Looking Toward the Future

Before we get to the episode, we just want to say thank you seriously , thank you. You've probably heard us talking about our spring fundraiser and how your support helps us make more episodes of Beer hustle, while also allowing us to bring our li ve show and our storytelling workshops into prisons around the country. And one of the best parts of the fundraiser is hearing from you all . We love the comments you share with us when you donate . Like this note from L ena after our corny ass episode named by you . I adore your podcast and I'm grateful for all the work you do and hugs are necessary and life saving. Nothing cheesy about 'em. That's right That's right . Okay, or this one from another L named Laura, amazing podcast. I truly appreciate the work all of you do. Inside and outside you, thank for including the women. Honestly, though, only a small percentage of listeners donate less than one percent . It's tough out there, we know, and we get it. That's why we are so appreciative of the gifts we do get. Your donations help us do the work we do, visiting prisons, telling stories, and bringing you voices that aren't often heard. And every single gift helps us get closer to our goal of one thousand donors. But time is running out before the end of the fundraiser and the end of the fiscal year. We need your help before the end of this month. Donate today at EarhustleSQ. com slash donate or by following the link in the episode notes . And in case we haven't said it enough , thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. It means so much to us to be able to do this work , and we couldn't do it without you. No, we couldn't. This is Sam Robinson , the retired lieutenant and retired public information officer from San Quentin State Prison. The following episode of Ear Hustle contains language and content that may not be appropriate for all listeners . Discretion is advised . I was actually going to breakfast and I ran into one of my friends. People was like, Yeah, man, that's the guy who killed Lor ny right there . This is De Marion . He hadn't been in San Quentin long when he found out that the guy who murdered his little brother Runny was there at San Qu entin too . Every morning I used to see him. He'd come with his dog and I'd be waiting for breakfast . He was kind of eating at me a little bit . I was hit with a choice. So what do I do? Like do I continue to live my street life? Do I change and go home ? Anything could happen right here . I just went into my cell and I just went downhill . I went downhill . This is a tough spot that De Marianne was in because if you find yourself alongside the person who murdered your family member , the unwritten protocol is revenge an eye for an eye . But assaulting someone in prison means adding a whole new sentence and any hope of getting out of prison soon , I mean, that's going to be over. When you've lived your life by the rules of the street, what does it take to choose a different path? I'm Nigel Poor. I'm Erlon Woods, and this is Earhustle from PRX 's Radiotopia . Can you tell us a little bit about Runny . Well , he's a bubbly guy , very very intelligent, smart. That's why people didn't know that he was the age that he was. I was three years older than him at the time. I was nineteen. He was sixteen . When you think about him, what's one memory that comes to mind? His mouth and how much he said to him, I love you, brother. I love you. I love you . I love you . He knew it to live life . He knew we get to live life . He knew to live life . Are you able to tell us the story of that day? Do you know what happened ? I think that is something for him to tell y'all, not me. I'm just gonna be honest with you. That's not that's his truth. That's not mine . That's not even something I even want to just even relive it sometimes because I would just in order to sit down with you guys I had to go relive that As I was seeing about the story, I was like, oh, wow , I now understand I think why you ripped up that photograph so small . Yeah, that's the old Sedek. Yeah . Yeah, that was Derail . That of course is Sadiq from our inside team, or Derail . That's his government handle. It's what people called him before he came to prison. And when I mentioned up there ripping up a photograph . I'm referencing that episode we did some seasons back where I asked the guys to bring their photographs down to the lab to look at. And as part of that conversation , I asked them if any of them wanted to rip one up and destroy it in like a ritualistic way. Remember that? Yep. And Sedik, he was only one that took you up on it. He ripped up a photo he had of himself back when he was living that thug life when he went by rail , short for derail. Yeah, and at the time I didn't fully understand why he wanted to make that image disappear but Erlon after hearing this story , it made a lot more sense. I don't know exactly how you're feeling about this. And I've been