Checking Empathy and Internal Compulsions

Welcome to the Feeling Good podcast Have you ever wondered why you keep feeling the same way Even when you're trying to change Anxiety, habits, relationship struggles sometometimes it can feel like nothing really sticks I'm therapist Kevin Cornelius, and each week I sit down with Dr. David Burns one of the world's greatest authorities on cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of Team CBT This podcast is all about practical tools that actually work Clear techniques you can use to overcome anxiety and depression Iprove your relationships and build real confidence No fluff. No vague advice just effective tools that can help you change the way you think The way you feel and the way you live Let's get started Hell Kevin Thank you, David. Hello to you. I like that. that was musical today. Yeah I of some new twists on it. So so it doesn't all sound like hello Ronda Oh yeah. I love it. They Yeah Yeahah, tell us I think we've got two exciting podcasts this week and next week. the the highest level of podcast tell us what we' what we're in for Kevin Yeah, we're in for something really special. Episode five hundred five today and then five hundred six next week and this is going to be personal work that you and Jill did with Ruben. and It's going to be all about working with performance anxiety in real time. In this live work from a recent Tuesday group, the two of you had the opportunity to work with Ruben who's a highly capable and thoughtful clinician brought a struggle that many therapists quietly share. intense performance anxiety in evaluative situations, especially in the presence of authority figures or people he deeply admires like You and Chil And what made this work especially powerful is that Ruben was actively experiencing anxiety in the moment allowing you to Qote, get in the car with him, end quote, rather than talk about the problem abstractly Awesome. What kind of car was it I take a bug, a VW. Oh yeah. yeah, I remember that now. you know, we're being silly, but yeah, this was great work with with Ruben. And I think when you do your personal work It's a vital part of your training. And I think if you haven't done it, then you you're always be missing your soul. a as a clinician, your deepest understanding And so today we're going to do part one with Ruben, which is the T EAM, that's the T and the E, the testing and the empathy And then next week we'll do the paradoxical agenda setting. That's the A, which is the assessment of resistance or paradoxical agenda setting And then m equals methods But I also want to say that this work shop The work with Ruben was shown the afternoon of a full day workshop on self defeating beliefs And and you could also conceptualize Ruben's problem Yes the approval addiction I need approval to feel happy and worthwhile because one of his negative thoughts is David is critical of me or someone I approve of who I admire then that means I'm worthless or a fraud. That type of really harsh language directed against himself and he's struggled with those thoughts and feelings since childhood And they've been very real and very very I wouldn't say disabling to him because he's been functioning with them. very distracting and really robbing him of joy and confidence And And I think you're going to just totally love Ruben and and love these two two sessions. Anything else before we dive in Kevin, I think you said it all beautifully. Let's get I'm excited to hear this This first half, the testing and empathy, so let's take it away So Rubin has on the brief mood survey, Zeros on most of the depression items, just a one on somewhat low self esteem otherwise zero. So just a one on the depression scale. and a zero on the suicidal scale And Rubin has four, just four ones on the anxiety scale. So a total of four So just somewhat anxious parade and proress And then just a one on the anger scale. So just checked off somewhat annoyed So not a lot of symptoms, right? Just a one end depression. or on anxiety and a one on anger And we'll ask Rubin more about that And on the positive feelings scale, Rubin two' pretty much down the row. So moderately on all these. So like a twenty out of what would be a possible forty on the positive feeling scale. So definitely room for improvement in terms of feeling really great. It's just kind of moderate on all of them And then he didn't fill out the relationship satisfaction scale Was there some reason you didn't fill out the relationship scale Rubin Yeah, only because I just saw the email that I was supposed to fill out a BMS as I was signing ono the meeting today. And so I was kind of scrambling to do it. I didn't want to be linked to the meeting so I didn't fill out the last section. Oh sure. Sorry about that. You want to fill it out really fast. It probably take fifteen seconds and could be useful information. Yeah So David, put the name of an important relationship in your life. you just want Ruben to pick any relationship? Yeah know, you can choose any