Finding Balance and Future Outlook

Before we start, this episode contains some chats you might find difficult to hear, so do check the show notes for more details Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that looks at the moments that can change the course of a life Today I'm chatting to Adam K. If it wasn't PTSD, it would have been something very similar to that. And you know no mention of counselling, no mention of time off, no debrief afterwards. And so until I started talking about it and dealing with it by saying it out loud I was know waking up at three in the morning, back in that operating theatre with my pulse going two hundred beats a minute and like in an actual cold sweat Oh my good Godd. There's only two weeks until the first happappy Place Festival the summer. I mean, obviously, I'm meega excited. I love nothing more than being there with as many of you as humanly possible and just feeling joyful. But obviously I'm nervous. It feels like I'm throwing my own birthday party twice a year every year And you know, you want everybody to have a good time. If you're throwing a party, which I think the happy place that has that energy. Yes, there's like calm moments where you can go and meditate or go and do a sound bath and chill out, but it's a good vibe, energy. It's like a big party And I am obviously incredibly nervous as you are when you're throwing a big party, that everyone has a great time. I want every single person who walks through our entrance to feel the joy that we're trying to create and try something new, maybe learn something new about themselves or gets a new perspective on life or a problem that you're going through. That's what it's there for. like certainly the talks tent. You know, that's where we've got all of these amazing helpful talks. I walk away each year going, o my Godd, I didn't know that or that's changed my thought patterns on this I want it to be as well as enjoyable, really practical and helpful. So if you haven't been before, do come along. If you've been before There's even more good stuff this year. We've got so much going on. But let's get to today's chat because I've wanted to have Adam Kay on the podcast ag Not only because I'm a big fan but also my son Rex, who's thirteen is obsessed with his books. My son will not read fiction. He's not remotely interested. He wants science, anatomy books and Adam's kids books are so entertaining, yet highly educational and interesting. like Rex will read me parts from his books and I'm like, I't known that. I mean obbviously left school a thousand years ago, but It's just brilliant. He's written loads of fiction and non fiction for both kids and adults based on his former career as an NHS doctor. His first book,f course, This is goingo to herurt really opened a lot of eyes as to what life as a doctor is actually like and I mean, that book is just phenomenal. I read it back when it first came out, I reread it ahead of this chat and it's full of hilarious and heartbreaking anecdotes. He manages to make the book entertaining and funny, but sad at times too He came into the Happy Play Studios wearing, I mean, an outfit that I would have chosen for myself, quite frankly. I loved every item of clothing. He had a polka dot shirt but like giant poka dots this kind of PVC crackled jacket in I'm gonna call it like aubergine. Great slacks and then burgundy loafers. Dream outfit. I couldn't be more in love with Adam if I tried Right, let's do it. This is the show Adadam K First of all, I'm so obsessed with your outfit. I don't know what to do. Oh my go, I hadn't seen socks Oh they're vaguely vaguely matching. They're matching I mean this the ideal chat for a podcast. I just like you were so in trem with the Pok Dots. I didn't see it coming today And I want the jacket out and the shirt and I've got those shoes already. So I mean, my admission about the shirt is I can't take full credit because my three year old chose one of my three year olds chose it. They're quite good stylists, k Yeah It's not bad. you know, I had I was looking between a couple of them and she said, o Like that, for that one. Just a three year old comment It feels like this has been a long time coming us having this chat. Wh has it happened before I don't know. I don't know. I mean we've sort of communicated because you very kindly let me write a piece for your beautiful book where you collated people's memory stories and poems about the NHS a while over COVID, it was lovely piece. And I was so honoured to be asked to do it So thank you first of all, but I'm so glad that we are face to face.. IRL. Also, your kids' books are the most read books in our household. No way. Yeah, my son will not read he's not into fiction, so he's reading all of your factual books. Y. Kay's anatomy, he loves, your book about medicine, which is Kay's K's Marvel Medicine. We're reading that last night. Oh yeah, and there's one about inventions. If you invent that all of them. Okay, fine, yeah We love doing True or poo, which is your true or false game. Yes. We play that constantly. Excellent. And also love I've got a whole book of Tru or or poos. I'll send you one of those. Oh, well we need That's my favourite bit of the night. But also he'll come up with really like as I said, my daughter loves reachel read fiction for hours. My son I have to like be him pick up a book, but your books, he loves facts. so it's so good because you're learning through this very entertaining medium of you telling these Wild stories He was saying last night about how the Egyptians believed that we ate food and it was digested by our hearts and then Yeah, it was a good guess, but they didn't quite like they wr it Yeah. I mean it's so interesting. so I'm really thrilled that this has been his sort of entry point into reading I get so many messages from parents saying, I thought my kid was a reluctant reader and it turns out they just needed a different the book it's really cool because it's the national Ye of Reading. Yes. and I think embracing all the different sorts of things that books can be is is often like the way in for kids. So like my books, you know, I've written some fiction, not for kids, but my non fiction books, they're sort of They're their own sort of think because they're funny silly, disgusting and full of fact, but it means you don't need to follow a whole chapter through. You don't need to have to hold all that in your head. And I think I get a bunch of messages from parents of neurodiverse kids in particular saying the fact that it's in little chunks helps a lot. and hoay, because read is you know non fiction as well. and it is graphic novels and it is putting an audiobook on the Tony or the Yoto or whatever it is. It all counts. it all goes in. Yeah, we love our Tony as well. That goes on before bed every night. Oh yeah, yeah, that goes on holiday with us. It's genius, So it's one of our crucial items for like your survival willness. Oh yeah, yeah yeah yeah. They are so good. No, we we are such big fans and it has been a real joy to see