Personal Stories of Infidelity and Healing

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Go to fetchpet dot com slash save right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet dot com slash save This program is both dedicated to the faithful and presented to the fal A few weeks ago, I was zoning out, scrolling through Instagram, dinner recipes, museum pictures, selfies And then I saw something that shook me to my core cheating Had me around your whole family playing house, gotot cold feet Holding you down through all your horrible mood swings and treatment toward me during your basketball season, and now you don't know if you can be monogamous. Rapper Megan Stallion said her boyfriend, basketball player Clay Thompson, cheated on her. Bitch, I need a real break after this one. Bye y'all. N The group chats activated immediately. My friends and I were stunned, shocked and then enraged The thing is We don't actually know these people It's not the first time I've gotten worked up about a stranger's cheating scandal Ariana Matoics and Tom Sandival. Fuck yourself with the fucking cheese grer. Hallie Berry and Eric Bonet. This is the failure of my life I love this man I thought I gave the best I had to give. Jay Z and Beyonce. Are you cheing, cheing, are you cheing on me? Even random Reddit situations that may be made up will still definitely raise my blood pressure I'm John Gwin Hill, and this week on Explaining to M from Vox, the lowdown on our strong feelings about infidelity and how the rules may be changing. So why does cheating piss us off so bad Even when it's not happening to us That's the question I asked sexologists and dating coach, Maisha Battle. I think specifically with high profile couples, it's because we want to see them succeed Or we're excited by the prospect of the drama that unfolds from a cheating story like the cooldplay executive cheating scandal. at these You're okay? Oh what? Either they're having an affair or they's just very shy We quickly want to identify who the villain is Who's been hurt and then rally around the person that we want to support in that situation. Often it's very cut and dried. If you cheated, you're a bad person. If you were cheated on you're a good person, and that's not obviously always the case, but because cheating happens so much, I think that's a really quick assumption that we can make and then kind of jump to our own conclusions and want to jump to the aid of the person who's been cheated on and then Of course, jump on the person who has cheated Do we know why people cheat Is there research on whyy people do this, that explains this behavior peopleeople cheat for so many reasons from boredom to insecurity in the relationship, to wanting to exert power or revenge in a relationship. I really love the book The State of Affairs by Esther Perll. Often, when you are attracted by the gaze of another, it isn't just because you want to leave the person that you are with But it is because you want to leave the person that you have yourself become She really talks about the importance of delving into What the cheating meant for the person who cheated. What did this affair mean for you Were you thinking about us? Did you hope I would find out? Did you think about the children? and what the impact was on the person who was cheated on? These questions are actually going calm you And they give you a different sense of power over your life and over your relationship. If you can't really understand both sides of that and give space and process both then it's not likely that you're going to get to a happy outcome on the other side of cheating, which is why it is one of the main reasons why people split up. It's a huge fracture in trust and to rebuild that means that you have to do the work to understand why did this happen in the first place Cheating is a choice. Monogamy is a choice. non monogamy is a choice So when people are making these choices in relationship, they have consequences and you have to be able to have conversations about why and how you repair from that Yeah, can we talk about the non monogamy piece, I think, especially Ethhical non monogamy, It's a phrase that's used more and more. It's tossed around quite a bit peoplee who are non monogamous cheat as well. Oh yeah, Yes. Because at the core of cheating is betrayal. So when I work with non monogamous couples or people that are exploring non monogamy, one of the first things that I do is talk about whether or not they want to create relationship agreements. Some people do Some people don't. and the people who don't mayaybe you would identify with a more relationship anarchy style of relationship as opposed to someone who is wanting something that is very codified and making agreements that people say they're going to adhere to Hey, we're going to be open, but you can only have sex with people who are not in our friend group and only one time, right? That would be an example of having relationship agreements, whereas relationship anarchy is like, I'm going to do my own thing We're going to see each other when we see each other. You know, there's some intentionality about that, but it's not necessarily that you have these structures around who can do what with whom Have you ever been cheated on? I have been cheated on. Yeahah And actually kind of a similar hate to compare myself It' to Mean Stallion and Clay Thompson but This person cheated, we were living together. It was uncovered on Valentine's Day. It was pretty rough And The way that he sort of told me that he had started seeing somebody was by saying Well, I'm not sure if I want monogamy rightight And so that was a piece that came up in the Meggan the Stallion post on Instagram. And I totally related to that. And I do think that there's definitely a person who is trying to figure out whether they can handle monogamy or non monogamy, and they find themselves in a situation where Oh shit, you know, I can't handle monogamy, right? There are people