a mistake. Maybe you should leadave me like no one could do that because that's like an atomic bomb in in like the discussion is immediately over. someone threatens to leave then the argument is immediately over. Then you won Like we set up boundaries for fighting and I think we talked about the way we fight like after the fight, we would talk for hours and hours and hours and hours about the fight. If that makes sense, like we would try to analyze each other and we would try to figure each other out and I think it was coming from a place where we understood that we are very, very, very different And I think it's the same thing with my wife. We knew immmediately going into that relationship, like we are really different people. Yeah. This is going to be a journey for both of us When you're young Pople tell you that while a relationship is a lot of work. And when you're young, you think it sounds unromantic becausecause you think like, well in that case, it's not true love. If you have to work on it, it's not true love That's because when you're young, you don't understand that the work is not on the relationship and it's not It's not it's on you The work is on you That's what people mean when they say a relationship is a lot of work. The work is it's on me. It's I have to work. I have to work on who I am communicating better explaining my feelings better understanding me better so that I can explain myself better, but also the fact that when me and Riyad has we've been friend for thirty plus years. My wife and I have been together for eighteen years and we change all the time. Like we've changed a lot Like we've changed immensely. like you find someone and you get married and then you have kids. you become a completely different person in some regards when you have kids because then then There's this whole other responsibility that I have to You're unrabling some of the tropes and the punchlines, you know, like relationships are a lot of work And your point was like, yes, but the work is on yourself. Like that' That's not people don't say that U You know, I love my relationship because I've been working on myself and I'm a better version of myself And that's my definition of a great relationship whher it's a friendship or a romantic relationship. The youth do the growth yourself. The other persons can only support you They got grow for you. and And I think when we talk about sort of the sadness that goes along with hearing about a friendship like yours, I can't accept that it's a lottery I can't accept that it's like Some people are good looking, some people are smart, and some people get great friends Like I can't accept that, you know The good looking and the smart, you know, that's genetics really is a lot of The friendship I know you said you were lucky and that's probably how you feel basased on everything you've been describing, in the in the in your relationship about the choice to do the work. and your friend's choice to spend time with his family and his choice to spend time with his his girlfriend I think the way you get one of those friends that you want is you choose to be that friend first You choose. to show up someone's house and Sammy hear it give give give you something to do. That's the work on yourself. like first shift choose to be the good friend, your friend made the choice to be a good friend of what he got back. was a great friend What's the term you use in business ROI, return of investment. That's why I talk more about quantity time than quality time. I think it's a return of investment for me. I'm the same way with my kids. Um I know that I'm not dad I know that I'm not like I'm aiming to be an okay dad. I know that I because I live in my head a lot and I'm easily distracted and I have all these things and I bad with stress and all of that, butm I'm like if I'm around enough then I will have time to make up for My mistakes. Does your wife think that you're a bad dad No, I think she would agree that I'm eually distracted. I think she she would say that I'm a good dad because I really try So That that because that's her def that's that's her definition She's a better judge at the quality of your parenting than you, I would imagine because they're her kids too She doesn't want you to screw them up. No, no, but she tells me that a lot. likeike you you you are good like they think you're a good dad because they can see how hard you try to be a good dad And then you make mistakes sometimes and that's all right and you know, you mess it up But I think it's the same way with Fships And it's the same way with my relationship with my wife, the thing we invest in is our friendship. I if that makes sense. Like if we would like I view I view that relationship as It' it's a romantic relationship. it's husband and wife, it's all of that, but it's also at its core we invested in in our friendship, like hanging out, doing things together. This whole conversation to me goes right back to where we started. on the four minute speech you gave it Sid in a shchuster which is you tried I think you're tying together a lot of things I've said a lot of things before that you're tying together for me My girlfriend, We were having a fight that went like this. I said, Here's what I got right and