Rex. actually wanting to pick up a book and get stuck into it. and also really good for sort of entry point sex education, your K's anatomy book. L loads of my friends have used that to have that initial moment with their children sort talking about sex and puberty. It's been really helpful. Yeah,, you're welcome. Yeahah, I was slightly aware when I was writing the book because it started off, I was just doing all my funny gross stuff and I'll teach you about the lungs and mucus and whatever. And then I was like, whilst I've got the kids trusting me because I'm being funny and their friend, I can put in the more you know, the slightly difficult stuff Yeah. And you know, there is that sex head stuff and I can talk about smoking and I can talk about body image and I can talk about all sorts of different things well, hopefully, if I'm not being too preachy, you know, take some of it in. I mean, not at all. I think that's exactly why it works is that they're like along with the ride of the humour and They kind of learn they're imbibing that educational stuff without even realizing it. Yeah. and it's the same way that you you know, chop up the vegetables small, isn't it? You don't no one wants to think that, you know that you know, they're learning. Yeah But it's all interesting stuff because I've always been obsessed with the body but I think it's because you have to learn about it at school as part of a lesson. It never hits like the level of space or dinosaurs or something as a cool thing that people want to know about. but some other facts are wild and I thought that's good stuff for kids to, you know much. So like you say, you know that's part of our you know science lesson at school that we learn about the body, but you didn't necessarily grow up thinking I'm going to be a doctor. That's the route for me. It was something you kind of moved into. Yeah. over time think so. I don't know what I It's slightly unfair asking people what they want to do. Uh I think eighteen when you have to like choose to go to medical school, You know, no friend's eighteen years old, but you're anidiot when you' I definitely. I was absolute no bed. And like to say at the age of actually sixteen when you're choosing your A levels. to say, Ohh, by the way, now you need to decide what you want to do until you retire. Mad. And so you know I'd feel guilty about leaving medicine for you know, in all sorts of ways. But I think part of it is that I didn't know I was If you go for a procedure or something, you sign the consent form, this is what's good and this is what the risk is and then you sign. I don't think it was informed consent for any eighteen year old saying offff you go. Yeah, It's're going to be a doctor now. It's wild. I mean, your book This is going to hurt is now is eleventh year, am I right? I think it's nine years because I only know that I don't have a great grip on time and things like that. but I had an email from the publisher saying with we're going to do a sort of anniversary Yeah, and do I want to, you know I mean, I just I just reread it because I read it when it first came out You know, it was everywhere. It was you couldn't avoid it but back nine years ago, it was about. No,, you know, good way. Ebody was talking about it, everybody read it. But and I could remember obviously it's all these incredibly moving and funny diary entries, but I thought I really want to reread it because I loved it the first time aroundound but also to kind of go through your different stages of your career as a doctor And remember some of theort unbelievable and sometimes stories that make you absolutely wince. But you were prolific in writing these diaries. Did wereere you doing that even prior to your career? Was diary writing something you did as a kid that I did as a kid and I thought a lot about why I started writing these diaries and I suspect It was Brain trying to find a coping mechanism for the bad stuff So I just, you know, while life was life was not necessarily always good, but certainly very simple compared to a situation where you're at medical school cutting up a dead body or having to, you know and the difficult situations you find yourself in when you're actually working as a doctor in the tough hours and tough everything. I found myself writing their funny, silly, disgusting stuff Down I don't know, to I guess look for the light in the dark, maybe? Yeah ye. I think that's an amazing way to process your day when you've had a shit show over day or just something that you're really struggling to mentally chew over. There is something about like I write Everything with a pen. I'm you know not a book. I'll write that on my laptop, but if I'm writing notes for this or a little dimiring your your notebook just looking at my p your notebook. But there's something about like pens of paper that does help you get that clarity or at least like you're saying extracting the good bits from the more unsavourory part. Yeah, I think that's exactly it It's not the gold standard you know, way of dealing with your emotions, but it's certainly a lot better than nothing. So like my coping mechanisms were writing stuff down and drinking white wine They both work. Yeah. neeither of them are what the medical professionals would say is the one you should you know reach for, but you know, there's huge value in it. And and it also exercised this creative bit of my brain, which I think I've always had, but was never I know was never presented to me as an option growing up? No Well, it's not in school, is it really? It's there's an English lesson which was and I did, you know, I had a really inspirational English teacher then again, the lessons were mostly like talking about the religious themes of Bright and Rock or something rather than like, you know, writing can be ny took me until university to read the first thing that made me laugh and think, oh, books are something. You know coming back to talking about your kids and reading, it took me until I was much older than that to find that books are something I could enjoy rather than I guess enjoy or be examined on or something like that In my, you know, my dad was a doctor friendriends of theirs all had, no one in their social circle had like a fun job It was, you know, it was doctors and lawyers and accountants you know and still servants and engineers and Great There was no one There was no one I could didid you have anyone in your life who was creative or I mean I'm from a working class family. my mum had about four jobs. She's like cleaner, delivering next packages and dental nursing, etceter. But my dad was a signwriter for the whole of his career. So although it wasn't Always his creative ideas that were being put down. initially back in the certainly eighties and some of the nineties, it was all hand done. So I'd go to the workshop and I'd see him and his kind of motley crew of people that would work with him and they'd all be you using the stick with a ball and doing this beautiful liquid handwriting with a paintbrush which was mesmerizing and then it all