for whom that happens, of course. But are there people that use non monogamy as an excuse for their behavior? Absolutely For anyone who's listening, who's going through this, who's gone through this What are some first steps towards healing? It is a trauma. And I think recognizing it and labeling it as such is a Great first step. It's not just something that happened in your relationship. It has an impact on you. It may have an impact on whether the relationship continues You know, in my case, it was my living situation, you know, I couldn't stay there You know, it impacts so many things and you're feeling all of that in your nervous system It can create a PTSD response. It can certainly diminish your feelings of trust and safety in relationships of all kinds So really having a lot of support during this time, whether that's family and community that just takes you in no questions asked, like mind it or friends saying, you know, I've been through the same thing and whatever you need, let me help. like my friend coming with garbage bags to just dump all my stuff and get me out of the house. Or you know, starting therapy when you're ready. Yeah, it sometimes takes a village to get through this. And I think that's actually really important to remember because most people will feel shame. having gone through this experience. I think on both sides, you know, if you're not a complete monster You do feel ashamed of being a cheater on some level. and That is an opportunity for healing as well. So I don't want to forget those folks that like it's important to think about why you did what you did and what help you can get to make sure that you don't inflict that harm on other partners in the future. I think for a long time, the definition of cheating has been pretty straightforward Oh, you're dating someone who is not your partner. You're having sex with someone who is not your partner But I think the internet and our online lives have even shaped infidelity differently. Has the definition of cheating changed? The definition hasn't changed. I think that is still very much aligned with what we expect. It's a betrayal. It's a romantic betrayal The mode has changed. The modes, I guess I should say And things that we don't even really think about because they're so second nature to us, specifically related to technology, can cause issues in relationships And that's why I'm a big proponent of people talking about what their definition of monogamy is. If that's your expectation I think now more than ever, it's important to talk about what it means have fidelity in your relationship so that you can then define infidelity with a partner So You know everything from following exs on social media to maybe you had some subscriptions to only fans before you got into a committed relationship What do you do with those? Do you continue? Is that okay? In some relationships, it would be fully above board and in others, it will not be. And so if you continue those behaviors, and your partner finds out that may be something that leads to feelings of betrayal So you can avoid that by being honest and having a conversation about, hey, this is what monogamy means to me These are the things that are really important for me to feel trust and safety in the relationship. What about you? The definition of monogamy is changing and so is the definition of cheating That's next Support for this show comes from Quince You make difficult choices each and every day So why does your outfit need to be one of them Instead, you can try effortless, comfortable, sleek and well put together clothes with the help of Quince. Quintince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think one hundred percent European linen shorts and shirts from thirty four dollars, lightweight, breathable and comfortable, but still look put together. And clean one hundred percent pima cotton teas with a softness that has to be felt Everything is priced fifty percent to eighty percent less than what you'd find at similar brands. Our colleague Andrew Melnizic has gotten some quints. So Quintinces recently sent me their organic comfort stretch chore jacket. I got it into the tobacco color It's not too heavy. it's not too light I've now worn it to a few basketball games, a couple concerts, a few dinners And even just meeting up with some friends. You can refresh your spring wardrobe with Qintince. Go to quintince d. com slash explain it for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's QuIincE dot com slash explain it to get free shipping and three hundred sixty five day returns Qs d. com slash explain it I scraped my car in the parking garage. I was worried that it could be a long process to take care of it Like a landscapper's first day trimming a hedge m I have definitely already been here Now is it left, right or right, left mayaybe I'll cut a path out and find my way back later But it wasn't like that. I filed a claim in under two minutes on the GaIiko app and they handled it from there. It was taken care of almost as quickly as it happened. It feels good to get help, quQuick. It feels good to GaeiCo I'm JQ, back with more Explain it to me Okay, so I told my friends I was working on this episode about cheating and all the different ways people define it. And I was like Can you believe some people think liking an Instagram story counts as infidelity? They weren't shocked at all In fact, a few of them thought I was being naive To get fact checked there, I called up Zoe You. She's about a decade younger than me, and she recently pinned an article about something called micro cheating for the Atlantic. Just like regular cheating, micro cheating is sort of nebulous and really hard to pin down because What goes for cheating in like one relationship might not actually count as cheating in another one. And I think it's very much dependent on the two people in the relationship to litigate what the proper boundaries of behavior are. One person might think that flirting with