thinking about this a lot. I mean, I only know you in one way , and that's the way I always see you no matter what we talk about. But it occurs to me that this is a site of Sadiq. Yeah . This is different. Yeah . Mr. Stug, Sadiq , can you tell us about how you came to be here like the night your crime happened. So on november fourteenth, two thousand eight, I shot and killed Ronnie Greer. How old were you at the time? So I was twenty two. Ronnie and Sadik were part of the same sort of loose social circle in Oakland , and Sadiq says for some reason there just always seemed to be tension between them . It was just something about them. I don't know what it was. We was always clashing. Like me and Ronnie was always in some type of dis likeagreement for some reason. I don't understand , but we was always in a disagreement . I got into altercation with Ronnie Greer like, I really can't remember what it was about . It was so long ago, maybe my mind is just not taking me there , but I got into altercation with him . That day went by . I left his house. I went home . The only thing I was thinking of was that I'm this person. Like I can't let nobody talk to me like that. If you ever get at me again, you know, it's gonna be problems. We had another altercation. I told my cousin like I'm tired of shit. I'm just tired of just going back and forth with them. I got to do something about it . That night I went to go get a gun . We got on the freeway and went back to the house that Ronnie was standing at Told me we just gonna go get some girls . Ronnie was kind of like hesitant but he's like, all right, I'm riding . Did you know what was going to happen when you got in the car ? I had my mind made up that tonight was going to be the night . I don't know where but tonight was going to be the night. I have my mind made up already . This was premeditated . So there's four just of 'em in the car. Sadiq's cousin is driving. Runny's in the passenger seat. Sadiq's right behind Runny , and Sadiq's brother's next to him in the back seat. We went to a quick shop. We was going to get some liquor and from there we got on the freeway . I pulled out the gun . I was kind of like whispering to my brother like I just got this gun . He was like, What you doing with the gun? I'm like, don't worry about it My cousin don't know this is about the transpire in this car. My brother don't know what's going on . Only I know . We take an exit. As we take in that exit, I cock the gun, but nobody can hear the music is on. Like nobody 's paying attention to me . I shoot Ronnie Greer in the back of the head as we go down the underpass of the freeway and the gun jams , I hear my brother over here like, Oh my god, like he's basically like in awe of what's going on . I fixed the gun and shoot him again in the head I was hoping that he was dead . Like I was telling myself, I hope that he's dead because I don't want no retaliation . I don't want him to be alive and know that I shot him. So I was hoping that he was dead in the car I remember saying that in my mind like, please be dead . And as we turn in , Ronnie's body just went limp against the door panel and that's when I tell my cousin in the front like help me push him off the car . He's driving, he's looking shot and my brother's looking shot . He just was just sitting there just like a deer in a headlight . My cousin opened up the door and then I push his body out and we drive off as we drive and off , I remember my brother asking me like why did you kill my friend ? And I told him he had to go . I can see all the fear on my brother's face and I told him Bennett say nothing . So that meant I was willing to do something to my brother The way I was talking to him just feared him even more After we got to my house, I was replaying the scenes just like over and over and over . I think at the time I was happy. I was happy that I believed that he was there . So I'm just curious, man, why did you go to the extreme of killing this young dude, like why you just didn't fight him ? Fear ? I assume what he was capable of . I didn't want nothing to happen to me after we have a fight. You didn't stop to think like I got two witnesses in the car with me and this guy you didn't think about none of that. You just was like, I want to do it in front of him just to So what I thought was this is my family, this is my blood . That my blood is going to always have my back . I thought that nobody would never find out because this is my flesh and blood , my brother and my cousin . Did anybody talk about it after that day ? We never really talked about it. I didn't talk to my brother about it. I just remember my mom calling me saying she 'd need to talk to me . I'm like art . So she picked me up and we just drive in. She's just talking but not really talking about anything. So I know something's about to come up . She said, Why do you kill that boy? This one I found out he's sixteen. She's like, why do you kill that