relationship or people in general or the group tonight or any way you want to set that up, Ruben. Okay. I'll pick my thoughtot Oga And for one communication openness, I would say moderately satisfied, five resolving conflicts, I'd say very satisfied six degree of affection, caring Merately satisfied S intimacy and closeness moderately satisfied by overall satisfaction and moderately satisfied byF So it's five, ten, fifteen, twenty six out of thirty I sorry twentyenty six. ye. And u I'm just trying to figure out if we've got that that right. There's because I don't see if a scale in front Yes, David. Yes, sorry, the total is the highest score is a six and there's five items. So you're exactly on target The denominator is a thirty Oh yeah. R right Yeah, so that's actually a pretty high sc Yeah. What it illustrates is, you know, a little improvement in four of those five categories So seem right. I would say so Very good over all Maybe some reason for imprisonment in some guaries. And then I notice that the yourour scores tonight Yeah yes, s are much improved over the scores on your daily mood log, which of course you filled out a couple of off weeks ago And Can you just tell us a little about that? because at that point you were feeling Well, you you skipped to depression. I don't know if that was intentional or just overlooking it, but The anxiety at that point was seventy out of one hundred, which is pretty high and the shame was thirty And then feelings of inferiority and inadequate and defectiveness and so forth was eighty. that's pretty Pretty intense And the feeling rejected was forty And then feeling embarrassed and foolish and self conscious What was the seventy that's pretty darn strong and then Frustrated and struck was only thirirdty and then resentful And upsetence thirty, which is not, you know, real real intense, but would you say that some of these feelings have improved for that Yeah. well, so the daily moodlog I was fitting out for a specific situation. and I think The anxieties that I'd love to work on are seem to be at least for me very situational and And you know, happy to go into that more. I would say right now, I'm not feeling very anxious, but occasionally, especially if I'm in a context where I'm supposed to perform in a certain way in front of people that I admire or authority figures or large crowds, I get a lot more anxious I know that there's a big group. and as I'm talking now, I'm starting to get more anxious, thinking about all of the people listening but I would say This feels a little bit different of a context And so my anxiety isn't quite as severe as in the daily moodlog Hey, well, tell us more about your anxiety. you were Oh We care, you know greatly about you and then your topic of you know, getting anxious in groups and public speaking anxiety courses Near and dear to my heart So I'm really eager to to hear what you have to say and what you've been thinking and what you've been feeling and experiencing Yeah, thank you. So I think especially in situations where I'm in front of a group of people and especially including somebody I really admire, David Burns, for example, or like a professor that I'm hoping to a good relationship with, I start to feel pretty intense anxiety and especially if there's a performative aspect to it, the event that I chose in a Daily Moodlog was leading a small group under David Supervision. and so I put a lot of pressure on myself to perform and have this notion that if I don't perform, bad things are going to happen and you know this person that I admire will reject me and I need to be extra careful what I say and make sure that I do everything right or I'll be rejected and that will make me worthless And so I'm getting into some of the thoughts already. There's this fear of failing in front of really admire authority figures and speaking sorry Go ahead I was just going to say there's a speaking element to it as well where as anxiety increases And it's happening a little bit now. I'm searching for words and I start to blank out And there are these long gauses where I kind of freeze and choke a little bit and I can feel the heat rising into my face and the butterflies, my stomach sensation And then it's like Oh, you must pick the right words, but then the right word doesn't come. And then I'm making these long pauses and then I'm worried that people are going to get bored while I'm searching for the right word And you might be able to tell that it's happening right now, which is probably appropriate I'm really fascinated by by what you're saying, Rubin, and of course, I'm writing everything down And I assume that everyone is writing down what you're saying. So we'll have some specifics to to work with, but you You said that one of the thoughts that comes into your mind is that you must speak the right words And if I don't speak the right words, then the people will get bored and reject me or what is what will happen sometimes yeah, either people will get bored and reject me or realize that I'm a fraud and