got changed sadly and all the acrylic machines came in, so it became, o they just designed it on the computer and printed it out. So I definitely got to see like an artty side to something. Yeah. It wasn't always like, I've painted this beautiful landscape because it was like, you need to make a sign for Weembley Stadium. goo. It was that kind of thing So I so I sort of I didn't T a degree, but I think it's quite rare certainly in school to look around whether it's your parents, friends or whatever and think Oh, I can see that that's possible that I can be a creative writer or an actor or whatever it is. Yeah becauses it's more unusual. So it is. And I guess your route to creative writing was a windy one because of course it came off the back of you writing these dies. there was never any intention I was writing them that anyone would read them other than And millions of people have now. I mean, can you ever get your head around that? No, it's best not to. It's like when you're watching one of these Brian Cox documentaries and said, you know, the universe has got forty two squilly anduff you know it's becomome quite upsetting if you try to process it. But like because you know, obviously I'm very open and honest in my non fiction wrriting, you know, the fact that so many people know all this sort of weird personal stuff about me I don't want to process it. so let's just say it's only you who read it. Okay, it's just me. Obviously the end of the book is it was as heartbreaking to read the second time round as it was the first and because it's been such a roller coaster of different emotions, but a lot of humor in there and you're extracting those light moments from the dark, the end is even more heartbreaking. and the book ends with you, well, not immediately, but you realizing that maybe this isn't the career for you. Yeah After you had the traumatic experience of Being with a woman who, well first we had to deliver a stillborn baby and then she was rushed off because she was losing an insane amount of blood. you knew that this was something extremely traumatic to go through for yourself as the head doctor at that time in that operation But you knew also you'd probably go back to work the next day, which you did And I guess that leaves you with a certain amount of undalt with business that you then have to look at down the line Yeah, and I didn't I didn't examine it at the time. I wasn't given the opportunity to. The system isn't set up for looking after its own. So of all the people in this, I'm one of the people that obviously affected the least, but you know, I was still in the room and it was still tough, you know, for me as the doctor involved And it was a bit like I'd said I'd sprain my ankle or something. Oh that's awful. you were right. But I mean obviously you can aninato do anything in the morning, right? Be who else is going to do it in a system that's got No slack in it at all. assistant that says you're a bloody doctor. you need bloody to get on with it. And so you know, no mention of counlling, no mention of time off, no debrief afterwards and that was just the at the time it's getting better a bit. Do you think? It's getting better know it's moving in the right direction But still it's a tough gig in a lot of ways. I don't think I painted a particularly relaxing picture of being a junior doctor in that book, a resident doctor as they now are basically the good old days now. that's before everyone moved to Australia that's before, you know We're now one hundred thousand members of staff short in the NHS. you know tough gigs become an almost impossible gig. Well, that's what you say and you know, and you demonstrate that perfectly with a lot of the stories you're telling, especially the end of the book being expected just to pick yourself back up and crack on with it and not have that time for reflection or examination And so I did go back, you know, I did do that the next day and the day after that and the week after that. but essentially I realized that whilst You know, that wasn't a fatal blow for me. I was going to be able to, you know, pick myself back up and get on with it. I couldn't face that kind of thing ever happening to me ever again And friends who I didn't talk about what had happened because doctors don't talk about that sort of thing, unhelpfully Friends would want me to feel better about it and And the ones who knew what had happened would remind me trying to make me feel better, trying to remind me it wasn't my fault. that On labour boards, all you want is a healthy mum and healthy baby, your bare minimum. sometimes you do have one of these big disasters where you see neither of those two things. and that's probably going to happen every five or six years. And it's not about how hard you trained or the qualifications you've got. It's just a horrible fact of the job. And so I'd be told that. and then I had this sort of I guess this sort of depressing epiphany that I just couldn't face it ever happening. and so The best thing for me was actually to to step away And I thought I'd step away for a a few months and then and then You know, find myself a different branch of medicine go into one which is t There's no easy branch of medicine famously, but I mean The I was attracted to Obsg Guione, the Labourwood setup by the height of the highs, but that's always set off by the depth of the lows. And I thought I probably needed to find somewhere where the highs weren't quite so high, but the lows I could deal with And yeah, fifteen years later I'm still on my few months off. Yeah. I mean, it's taken you off an extraordinary tangent, which we'll talk a lot about today, but I guess Even though you went back the next day, you weren't immediately able to continue operating as you had been. You sort of were left with the paranoia that you would double check, triple check everything, make sure that you were going above and beyond, which then I'm imagining exhausted you to a point of actually made me a worse doctor When I was on Labor board You're aware of the labor board set up. in there. You're plugged into the machine and it's recording babies's heart rates in labour for a lot of mums during labour. and you're sort of taking a view and it goes up a bit, it goes down a bit and you're sort of,'ll pop back in fifteen minutes. Anyime a baby's heart rate dropped, the tiniest bit, I was like, Caesarean section U because I wanted to prevent This sort of thing ever happening again. but even though I knew couldouldn't. and Intervening too much is just as bad as intervening not enough. and I knew in my heart I wasn't actually being a good doctor when I was being cautious and intervening too much. Yeah, but completely understandable. Yeah. and I don't know. it's The NHS As much discususted I love and I think is our greatest achievement as a civilized nation, healthcare that's free at the point of service that's based on your clinical need, never based on your bank balance. I think that needs to be cherished and protected at all costs. I think it's perfectly possible