boy? I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't kill anybody. She's like, he killed that boy. Was that the most violent thing you had done up until that point in your life . Yes. Were you surprised that you had that in you? Back then it felt easy. It felt easy to pull a chair . It felt easy to talk crazy to people. It felt easy fight people . It was just like another thing to do in the streets . When you think about it, runny sixteen years old What gave you the audacity to say your life don't mean anything So it was really just about me at the time . I wasn't even thinking about his life. I was just thinking about what people were going to think about me . I wanted to be acknowledged as somebody that you fear . I wanted to be acknowledged as somebody that you don't mess with . I wanted people to love me and I wanted to gain reputation . I wanted to not let Ronnie make me feel like I was less than . So I took his life . What is it like having to tell us about this ? It hurts . It's a lot of shame there that I cause so much pain pain . It's a lot of shame that comes with it . About a month after he killed Ronnie, Sadik was arrested. He ended up receiving a sentence of eighty two years to life . Right. And by the time I met Sadik, he had been in prison for over ten years, and that old self, you know, the one he called Rel , was very much in the past. But Lin De Marion , the brother of the guy Sed shot in the cart that night, ended up at San Quentin, and for Sedik, that meant confronting his old self all over again. More on that after the break This is Our Glass. On this American life, one thing we like is a good mystery. Sometimes it's about really big things, things you hear in the news , but most times the little mysteries are the best. Our lost and Found is currently filled with pants. I don't know , I've never seen this happen. I've got skirts, I've got shorts. This is true . Mysteries of every size , each week, this American life , wherever you get your podcast . This episode is sponsored by strawberry dot me . Nigel . Let me ask you a serious question. Okay . Are you where you want to be professionally and financially? Well, in many ways, yes, but of course there's always stuff I could be better at . And I'm not always sure how to get there. One thing I'm learning is that success doesn't just happen , and the most successful people in the world don't figure it all out alone. They have mentors and coaches, people guiding them every step of the way. That's where strawberry. Me coaching comes in. And actually we, were on a road trip recently when you had your first coaching session and we just sat down and talked about it. I got on a computer and I got on time and I met my life coach. So what did you learn? So when it came to the financial stuff. Yeah , I told him about where I had been . I told him I said, you know, a lot of people have a twenty five, thirty year advantage on me. I was talking to him about like a lot of the business plans that I have for the future, you know, and the stuff that I want to do. And we were basically organizing those thoughts, basically starting with a business plan and moving forward. Do you know what I like about Strawberry Duck me is that it really is tailored to what your interests are. So you want to do somethinged more about business planning, financial literacy. I wanted to do something more emotional. This is like such a difference between you and me. So I'm working on team dynamics and being a better team person And there was a really great questionnaire , and I love how personalized it is. And actually just answering those questions got me thinking about stuff I want to work on. Career coaching helps give you clarity, strategy, and accountability towards achieving your goals. Whether it's landing a new job, advancing in your current role, or transitioning to a field you love , you have a dedicated coach supporting you along the way. Go to strawberry. slash ear hustle and get fifty percent off your first coaching session. That's strawberry dot m e slash ear hustle. It's like therapy for your career. Nanj. I have to go look at my action items and get ready for my next coaching session . Listeners, do you want even more ear hustle? And even fewer ads like zero, zipps, nothing, not a If so, subscribe to Earhustle Pl us. Earhustle Plus subscribers get access to ad free episodes and bonus episodes. Our Earhustle Plus episodes are really fun. Subscribers can find out what's happening with people they've heard on previous episodes and they can also send in questions for us to answer. And me and Nigel get to sit here and chop it up with our producer Bruce and just talk about whatever. If you want to hear more of that, subscribe to Earhle Plus at Earh ustles . com slash plus or directly in Apple Podcasts. And thanks for support ing this show. We appreciate y'all . And sending in some provocative questions. Spicy questions . You have these different thoughts that go through your