they'll see that worthless H your s a little bit. Yeah, sorry. I think sometimes When I get anxious, I speak faster and then I forget the words and I speak slow. People will get bored and reject me People will realize that I'm a fraud and that I'm worthless And all of the above, I believe, right? P And so to what extent Might you be be feeling this right at this moment? Right now, I would say probably sixty five seventy because I' anxious be If If I could clarify what I heard Ribon saying, which I totally understand and relate to, tellell me if I'm summarizing this correctly, Ribon is It did come up now in this context, but in the beginning, you were saying, I don't feel it as much now because there's not an expectation that I'm teaching something or that I'm supposed to say something brilliant or articulate, or that you're all supposed to learn from me. So when he's doing something performative where there's clearly an evaluative component to it, you're doing it well or not well, right or not right is when the anxiety is really high and being a sm leader is one of those instances for you. whereereas this is in a way more a moment of vulnerability, right? There isn't really a right way for you to quite perform in this situation. And so my understanding is that's why you are feeling a bit less Anxious. In this situation than you would be when you would be leading, teaching, that kind of thing. Is that tell me, am I getting you right? Yeah, one hundred percent. So the expectation to perform is like a big amplifier. That makes it even more intense Yeah, exactly Be beautifully expressed And when you have that thought that I must speak the right words or you must speak the right words, how How believable is that from zero to one hundred? In those moments, it feels one hundred percent true. Yeah child And then If I don't, people We'll get bored. Yeah, we'll get bored or'll judge me. We'll get bored is that's pretty high Probably ninety percent not ninety percent and you just added a new one in there they'll u they will judge me R? Yeah That's right. And how strong is that belief? In the moment, I would say it's ninety, ninety percent. And they'll realize I'm a fraud and worthless And how strong is that one? Yeah also probably ninety percent And can I just ask you to No I don't want to get overly numerical because I realize this is your heart and your life But how strongly you believe those thoughts in this situation right now like I must speak the right words. Yeah It's not quite as strong, but it's definitely up there maybe seventy percent Okay kind great in then And then if I don't, people will get bored. Yeah, seventy five probably. And then And then no. They'll judge me Probably eighty percent rightight now That's still pretty high even here. St St pretty high even here That I'm a fraud and that I'm worthless. probablyrobably sixty percent R now. I would say the sort of pererformative scenario probably higher by more like ninety percent Oh yeah, sure Sure. and then U And then the way you're feeling right now is, you know, sixty five to seventy percent anxious. Soir Yeah, I think that Yeah. Well, I think less anxious when you guys are talking and more anxious when I start to talk more It ebbs and flows a little bit. overall Oh sixty sixty five have roller coaster ride Exactly. And then How ashamed are you feeling? Right now, I think I'm getting a little more comfortable U maybe too strong, maybe thirty percent You tell How about that inferior or inadequate or or effective or incompetent Probably fifty percent. Yeah And then how rejected do do do you feel zero percent Well, that's nice I reject you M all embarrassment And foolish, are you feeling? probablyroably sixty percent. Yeah. So that that's way up there And then yeah, that's high. Any discouragement? I don't think so. I think that's zero. Yeah, great And how about frustrated her stuff Maybe ten percent. Okay, so that that's a little that's pretty low And then how resentful or upset. zero percent? Oh, that's interesting. So so a little of this is going on right here rightight here in the group, I'm gonna pass the baton over to you, Jill for for a bit, but that was It beautifully stated I got it And thank you for that. I have one last question before Chill takes over Hotel Sheill often says that Shame requires secrecy Yeah. You're being quite open at the moment is that Part of why some of your feelings are not as intense as you think I'm just speculating it might not be valid. No, I think that's exactly right. comoming into this planning to be very open about the anxieties, I think in those kind of performative situations I'm not necessarily open or vulnerable about anxieties and then I'm on top of that, I'm trying to conceal that I'm feeling anxious and want to appear that I'm in control So I think that's definitely part of it how it is that to control it and to be cool and awesome Exactly, ye, ye, exactly. And I have noticed that's a little bit of self disclosure when I'm in those scenarios like saying, oh, I'm