Social Trust as an Existential Threat

Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that supports you in forming your own opinions. Today I'm chatting to Todd Rose. This concept of authenticity is a gateway to a really great life I think we're so used to trying to be liable that what we really go for is fitting in Fitting in is I'll accept you if Belonging is I am accepted, valued and even loved for who I am We like to think We want everyone to agree with this. No, look, nothing wrong with that. When people agree with you, that feels good. It turns out that's not really the primary motivation. It's actually that you want to be understood If there was ever a time to be having this chat with Todd It' now is a very strange time that we're living in and it doesn't take someone who's obsessed with watching the news to tell you that we're in a very divisive place and one that can feel at times distressing and hopeless and leave you just feeling like, I don't know, untrusting of other people Or like everybody's at each other and arguing, or there's just a lot of hatred out there Now I'm not going to sit here and give anyone solutions as to how we solve any of this stuff. I'm like you. I'm just sat there going, what the hell is going on? But what we can do think is dive into the psychology behind it. that interests me greatly and Todd is our man. Todd is a scientist, a professor and a social entrepreneur. He co founded and is the CEO of Populace, a non partisan think tank dedicated to building a world where everyone has the chance to live a really fulfilling life in a thriving society. That's what we want, right I think that's what all of us want All of us just want to live in a lovely life of our own, but in a thriving society that feels cohesive like a collective. and I feel like we're very far from that. And that's why this book interested me greatly. His book is called Collective Illusions. And it's fascinating. It looks at how we end up either in a collective thinking in a certain way and how we're manipulated to think in a certain way, or how we simply appear pressured into thinking a certain way. and often how A lot of the time we assume things about other people and how they think, but we are entirely wrong. And this doesn't just apply to societal and political issues. It applies to everyday life. Like every day the smallest decisions that we're making, how so much of this is informed by the pressure of what we assume everyone else is doing or what we believe is the norm. But honestly, this one relates to everybody. There's not a single person that this chat won't touch in some way. So we really dug into lots of interesting places in this chat. like why as humans we want to belong as a group which again, impacts us hugely, the difference between private opinion and public opinions. That is a big one. And this is something that he has got great stats on. He's done a lot of research into that exact topic. And why and this is huge, why silencing yourself could have implications on your physical health This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X card. VentureX offers the premium benefits you expect, like a three hundred dollars annual Capital one travel credit for less than you expect. 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Kia, Movement that inspires Call eight hundred thirty three fourty for details host a afree event and seven hundred six twenty six to deala for warranty details While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for forty five minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears, and when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. ACast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, host read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked Don't fight for attention. buuy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast. com slash advertise Right, let's do it. hereere's the show. It is so lovely to have you not only in the UK, but on the podcast today. It's so great to be here. I loved reading this book. What a fascinating read, Collective illusions. We've not No, we've done this podcast for over eight years now and I don't think we've gone anywhere near this subject matter. We've probably talked around it. Yeah Listen, you've been talking about the solutions a while. Yes. So that's why I was very excited to talk to you. I'm really, really looking forward to digging into it. First of all, just as a broad sweep, what is a collective illusion It's basically group thinkink but you're wrong about the group So like more formally, it's a phenomenon where most people in a group end up going along with something that they don't privately agree with, only because they incorrectly think most everybody else agrees with it. Which actually probably informs much more of our lives than we care to believe. What's so funny about this is as scientists, we've known about this phenomenon for one hundred years We've been say it, it's only been since the Abbot of social media that these have become like a runaway train. because think about like you're wrong about your group. R? It's one thing to be wrong about another group This is the group that matters to you and you want to belong But like and this is what's so interesting about these illusions, right? Like how they happen Be you might think like, well So with someone manipulating me, which can happen but it's actually just technology slamming into our biology. And if you don't mind, I'll just give you the quick Short version of this s is how does this happen? Yeah is like we're hardwired as human beings who want to belong Yeah to be part of groups. right? My background is in neuroscience. I mean there's like a fundamal truth We're a social species To get that belonging, you'd actually have to know what your group believes, right? Be otherwise What are you conforming to? Yes. So here's what's crazy. You'd think like, okay, if belonging is so important then your brain must have some really sophisticated way of figuring out what does my group believe? limsiest shortcut imaginable. It's wild. Your brain assumes the loudest voices repeated the most are the majority. And that is mimicked so literally on social media. We listen to the loudest voices, we look for the biggest boldest accounts and we're like, they must be right. They must be right. And the thing is that shortcut evolved. so it must have worked back in the day But you put it into a social media environment. So if you look at any given platform, let's just take What was Twitter? YeahX So Research has shown that eighty percent of all the content on that platform created by only ten percent of the users. And it turns out that ten percent isn't remotely representative of the general public. They are extreme on almost every social issue So If you think about this so Just imagine the problem. tenen percent of people hold some fringe crazy view, which is almost always going to be true. right in society. You can find ten percent. Of course. The Earth's flat. Yeah ye. We never went to the moon, whatever Um And it's ten percent, but you think it's eighty percent. Wow. So unless you're willing to go against your group, which we can talk about all the reasons why biologically is hard to do then yo you'll just say nothing, right? You'll self silence. Or you'll start lying. You'll start saying exactly what you think you're supposed to say to be with the group. And at worst believing it? Well, so this is the trick, right? A first you know att first you don't believe it. Right, rightight. So I'll give you an example from the states. that we track with our research There was the big movement of defund the police. and the folks on the left Publicly sixty percent said, o yeah, we want to defund the police It was nine percent in private So we have is what we do we do private opinion research, get around this and nine percent I was like, okay, but they knew that there was a right answer that the fringes in their political movement were making these very loud claims. people were like, yeah, I guess I want to defund the police. You're like You don't, you really don't want to. W. And so we've been we've been studying this, this phenomenon of collective evillutions because you think, okay, is it just of