head , you walk in past every day you're seeing and you're like okay, should I should I not? That's Demarian . We met him at the top of the episode. De Marion arrived at San Quentin in twenty twenty three. Something like that. Something like that, yeah. And almost immediately he found out that the guy who had killed his brother Ronnie , was at the same prison. Yeah, a friend of De Marian saw Sadiq on the yard and was like, That's old boy that killed Little Runny. So I mean, Erlon, obviously this set up a very tense situation. No definitely right. What are some of the possibilities? Own s ite so.on As as I see you, I'm gonna take you down . Straight up, no questions asked, none of that. And Demario was probably getting pressure from all over, right? Oh yeah, everybody. I mean, I'm guessing family members also had feelings about this. I'm sure they did , you know, I mean, because that's a that's a situation because in your mind , you have that space where you always want to run across the person that did harm to your family. Yeah. You always want to run across that person . And don't you think there were actually people who weren't even involved in this situation that were kind of excited about it? No, people cheer it on. Like, what are you going to do? He's gonna do this. He's gonna do that because people in prison, look for activities . You know, and somebody always want to be somebody. But also I mean, if he doesn't do something, people are like, You're a coward. Yeah , and that's how it be looked at from everybody , like , oh Damien, he's a buster . You know what I'm saying? Like he's a mark , you know, the person that killed his little brother's walking the yard like right there and he ain't doing shit . That's how they look at him. Now they questioning who he is his, integr ity, you know, the whole nine. But then, you know, like the flip side is that taking revenge on Sadiq obviously isn't going to bring his brother back . And it would drastically change Demarian's sentence, right? I mean, he might never get out of prison. So for Demarian, this dilemma was agonizing. I was really battling with myself . I'm like, What would this do? dude Would this would br justing him back, it won't bring him back. So it was like it wasn't it It wasn't a good feeling. It wasn't something that Yeah let's take a little break, okay? Oof, Erlon . Do you remember what it was like in the room during that conversation ? It was so tense . Yeah, I mean , you know, it seems like De Marian was on his own trial, what he should do, what he shouldn't do. The struggle was so apparent in his voice, his body language This was one of the times where I thought is this really a good idea to do this story . You kind of throw like fluid like little baby powder on it. You get what I'm saying? You know, you got that you think you got that grease virus 'cause it's hot, it's still there . So me going backwards and living if we live in this situation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again . This takes a whole lot. No, I do. I do. Try to even understand. Well y'all don't understand. I can imagine who y'all don't understand . De Marion said that during that time when he was seeing Sadiq on the yard, but hadn't decided what to do about it yet , he really started to unravel . I started doing drugs. I start losing weight because I didn't know how to cope with it. I didn't know how to deal with it. I was just doing everything I could just to avoid it What was your inner thoughts that was pushing you to drugs ? I don't want to be looked at a certain way, and I just went into my cell and I just went downhill . I went downhill . Did you have people in your ears pressing you like , man, you gonna let him be on the yard ? Yeah . And I was getting backlash at people looking at me. I'm a bitch or a mark. My cousins were like, man, fuck that woo . So I took a lot of heat . But other family members on the outside were like, Hey , we need you out here. And it was like, look , what do you want ? What do you want? What do you really want ? I want to go home . And I made that decision right then and there . This is what I want . This is what I want . I think De Marian also knew that in a different situation , Ronnie could have been the one who knocked down Sede. I mean I mean, all of 'em were living that hooded lifestyle and any one of them could have been killed or been the killer . Can you describe yourself at that time what you were like ? Hm remember I was ruthless. I was I was different back then . The way we was living out there, my brother okay, wanna be honest with me. Like he did shit. You know what I'm saying? My brother did shit . So remember, the Marianne knew who Sadiq was and he was really struggling with how to handle it. But Sadiq still didn't know who Demarian was. He was oblivious . Until this one day, when there was this big event at San Quentin, and Sadiq was one of the presenters . He actually got up there , basically told his