Hamilton and the Future of Art

This is In Conversation from Apple News. I'm David Green in for Shimita Basu. Today, the music that changed America This summer marks the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the United States, and many of us are taking time to reflect on our history and the forces that have made America what it is today As I was reflecting on how to mark this milestone, I thought about an art form that unites us, brings us joy, and has the ability to affect great change, music I wanted to have us see the power that music can have in our political world Anna Harwell Chalenza, a musicology professor at Johns Hopkins University, and the author of the book on the record Music That Changed America tells the story of a range of musical works from the Star Spangled Banner all the way to Hamilton, that whether the artist intended to or not changed how Americans think about the issues that define us. and sometimes even motivated lawmakers to act I sat down with Anna to explore her four favorite examples from the book, how they show up in our lives todayod, and why music is at the heart of America's story. We can't talk about our nation having a big birthday without talking about the Star Spangled banner. R. And you do focus on that in the book and talk about that the song really was imbued with different meanings and different political purposes over its lifetime Let's start with what the political climate was You know, when Francis Scott Ky composed these lyrics in eighteen fourteen. Yeah. so we were in the sort of final bits of the war of eighteen twelve And Francis Scott Ky was a lawyer. He lived in Washington DC, but he was also in Baltimore. The British had just basically burned Washington DC to the ground, and Baltimore was sort of the last holdout So he witnesses this bombing of Fort McKenry. And the next day sees that despite the British bombing, the Baltimoreians had hung in there and the American flag goes up. as the sun comes over the horizon And he writes these lyrics with sort of this great feeling of victory and patriotism and this sort of thing. Right from the beginning, though, he picks a tune called too Anacreon in Heaven. It's a song that had been written in Britain. It was a men's drinking song for a sort of aristocratic men's club. And that's sort of how the song takes off. It doesn't become the national anthem until nineteen thirty one And in all that time in between, there were lots of songs that were kind of negotiating to be the song that gets used at official events to represent the United States I also should note, I put this song in connection to Lift Every Voice and Sing which was composed around nineteen hundred. The reason for that is, I think We are still sort of having a debate in our society about What does represent America? And that's a theme I talk about in a lot of ways, What's the American sound? What's the American idea? What's the American concept? And so the Star Spingle banner from the beginning was a protest song. I mean, people got upset when Colin Kaperneck took a knee and said, Oh, how dare you do this? From the very beginning, you had groups on the far right, in the far left, you had suffragettes, you had abolitionists You had folks that were pro prohibition. using this the song is for their own kind of messaging and agenda. Exactly. It's like, hey, let's add a new, you know, lyric and you know, change what this song means Why was this song the Star Spangle Banner ultimately chosen as the song? Like what was that conversation like in the nineteen thirties? Well, first of all, the Maryland senators and members of the House and Congress were very adamant about they wanted this to be the one. So they fought very hard, long and hard. And lobbying has always been alive and well in our countryact Eactly. But the big push was the fact that we were really witnessing the height of The stock market crash from nineteen twenty nine. and our country was economically in a shambles. We were divided. very strongly politically, know there was the far right and the far left. There were those who were very, very wealthy and those who weren't. And so what you see in the thirties is Congress working really hard to come up with ways to unify the country. And the Star Spangle Banner was one of those things. They wanted to create some secular rituals so that there are things we do in public spheres that make us feel united. And so the Star Spangle banner became that. Like we are at sporting events before classical music concerts at high school graduations, this is the song that we are going stand up and put our hand over our chest and we are going to sing this song together and that will create a sense of unity in coming together Well, I want to move to another song. You know, in twenty twenty two, President Biden signed the Emmettill Anti lynching Act into law far too late, I think I would say and so many people would say The song Strange Fruit, which I know most of us really associate with the incredible sing of Billy Hooliday. t very strange rouit Blood on the lees and blood at the root Talk about that song and how it played a role in finally getting an anti