topics. Well, in the states where we have almost all of our data, there's over a hundred issues where We're just wrong about what our own groups believe. I bet there are millions. like it's tiny moment in every day. It's exactly right. And we think that we're these autonomous creatures walking around going, I've decided to do this, I've decided to do that. And you realize from everything from the clothesure you're wearing to the food you're eating, to who you're voting for is more than likely influenced by this manner of thinking. So your studies are fascinating because you do these private studies. So that involves You explaining to individuals, this is just me and you. This is a private study. So we have to create that experience and so quantitatively, right? So the trick with all these methodologies, they're called private opinion methods is people have to have anonymity, They have to know that there's literally no way I can know what you're saying and what we call like plausible deniability. Yeah. So there's this funny phenomenon when you're taking polls in surveys You sort of think, what if someone burst in the room as I was answering something? L it's dumb. It's never going to happen. But people are like, o, you might know that I click that I agree with this So we have these sophisticated methods that actually build that anonymity and plausible viability. and they're We didn't invent the methods. That's the way I can tell you they're good. Yeah. smmarter people than I am. In them we just were the first to deploy them at scale on social issues. Wow. And so like I'll give you an example. in the states We um Trump's final vote percentage within a half a percentage point six months in advance No one was even anywhere near that because there were segments of like Gen Z that were lying about their willingness to vote for them. They knew they weren't supposed to say they would And so they were saying, oh, no, I wouldn't no, I'm not boming for him. It's like, oh, actually you're going to.. And so it's like most political issues these days are under these illusions because, you know, everybody's like right at each other. and but it's crazy as we're talking about. it's not just these big issues. It's like Our whole lives are shot through with millions of these examples And it's like, I can see why maybe If your job depended on it, you maybe don't speak up. you know, I mean, I don't think that's a good thing, but I can at least, you know, Yes, you don't w want to lose your job. You to provide for your family But it's like, we've gotten so used to living in the lie that we just do it over the most mundane small things. Yeah And we sort of think, oh, what's the What's the problem? Yeah, But you know I lived and breathed this when I first started therapy. Beause I reckon it took me near to a year to actually say what I really wanted to say in therapy. therapist. Who I knew would keep me completely anonymous. Right. Who I knew would be professional and private and also I knew wouldn't judge me. And even if she did, I shouldn't have cared because it's a paid transaction between me and a professional who I want to help me. But I reckon it took a good year for me to really start unfiltering and saying things that I was embarrassed about, things I was terrified about, and also my true feelings around certain things that were really plaguing me because I wanted to bec I wanted to come across as this like decent p. Yeah, right. So I mean, it's really important and I think that we should all give ourselves a little bit of just grace that it's like, How do we get here where we end up misrepresenting the things that matter to us? It's like When we've studied this, at first I thought it was all going to be this sort of cancel culture. that's a small percentage. Yeah, yeah yeah. Most the time it's just two real motives. One is Most people are decent people and they don't want to offend So imagine if I think that you really don't agree with me on issues I was like, you know, I'm not gonna see. No, no, no, yeah. Why rock the boat? Exactly. I don't want to ruin day. No, we're having a good time. Yeah like But in reality, it turns out with our private opinion, we're like, oh actually odds are, you actually agree and we're just not even talking anymore. Yeah. Or you're saying, yeah, I agree. I agree with this other thing that I don't really believe in you're like, yeah, me too, right. We're all just lying to each other. It's sh. So that's the first one. And then the second one is broader desire to please R, which as you've written about comes from a lot of different places, but not just right. And's but the thing I think is fascinating with you is I think, you know, you had mentioned in your writings many of you've read my book, but Laol, great. amazing. Thank you so much. I really lik them. really did. ourur team read them. Oh, thank you. But this idea of where you know, you didn't quite say it this way, but I think' what you meant. like almost from an early age, you're being paid. it's monetized liability. Yeah. Right. And so it's like without even realizing it you had not just the social incentive, which everybody has, but you know have a financial and status incentive to be likable. Yes, which is just means be like them. Yeah, right? exactly without even thinking about it, you can suddenly get into this path of most of the decisions are not really about an inward reflection on who you are what you actually believe, what you prefer. But it's like almost like calibrated to the audience And you know, I could for me, it really struck me as like, yeah, that's something we all go through, but just not with that added likeike all the incentives for you pointing toward be likable. Completely. And I think that, you know, in our broader society, I think women in generales have that pressure that, you know, I mean, we tolerate men being less liable Yeah, right. Yeah you can be in a position of power and be authoritarian and now I and bat's an Isyelid. But I think for most women who say, you need to do this. I don't want you to do that. It's like what a bitch. you know, It's just the general consensus is exactly. they don't have that voice. Exactly. So so when you combine these things, some of us feel pressure, there' real there's real pressure saying, hey, you've got the wrong view. this could get you canceled We're just decent people who don't want to offend. but remember, we're wrong I need to be liable And so that when we look at the kinds of people who are the most susceptible to these illusions. Not surprisingly young people. Yeah CEO's Be if your're CEO Like a CEO, she might say, look, I care about my customers and I care about my employees. So you're trying to be sensitive to what they want but you're susceptible to the loudest voices repeated the most. So then you mitigate what you actually believe right in the first place. And then politicians M because it's like, I just want to get ree elected. Yeah And so we did this, you know, the defund the police movement that are just share that example. We actually spent time when Biden was present the U. S with Biden and his team because they were like, well, we read the book What should we be thinking about? And we're like, this defund the police movement. It's just not true. And they're like, Oh, no, no, no. That one, you're wrong We get so many calls. and I'm like, right? they're lying people who are really upset. Yeah. and they're calling you over and over again You know what I mean? it feels real. And this is the hardest thing with collective illusions is We now live in a time when you cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks you're just going to be wrong, but it feels right. So we're really trapped by our biology here where you know, when we're told, when we do like brain imaging studies When I say like we have this bias to belong It is shocking It's not just a psychological thing Like study after study shows you just being told that your opinion aligns with your group triggers a dopamine reward response. Like the same areas of your brain that hard drugs activate. Yeah. Like it's powerful. Y. And converly When we tell you that your opinions misalign to your group, it triggers what we call an error signal. in your brain, this