actually feeling pretty nervous right now and be really helpful to alleviate some of the. Yeah that's a great. I had one last question before Phil Take it take, it takes the reins here Has this been with you all your life or since you were a little boy or was there a particularly traumatic event that might have You know U Hiliating for you? I think to some degree, I think the desire to impress and the fear of disappointing authority figures or people I admire that I think has been with me as long as I can remember I think the public speaking in front of people got noticeably worse in college after I Gad wrong answer in front of a hundred, two hundred people and was very embarrassed by that. And I think participating in crowds or speaking in front of people got worse after that Okay ye Yeah what can you just tell us a little bit about what that was and what was the group? Was it a class You gave a wrong answer to a question or something? Yeah, the clos of, I think play one hundred, two hundred people They have these kind of poll questions and I was the only one to raise my hand and they basically each option they say, whoever thinks there's this option, raise your hand. I very confidently raise my hand for the wrong answer And I was the only one in the whole room who raised my hand. and I was sitting in the front row. And the professor looked at me and said, Oh, I admire your confidence another option came up and everyone else raised their hands and it turned out the response that I gave was completely wrong like the eyes were on me from everybody else in the class. and W your laughter a reaction from the other students or that it was just mainly something you experienceced? internally. This was a long time ago Honestly, I think before the answer was revealed, I think when the professor said, I admire your confidence, I think that might have been some laughghter there So that might have contributed to my anxious feelings as well, embarrassed feelings. Yeah, sure like he was making fun of your Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. Do you have any memory of what the question was about? That's a good question. I don't know. It was a microbiology and biochemistry class somethinghing related to that D Well I'll let you take over here a little bit if you're ready to jump in, Jill Sure, yeah. Well, Ribin. Yeahah, I just want to say I'm glad that you're Watching out and sharing this part of yourself with us. I have known you for a little while now in the Tuesday group. and would never have guessed that you were socially anxious, would never have picked up on that on So I'm also sharing that with you and with the group too, just from that perspective of we can struggle so much and silence and come across as confident and looks like we command the room and inside be feeling so anxious and vulnerable and worried and so I'm not happy to know that you've been struggling. I'm honored that you're sharing this really vulnerable kind of private side of yourself with us. And I feel sad to know that in small groups in places where you're ing or asked to perform in some way and be evaluated, there's a right and or wrong, but even in a situation like this, right where you're being put on the spot and a center of attention, right that you can feel anxious and worried and feel like you're grasping at straws for what to say and have that mind going blank feeling that many people have when they're intensely anxious. butterflies in your stomach. and then of course when you start to notice that you're anxious, then you're distracted by your anxiety and that the cycle kind of intensifies, I'm guessing. Yeah. and internally, you're anxious about the fact that you're anxious. and then externally you said you're worried that other people are bored or that they're judging you, that they're thinking negative thoughts about you like you're a fraud or you're worthless. And so it sounds like you're really feeling very, very judged by others in that situation Yeah And also that I'm wasting people's time. And I think that's a big one too that I didn't mentioning firstly Okay you're wasting people. I deserve to be here as group leader Mmm. Okay that you don't deserve to be here. Yeah. they sound like really painful feelings, it sounds like it really detracts from what could feel like an enjoyable experience of teaching and learning and growing and connecting, but instead you're feeling really stuck in your head and anxious and worried and concerned about how you're coming across to other people. And then maybe I've skipped one important part, which was there was also a piece that you werere talking about when you're interacting with authority figures. So it's also especially worse, it sounds like when you're around people that you really admire or look up to, like David and I'm sure others as well, but this kind of authority figure maybe that you feel even more afraid of failing in that context I've noticed it seems to be especially or more common with male authority figures or male figures that