here's what you got wrong And responded, Well, here's what I got right, and here's what you got wrong, And you can see how this goes back and forths. some point B You know, I and I interrupted the fight and said this is not going to go anywhere good I'm changing the rules. And the rules are, I'm going to tell you what I did wrong. and I'm going to tell you what you did right, then you're going to go And that's what we did and would't thirty seconds What we both discovered is we're trying And I think this idea of letting people see that you're trying not just tell them that you're trying, but let them see that you're trying. When you show up at someone's house and say, I'm here, give me something to do, meaning, I don't know what to say. I didn't prepare anything. I don't have a sense of what right or wrong is in the situation But I'm here, give me something to do is the graves indication of I'm trying Telling your friends Guys, just so you know, this will be the last time I come to Movie Night which is I'm going try this relationship And that's the respect we had for him is was the effort that the visual effort the measurable effort is the most romantic thing in the world in a romantic relationship or a friendship or a work relationship is effort that someone is investing in and a person Not that they get it right. And I think you're an amazing father. because you're trying so hard to be a good father Yeah I I this I don't know why I'm so emotional today Like I have close friends and I have a good relationship with my folks and They are both amazing parents. you know I don't know why this is touching me so much I mean, this is super emotional to me too because we're talking about, you know, we're talking about these are my most important rel like My wife, my kids and my best friends. These are my, you know, humans. I always separate Like I always try to explain that that I don't There are people and there are humans. like humans, you have maybe seven humans that you chose. These are your And then people are the ones at the airport. You can be annoyed by people and still love humans. My best friend and my wife if they would have If they would have gone on one of like the matchmaking websites or something, one of the apps or whatever it is now, it's like I'm too old for that, but I'm too old to understand the technology now. but Like if they would have put themselves through an algorithm and said Find me a person They would have never found me Like never in a million years would an algorithm have said this lunatic, he's the guy for you. never I was fortunate in the way that I stumble upon people early on in my life that was very different for me And I found out very quickly that that was a good thing for me. That was Like I needed people who were Not like me. so that I could look at their best qualities and strive for them. I want to sort of double click on one other thing, which is you're very self deprecating and There's a difference between being self deprecating and being having low self esteem and I think you're self deprecated. You accept you I think you find you funny I think your ego is healthy And I think the ability to be sub deprecating in a way that you're Owning. either real shortcomings or perceived shortcomings is by by naming it You can say I'm working on it. I'm trying. you can make it a thing as opposed to N naming it Keeping it hidden means it can never be addressed, it can never grow. and that then becomes an insecurity And I'm fascinated by healthy self deprecators You know where by putting it asshere to put it tow I mean, I do. I think there's a difference between Uh, I'm I'm no good at this versus, yeah, I'm no good at this. But it's not a giving up It's an identifying and that's the difference I think low self esteem is giving up and accepting this this is my lot. This is how I am Dprecation when it's healthy is simply identifying something and saying, look, sometimes it goes better, sometimes it get worse. I'm working on it You know, haven't conquered it yet, but still doing it. and it probably might take me my whole life and I may never get to the standard I want, but I'm working on it And I think the ability to put it out there. does so many things. A, I think it's super healthy. It also makes you super authentic It also allows others to support you in whatever a journey you're trying to grow in I mean, I watched your speech And I was So inspired by it. because I just love that you just put it out there and said This is what I'm going to try and do and Here you go I also wonder how much of it is just because you're Swedish You know, what is it Yanta? what's it called? Yanta? gentle the gentle law Yet the young there's a certain part of it. so that people know what we're talking about. Do they teach it at school in Sweken Yeah, it's just a common everybody knows yourself, never brag, never think you're better than anybody else, donon't seek attention. It's all of these forced humility things and Swedes, you know, I know like if you walk through the very, very fancy street with all the fancy shops in downtown Stockhol. likeike in the Gucci and the Prada, in the window, nothing has a logo on it you know, no conspicuous displays of wealth. is look down upon and talking