cascading electrical signal that's meant to disrupt attention me I know that feeling. Yeah. It just littleiter like something's wrong Yeah Pay attent. So you know your nervous system is being electrocuted. It's the worst feeling. It's the worst feeling because it's meant to be bad Be something's wrong, your brain doesn't know what to do pay attention. Right? Just figure it out. And this is prehistoric stuff. like, you know, we needed to be in tribes to not get eaten by a tiger kind of thing. Oh, for sure. Listen, you do not survive as a human being by yourself. No, you don't. Night. And so They're so basic. It's so basic. And if you think about it, it's so valuable. Being hardwired to be part of a group, You survive better as a pack Like that's just we're not from a strength perspective, would be eaten alive back in the day, right? Yeah. So you band together But then that also allows cooperation which humans are uniquely capable of And you can do way more together if you actually cooperate. Yeah. So how would you incentivize that? you select for those things that make me more likely to actually take into account your interests, your things, you know, like But that means I'm sensitive. to what you think and feel. Yes through empathy and things like this. And so that's great and you're hardwired to really be aligned to that But then like anything, it can be misused and abused And it could become a mechanism of control. Yes. And the consequence and I think we could talk about this like we lose our authenticity term used and abused as well. Oh my where I almost don' even like saying it. I don't even know what it means anymore. Like it's so overused. I'm sort of obsessed with the idea of it because I don't think any of us really have a clue What it mean? No? O people go, Oh, you're like, you're so authentic on Instagram, whatever it's like, What does it even mean? Yeah We don't know who we are. And I think most people at best That's just a word we use for I don't think you're being fake. but like you know what I mean? It's almost like we're so used to the Instagram life that someone who even reveals something slightly flawed. No they don't wear makeup. They' authentic because at best, we're like, well You're not getting anything out of that. So you must be closer to who you think you are. Y. But I think it's really unfortunate because This concept of authenticity is a gateway a really great life. You know, it's really important. Most positive psychologists, the humanistic psychologists, saw authenticity as literally the ultimate goal And how can that if we somehow land on it, which seems almost impossible in this day and age, what benefit can we see? This is it? So first of all, I'll give you my definition of it, which I think holds up in the research. It's not that you're right Right? Authenticity and all the benefits that accrue from it is about public version of yourself aligning as closely to who you believe you are in private. Yes. Now, again, you could be wrong That's okay, right? So if today I think I really like chocolate ice cream and don't like vanilla ice cream, and so you say let's have ice cream,' say o, I want chocol And then I taste it, I'm like, oh, I don't actually like this. I like vanilla. I wasn't inauthentic the first time. No, right. And so it's again, we tend to think it's like, how can you be authentic? peopleople it's hard to know yourself. Yeah, it is really hard to know yourself. But it's like in any given moment You know, like you know when you're not being quite honest. R? L ye. I mean sometimes feeling. Yeah, it's like, listen, there's plenty of times where we fool ourselves So let's not worry about that right now, but the times when you disli No, I didn't say anything there or I went along with this and I don't really agree. O you actually totally compromise your values, which we've all done over the years, especially in teenhood, you know that's Yeah one of the parts of growing up, like you just ditch your values. And what's shocking to me is I think if people understood what the research shows about the personal and social costs of inauthenticity and the upside being authentic It would become, I believe, like the most important thing that we strive for. So I'll give you an example. Longitudinal research on this shows that This was done for women. I'm assuming it would hold for men, but this study was about women. u that Levels of self silencing. So withholding what I believe is a major cardiovascular disease for women strokes heart attacks These things like Because of the tension that your body is holding elevated baseline levels of cortisol. W. Cortisol is a fight or flight kind of triggering mechanism, right? It's meant to be for survival. In short bursts, it's really good organizer of energy in your body circulating in your blood at elevated levels, it breaks down blood vessels. It's like drainer. I mean, this is this is the connection between you know, how we're thinking, what we're saying, not saying and the physical manifestation, which you know, maybe twenty thir years ago would have been seen as woo woo.. But now we've got the science that works. This adds up. Like it I always love that, you know, What was Woooo And now suddenly is like, well, we, no, actually this is just true. You know, and we're catching up to that and it's But you know, you think so the other thing that was interesting in this particular study I'm thinking about is If you look at mental health issues, particularly around anxiety, depression, eating disorders So women tend to be overrepresented in those. Yeah, I've done all three. Yeah. Right. It turns out that If you control for levels of self silencing 'cause women' self silence more. Yeah it actually They're not statistically different anymore. Men and women. So it's like It's contributing directly to the cardiovascular problems but a whole bunch of other secondary effects. So we sit here like riddled with anxiety you know, not feeling good about ourselves And it's like it we don't realize that Some of this is directly attributable to these small decisions we make every day. Yes, to just not live in our truth at all. Yeah. And of course that builds up and becomes can be catastrophic in a physical sense. It becomes habit Right? We just do it. We don't even like the number of times when you think like,, I just went along like There was no a reason I could have said what I think. There was no threat. No. but it's just habit. And also I guess what you have to be able to do or at least try and practice, which I've been trying to flex these muscles in the last year, is when you stop self silencing or you say, something contradictoryial I don't want to do that. That's not for me, or I don't want to partake in this you have to be able to ride out the other side of it, which is a slight discomfort. Yes, whichich in the moment feels horrible. It feels horrible. But is much better than years of Y. Pch in my jaw, I'm absolutely livid or I'm resentful or whatever it is because we're not saying our bit. And I one hundred percent agree and you think about If you just think about like Okay, that unwillingness to respectfully disagree or just, you know, say There's something that matters to me and I'm not saying it You think, okay, I don't want that. like I think you got it exactly right. There's a moment of discomfort. It's just perceived. Yeah. And how many times, you know, you write about this? like times we' like, you know what? No Sorry, birthday party just you can't like thowing a guy. Yeah. And it's like, there's a respectful way you gave which is always a justification. Yes. R Yeah. So if it No than you. No, I't want to It could be like, oh, so you don't like me? Yeah. It' how you say it at the. Yes. And it turns out, oh okay, so That was going to be okay. Yeah. But that you're worried like what will they think and that like want to feelill the airs when they're in person. You just want to like Anthing anything of the sound awkward. But' if you realize like like for me, I will perseverate on the thing I didn't's like and it just you'll hold you become resentful. you it's just The price you pay on the backe end for avoiding that moment of discomfort Once you're aware of that It's just like, this is ridiculous. Why