to believe that on one hand and also believe It's often One of the worst employers in the world. don't think they look after their The staff well enough and you know, I'm just one of a million people with a story of how they were you know slightly let down by there . Yeah. I mean, we do have to cherish it. It's so unbelievably important and so many of us rely on it or have. And you know, like the book that I contributed to that you beautifully put together, it's touched so many people in huge ways, you know, in life saving ways in terms of haaving that one doctor or nurse who gave your relative or you that extra bit of care that you know that kindness, that human connection. It's so important. So in the states Galluop people, the polling people ne of the questions they ask the population every year is what's your biggest concern in life biggest stress and every single year, the number one concern in life So people living in the US is the availability and affordability of healthcare Hopefully no one in the UK has that anywhere near their top ten worries, and that is a brilliant thing. but The healthcare system isn't buildings and it isn't MRI machines and it isn't bed pans and it isn't anything other than the people working there. And those are the people who need to be looked after. And that's what our overlords, you know and senior management need to remember that that is what the NHS is.' one point one, one point two millionars you know, putting themselves and fit a hundredth. so that other people can be looked after. I mean, I experienced it so recently. My son had to go to ANN. he's luckily absolutely fine, but It was in the middle of the night. Obviously. Yeah, always. And you know, sort of a wakeool night. And I was sat there really because I'd had a stint in hospital a couple of years ago. And I'm really I was sort of bordline obsessive with doctors and nurses that You know, they're up all night doing this gig day in, day out U extraordinarily stressful circumstances a lot of the time. And we' in the kids A and E. and I was sat there just watching there maybe four or five nurses and then a couple of other nurses and doctors were coming in. At this point it was one AM. and I was kind of selfishly at the beginning thinking, oh God, I'm not going to get any sleep Ive got work tomorrow, It's fucking nightmare And I sat there and they were all joking around like Mickei taking one of the doctors, then another doctor came in. they all had a little in joke and were laughing here. and then one of the nurses came in to see us and was being really funny with my son basically, like trying to lift his leg in the air to see if it would move. And she was like, you're not very fit and had the sort of energy somehow at one AM to be larking around with my thirteen year old, having a giggle with him going back sitting with all of their teammates and I just thought This is actually one of the jolliest things I've seen all year and it's one AM on the A and E kids unit. It was sort of A bit of a wake up call for me and extraordinary And I'm just in awe and also the gratitude is like off the scale. but that obviously isn't recognise within the system because people aren't looked after, as you say, or paid well enough to stay within the job and It's underfunded, like you know, it's a serious issue we've got here. It is and it's yeah and it's currently heading in the in the wrong direction and I don't know what the answer is No. Do you? I definitely don't. And no one's expecting you too, but you've got The storytelling and the experience that I think alerts us to the fact that it is in trouble. We know that, but that we need to cherish it and something needs to change. and that's a systemic thing that's kind of Yeah, and Personally, I think we need to avoid people saying the system doesn't work, it's broken. It needs to be totally replaced with. Oh here's a good idea with we could have an insurance based system and this and that. A lot of these people who say these things have skin in the game been, you know, someone from that world' given them some cash and that hasn't, you know necessarily But I don't know. Anytime there's a two tier system. people fall through the and the extreme version is the system in America And I don't you know, I really don't think we should be No, no no. We should be heading down that road. No, that will leave so many people with zero access to any medical care, which is the worst nightmare for many people out there. It's not. All my American mates and I' I'm sure the sameing with you, one of the first questions about a new job is, what's the healthcare situation? Yeah yeah It's like determines the job they take, such the area they live, such crucial decisions Yeah are based on based on health and like even though the The execution of it at the moment, sadly isn't as good as it needs to be because there aren't enough And there isn't enough, you know, resource and there isn' enough cash in the system It's not like that. No, no, no We need to we need to really, really cherish it When you had hit that point of thinking, I really can't do this anymore. I love this job, but I cannot put myself through it. I mean, you describe it as PTSD. You had PTSD from this experience. think I did There's the only you know slight wobble and that is I didn't see a doctor to get the diagnosis because doctors don't like going to see doctors, particularly not about their heads. and Doctors make the very worst patients. It's sort of It's like a mechanic taking their cart or a different mechanic. Why didn't you just sort it out yourself? Youve sort of got that in your head And as soon as it's about your mental health and that's times a thousand, you sort of you really don't want to discuss this. But I was, you know pretty much until I started talking about this stuff. when the book came out, that was pretty much the first time it was the first time my parents knew why I'd left the profession. They knew I had, they didn't know I had. It was the first time my then boyfriend now husband knew. about why I'd left. And so until I started talking about it and dealing with it by saying it out loud I was you waking up at three in the morning, back in that operating theatre with my pulse going two hundred beats a minute and like in an actual cold sweat. And if it wasn't PTSD, you know, it would been something very similar to that So God, that's a hell of a lot to Harry internally, I mean I totally understand that we feel when we don't believe we can say to our partner, to our parents, like I'm struggling mentally, I don't feel well. It's a big hurdle to get over that many of us have had to eventually jump over. Yeah. But that's a big deal to go through the decision making in your head of I'm leaving. I'm not going to be a doctor anymore without actually saying to anyone in your in a circle and this is why and I obviously knew that that wasn't healthy But it wasn't until the book came out that I realized it wasn't Uncommon. Yeah. And I started getting huge numbers of messages, you know, people