I admire. I'm not sure. I was also initially quite anxious in your small group and I think I go through ups and downs in that context as well. So there are some small groups where I feel relatively confident about the material and maybe I know the people in the group a little bit better and then unless. intensely anxious, I'm able to Ive enjoyed a little bit more . So there's different different levels of comfort that you might feel the more you know someone and feel comfortable with them or feel less worried about them judging you, the easier it will be for you. and then the more unfamiliar the circumstances or the more high level, maybe the audience, right or the person the more you'll feel like you want to Did you want to say something, Davven? I just have a quick question to go back to what I was asking earlier, then I'll go back to your excellent quest Okay, I was ready to pass the baton back to you Do you have the impression? and this is just speculative, We're never going to figure this one out L tonight But do you feel like this insecurity around male authority figures was like based on a relationship with your dad and feeling constantly criticized and came to the conclusion that you weren't good enough and that if you weren't good enough, you wouldn't you would be laughed, which would be some kind of a learned model orr do you under the impression? it's it's maybe Kind of a genetic F. that that perhaps a form of anxiety that you were perhaps born with And my stupid question,. No, I appreciate the question because it is something that I've thought about. and like you said, we'll probably never know, but I think it's probably a combination of those things. I definitely have struggled for a lot of my life with the kind of ceiling that that I wanted my dad to be proud of me and the feeling that It was reallyly anything I could do to to please him. felt like that I was a disappointment. At the same time, I think I do have a genetic predisposition for anxiety in general. D deffinitely have a lot of family members with anxiety. There's also when I talk about these things, there's also thoughts coming up like I shouldn't be talking this way about my dad or my parents It's ungrateful because they love me so much and have done so much for me. So there's definitely a feeling of shame and gratitude when I think about And ye, that you shouldn't be angry with your father And you should have ficious feelings of gratitude. David, can I ask why you ask that? And I'm asking that from an interest perspective not to challenge you. I just haven't heard you ask someone the question of Do you think it was related to your childhood or do you think it was related to genetics? Because so often I hear you saying It doesn't matter what happened in the past. Let's talk about the here and now. So I'm curious what made you ask that question and did you have a hypothesis that you were wanting to check out Well, I don't know the answer to the question. I liked your answer Ruben. both likely both Both variables were were involved in interacting with each other They u But I just think it's a question a lot of people have Mhm And you know, maybe jump to strong conclusions that aren't always necessarily valid or are justified and I'm with you and entirely and we can Wh cares where it came from? We can We can certainly change it But, you know, I'm probably a little bit sympathetic to that dynamic because my dad was a minister And he very much wanted me to grow up and become a minister. And I felt a lot of pressure to do that. And when I was little, I admired him tremendously and just thought he was the you know greatest minister on But unplanned Eth But then, you know, later on we kind of It clashed and that was very very painful for me. but I guess I'm just kind of interested because Rub and I have experienced not the identical feelings that you've had, but a lot of similar T occur kinds of issues. name Thank you Christine Yeah I guess I have a thought also in response to your question, Jill I found David's question very helpful actually from an empathy perspective because those are some thoughts about my dad sometimes come up in these situations and I think I put a couple of those thoughts on the daily mood log. And so I think it was was helpful for my Yeah for connecting. I was thinking the same saying. That's why I said it wasn't at all the challenge David. I was genuinely curious let me do question at that moment because I'm so glad to have heard that even just little snippet from you, Rubin about Y dad, I also always love hearing from you, David about your dad and just hearing the soft sort of vulnerable. connection between the two of you. so Well and then with that in mind, I have one other thought question for you, Ruban, this probably is such a stupid Ovious question this attempt to impress dad or people to be loved and and accepted And I know you're actually extraordinarily bright and articulate and you've accomplished tremendous amount. I mean, a PhD at Stanford and Psychology is