whole story up there on the on the thing, and I went up to him after that . He kind of like gave me like a half hug, half dap, and it kind of felt funny. De Marian didn't say anything to Sadi, just dapped him up and kept walking. I walked out and I just broke down and everybody like, What's wrong? What's up? And I start crying and I'm just like, man . And I said, I'm like , Bird, like for killing my brother . The next morning, some dude walks up to Sadiq and says, Hey, you know that guy Damar ? Word is, you killed his brother. Yeah, I mean, the word was really getting around. I'm like, yeah, what's up? He's like, man, he said you weren't here for killing his brother. My heart just stopped right then and there . I'm panicking like I don't know what to do. Demarian walked right past the deck on the yard. He didn't even stop to look at him. Just kept walking. He's like hugging people saying what's up and as he said what's up, they all looking up towards me. I'm like, o shhit the whole yard no . So now I'm really like anxious and panicking , just waiting, just pacing . The next morning I go down to the old media center, I start cleaning up and then Sammy walks in . Listeners might remember Sammy from a couple of recent episodes . He's an intern on the ear hustle inside team, but he's also a pure support worker. We talked about those on the last episode. Yeah, so those are the guys who are trained inside prison to help other incarcerated guys out with stuff that they're dealing with . And often it's pretty straightforward like, you know, accessing programs in prison, dealing with paperwork , but sometimes it can get pretty thorny. And this was definitely one of those times. I asked Sami like, Hey, Sammy, can you do me a favor? He'd like, yeah, what's up? I'm like, I'm going through something. And he's like, what is it? I'm like you know, NO . NO is a nickname for Demarian. It stands for New Orleans where he used to live. He's like, Yeah, I'm like, Well, I'm here for shooting and killing Ronnie, which is his brother . It turned out De Marion had also gone to Sammy, asking for support . De Marion told me, Hey , I think the person that took my brother's life is on this yard . The Marianne was really just dealing with those emotions that anybody would have . Losing a family member, knowing the person that's responsible is right here . So I just was there to listen to make sure like how is he planned on responding ? I'm like, okay, can you create a dialogue for us? Because I want to be able to talk to him. So he's like, yeah, I can do that for you. Sammy set up a meeting. He brought Demarian down to the media lab, and when they got there, Sadiq was already there pacing nervously waiting for them. As soon as I walk in there I just put my hands up like Brother, I'm not here to hurt your family , hurt you anymore, like I come in peace and he's like I do too. His face was like tears , distraught , anger, pain. Like you can see all that in his eyes. He's like, just look at my face . Just look at my face he just was just drilling me about stuff and I just sat in the fire. As he was just talking, I just set in the fire . Me and him really sat down and had hard the hearts and talked with each other like really, really really,, really , really. When Braceley both started crying, we put it all on the table and I felt Timmy felt me . They talked for a while and Demarian was like , let's end this . He felt like he didn't deserve forgiveness. And I said, No, ask me, I'm gonna forgive you by I told him to do that . Because I needed heal. The only way to heal is to forgive . That's the only way to heal like you can't without like without the you do you see it from Sadiqs or anyone who's incarcerated for , you know, for a murder or anything that it's technically impossible for that person to ask for forgiveness. I understand. I understood where he was coming from, but at the same time I knew that at the same time he needed that too . He needed that he needed that . So having feeling of forgiveness for Sadiq, how does it feel inside for you? It brought me a sense of healing too to where I needed that. I was able to unsuppress some of the stuff that I had . Back there I really literally was hurting myself because I didn't know how to deal with it like Literally hurting myself. Yeah . And is that over now for you? It's over . I can actually say that . I can actually say that that is a hover . When I heard the story , I had a lot of respect for you because you just didn't respond how we would normally respond. You know what I'm saying? I could have. You could have. Easy. The decision that you made is a big decision. You know what I'm saying? And the hardest part is not to be influenced by others to respond . I have immense respect for you . I don't think I could be the same . I don't know . Don't have to react to this, but I'm just imagining if I was in a situation where I had to see somebody that killed a sibling , I don't know how there