would I ever choose that I mean you could walk through having heard you even just talk for this few moments, you could now go about and walk through the rest of your day analyzing every decision you make, everything you don't say, everything that you do align with, even though it feels a bit off. And it could get very interesting, I think. Ver interesting. You could get a notepad and write down a million things you've noticed. So this is exactly what I would suggest people do Before you try to change it Right Be if awkward Like document, Don't even try to adjust it. Just be like, o, you know what I didn't actually say that and I felt this way or I wanted to do I wanted to go to lunch here. I just assumed everybodyone there I didn't say anything. It's okay. it's okay. maybe that's fine.aybe it's You liked keeping the peieace. Yeah. but just document it It's shocking It' shocking how much of our lives are just literally we're back to Y life, we don't have the financial incentive and yet we're still around by Lkable. Yes. Do know also sort of another layer and I wonder if this ever comes up in any level of research is I sometimes have this feeling that I'm not sure if I'm a good person or not. And if I just do the right thing or say the right thing, that is somehow proof to myself that I'm a good person. because I think we're told so often and we might not again believe it, that if you think in this way, if you vote in this way, if you do this certain thing, if you speak in a certain way, if you act in a certain way at work or as a woman, or whatever category you're looking at but that you are then an acceptable human. Whatever that means, you know, it's all just We've fed it and then we believe it. And I think often we use it as a marker of where our moral composites and just that fundamental, I want to be a good person, but I need some sort of proof to myself that I am. And I think that sometimes stops us from doing the thing that we actually really want to do. Yeah. No, this is right. It's like and think about it, if you didn't want to be a good person, it wouldn't affect you. you just live free really a be gota be nice once in a justust flip a switch for a day. Exactly. Do you know, we actually had on One of the most fascinating guests was a lady called Patrick Gagney, who is a sociopath, clinically a sociopath and also now helps other people with sociopathy and living a relations She's a mum. Oh, wonderful and intelligent obviously and just fascinating to talk to. and she has a husband and children, lives a perfectly regular life. but the I often think I've got like too much empathy, too much of that going on, which can cause me in immense amounts of pain in all sorts of situations with other human beings that she doesn't get. and she's like I feel sorry for you. Like I hear you and I get this. I feel bad for you because she doesn't have that. She can make decisions from a place of I want to do this and I'm going to do it and has learned how to live in the confines of society, to rub along with other people do her job to help other people and to feel like a sense of purpose, even though she doesn't have that immense empathy. That's the opposite of. That's the opposite I'll tell Well there's daysable. Yeah there's days where I'd be like, boy, that'd be nice. Yeah. It would be miserable. Yeah I'd rather start from the place of empathy and try to dial that back a little bit. And how would you do that? If people out there are like, God, you know, I've spokke to so many women more so who are like I am drowning in trying to keep everybody happy, spinning a million plates and doing the right thing. I think it's always the should rather than this is what I want to do. I should do this. How do we break free from that? Yeah should just could with shame. Yes. Totally Here's the thing Let's step back and realize, okay, so In the case we're in now You should always start by assuming you're probably wrong about what other people think anyway So so just imagine if that's true then how would you behave If I'm sitting here thinking m pretty sure you don't agree with me on some issue So it's important to me, but I'm not going to bring it up. Yeah. If I told you you're probably wrong L wait so we could boonded over that? Yeahah, we could had a great conversation. L Yeah, we could be friends. we could so we're just not going to do that Right? So it's like just recognize that that feeling of sort of group thin and getting pulled into conformity is bad enough as it is But again, you're about to conform to something that the group or other people don't probably even want. The best example I've heard of this is when you talk about this study in the Netherlands, and it's a basic hot or notot. Can you just talk us through? 'causeuse I think this this is the greatuch such a great way of discussing it. We have my colleague did this case When we when we talk about we have this bias to conform, you know, to belong He wanted to know like how How far does that go? Right? Be you could see certain things having conformity bias. So he tried to pick the most subjective thing he could think of, which is who you think's attractive. And we all like, beauty's in the eye of the beholder. Yes, right? We also be like, really you think he's? It gives you there's hope for all of us, right? But But so Clever study He brings people and puts them in an FMRI scanner And scans their brain why he's doing this task. It's literally just A couple of hundred faces And your job is to play hot or not. Yeah. right? It's really like a scale of one to five, how attractive there Okay. So the task goes like this. Face comes up, you're like, oh, that's a five prettyre hot right after you give your score. A number appears above it in the scanner. It tells you what the average score was for everyone who'd done the study before you So that's a group You don't even know these people. You'll never meet them. So why should that matter? But it does. Yes. Okay. Here's the great news. Do doesnn't exist. It's made up So here you are plugging along. You say five Now, it's all rigged because it's all made up quarter of the time It makes it so that you and your group are identical. R. You said five, oh, your group says five. Yeah, well, D you, you got it right. You got it right And that a quarter of the time You say five, it goes to the opposite extreme Oh, the people thought it was a one. U. You think that's good looking? rightight? That's it. And then you go through a couple hundred of these. and at the end Oh shoot Sorry about that. For whatever reason your responses weren't recorded So if we gave you a little more money, would you just quickly, you don't need to scan your brain? We just could you just quickly give us your responses And they randomize the images again? I just give okay here's's cool when you're in the scanner And that five and five shows up triggers that dopamine reward response It's like a it is a dream. Everything's aligned in the world is the greatest feelilling ever. When you're told you're against your group, we see that error signal cascading. It's so adversive. feels awful. It feels like something's really wrong So not surprisingly, when they were asked to do the task again Almost inavly they moved their scores to be closer to the group. They didn't even know they did it You interview them afterwards, they'd say, No, I didn't Like funny. No, And the thing is they don't remember, it's like aple hundred faces. Yeah. going pretty quick. Your brain's doing the without even knowing. That five was the wrong answer That face, that's attractive or it's not attractive. You thought it is You're wrong It's m. It's crazy. So it's like, so We don't want to lose like the human connection is part of what makes life worth living And so what I would say is that we can talk about sort of how you get back on that But just realizing that like we tend to think of like that desire for authenticity is somehow at odds with our desire connection Like like, if I'm authentic, I It'll ruin my belongings, right The research is crystal clear Let's say the exact opposite becausecause instead of belonging, you think about this You know, like, u, this guy what weird Remember analogy, but like You don know like, so we've evolved to with eating, for