There's no walk in the park at all And I'm wondering if you're the same pressures that have caused so much suffering for you have also contributed to achievement. Achievement. Yes, definitely. abbsolutely. thanks largely a lot of those anxieties that I pushed myself so hard and gotten to where I am and I've achieved a lot of the things that I've achieved You know For sure. Well, I had kind of jumped back in Jill for which I apologize and you were No going on a really A really great vein there saying that you were honored that Rubin is sharing this part of yourself with all of us tonight and I think we all feel honored I'm grateful to you Ruben. the J just try not to waste our time if you can . do my best And don't bore us either, right Yeah. So David Thomas I was going to say what about asking, can we check in with Ruben on how we're doing in terms of empathy? That would be where I would be next. Tell me what you're thinking Please do Jill Yeah. So Riben, how are we doing in our with you, right? We definitely like to make sure that we're doing a really good job of understanding you that you're feeling supported and feeling warmth from us. So I guess I could say that more clearly, right, David. To what extent maybe you could grade us on an ABCD scale To what extent do you feel that we understand what it is that you're sharing with us, to what extent do you feel a sense of warmth and respect. And what else is there a third question, David Well, one is thought empathy Yeah, how accurately are we understanding how you're thinking inside The second is feeling empathy. How accurately are we grasping and sharing an understanding of how you're feeling emotionally as a human being And then the third is to what extent are we creating feeleings of warmth and acceptance and compassion and caring or whatever you want to call it that intangible. He human ast and u and surrender type type dimension. And if you could give us a grade in each of those, that would be helpful Yeah, I think I think it's an A plus in all categories except maybe thought empathy, which it is an A And I think the only thing I would add is that there's It's often a sort of pretty intense it feels like a compulsion to kind of ck and rechck that I'm the right thing. And so there might be a flavor of feels a little bit like it might be kind of OCD tendencies there that maybe hadn't I'm not sure if I fully expressed ound thats important that sounds really important and a little bit new. And that you want to check and reject that I'm doing the right thing. Is that something that you check with other people or more of an internal Chicken. more of an internal checking, although often have a strong impulse to apologize or qualify saying or if I said something that I feel is stupid, there's often kind of a an impulse to correct that or apologize for that. Yeah Can you the attack before it happens Exactly. Yeah. I just wanted to understand it a little better. So yeah, I'm glad you said that. So you're saying A plus on sort of thought empathy or I sorry, feeling empathy and kind of warmth and connection. And then thought empathy was an A not an A plus because because it was part that you hadn't yet shared. And so we hadn't yet, you know understood And that is, I just want to understand this better. You're saying you feel a compulsion to check and reeck that you're doing the right thing. So does that mean that you're, you know, if you're if you are presenting or let's take small group leading that you're checking with the group if they understand what you're saying? or how are you literally checking and rechecking example. I think I do I probably check more than I should or than I need to for understanding. I think that's a reasonable example I'm trying to think of another example. Part of it is kind of internal where maybe a word comes and then I kind of think, no, that's not quite the quite the right word And then I keep searching for a word that is just the right fit And then often I get anxious and forget what I was talking about entirely. Does this affect you almost all the time in all situations where you're where you're having to perform in front of a group of people or only if there's an authority figure of some kind there. If you were teaching some fourth grade or something, would it be lunch less muchuch less in front of fourth graders, I would say, still to some extent there. I think especially if it was material that I'm not super familiar with. I think it's especially in high stake situations, but it's similar. like if I have to write an email to an authority figure, let's say, I'll often reread it and it'll take me a long time to go over what I've said to make sure it's like perfectly clear and it sounds reasonable and it communicates the thing that I want to communicate and it doesn't make me seeme foolish Yeah Jill, could you tell us that email you you sent off to More You want to hear that story Yeah. N an email story, Ruben. I would love to. ye. Oh I can't belie this is this is a good one for for everyone