about yourself and bragging about yourself I think a certain part of it, sure. and I think it's to a certain extent I defend Yante I think it's I mean for for For some of us, it's kind of good. It's like, you know, don't get too full of yourself. The bad quality of it is what you call craps in a bucket U like one crab tries to get out of the buckets and the other crabs pull him back down. Yeah. But I think part of it is that Sweden is a small country. And I think it's the same if you grow up in America, but in a small town kind of It does something to you You have this idea that we kind of have to stick together a little bit Yes. And we have to find a way to get along because there's fewer of us And so there I think there's a positive quality to it, but I also think honestly, I think it's a huge part of it. I've always looked for people who are different from me. I think I I very It was good for me to very early on in life understand like the people that I bought head with, like the people that I get annoyed by Yeah, veryer often people who are more like me. Like I get annoyed with someone at the airport and my wife and my kids will go like, yeah, because he's like you That's how you are when you're having a bad day. That's how you are when you're annoyed by something It was a blessing for me very early on in my life that I have stumbled on, but also have sought out people who were very different from me So that I mean what you call self deprecating. it's also Part of it is also that You know, if you hang out with people are very different from you, you kind of learn how to make jokes about how different you are Yeah you You you understand the way that you are different from the people around you. Sure, it can be self deprecating, but it can also be this We never feel that we deserve each other We always feel that we have to earn it Like I always feel like I have to I have And the attention of my wife. Like I always feel like I have to try a little harder to make her laugh or to to you know, to make her think that I'm doing okay. What you're talking about is doing the work. What you're talking is is is you're doing the work of the relationship. likeike it requires effort. L you can't take any for grantage. You have to earn it every single day. That's the work. Like I have very few close friends, I have a few humans in my life because I figured out very early on that I You for you to the best out of me. you have to spend lot of time with me because I'm also going to be very annoying and I'm also going to be very intense sometimes because I can, you know I'm very often at a one or an eleven. I talk too little or I can't shut up. It's So There's a lot of things that I'm going to do that you're going to find highly annoying. So I need So I need a lot of time from you so that you can see my good qualities too. And I figuure that out and realized from, you know, Riyad's lesson that Okay, so everything is about time, then I can't have I can't have three hundred friends. It's u because I'm never going to be able to give them the best of me For the record, I like the Yantalor My only complaint about it is that all of those things are expressed in the negative. Don't do this, don't be this, donon't do this, don't do. and I would love to see it updated for the modern world that says Be humble Be appreciative of others. seeee the value in others. I'd rather the young law tells us what to do rather than not what not to do. And I wonder if it's a bucket of crabs because everybody's saying you can't do that. as opposed to Let's lift each other up as opposed to pull each other down has actually incredibly clever and very, very true and I have to admit that I've been living with this my entire life and I haven't thought about it that way, but it's exactly that. It should be if you if you would just turn around and say These are the things you should do then It would be a list of very positive things because that's the kind of like all of the things are things that you try to teach your kids. I like Yanta. I just wish it was expressed. I'm going rewrite all the Yanta laws. in the affirmative. That's what I'm going to do. should This I think I think this could really this could really benefit all of us. I wish I could have ten more hours. the I'm so profoundly moved by this idea of time and choice you know, and I'm so I'm so curious about Ry out of his if he's is his obsession with the time if it's born out of fear. or somethingomething else So you know, this is a very personal thing to say about someone that you have in your life and that I love, you know immensely I think it's A fear for him, it's always been a fear of not being enough for people Like that's his main fear for a long time. he like every If you rise within a company, you get a new role, you become All of a sudden you're the boss of people you used to work with Yeah and you have to change your identity a little. You have to This c there's a new responsibility now and I have to think differently. I have to be a service to others and all that. I think he He had this self esteem problem at every new level he felt Everyone knows more than I do. They have more education that I do They come from this huge background. They bring so much to the table I