example You start eating and then you get feeling like you're full It tells you to stop And you know O time The food that was available to us was healthy and you're getting nutrition. feel when you get nutrition, you just get Now you get McDonald's and all this stuff and you get you feel full It takes a while til you realize you're not actually getting any nutrition.. R and it wrecks your life I think this is how it is with belonging now I think we're so used to trying to be liable that what we really go for is fitting in. Yeah. And we think that's the same thing.'s a po. It's a poull version of it. It is, It's an empty calories version. Yeah. It gives you something. Let's just be clear. likeike I'd rather fit ins junk belonging. It's junk belonging. because if you think about it, like fitting in is I'll accept you if M Right. And again in your book, you went aition. You'll like me if . So those are all this conditional stuff Belonging is I am accepted, valued and even loved for who I am. Yes. And it doesn't mean you have work to do. It doesn't mean that you're a great person all the time But there's just something about and we all know that. if you're in some kind of relationship with a friend, a partner a sibling, a parent where you just feel like You know what It almost doesn't matter what I did. Yeah. They'll still love me. Yeah Yeah, there's like no greater feeling in the world. The best feeling. And you only get that. when you're authentic to you by the Capital One Savver card. With Savor, you earn unlimited three percent cashback on dining, entertainment, and at grocery stores. That's unlimited cashback on ordering takeout from home, or unlimited cashback on tickets to concerts and games. So grab a bite Grab a seat and earn unlimited three percent cash back with the Sver card. Capital one What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital onene. com for details You've got social dialed in Search is doing its thing So why do your marketing results look the same as six months ago? That's because you're fishing in the same pond as everyone else. Podcast listeners are a different audience entirely. more engaged, harder to reach through traditional channels, and ready to act when someone they trust makes a recommendation We're a caste, and we put them right in front of you Browse thousands of the world's leading podcasts, book host reads or run your own ads, and track every conversion in real time. Same skills you already have, brand new results. Acast Acast d. com slash advertise But if we go back to our teen years, a time when you it's all based on conditions, there's very little understanding at that point that I can do whatever I want and my peer group will still accept me. It is For most of us, the case is, we copy each other's hair, clothes, habits, music, tastes. I mean, I used to date boys and I would ditch all of my music, my CD's and go, I'm just gonna listen to the band they like. And I would hate their bands. this is absolute shit, but you would just listen to it and go along with it because you desperately want to be part of something. You talk in your book about sticking tobacco in your lip because all your mates are doing it and then you find out down the line they weren't even enjoying it. Yeah we're just all doing this stupid stuff.ike it's so ridiculous. What's interesting about this is againgain This kind of mech is of what's valuable about it. is social learning This kind of like Wait, I'm going to imitate I was like, I can learn things with the hard way Like, you know what I mean? in fact, if I'm in some far away country lost in a jungle. And I'm like, I'm hungry And there's someone who's local and they're like, yeah, I know those look like apples. Don't eat them. I'm not gonna to be like, what will you know? I'm like, you probably know. Yes. And it's just smart. Yeah. So humans are exquisitely good at extracting information from experiences of others and sharing that. Yeah. And that bubbles all the way up to culture and things like this. So that's good Yeah. So it's okay to be like, I tried on different music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeahah I did it I did it for a boy. Yeah. but I tried it on. as long as you realize It's like, I'm sampling Yes. You know, and I'm getting something out of that, but it's like It's very different because I'm sure there's occasions where you were like, it turned out I kind of like that music. Yeah, yeah, of course, you learn, like you say. And also I think there is an element like the jungle analogy of like picking which food you're going to eat is a safety issue. I think you do feel emotionally safe or unsafe. and I even have it, I'm much more aware of it at this point in my life where I could be in a group or in a social setting and I just think, I don't feel safe.. There's something about this where I just feel like this is sketchy and I'm not actually in danger, but my nervous system is firing off on all cylinders and And I'm like, I don't feel safe I'm going to leave. and I will just leave and walk out now. I would have stayed before and felt Like I was literally being electrocuted all night, but now I'm like,'m I'm out. It is like a safety thing. No, I mean, for sure. And that's the thing is that if you just think over evolutionary time, it was like, You were at risk. Yeah, yeah.. And so we are exquisitely sensitive to the slightest like Ostracization. Yes. like uh oh. We're about great to get kicked out. Yeah We're about to get kicked out. Yeah. And our brains will read cues like crazy. Turns out we're not terribly good at reading the cues. No Be most of our safety issues are psychological, not. I mean, there are some real an of you're in danger. Yes. Psychological danger is every bit as real to your brain. Yeah. And so it's okay. It's like, okay, look, I feel I feel like I'm in danger And it's like just being aware. it's it's like being aware And being a little like generous with yourself, like, o, this is how my brain works, right? And it's good for survival Not so good for thriving? Yes. And your brain doesn't care that you're happy. This is what I always like like, you want to be happy? Your brain does not care. Your brain has one goal, which is survival. Yeah. That's it. That's gonna to override everything. unless you're a particularly strong character Exactly. The examples of strong character in popular culture are interesting. Well just culture in general. You've either got people that stick their head above the parapet and say the thing that no one else is saying. If we look at like the emperor's new clothes kind of fable, in those situations When one person puts their hand up and says, this is bullshit or I don't agree We often see a collective assault on that person. They're cancellled, they're gone. I mean, sometimes people are saying unbelievably awful things. but if they truly coming from a place where they believe There is injustice or something's not right Oftten we see that person cancellled or everybody's against them or whatever situation it is and we think, oh God, I'm never doing that.. There is no way I could like I've just seen that happen. I'm just going to keep quiet over here and it silences us further. Yet on the other end of the spectrum, we get people who pop up in culture like David Burie Somebody that decided to dress with a big, you know gold circle on his head and huge big circular trousers or orange moohawk, nobody else was doing that And he at that time thought I don't care. I'm going to do the one thing that nobody else is doing. and he was celebrated What the hell's going on there? This actuallyually these are related in ways that are really important It's why we literally Gravitate toward authenticity. Yes. It is so attractive becausecause we're just like, I wish I could do that. I wish I dared to do that. You don't even want to be him. You want to be like him. Yeah. You want to be around him becausecause there's just something magnetic about people who are like, again, you're not an asshole. It's not like this it's not being contrary just to be contrary. Yeah. Like it's just like, he's he's doing his thing. And he clearly likes it. He's not doing it for you, right? And there's something so attractive about so attractive about