lynching act signed by a US president Yeah, so this is a protest song that truly made a difference And as much as you said that Biden was too late in doing it, at least he did it. In two thousand five, you had the Senate actually apologize for the fact that they have never passed federal anti lynching legislation. So this was a tune written by Abel Mirapol He was white Jewish hard caring member of the Communist Party, and he was a high school teacher in the Bronx And he sort of witnessed what was happening for the good and for the bad as far as race relations in the United States. He had a very integrated sort of childhood growing up, had good friends that were black, went to school with them as we get into the nineteen thirties, we see lots of lychings. you see the NAACP and the Communist Party of the United States of America really talking about it, saying, this is horrific. This should not be happening in this country. And I should say the Communist Party in the nineteen thirties was very much about quality And as Abel Miripol read and witnessed more and more descriptions of horrific lynchings of Back Americans She One day just reacted and he wrote a poem So he published this in a teacher's magazine, and then he set it to music He and his wife, Anne sing it, perform it at communist rallies, know, trying to kind of say, look, we've got to get some anti lynching legislation going in this country And then in nineteen thirty nine, He finds out about this new club called Cafe Society. It was the first inte racially integrated club in New York City where the performers and the audiences were black and white And Billy Holiday was the house singer and it was recommended to him You know, this song would take on a really different meaning if you could get her to sing it One of the most important decisions probably ever made in the history of important songs. this and you describe K of the talk about imagery, like the scene when Billy Holiday would perform this song Everyone would stop. they would stop serving drinks and stop clanking and the entire room was just absolutely silent so everyone could digest the words that she was singing. g Bulging eyes and the twisted bone. And then when she recorded it, her recording company was like, we're not touching this. So she went to a small independent record store actually that had a recording studio in New York City and recorded it and it took off. Yeah. What was the impact it had? likeike what role do you think this song played in ultimately getting federal anti lynching legislation passed and signed by U. S. Pident. Well, first of all, in the thirties and the forties, you had people buying copies and sending them to members of Congress. You had the Theater Action Council, which was this sort of arts group that was very politically engaged, printing the lyrics and sending them to everybody in the state And then because of the sort of anti communism in the nineteen fifties, and the song kind of got linked to that. And so a lot of people that had not Billy Holay, but a lot of people who had sung the song got blacklisted as being communist. And so the song kind of dropped for a little bit. But then the sixties, when Nina Simone was putting her protest music out there, she's like, I'm gonna to record this again. then the song took off Sim Mat Noria M. Then the sudden smell I And so it's one of those things that anytime folks are fighting against injustices, this song will get brought up. It got brought up in South Africa, during the apartheid, it got sung a lot. So there is a real power to know what this song is saying that I think people didn't give up on. And I remember They passed federal anti lynching legislation. And I was thrilled and I remember watching on TV as Biden signed it and kind of following the social media feed, and all these people were putting up links to Stange Fruit. Well, you bring up apartheid in South Africa and that brings up another musician and an album that you've given me a greater understanding of and its role kind of In our country and in our American songbook, Paul Simon, his nineteen eighty six album Gracelland, which I lo I mean I fel like he was bringing, you know, South African African culture into our music. I'm Grac M Tsee Grac poys families we are Had no idea that there was controversy around his decision to go and sort of study South African music and bring it home What is important for us to know about that nineteen eighty six album that we might not know? Oh, I think the most important thing is it was during an era of cultural boycotts. and so just to set the scene, the United Nations was very much trying to pressure South Africa. to get rid of its apartheid legislation, which is basically know legally separating blacks and whites, pushing black, South Africans out of their homes and pushing them into other lands Batusanans that they called them. So the UN is against that. manyany countries are against that. Reagan has just recently become president. So there were people pushing for various boycotts, economic, political, but also cultural boycotts in a way of this will pressure South Africa to stop this, you know, the government to