who write into the publisher, email, the publisher or, you know, messages on social media or whatever from doctors saying, all s in the same way. I've never told anyone this part. And they'll tell me this enormous awful tragedy. and then they'll say, and I never told my friends, my colleagues, my you know my A I anyone It's just I know it's this cultural thing in healthcare and it's a really, really, really big deal. And peopleople leaving isn't Great obbviously, but that's not the, you know The real problem essentially is the healthcare The system has huge suicide problems and's something no one wants to Talk about And it's a huge problem So every three weeks, a doctor in the NHS takes their own life. Every single week, A nurse in the NHS takes their own life And that's just two of the huge jigsaw of professions that makes up a health service. I'm so sorry that I was totally ignorant to those. It's not ignorant. It's a function of the fact it never gets talked about because of stigma and shame and taboo and tradition and whatever it is, every time' swept under the rug and And so Yeah, the numbers seem unbelievably high and, you know, and they're and they're multiples higher in that profession than in than almost any other profession and the numbers aren't particularly improving. and so something needs to be done because it It isn't I'm sort of aware that I say I had this bad day at work and I couldn't hack it and I left and it sounds a bit sort of, you know, poor old me. I don't think that at all. It's a really big And And I think we just need to remember and recognize that the people who do these jobs are human beings And you don't want to think of your doctors and nurses as human beings. So you know, you're going in a hugely stressful situation with an unwell child at one in the morning to an AE department and a doctor or a nurse says, you need to do this and you want to think correct. Yes, that's what I need to do. I trust you, you're right. You don't want to think you're a human being to makes mistakes Yeah, get sick, get sad, gets tired you need to put that to the side Yeah. and then kind of start to believe that that your own myth that, you know, you're, you know, Peting the ye Maybe I don't get maybe I am just a bit different and maybe I can just put these barriers up and not deal with these emotions. It's tricky one. It is because Every single human being in that role is going to be feeling probably every emotion every day. but if you're learning to suppress it and just go nope. not looking at that fear, that sadness, or that frustration that something didn't go well, whatever it is on a human level is going to build up into something that is unmanageable. Like it's common hundred percent hundred percent. I mean, you can always put your feelings and your problems into a box. Yeah. It does work, but eventually that box is going to open and you have no control about when that box is going to open so that is not the way to deal with it. So you know, I can only talk of the healthcare professionions about medicine because that's the training I have. Yeah. I dare say it's not hugely dissimilar in the other healthcare professions. So I went to medical school, I was there for six years. and then afternoon a week for my course was spent doing communication skills, which and hoay and that didn't used to be the case in a generation of doctors beforehand who thought you'd just sort of you know, march in and announce things. So we taught communication skills, taught all these sort of, you know brilliant techniques that you rely on about how to break bad news and all sorts of things, you know, and you know, and the nurs who was being funny and silly and, you know, messing around your son's leg. that's all good communication skills. that relaxes the person that, you know notot one point in these six years of you know, an afternoon or a week, did anyone say sometometimes you're going to have a bad day and this is what you do about it? sometometimes someomeone will die on your watch and you've got to deal with that. That's something that is Not anything a regular human in another job is going have to deal with. Yeah. It's just not It's just not. out with, you know, the emergency services, you know, and front end, you know medics, no one is if frontline medics, no one is dealing with that. And you need to be Taught how you need to be told the techniques Um When I applied to medical school it was Have you got loads of aailvels? Yeah, yeah, yeah. at All in sciences. Yeah. Do you have other interests? Yeah I could play the piano a bit. Okay, great. Okay you're in. That was it. There was no That's what it was. It was recruiting people who were good at science who could you know, play Lacrosse. Yeah I don't think that's necessarily how you get at a job that's basically a job about communicating. Yeah. And a job where you have to be honest, not every person can do every job. No. No, you know The thought of me becoming a firefighter is laughable. And hopefully at some point, someone would you know in the interview process, someone would check I was actually up to the do there was no are you up to it in And it's interesting because a friend of mine, good friend, worked as a legal aid solicitor. and essentially was burning out and could see he was burning out and thought I need to try something else. So he was like, I'm going to be a train driver. L trains quite like the idea of sitting in a cab on my own for a bit. And so he went through that and that's what he did Quite early on in the process, he had to speak to a psychologist who asked the question, If the very very worst happens when someone jumps out in front of your train, Are you going to be able to deal with it? Let's work this through, let's talk this through If you want to, you know, be a train driver, you want to be an astrona, If you want to go on loveve Ireland, you'll speak to a psychologist at the start. If you want to be a doctor, now you'd probably be fine And I think that's a, you know, and these are eighteen year olds, they must, I don't know don't think we're doing it right. No, I completely agree with you. If you're not looking after the people that are looking after everybody else, that is a recipe for disaster. And it is you are dealing, like that is the thing that I get from this book, like the second time reading it again Like you say, it's an impossible job that we're asking doctors and nurses to do. Yes. And it's that simple and they're expected to do it day in, day out. under, you know awful hours at the hving to often wake up long hours at the homeing to work. There's a thing in the book actually I can't know I haven't I haven't read the book cover to cover since I wrote it. so maybe maybe this disappeared into into the cutting room floor. But there was a there was a moment where We had this sort of oncool room on the Labour board where on the rare occasions where there wasn't an emergency buzzer ringing for twenty minutes, you could lie in that and get twenty minutes sleep and then you'd be you know, and