it. They're my favorite people. Yes because you Tilda Swinton's, you David Bowy's like, I want I want that. Just like, You know, I love sports and like we see peak human achievement and you're in awe We're in awe of people who live authentically. Yeah because it's hard And we really want that deep down. and yet like how quickly we're just like, but I don't want to It's too costly to me. I can't. Like I wantna belong. I don't want to like accept the fitting in. Is authenticity always hard It's not once it becomes habit. Think about everything. It's like when you change any behavior, it's hard at first. Yeah.. J not because what you're going to is wrong Or this it's just because your brain is just trying to be efficient. Yeah, rightight. And it's like, well, wait, this has worked for us so far And you're like, yeah, but I'm not happy. And again, remember, your brain doesn't care.'s like, we're still alive. What's the problem? right? And you're like, but I'd like to be more.? I'd like to grow, I'd like to have a purpose. I'd like to have good relationships. All of those things, all the stuff that makes for a good life in one form or another requires highigher levels of authenticity And what's so interesting is like if you take relationships. The best relationships in research are ones based on authenticity and the promotion of that. which is just a fact. The best kind of groups are ones that engender real belonging. If you're a part of something, you're like, Like that's like your ride or die group where you're just like, it doesn't matter. And that doesn't mean your ride or die group isn't a group of people that We all agree. No. because I think that's the fundamental difference. You know, I honest's going to be But there's people that I know. Not that honest. And exactly it's like, well in this conversation. But if you can't trick me with that one, there's cameras. But if they're look, I know people and they're in a group and it's like, oh, they're my people We all al like like we all agree and it's like is f Is that it? Because if I think about one of my best mates There's tons of issues we don't agree on. We can chat about them, not even in an argumentative sense But I know that we fundamentally disagree on certain issues, but I love the bones of this person and they love me. And we can rub along together just fine. So one of I think most interesting things in the research on this that It just isn't intuitive until you say it out loud So we like to think We want everyone to agree with this. Now, look, nothing wrong with that. When people agree with you, that feels good. Yeah It turns out that's not really the primary motivation. It's actually that you want to be understood. And that's the difference. If you think about the person you're like, I know we disagree on these, but I Yeah, yeah I would almost guarantee you without knowing anything about that person He listens willll actually be like, okay, look I don't agree but I know where you're coming from. Yeah And it's like it turns out that's what we're after because to not be understood is one of the worst things, right? It's like you can't even order your life. It's like, wait, am I crazy or like start to feel like you're losing your mind. So So you need some social comparison, be like, am I in reality here And so Like the ability to be understood is the real foundational thing. Now, if someone agrees with you, that means they understand you.. So we just we conflate those though. So when you realize, okay Rather than just say, you know what? L I want the relationship. So I'm going to agree, I'm going imitate. I'm going to be you basically. I'm going to change my opinions realize you didn't have to go that far to get that and they don't need that from you. But that active listening, that willingness to be like, no, I care enough about you to actually want to know you. Yeah. And like, wow, I don't here tellell me where You know, interesting, you believe X. that's not where I'm at, but I'd love to know like where did that come from?? Like what led you It's like Okay, like let's take something like in the states where we always argue we like abortion. It's like, listen, reasonable people can agree. It's like but we've gotten the place where it's like on one side, you're a baby killer. The other side, you hate women. Yeah. And you're like There are people like that But most people, it's way more complicated. Of course. Right. And so it's like, ask about like how didd you arrive at that?? And you're like, oh wow, nine times out ten, you' be like, oh, wow, okay, so if I had that experience down the empathy Yes If I had that experience, I could see how you could arrive at that position. Well, this is the thing. I think in today's society, we feel we have to have an opinion on everything. And there are many issues where I'd put my head up and go, I don't know enough or I don't have that personal experience. And I could probably spend a day looking at many different you know articles or case studies and go, o, I could probably work out with my set of values and experience what I believe. But a lot of the time we just think I must have an opinion. And actually you say in the book, one of the best things you can do is just say I don't know about that. that's get curious about it. That's a beautiful First of all, it's okay to not have an opinion. Yes. But notice how when I want to manufacture consent, when I want you to fall for the collective illusion to control you The best thing I do is make it moral So it's not that you're wrong, you're bad If you don't right? Like uninformed now is like you're the devil. Yes. And so it's like we but it's very persuasive to be like isn' so what do you mean you don't know You don't know about this latest thing that's the most important to me that I only knew about for a week, right And now I'm out here marching. Yeah. Like, how dare you? Yeah Like you're like, wow, okay. so now and then next week it'll be another thing. Yeah what you brought up, It's like the nice thing is is It turns out that number one, it's a great way to detect collective illusions You know what? I actually I don't know enough yet Tell me more So interesting. You're so excited. you said Everybody knows we're voting for this person. Oh, interesting. I haven't made up my mind yet. Yeah. What do you like about them? And what's funny is, if it's an illusion, if they're just copying They'll do something like lookook, everybody knows Everybody knows like it's like, no, no, why are you? Yeah? So that why is such a valuable tool. Yeah. You're like, okay, they don't really know. They're just going along. It's a good lpmusest and also it means you don't have to be full courageous and going Well I don't agree with you all somebody you're using curiosity to diffuse it, which is so interesting. That's the best thing. And so the nice thing is from the social psychology research is you don't get punished for not having opinion by the group. In fact, groups will start to try to persuade you. So it's a way to know. it's like, Oh, wow, okay, hold on So I'm like, no, tell me ell tellell me more about this because I don't really know enough yet Oh, if it's there real views, they get excited. They want to share. Yeah. And you're like, oh, and by the way, you be like, Wow, thanks that's actually persuasive. I actually agree with you. Yeah ye So you're learning and then you can's like, okay, so now at least I know this is really what you think because you're giving me plenty of explanations, justifications ool I'm learning If you say, look, I'm just not sure yet. I don't know or I don't know enough It's such a good escape valve for other people. Yeah. So like, oh, we can say that. Yeah. I't get my mind either. It's interesting.s exactly. And you'll see it spread. The best thing about the counter to Coective illusions is one of the most beautifully powerful things ever, which I've definitely been the receiving end of. I certainly try and be action in terms of this too where there's a situation that no one's talking about. O I don't know None of us like being embarrassed or having a secret fear in our heads. If there's one person brave enough to go and I did this or God, well this thing happened to me or I've got this health issue or something