someone over text is cheating, another person might not. And this varies, I think, a lot from relationship to relationship. So is it purely digital thing It's not purely digital But I think also just because of how tech driven A lot of our relationships now are a lot of these small behaviors that might constitute a breach in like the exclusivity of a relationship are very much digital So this can mean having online dating account or subscribing to someone's only fans. And then there are these emerging very little behaviors like hitting a like on someone's Instagram post or you know sliding up on someone's story, sliding up story Sliding up on someone's story. And I think this is like something that As someone who's like firmly in like the Gen Z cohort I was explaining to like one of my older millennial friends just how much meaning that fused into something as tiny as a story like where a lot of Genzers And even my friends like will sit around and be like, what does it mean that he liked my story? Like what does it mean that he like sllit up and responded with like so and so emoji. And I think it's because A lot of the times the first ways that we were like socialized with each other, at least in like the Gen Z demographic was actually through like tag You know, okay, it's interesting because on one hand, I think it's very easy to sort of roll your eyes that like really, you think liking a story, you think liking a profile But you know, I'm not above. you see someone cute and you're like, let me go back to that post from like a year ago, hit like and you know, see what's happening. You know, I think we've all received the like little looking sideways emoji on a cute story on a picture of ourselves we posted But It also seems like a lot to track. Does this mean people are tracking their partner's likes and other online activity? Yeah, I think like one defefining feature of micro treating is how one sided it is where people are very much in an investigative mindset, where You have all of these reels where girls are like. Ladies, if he liked another woman's post, it's because he liked what he saw. It's about respect. You're saying not only to me, but to the world, I think this girl's hot and I'm letting her know. You have no sexual discipline, that you can't control your desires, that what you have is not enough, that you're always seeking for more. That's a weak show of character What's really interesting about micro cheating is that people are attempting to assign meaning to something that is actually a lot more complex And I don't deny there is information that you can glean from someone's online behavior and the way that they present themselves publicly on a profile, but also the human reality is much more complicated and much more hairy. And I think one aspect of micro cheing is that its sort of boils down. All of the human contradictions and irregularities and things that you might understand about a person into these very reductive Data points. What's interesting is that the entire premise of microchreating is sort of couched on The assumption that if you snoop and you find something, this is kind of like uncorrupted evidence. Yeah, how much of this is actually less about the relationship itself and more about embarrassment. Like everything is very public facing. And I think of conversations with my friends where it's just like I really like this guy. I hope he doesn't embarrass me. I don't know, it feels like It's like a Sabrina Carpenter's song, right? Yeahase please please. You might not actually object to your boyfriend liking some girl's post. What you actually might be concerned about is the message that it's sending to this person given the social meaning that we've now assigned collectively to likes and comments and follows And so you might not actually think, oh, like my boyfriend might be attracted to this person because he's following her on Instagram And it might actually be the fear that like how is this going to reflect on me? How is this going to embarrass me? And how is it going to affect the way that other people see? My relationship and whether or not my significant other is sufficiently loyal Is it possible to have a full online life without micro cheating? I mean Is it reasonable to expect people not to post or share memes or do whatever it is we do online if we also want to be in a relationship. I think the bar for exclusivity has gotten inordinately high to the point where people are demanding an exclusivity of Eotion of attraction and You can't actually like share a laugh or share the private moment with anyone outside of this romantic relationship, which is supposed to be at the center of your life And I think this is actually super damaging because M sort of closes off all of these Really, really great relationships, friendships that or outside of a romantic concept, but you can't really reach for if you think that you know, every kind of small behavior might be potentially suspect. Dang, does this mean that like in order to find love, I'm going to have to stop commenting, Need that on Michael B. Jordan's Instagram photos. L In my opinion, by all means go ahead because this might vary from person to person The reasons we fear cheating reveal a lot about us So do the reasons we cheat Up next The other side of the story Hey everybody, It's Megan. I am bringing a touch moreore of the Beautiful game live to New York City. and I want to see you there july seventeenth, I'm sitting down with a very special guest for a live taping right in the middle of the World Cup. Doors are gonna open at six thirty and we're gonna keep the party going with a little reception after. come watch us do the thing live in Manhattan, presented by Norwegian Cruise line, grab your tickets at boxmedia dot com slash Megan Again, grab your tickets at boxmedia. com slash Megan Cub live taping y'all. C explain it to me We believe that journalism can help make people's lives better That's a core part of our mission