could be any other feeling except this can't stand . I mean, don't you think that's maybe a natural human way to feel? Yeah . But where does your rage go and your frustration and like that this isn't right? Does that eventually go away . I get that you're changed , but how do you get rid of that ? Take your time. I guess realizing some of the hurt that I've caused too , but having hurt people that probably they feel the same way We definitely commend both of y'all, man and take our hats off y'all for even having this conversation . How comfortable have y'all been in this situation . At first, it was like, Dang, what am I doing ? And then it was more like, okay , I got to know this person . Music really brung us together a lot too . We was actually just doing when y'all came in, we were actually just doing a beat in there together so I remember walking in to do the first of the interviews for this story and I saw Sidique sitting at the computer kind of laughing with this guy and I was like, no, there's no way that's Demarian. I mean they can't be hanging out like this . But they are . I mean, it's been about six months since Sadeek and DeMarion had that meeting, and the two of them are cool . In fact, Sadik's been teaching De Marion how to make beats? Yeah , and actually most of the music in this episode was made by Sadiq, some with the help of Demarion. I did everything . , I hope you wait. Wait, wait, we ain't going to do that. I was mixing. I was doing that. So I used to get worse and credit. So you said you'll be trash . Super trash . Did your relationship evolve around music now? Yeah, yeah, that's our connection. That's the way through healing. So when you're doing stuff together, do all the other things fall away ? Yeah . Erlin, I mean , I think this is an amazing story , but what really has been challenging me, and I could go as far as saying what's been vexing me is I really want to understand their relationship. Like what do they need from each other? What do they want from each other? And I think it's really hard for them to express that. And I actually feel like this is a situation where unless you are one of the active participants , you can never really understand it. What is it that you get from each other that makes this relationship work? Like what have you learned about yourself or have you learned about what it means to be a human being . We can forgive and we can heal . So what does that like for you, what does healing mean , do you think? Not hurting remorse No one's true feelings . Has the hurting stopped or is it in the process process . I've been able to process and heal a little more. Yes, I have. Yes . What would you or would you tell somebody who is really hurting and doesn't know how to deal with it? What would you tell them they could do to help themselves? I will tell them that this process is not going to be easy not at all. This journey is going to be tough , but it can be done . Yeah . And it has to start somewhere And then it's kind of building something different so maybe we get out and we can show Oakland something different . That's really what it's kind of about for me right now . Because I was a big gang member out there, so I know if we get out and I get to the streets and we're standing next to each other and people see that . People would be like, Hey , maybe it changed the whole little cycle that's going on in Oakland right now . Could you imagine at a different time in your life not who you are now but in the past that you could have done not to your brother, but to another person what Sadiq did . Do you see yourself at all in his behavior? Yeah , yeah . Yeah Yeah . Yes. And do you think that has anything to do with this relationship that you have with him seeing yourself in a different way and forgiving yourself for things that you may have done . And maybe that's what draws you together . Yeah . And now thinking of it that way. Yeah Let's say Sadiq is going up for parole in twenty twenty seven . Can you see yourself in that boardroom supporting him for release? Yep . Yep. Yep . I taught him. I want him to get out there. I want him to go live his family. I want him to go be with his daughter. I want him to go live. I want him to go do that. I want him to go do that . I want him to get that opportunity because I know I see a different person . I won't say I understand but I understand a little bit. You know what I mean? I got one last question . Okay in just one word or three words, one to three words . What is it that you want from Demarian ? Honesty . Yeah, just to be honest, like if it's something that's ever bothering him or anything he might be going through, I'd just rather him be honest. So is that also a way of saying that you want to be able to hear all the pain and anger he has towards you and not hold back? Definitely. After all of this, can you use an emotion word to explain how you feel? Relief ? Is that an emotion ? Yeah , I can breathe a little better