that you're nervous about because on a social level, it's not acceptable or nobody talks about it. It takes one person, your group, or if it's on a big platform to say done this. I've, you know, I've got this regret for everybody else to go and just to s Be we look around and we just assume, o everybody else is perfect. they're nailing life and they've got no issues. They've never made a mistake before. Oh shiny celebrities, they've never gone wrong. And actually every single person has got secret worries and fears. They're just humans They're hum just humans and it is the most Pful incredible moment to just have that dismantled immediately. So the dismantling of collective illusions is beautiful. It is and it happens so fast because they' social lies. Yeah. rightight. So it's not that we have to change someone's mind. It's that you reveal for them they believe is what we believe. Yeah. And so It's like, and it only happens through social proof. Yes, right? It's just And it's people I admire. So I said, when, you know, the David Bowie, you're like Oh, okay You know, and I want to go back though, your point about how like when one person breaks with something If I'm trying to control a group under a collective illusion That first person to go against it has to be punished And it's not even about them. it's the head on a pike phenomenon. Right. So now it's a warning to you. this will happen to you and we're like Holy cow. Yeah. o don't. So it's like It's but all it so it really just takes one person to start cascade if you want to break this It's what happens immediately next? Do you come to the defense of the one person Right? Once it's two, it's over Wow, it's literally two and it's done two and it's done because because now it's a group Now I can join a group M You know it's not just one. So one person can start to break it And the more like your' David Bowie, now that that's got pros and cons, right? One, it's cool. I'm like, and you kind of like addmirable. I wish I were like him He's also up here You know what I mean? There's a bit of like Right. And if I was famous and I had a lot of money, then I could probably too, but I'm not. Yeah. right. And I have to worry about what people think because I have this job and I have so it's like that goes They can show us a way. But it's not as powerful social proof as people like me Yeah. And this is important because it means that each one of us has way more power to shatter illusions than we ever imagined. Yeah. because you having that courage to just be authentic Again it doesn't mean you're with respect, with love wanting to be understood and wanting to understand You're like, look, I care enough about you to tell you the truth about how I feel. Yeah. I respect you that much the amount of effect that that has under illusions is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Even if you look at how the landscape in the mental health sector and how that permeated into everyday conversation whereas, you know, twenty years ago very few people would talk openly about their own mental health struggles. If I look at my nan, for instance, who was in a day cyc wd a lot and it was all, you know, nobody really talked about it in the family and I only really found out about that When I spoke to my mum actually in this setting And I started to really unpick her mental health or whatever. But it was you know a subject shrouded in shame and nobody would discuss it. and you'd see that in terms of, you know, popular culture and how we talked about it in the workplace, that if you had anything, you know, with your brain going on, it was just We don't talk about it. And now you see, you know, so say when I was working at BBC Radio one, nobody talked about mental health and I was really struggling at the time, but I didn't feel like there was any space to say I feel like I've lost my marbles. I am absolutely disconnected from my body and I know what's going on. Whereas now, I think if you were struggling there, you could say to somebody without any judgment or Just any commentary other than Let's G get you help. That has changed massively. and even if we look at like smoking back the day. I just smoked because everyone else smoked. It was so normal. you go to a pub, it' the smokiest atmosphere ever and I just have more bite, lovely. Now it's like, o my god, someone's smoking. What are they doing? you know? Well you're shang. The mental health one is such a good example. So We have dat in the states is, you know again most of our datas. So this is one of those where the collective illusion now has gone the other way. It used to be like, so when we ask people who have suffered a mental health issue in the last five years, for a long time, people would say privately. Yes, and then publicly say, No ood And it would be like twice or three times as many in private than were willing to say, right? Beuse you just don't say it's shameful. That has changed. So with with Gen Z The pressure is actually to say you've had a mental health episode So their public report of it is higher. It's still high in private Right But it's now going the other way., which is kind of how how it course corrects, Rightight they'reing almost all the other way to admit that you've struggled. Yeah, yeah, whichich is kind of funny, right? So spring Olympics. So, yeah, it's like now, it's like o Okay, so let's dialie that back just a little, right? And then we'll be in the middle. We don't need to compete for the most ye But so to your point like how interesting they can change. And it did take brave people. being the first to say like, no, it's fine. And usually those are people with high social status. Yes that can sort of kick startart it and kick startart it. But until it's like, oh, but like my neighbor T, right? That's when it That's like me. Doable. They live in the same circumstances. They've got the same struggles and they're talking about it. Yeah, it's okay to talk about it. I think there's something really liberating about knowing that these collectives can change over time. And you know, I remember like back in the day, Just everybody would go to the supermarket and you'd take your shopping home in a plastic bag and no one battered an eyelid. You wouldn't think there was anything bad about it. We didn't know we're uninformed. And then over the years as you you gather education, you go, o God, these plastic bagds end up in the sea and then animals could end up swimming in them. this is not good. And then systems change and paper bags are brouought in and now we look back and think, oh my God, how many plastic bags did I put in the ocean myself feel agghast about it. I think it's really liberating to know that these things can change. So if you feel like your values aren't aligning with the norm currently, in a hundred years time, I sadly we'll be dead, but in the future that won't be the case. And I think it's really important to know that these things change and move. Yes. And so they change even when they're true, right? So when you're like I don't like this particular norm. I don't like how we do this. and that is true. Those can still change. That's This is even Crazi, right They might not even believe this anyway. Yeah. So like it can change now. Yes. The rate of change under colloective illusions historically is like shocking how fast whole societies change. when the spell is broken. Yeah. It's like in the states, the marriage equality movement, such a good example. Yeah. in from two thousand three to twenty seventeen fastest change in public opinion ever recorded. Wow. It went from thirty percent approval publicly gay marriage to seventy percent. Wow. And the trick was is that it's because back in two thousand three, so there was a community, I believe in Chicago, I probably might get that part wrong. the geography of like academics and activists Okay, how do we advance gay rights and they're like, whatever you do, don't push for marriage because the public's not ready for it turned out wasn't true. So there was private opinion data that showed there was a slim majority of, I'd call like the love as love crowd liibertarians who were like, I don't care what you do. You know like none of my business. Yeah. So a small group of activists realized, oh, this