here at Box We try to take the issues that matter to you in your life and give you the information you need to make sense of them That kind of reporting takes time and care and resources. If you believe in that mission, please help us continue to make this work by becoming a Vox member Right now you can get thirty percent off your first year. Just head dvox. com slash members to learn more No. This is explain it to me. I'm JQ We asked you for your stories about cheating And we heard from a listener named Vicki Etchison, who navigated infidelity with her husband I'd been married at that point for about twenty five years. wasn't an amazing marriage, but it wasn't terrible My husband at the time was a good man and an excellent father. but yeah, we just had a lot of tricky things happening in our lives My mother in law and nephew had just moved in with us because of an unexpected death in the family. My mom was very sick and I was a caregiver for her We had one child that was getting ready to graduate high school and move out of state and another one that was navigating the nightmare that is middle school And on top of all that, we were having some financial issues. And so I was already working in a homeless shelter and I had to add a part time job and like just a retail job on top of that That job turned out to be an escape It was like every time she clocked in, she was walking into a different world. I made some friends and there was one woman in particular that I started hanging out with a lot after work And when I would hang out with her, you know, we didn't talk about dying parents or teenage children or financial struggles. we gossiped about our coworkers and we you know complained about customers Eventually that friendship grew beyond work We had been friends for four or five months and we'd gotten to a place where we were doing things like snuggling while we were watching movies. and she would like massage my shoulders when my neck was hurting And I think if she had been a man, these would have been huge red flags for me. But she was a woman. and at that point, I had no idea that I was gay. Like it had never occurred to me to even consider it. L I was married to a man. And so none of those things were red flags to me. And then eventually the snuggling It just became more and more until it became a sexual relationship D that relationship makeake you feel when you were in it Yeah, it's a tough question. It's hard to say how I felt in the moment out loud becausecause in the moment, it felt really good. I felt desired and but at the same time I was able, my brain was completely relaxed and And honestly, it didn't I didn't feel the pain of it until like only two months into the affair part of things, my ex husband found out and confronted me with it All of the pain and the guilt and the reality of what was happening hit me just like a tidal wave all at once I was just in a panic because as stressful as my life was I just felt like now I'm gonna to lose everything. I'm gonna lose my kids and I'm going to lose my job and he was my best friend. like we We grew up as young adults together. He was Yeah, it was it was absolutely Terrifying to me But ultimately I knew that I was never going to be content in a sexual relationship with a man again. and he knew right away that it was not Justin the infidelity that caused everything, But he knew that he wasn't ever going to Get that trust back And so we just knew that it just wasn't going to be worth trying to hold on to Thank you for sharing this, you know, it sounds It sounds so hard because there's this relationship. You're also finding out more about yourself and your sexuality You know, you're dealing with family What's the aftermath been like for you Probably about the first year was really rough. I lost a lot of relationships. My sister was very close to my ex husband and her two children were very close to him. And so they cut me out and my children were really upset. But now you know it's seven years later, almost eight years later, and I have rebuilt most of the relationships Things are great with my kids, and even my ex husband now is with a woman that can actually appreciate the fact that he likes to work out all the time, which I never could. And we're still good friends. you know, we we're getting ready to plan our daughter's college graduation together and we you know putut together our son's twenty first birthday. like so we're still doing all of the big events together And Vicky fell in love again too with another woman Three years ago, they got married She still struggles to forgive herself for what happened. I still feel the guilt of it. Honestly every day. Why do you think that is I don't know. I because there's Like if something happens to the kids or even to my ex husband, I feel like I wouldn't have done this. if I wouldn't have had the affair This wouldn't be happening. You know, the kids wouldn't be struggling with whatever it is. I just I take that guilt on and blame it on me having the affair and I know that it's not real But I just I can't seem to let go of it. And I've been through therapy for years But my brain just wants to keep going back to But if you wouldn't have done this, This bad thing wouldn't have happened. Definitely if I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't do it that way. I would have some hard conversations. But also both of our lives are in a much better place now than they would have been if we would have kept trudging through And that's our show We're doing an episode about the joys of home maintenance. Is there something you tried to fix and you wish you didn't? How's that TikTok tutorial working out for you Tell us about it. one eight hundred six one eight eight five four five or email ask vox at vox dot com Also a quick plug, if you like what you hear, consider becoming a Vox member. You get perks like ad free podcasts and you get to help us make the show Head over to vox. com slash members to learn more