don't have anything that I'm bringing. So he always felt that he had to outwork everybody. He had to come the best prepared, the most like he had to just find so much things to bring to the table, everyone else just showed up But he felt to deserve a seat at the table, I have to bring so much more than everyone else This is something that I learned later on in life that I'm dealing trying to learn now, trying to deal with now But I think I kind of I develop this fear of disappointing people which my wife has told me a lot Like you have this fear of disappointing people A it' so strong in you that You do like you try to do too much. And then when you don't feel appreciated or you feel like, oh, I think they're disappointed me, you kind of lash out even before they've reacted You're so afraid that they'll be disappointed that you lash out at them, you become angry before they're even disappointed. Yeah, you you kind of you took it out in advance and I'm really trying to become better at that My wife told me in so many words, sometimes You the only thing you want is for the kids to be happy And you want that so much. So if we're at some place And you wanted them to be so happy when we got to this place and you get kind of upset with them for not being happy enough And and that's not on them. that's on you because you raised your expectations of how happy you were going to make them. And so this is this is a you problem. I had a guess on my on the pegas B got it And he talked about expectations of fantasy And what happens is we have these expectations, we have these fantasies. And then what happens is if real life doesn't match that, that's where the disappointment happens you plan something for you kids. and in your mind, They scream and shout and dad, you're the may this the best thing ever. That's That's the fantasy that you concocted in your mind when you show up and when reality shows up and it's not that. it's the delta that leaves you so disappointed leaves us so disappointed. And his whole point was like, Can you let go of the fantasy that you plan the thing and the reaction will be whatever the reaction will be trying to let go of the expectation because you're only going to be disappointed No, but it's entirely true. I've been plagued by this my whole life. like I I am more excited for the things I plan for people than they are and I I've had to learn that the gesture is the thing and not the reaction. and I still struggle with it Here's another question for you. How can we understand bullies without excusing them? I think for me it's to see how much I have in common with them. I write books and it's not to be self deprecated. it's not to be humble, but I often tell people that the The worst people in my books, the worst characters, they're very often from me The most annoying characters, the characters with a lot of flaws and a lot of who do stupid things They're very often from me and the best characters are from people around me. Those are the people that I aspire to people find something in my writing or in my characters that they connect to, it's very often that. I don't start I don't I don't write about the best parts of me. I write about the really, you know, the parts of me that I'm not super proud of, that the, you know, when I'm envious or I'm, you know,m I'm petty or'm I'm mean. I don't excuse bullies by saying o but there's good in them I excuse them by seeing but the things that they do there are within me too And maybe I'm far from them that I wish I was if that was is such a brilliant device which is instead of forcing each other to find the good of the people we don't like or disagree with, but rather to find what we have in common to people we don't like Blly us All I find that much more humbling And it's not so it's not so arrogant, which is boy, I'm pretty flawed too And I think what it does is it it produces empathy. It helps you understand another person who's don't like or disagree with I do that a lot with my wife that I say You know, someone did something at, you know, we see someone do something or say something or behave badly and we come home You know, maybe we're at a party or dinner or something and I come home and I say You know, I I I saw him say this or I saw him behave in this way And I got this shame that That is probably something that I do once in a while and I have to become better at fighting that part of me. And it's not to be to be sef deprecating or humble, but I think that I'm in large parts a narcissist. I really do.. I just fight it And I think that's Maybe that was my you know, survival mechanism kicking in that that I have to find people around me who are different from me and better from me so that they constantly remind me not to be A jerk Yeah because I struggle with my narcissism all the time. likeike I fight it actively be to be better because I think I if I let it loose, it would just I would I would be a horrible, horrible person I think of myself as an idiot Um There are people who are much smarter than me, much more disciplined than me, much more school than me. I the thing that I have though, that I do recognize and I don't joke. when I say that I'm an idiot, I'm not being self deprecating and I'm not sort of, it's not full humility