stop this. But also when President Reagan, like he decided not to go forward with some of the economic boycotts saying that that was not necessary that racial justice was going to come with time, which I'm sure was leading some people who were pushing for these cultural boycottss to do even more to put pressure on the Reagan administration. Exactly. Yeah. There is definitely a lot of conversation, a lot of debate going on. I'll just personally say, I think economic boycotts do work. I mean, we've seen that happen. I think cultural boycotts are really dangerous. Cultural boycott is about like thoughts and ideas and culture. So that meant academics couldn't interact. that meant you couldn't perform with South Africans. It meant you couldn't invite artists from South Africa to come to the United States Paul Simmon around this time hears some music, you get this tape and it's got some instrumental music of You know, South African bands, black South African bands. And he's like, Ohh my God, I've never heard anything like this before There's something about the rhythms that are in there and some of the harmonies. I feel a link to, you know the music I grew up on, but it's also so different. and I just want to be a part of this. And so He goes over there Rnts a studio with, you know, his label helps him and and he records with a bunch of bands beforefore he goes, he spends like six months getting any recording he can and studying the music so that he is going over there sort of in an informed way The big debate that comes up is some people go, o, well he was a powerful white guy, and he went over there and he appropriated and he took their music and then he came over and made this album I don't think that's a fair assessment. And to kind of set it up as a metaphor I think if you are doing cultural exchange You could be an invader, like you can go in to this other place and take what you want and bring it back. But you could also be a tourist and you can be a good tourist. And a good tourist is someone who goes into a place and says, I don't know anything about this And I completely understand that I'm an outsider, but I am just so fascinated. Let me be a part of this. And if you are a good tourist for long enough Eventually you'll be a guest. They'll invite you to come in. And I think that I would like to think of it that way with Paul Simon. The one thing I would say about that is first of all, the US, even at this time never officially engaged in a cultural boycott. So Paul Simon never did anything illegal or wrong or wrong. The UN had like called for this, but the UN didn't have any control in that way But Paul Simon said I don't feel like as a musician, I have to go to a politician and say, can I go sing a song with this other person? So I think the important thing is it's about person to person and artist to artist And so I think that's kind of where peace happens because You're not looking at someone as sort of a stereotype of a particular nationality. You're actually connecting with someone on a human level Well, Nelson Mandela thought of it that way, right? I mean Nelson Mandela after getting out of prison, like, I mean, appeared with Paul Simon and endorsed the album. Yeah. and then brought him back said now you have to be the first act to come and tour South Africa. I mean, he was invited back as a guest. Well, I think one of the biggest sort of intersections of politics and music in recent time in our country is Hamilton, the Blockbuster Broadway showhow, and Lyn Manuel, Miranda, the music I mean, it's so interesting to me because I of that intertwined in our politics. I think about Lynn Manuel, Miranda's personal progressive agenda, but that show remind us of its origins, because this was not Lyn Manuel Miranda wanting to send some sort of political message in this moment, right? It came from a different place. No, it came from honestly a place of joy and being very happy about sort of living in this time and this place and this country It was in two thousand nine that he kind of first got the idea for this I should say he was already famous for having written in the Heights, which had won the Tony Awards. And when President Obama came into office, one of the first things he and Michelle did is they started having these evenings of poetry and word poetry and music And so Linman and Miranda got invited. Everyone assumed he was going to sing a song from In the Heights. But instead, he got up and he said, you know, I've got this song about someone who, you know really embodies the nature of like hip hop and the power of the word, and it's a Hamilton and it by last. And the world is going know Aanda Hamilton This Alexander Hamilton. there's a million things he hasn't done, but just you wait, just you wa. It's the most powerful performance. It's like a piano and Lyin Man and Miranda like doing the opening song to Hamilton. He was thinking it was gonna to be a concept album. He wasn't thinking of this being another musical when he first did it That's amazing. But then what's so interesting is the Broadway opening in the summer of twenty fifteen happens just as the first Republican debate of the twenty sixteen