then on with the shift. And the hospital in their wisdom decided that that was going to be shut down that if you're at work, you should be at work and that means awaken and I just, I don't know. As soon as that happens, my first thought was Yeah you know, senior manager person you or your or your partner going into Labour and a doctor needs to be know called as an emergency to do a cesare insection or a vontse extraction or forceps or whatever it is Would you rather has had twenty minutes sleep or you bolted the door so they can't and surely the answer is and that's just a tony example of not lookingooking after people enough my So many examples like a friend of mine who on the day of their own wedding to do a morning clinic in full hair and makeup because they weren't allowed the full day off because the rotor didn't allow it. You know someone who whose fiancee was sadly admitted to an intensive care unit as a patient And they weren't allowed compassionate leave to visit their fiancee because the HR rs say, o, it's only if you're married or it's a first degree relative These are This isn't Looking after people. No And this needs to change. It really, it really, really needs to change so massively Otherwise they will just move to Australia. was I love Australia. I've toured in Australia. few times and I'd say half of my audience there, British. Really? British doctors, I spoke to a friend of mine who' moved out. he's an A and E consultants out there. He reckons that seventy five, eighty percent of his Doctors in his department are Bits. What are they getting right over there What theyre getting right? They're tying them off They are working in fewure hours They recognize the work life balance and the thing that's hardest for us to achieve, it's much hotter, right one are we can't put cross money towards that one, sadly. That's not going to change it. But ultimately they're treating they're treating staff with respect and treating them as human beings. and it's like You know, if you're a resident doctor, junior doctor as was working in a hospital once year you get moved to a different hospital, which is fair enough becausecause, you know, working big hospitals smo ones at some experts in this some expert that make yourself the best version of yourself as a consultant, great. This other hospital that you have no say where you're sent is often eighty miles away. And so what does that mean? I mean unless you exist in a vacuum, that means, you know, saying goodbye to friends. Yeah you know, trying to convince a partner to move eight. They might say yes once. They're not going to say yes seven years in a row, are they? No. I mean you've had a fair amount of dealings with Putting this message out there and writing open letters to government, do you get feedback? Do you feel a shift in the right direction with positive change So yes and no I think Now it's recognized that Hospitals need to be doing more to look after their staff When you dig into it, sometimes it's you know, forty percent off a mindful than aap and a Zombber class once a fortnight And so better than nothing Yeah, but at the same time there yet. So it's, you know, I think it's really important to, you know, to keep banging that gone because it's it's a big thing On a more personal note to you When you decide to leave a profession like being a doctor, something you also known as with your friends and your family and there's Maybe not always the respect that you want at work, but there is a respect that you maybe command be like, Oh your parents like, Ohh my son's doctor. you know, it's a badge that you wear. Losing that. Did that make you feel lost? like you were slightly untethered, not having the doctor bit in your world anymore? I think I don't know how much cedos I took from from it, but it was certainly a big part of my ity because I' I hadn't taken a breath since school. I didn't do a gap here. There wasn't a gap between finishing my degree in medicine and starting work. I was just and I was on this treadmill, you have a house office, senior house office regisar, senior and sort of just moving forward, forward, forward. And then suddenly there's a power cut and the treadmill stops and it You know, Yeah, that's not a good moment. And so it did take me a while to work out. who I was if I wasn't a doctor because so much of my life was defined by it. And what about the PTSD Whether it was diagnosed or undiagnosed, you're waking up at three AM with a racing heart. you're dealing with panic, It's not a fun place to be. What helped you get through that I mean Ultimately And long term, it was professional help Yeah speaking to the people I should have been speaking to from the start. in the in the medium term, it was, you know Before it was a book This was me standing up on stage at the Edinburgh Festival reading out from my diaries and I would read funny silly gross stuff. It would be ninety five percent just lols And then I'd say this bit about what happened at the end Noot, you know, it's a confidence trick. A bit like it's a confidence trick with my kids' books. They think they're getting just the funny silly stuff, but they're being taught all of this hopefully useful stuff You know, this is gonna to hurt. It's sold as a funny book, but actually it's got this message in it. And the live show, which Ill probably I should bring back for ten years, shouldn't I? Beuse do an oldcle literary lab. You. Okay, fine, deal. do do it.. so I say this Ver, you know It's a difficult story to hear. It's a difficult story to read out. but it was a very useful thing for me because that was first time I started to process Well you have to like you have to confront it to deal with it. It's I think it When we've got stuff that we're not able to even look at and I've had this in my own life like, L la fings in ears. donght you can't heal from that because you're not looking at it. So you have to do the worst bit ever which is and I think standing on stage quite a literal reading out of your story. you're going to be processing that every time you get up on stage and do that to get your brain in the headspace to go Right, this is the reality of it. Now how do I move on from it No you' know, that' that's that's very well put. Yeah and it and it did it did help me, but ultimately what I should have what should have happened is after this incident. There's even a term for this sort of thing. Healthcare professionals are described as second victims. Right. It It's like you learn at school that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. That's for whoever that was. Newton? Someone like that. Yeah. say. I say Newton It's never equal what comes back in, but there is always an opposite. And so this second victim term is so The hospital should have been right. now here's your debrief. Do you want to have any time off? And I'd probably said no, but just being ask that might be, Do you want to have counselling? I don't know if I'd have said yes or no, but again, knowing that the help is say been a big thing, but I suspect help wasn't