to hear. You're all going to get a good laugh out of it Well, so checking and rechecking is the story of me not doing that. So this was many, many years ago where It was actually right before the Tuesday group and I was in the parking lot sending a quick email on my phone And I like to voice dictate. I still do that to this day because then it saves my thumbs from thumbing on my phone. And so I had sent an email, I was voice dictainating an email to my dear colleague O Kats and my email started Tim Or come a new paragraph, you know, great meeting today. and then I went on for a little bit And as I was in the middle of drafting the email I must have clicked something on my finger and it actually sent it without me being finished with the email which might be your worst my ribbon except it gets much, much worse. I looked in my send folder to see how much I had written. I thought I would just send like a part two, no big deal And when I looked in my sent folder, the email starts I am a whore comma. instead of Haor My voice dictation said, I'm a whore. And so I was laughing so hard, Luckily, Ma O is a colleague who I have a really nice professional relationship with. but it was pretty mortifying I bet Oh that is my worst nightnare Yes. and I also like to tell people about the end of the story is that I called and left him a voicemail, a rambling voicemail saying, I'm really sorry, but you'll get this email from me and this is what happened. So he wrote me an email the next day that said, like, dear Jill I think you're really being awfully hard on yourself. blah, blah, blah, blah, blah And then he signed it your' bitch Mir. Soour, Jill and Iven't mered that about you. Nothing. So yes, we all survived, but I think we probably all have a lot of like autoorrect mishaps and things like that can happen. from not double checking, but at the same time, I will tell you as much as That's a great story. I'm sure again, David we willll get to the positive reframing, but there's probably good reasons to check. and and double check. And also I can understand that that feels very burdensome and that there's a whole kind of cycle of anxiety around like it's got to be perfect and then is it perfect? And then I double check and then that pulls my mind out of being present and what I'm actually saying you know, and that makes me more anxious. So it definitely sounds like a pretty uncomfortable spiral to be in. and at the same time, I think we all could understand what motivates it Yeah had a patient then we'll get onto the The magic dial question. Yes who had OCD And he was a top notge law student and at tenen. But after he would have a phone call with somebody and hang out You would have the thought, I wonder if I said I killed somebody just before I hung out. And how can I be sure I didn't And then he would get in this argument with himself about it and he finally he couldn't resist the impulse to call them back. But of course, he couldn't call them back and say, did I confess to murdering someone when we last spoke? becausecause that would seem weird wed have to make up some excuse for calling them back and to see if they If they sounded okay. Right thenen he'd feel relieved and and hang up. and then he'd have the thought What if I confessed to murder this time? Nverybody knows any it's Yeah, OCD can be very vicious and very irrational. haveave us to get stuck in lots of irrational thought loops for sure. and very painful. Yeah, very painful. be life destroying. Absolutely. Yeah. ye But yes, so I hear you saying there's sort of a touch of that, you know, It's not kind of a full blown OCDA, but there is a way in which you're certainly doing that like mental compulsion of kind of checking and reviewing and thinking really thoroughly and that that kind of gets you stuck too Ran, you know, we we u We love you and and admire you I would love to offer you something more than just talk and support Although that's inccredibly important And and I'm wondering, I think Jill is wondering, is there some part of what you've been telling us tonight or some part of your daily mood loog that you'd actually like some help with And if so, would this be a good time to roll up our sleeves and and get to work on it or you need more time to kind of talk and and get support I'm ready to roll up my sleeves Let's do it That's it for this week's episode of the Feeling Good podcast For more information, head over to Dr. Burns's website at feelinggood. com where you'll find show notes on the podcast page Plus past episodes and lots of helpful resources for therapists and non therapists alike We'd love to hear from you Send us your comments or questions anytime. And if you enjoyed the show, please share it with someone who might benefit You can also support us by leaving a five star rating on iTunes I'm your host, Kevin Cornelius therapist and clinical director of Fuming Good Institute Silicom Valley. Thanks so much for listening, and we hope you'll join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good podcast