election cycle is taking place. And then of course, you know, President Trump comes in office, like was this an example of just sort of the political climate in our country totally changing how piece of art and a piece of music was going to be received and digested Yeah. And in fact, at that debate, there were a lot of people that brought up the fact, isn't this funny that Hamilton just officially debuted on the same night that this debate is happening and then started talking about the various Republicans in this debate like as if they were various characters from Hamel. And so it was kind of fascinating If I may say, I love Hamilton. I think it's an amazing piece. It frustrates me when people will critique it because there's some historical element that didn't get discussed to their liking and that sort. This is not a documentary. This is a piece of art And I think we have to remember when it was written and why it was written. and Lmanu Miranda wanted to say we shouldn't just cancel the founding fathers because of their flaws as humans What's important about the founding fathers is not who they were as people. The idea is that they set pen to paper And we still are not yet, you know the land of the free home of the Brave. But we're working towards that. And so to have that multir racial caste to make us sort of see what is America. And as Liman Miranda said, he wanted to tell a story about America then by in America that exists now. And I think that was a powerful thing. Where I think things have gone a little wrong is I think that in the last election We stopped listening. We stopped listening to the music. So yes, music was represented, but not by any pieces. It was represented by There's Beyonce, and there's Taylor Swift, and there's Ly Man Miranda and they're standing next to my candidate That worries me because that's not about the art, then that's about the celebrity. And so that is a very different scorecard from, oh my God, did you hear that song? That song is so powerful. You know, that made me feel something or think something in a different way You know, it makes me think of that moment after one of the showings of Hamilton where Mike Pence was in the audience and there was this very tense exchange between some cast members, wanting to send a message to Mike Pence about, you know, he and President Trump and their Immigration polic Vice President Elect Pence, we welcome you and we truly thank you for joining us here at Hamilton and American Music. We really do. We sve, We are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us. And Mike Pence actually said, I think a day or two later, like I had no problem with the cast wanting to say those things to me. I heard the remarks that were made at the end and you know, what I can tell you is I wasn't offended by what was said If it just ended there That to me was sort of a beautiful interaction because it was artists wanting to kind of underscore a message and it was a politician saying, I'm okay hearing that. All the reaction afterwards was sort of, I don't know, like the worst of our society and how we grapple with moments like that Yeah, there was just a lot of bickering after that As we talk here in twenty twenty six and hit this two hundred fiftieth anniversary of our country and you think so deeply about music If we lose this connection between music and kind of our politics What are we missing as a society Well, I think we're missing a lot. I would start there by saying, I don't think those things are missing. I think there are musicians that are doing all of those things. The problem is How do we get to hear them? And so I guess my worry is that the internet stays open, that know net neutrality continues, that people have access to these sorts of things. becausecause if we lose the arts, if we lose, and I don't just mean music, but you know there's lots of book banning that's happening now with literature I think novels and poetry and songs And even art, you know, visual artworks They enable us to imagine a world that we don't live in or to get to know someone that we maybe don't encounter in our everyday lives. And so it just helps us kind of see the world a little bit broader. Maybe it helps you create more empathy for people who are like yourself. But even more than that, I think gives us a sense of joy. I mean, I would say with all of these works that I talk about, There is a sense of what we call human flourishing. And I think if we J just focus on how do we commodify this and how do we make money from this? We lose the ability to really listen to a world that Cha speaks to our hearts and speaks to our thoughts and gets us to think about not just our place in the world, but how we can help other people find a place in this world. And I thank you so much. I'd love to talking to you about this. This is great fun. Thank you so much for the opportunity. We'll include a link to Anna Harwell Cha Lenz's book on the Reord Music that Changed America on our show Nes page. And every weekend, you can find new episodes of Apple News and Conversation in the Apple News app. Just tap on the audio tab, the little headphones at the bottom to find it