out there. Even if I've asked for it, they'd have been like But maybe even just the recognition that what you'd been through was very difficult could have been the first step in that. because if no one's saying to you I mean this must be full on for you to carry the weight of this. after what's just happened If you've not got that, of course you're going to gasolate yourself and go Brush it under the carpet. I'm moving on. No one's telling me that. L yout you need someone to mirror that back to you for you to go, God, this is something I need to look at here. Yeah. And ultimately, I did go and speak to my boss, my consultant about this and it went badly and I could have predicted it would have gone badly. In terms of it was brushed under the carpet for was It was Basically a version of manan up worst possible phrase But I could have predicted it because this was someone I had to address by his surname. It was so sort of hierarchical and militaristic and old fashioned and whatever, that you know, these consultants insist on being called prorofessor this, Mr., that, Mr or whoever. like that's you know If you if you're at the top of that tree, you should be taking your juniors out for a bowl of pasta without a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, just to make sure that, you know, you know that every one of them, if they're struggling can actually sit down oppos them and look Hopefully, and I know the person in question is now long retired. Hopefully those dinosaurs are no longer walking the earth you know, And now most of the consultants you know and my age and hopefully people who take it more seriously. I thinko I've done a fair few talks probably since COVID actually, in varying workplaces could be a bank or an insurance company, whatever. And the one thing that I see again and again In places that do take people's mental health seriously is when someone at the top, the CEO or a line manager, someone who's got influence shows vulnerability to their team. That is exactlyly game changer. Exactly that. And there was a big thing on social media a few years ago where doctors were taking photos of their antidepressants and psychiatric medicines and that was hugely hugely how powerful exactly. I would say There are now I think there are now twow types of mental L And this is something I'm stealing these words from a character in a book in a novel I wrote called The Picularly Nasty Case, which is about a doctor. It's a thriller and it's funny and it's all that. But essentially at its heart, it's about a doctor with bipolar disorder one in Do Is people have this condition which means probably one in fifty ish of the doctors Yeah who would have this condition. And so I announced I was, you know writing this book and you know and the blurb goes out and And I've got people with this condition in my life close to me Other people got in touch when it was announced including two people I'm sufficiently close to ours at their weddings to say, I've never mentioned this to anyone before, but I've got bipolar, I said. and We're talking about stigma Be the amount of stick. no one would say would hide a condition affected any other organ of their body.. N would say, I would never normally say this but I'm diabetic or I've got asthma or I've got psoriasis or I've got anything, but this these can so There's the So the two types of ments as I say it There's anxiety, depression, OCD, all these things. and brilliant I'm saying this is a good thing because it wasn't the case fifteen years ago, but people will happily say, you know, I have this and you know, this is what I take for it or this is what I'm seeing for it. And that can become like a dinner party, pub, whatever conversation. And then there's the other type of mental illness versus schizophrenia bipolar, where people's instant reaction is often a bit to rear back and you know, be a bit concerned, which comomes out of as all these things obviously come out of ignorance to transating into fear and, you know not doesn't get talked about. So I think theres there's still of a more of a journey and this character in the book, Aan, even though you know, it's not high in the mix, but it's there And all along, he's facing so basically, he reckons his boss has been murdered. No one else does, police, don't colleagues, don't Corn doesn't, but he's really onto this. And the fact that he's got this diagnosis means that sort of everyone raises their eyebrow, that little bits high He's always being seen through the prism of his diagnosis. This is why fiction can be equally as powerful Oh ye as a non fiction book because the messagings in there, like you say, it doesn't have to be like the main theme of the book, but you've got a character who is impacted by that diagnosis and the judgment and the stigma around it. And I think the more that we can these conversations in a myriad of ways, the better. So they're just the largest. Exactly. I mean, how you've got two children now who are both Threeh. Three ish. Three ish Um How do I mean, obviously they're too young to have these chats yet, but how do you think you'll approach that when it gets to later down the line? whether it is talking about physical health or sex ed or mental health, you know, I am only now with my children talking about puberty and sex education and every time like God, I should and it feels like there's a discomfort, whatever and mental health wise, even though I spend my life talking about it at work. I still sometimes stumble over like how do I articulate this? You don't want it to get it wrong. and in trying to not get it wrong, you sort of end up make It'll say nothing. and it's really tricky whichich is its own version of getting wrong. But look, you don't have to do everything perfectly. You just need to have good intentions. and I think The generation above us said absolutely nothing.hing. And that's definitely wrong. Yeah. And there's probably a version where you say too much. but Um, I mean, we've started to, um, you know, we've there are people, you know friends and family in kids' lives who are significantly unwell in that way And it's not something we don't talk about We just say, you know person X is ill. Yeah. and we're visiting them in a hospital or're in this place or that place and that's what it is because you create your own taboos by making it weird. Yeah. They have to be told that this is something to be to be scared of or to, you know, to not like Yeah, exactly. You just got to start those conversations early. Yeah. So if you don't if you don't make it Bgeyman, if you if you can be obviously easier said than done, prank and open about it and don't make it a bit. we don't talk about that. Yeah, exactly. And in terms of your recovery and whether it's PTSD or not, but your recovery from having panic and feeling that stress. Do you ever get little moments where it bites you in the ar again or you ye? Yeah, I do, but less and less and less. And I don't want to pretend I'm some sort of poster boy for really looking after my physical or mental health