The one thing that I'm very comfortable being is outwardly curious sayaying I don't know or saying, can you explain that again, please because I don't understand the way you explain it the first time and saying and asking the questions that other people are afraid to ask because it'll make them look dumb And I already know I'm an idiot, so I'm not going to look any dumber than I already think I am And so I ask those questions and I The result is I get to learn more because I simply ask the question And hopefully, whatever I learn, I want to share, but I don't believe in being selfish with anything I learned because I think the lessons are interesting And the other thing I hate is Tadaz Like I hate I write my books I never wanted to be like Wait for it Wait for it. And look how smart I am always want my reader to come to my conclusion one cage before I reveal it So that by the time I reveal it, they go, oh yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah Copic Sats, Yeah, of course But it's a it's the whole u I think it's u It's a very generous way of writing. It's a very generous way of telling a story. It's why I like Sweden and it's why I like Yng Talon and it's why like I just want it to done affirmatively But it's why I like all those things because because And you said it, like it's that small country small town like it's either us or none of us I don't necessarily like you, but like we got to do this, you know? So we all have different jobs to make the machine go just everybody has to do their job. but it's Every job is important to the machine becausecause I write, that's what I do. I'm only interested in like writing and storytelling But you have this incredible inclusive way of writing. You have this way of writing where you feel immediately that someone is with you, not to you, not down to you. There are so many people that I know My best friend included, who will say, I don't read a lot of books And Rard will say like they're like I'll read Frederick's books because he's my best friend. And but I don't, you know, I'm not a great book reader. And he says that all the time. Yeah, but he's great all of yours And I think a lot of peopleeople will say that no I don't read books, but I read Simon Yeah. And that's Like the best compliment I get as a writer, the ones I value the most is when people come up to me at book signings when your teachers or parents and they say No, I have a teenage kid or my husband or someone in their life and they said, they don't read books. they don't read ever. But they read one of your books and now they're reading other books Yeah, you were like being a gateway to harder literature, if that makes sense. It's the greatest thing that a person can be. And I think you're opening a lot of doors to people. They read you and they feel like Maybe I can read other stuff too. and that's amazing Thank you, Fredrick This is I know why they gave me discretion to ask you and this is the because I have a very strong opinion about this this Who has the world's best cardamen butunon O the world's best We do, the sweets. I know a bakery in Stockholm that I will wal I walk out of town to go to it's called Et Bageri And it is profoundly good how good that cardamon bun is Yeah, but I think you will you would raisen butt with butter. Oh I could just eat I could just sit there eat bread all day But you'll get I think from a lot of Swedes, you will get the same answer that you would get if you asked an Italian about the best pasta, they would sayve my mother Well, I would like to compare your mothers to Etbageri and we'll have we'll have a bun off. She's right up there, I promise you. I love cardamon and I love bread I also know that it ends with the letter N, not the letter M. It's not card a M, it's card a M. I know that Like a ring of tenen, not a ring of tenang U But it's these little things. anyway. very complicated. There's a lot of things to keep in your head. And this is why I stay up all night. You're absolutely right about that that bakery. It's it's it's it's awesome. I think we have a, you know Bakery wice, Stockholm is that's the best P what an absolute joy didn't expect it to be so emotional and I'm really grateful I got to learn from you. I get to try to be a little better version of myself today Thanks to this. thanks to you. So I really really appreciate it. Really love. reallyally love the conversation. lovevely meeting. I really appreciated you having me on. It was really nice. I never know what people expect. I don't know what you were hoping for with this. so I I really hope your viewers aren't disappointed that Because I imagine they tune in for someone to be super smart and have profound insights and maybe know a lot of research and science. Well, then they wouldn't be coming to me because I know no research and no science. So they'd be disappointed with or without you if that wouldn' the thing they're coming for And was it was a real real pleasure and thank you so muchoy A bit of optimism is a production of the optimism comany Lovingly produced by our team, Lindseay Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts and if you want even more cool stuff, visit Simonsinic. com Thanks for listening Take care of yourself. take care of each other