because I'm absolutely not. But I guess all I do do is treat my Mental health like my physical health and I guess make sure that I know my first aid kit is at home. Yeah. like the basic stuff I can do Which is, you know, I can take the dog for a walk. I can stop what I'm doing at the moment. I can sit down and play the piano really badly. That's my thing I do that really it takes me out of the world because I have to concentrate so hard on getting the notes right that I can't think about anything else. So I've got my first a kit and then there's like, you know the equivalent of you know, phoning one ele up popping to the pharmacist. And then there's knowing when you need to see the GP or you know, or rarely go to ANE. So just sort of just being able to spot there the signs. Yeah Yeah. and you better at doing that now considering before you had a bit of a block with I'm struggling. A you quite good at going Okay, actually, I need to have a second here to feel better, to feel well. Yeah. I mean, I'd say previously I was a one out of ten and now I'm like seven out of ten. so. It's good. Yes And you know, I don't know if I'll ever get fully better than than that, but that's where we are. Well, it's strange because I think culturally we're not told to prioritize looking after ourselves. We're just not. It's like make sure everybody else is okay, especially if you're a parent It's obviously a necessity, but We're never I think especially in British culture, it's like seen as indulgent to make sure that you're okay. Yeah That's very well per. So you have to really go against the grain to go I'm going to say no to that thing or I'm going to choose to do this because I know it will make me feel better rather than doing the one hundred jobs that I meant to be doing over here. Oh for sure. And think Medicine, know working in that profession for a while has, you know, changed my changed me and my personality in all sorts of good ways like I sort of, you know I'm very good at thinking, well, no one's died. you know, I can sort of, you know, I can put things in perspective. I'm very good in an emergency.. know if this room catches fire, or them. V veryy calm. teach you med. flammable stuff.' thinking. I think my outfit isn't going last long, is it? But it's like one of the things they teach you is The first pulse you check is your own in an emergency. That's one of the things. You can't be an effective doctor when you know you need to get the baby out in two minutes or someone's heart stoped, whereatever it is, if you're panicking. So you don't run to the emergency, you walk fast, but you're not No. And so that is given me lots of It's given me lots of positives, but one negative is my work life balance It's quite hard to shake that because in when I was working as a doctor, it was a one hundred to zero Oh well, no, there wasn't space for life Even if you were meant to go out for dinner or drinks, if the lab or buzzer goes in there' some great big emergency and you're there for two hours, there's no one to take over from you. just You've just become the flaky friend. And then by the time you've missed a couple of those drinks, they stop inviting you. and then sort you end up with no life, they just do work So still Like I don't know I'm now self employed. I should, you know, and I'm very lucky as a writer because for a long time I was, you know, I would take any job that was going to help me pay the gas bill. Now, you know, I can pick and choose a little bit, which is a wonderful situation to be in. I can be creative in the ways I want. Nonetheless, anytime something goes in I say, no, I have to say this. I have to make a we make this work because what if it's the last thing I've ever offered? I think that's just a bit of that sort of You know, and wiring. Wiring. Yeah, exactly that. And you know, I bring work on holiday. Yeah, I get it. I get it. It's just it's ingrained in you. It's it's how you work. It's it's why you keep churning out so many books. But as I said, I'm a massive fan. I love what you're doing. I think this book You know, although it's coming up to its decade, it's just it's so important for if anyone hasn't read this, I don't know who hasn't, but if anyone hasn't, it's such an important read and so entertaining to read. You know, it's a brilliant entertaining book but that also highlights All the changes that need to happen and a whole shift in respect and how we look at the work at the NHS, the people who are involved, the humans, the humans behind it. Exactly. That's the main work. That'sain It really is. And thank you for writing your brilliant kids books because you know they're bringing my kids a lot of joy and education on the Sly, which we absolutely love Before we wrap up two questions, the first is We are creating a happappy Place playlist full of jolly music that makes us feel good.. If you need to have that escapism, you need to go and walk the dog, what is that song that you're going be listening to? So I mean, it's not a traditionally happy song, but always joining it is D', the Kirsty McCole version of the Kink song. v And it's just it's the best voice plus the best song and it's Hopefully my funeral isn't super happy, but I've told James, my partner, that that's the song to be played at my funeral because it is upbeat Also, hopefully now I've said this out loud on your podcast, he will remember it as occasionally'll be like, What's the one who is it Ddream belieelver?, it's not Ddream belieelver. Don't get the wrong. So don't put Daydream belieelver on. No, no, no, just days, please. Okay, that's going in. And lastly Adam, what is your or what or where or who is your happy place Uh I Please. the Isles of Silly. Oh I've never been. You must go. love Don't tell too many people to go. Actually I shouldn't be saying this out lou. Chedags, all these people are herearing. It's the most Perfect, unspoiled, irritating to get to. so wonderful when you there And even though it's only half an hour from penzz, it's somehow its own climate Yeah and it's it's like I don't know, it's like being a hundred years ago and it's magical peaceful quiet and all the things my life isn't with two toddlers. Of course it's not. That's the absolute opposite. Well thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's just been a joy and educational and important. so thank you so much. Thanks for having me A, Adam, what a brilliant human you are. I hope I get to hang out with Adam again. That's the feeling I was left with after that chat like 've got to do that again, preferably over a glass of wine. It's just a joy to be around and cares deeply about the work that he's doing, the messages that he's putting out there and for us all to really care for the NHS. So What a top guy, Abssolutely bloody love him. You can read Adam's novel, a particularly nasty case in paperback now. And obviously I urge you to read this is going to herurt if you haven't. I mean, most humans have, but if you haven't, it's a must read. A massive thanks again to Adam and to you, you are the greatest