is a collective illusion. It's not, we could win here. Yeah. But so rather than try to persuade everyone, o, you should care. You should want people to get married, they went to Hollywood and they started using a culture to actually break the illusion. Yeah. And it's so powerful. How incredible So so you combine like Will and Grace you know, modern family did this really well. And it's not in your face. it's just It's normalized. Yeah. And so there's a funny thing about So when we think about social proof. it's people I admire, peopleople like me so we have a role to that And then cultural artifacts Because just like we can take old civilizations that are long gone and reverse engineer their values from the artifacts they look.. Our brains use this now to read what do we believe? The stories we tell ourselves, the movies, the music, the TV shows has so much impact on us. So much impact. And it's the technical term for is like we have parasocial relationships. Right with celebrities, with fictional characters. Yeah. It's so crazy. If you take a TV show that you really like, your brain treats those characters as part of your in group. Wow. Even though you know they're fake. Oh my go. So things that are said in that context have an outsized effect on what you believe your group believes. So we've done this work. so we have these partnerships in Hollywood where we give private opinions. like, look, like we deserve to know each other and we deserve a transparent culture. So we'll give you the private opinion on things and just put it into the shows. Wow. And so I'll give you an example. So one of the biggest illusions we've ever found, which is kind of crazy, is how people define a successful life. It is wild. We've looked at dozens and dozens of trade off priorities you could have. So it be like the richest person you know to having a family, everything in between. in private, the kind of lives people want to live t remarkable. They're really good people. Like they want to contribute, they want to be in relationships. They want to have character. It's like, you're like, o, these are people I'd want to live around then when you ask them, well, what do you think most people think? They think everybody else cares about status and that's it. Yeah. withith fame being like the number one thing. So privately, we're all actually really the same. Oh it's But We assume that everybody else is like so so it's in private, overwhelming majority of people think success is positive some Your win can can benefit me. Yeah. it doesn't just because you won doesn't mean I have to lose. Yes, exactly. But we think everybody else thinks it' zeroome.ow. That's crazy.. And we think everybody else wants be famous as the number one thing wants wealth and power wants to go to the most prestigious universities. So it's all this comparative zero sum stuff. Yeah in private They're all at the bottom ten percent Okay, so now imagine this Nothing's more important than living the kind of life you want to live Societies thrive when most people are getting to do that. And it doesn't matter what else you do, it says people are miserable Right? You get the kind of situation we see all over the world right now So how sad is it that look, I want to live a good life, I want to be successful, but I also want you to think I'm successful. There's nothing wrong with wanting people to acknowledge accomplishments But if I think that you only see success as fame, I can make choices that optimize on getting your approval. Yeah then devalue what you actually think. And what we find over and over again. So we also measure how people are doing on those priorities and then correlate that with broader life satisfaction. It turns out that If you inccrease achievement on your priorities Okay ost people are only about fifty percent of their priorities at best. If you bump that up to seventy, which by the way, isn't hard if I want to be in a good relationship. I want to be a good person. I want to literally be in my community is the top ten priority for people. Yeah, you can do that You know to be rich or famous to do that.ike you can just show up and do it, right actually corresponds to an increase in life satisfaction That's the exact same as getting a fifty percent pay increase. W. It's that big of a deal Aversely No amount of achievement on what other people care about translates to any increase in life satisfaction. I can imagine. I've interviewed so many people in this exact chair who are top top, top of their game and they are no happier than like my best mate from school who has a regular job. I see it A and again like that collective illusion is crazy. So understand it. And don't you think like you're like, you should be happy. We look at these people and you're like, how are you not happy it's load ofbols Yeah. And it's also that I don't know if you have the same phrase in the States, but we have a thing here keeping up with the Jones. So your next door neighbor, you're like They've got hanging baskets, I better get hanging baskets. They've done a conservatory on the back of the house. I bet you know, and actually nobody gives a shit. like nobody s This message is brought to you by the Capital O Venture X card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a three hundred dollars annual Capital onene travel credit for less than you expect. 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Learn more by visiting acast dot com slash advertise There's one thing in the book that I have to ask you about. You say in the book that you see the collective illusion as an existential threat. That's huge to say that. Why'd you think that? Because I'm dramatic No here's here's here's what I mean by it So far, we've talked about the personal consequences, right, which are important enough. And if that's all there was, it's enough to say correct. You should steer toward authenticity. There's ways to inch toward that without you know jumping all the way in, but it will pay dividends in a hurry and it's worth it just for that. You'll live a better life. Yeah, I promise Now let's think about collectively So One of the biggest consequences of these collective illusions is plummeting of social trust. And social trust might be the single most important thing for the cohesion of any society that we've ever discovered. And all that is is My gut feelilling whether most people can be trusted And you think about that If I don't think most people around me are trustworthy. Yeah. what does that do for how I treat them, how I expect to be treated? It's Lord of the flies. Yes. And so therefore, I'm like, okay, if I can't trust you, then I have to control you. And then it becomes a race of who gets to control whom? Be and it become hyperaternalistic because it's just like for your own good or no, if I let you make choices, you're going to hurt me So here's what's crazy. So we've seen across the Western society plummeting of social trust. In the U.S, we have the lowest levels ever recorded It' it's been in state decline since the thirties. It's crazy. If you look at like Scandinavian countries, other places have higher levels of social trust When you get above like fifty percent, So a majority of people think a majority of people can be trusted. Yes so many things get easier. Yeah. right? We don't have to be the same in every way. If I trust you It's okay that you have a different opinion If I don't trust you, then all I have left is, well, we better agree and people don't agree are our enemy because they're going hurt us, right The single best predictor of social trust is perceived shared values. Yes. Okaykay So If I told you in private Most people share pretty fundamental values. It's pretty shocking how similar we are. These values now sit under collective illusions, so we don't think it's true Well, if I don't think it's tr It becomes not true. Yeahep. Right. So now I'm looking around going wait, just take the success one If you actually think that most people around you are this like zero sum hyper comparative They will step on you to get ahead Why would you trust them? No, and also you'd start to mimic their behavior because you're like got it. I'll have to. Yeah. L if to survive. in fact, behavioral economics is pretty clear on this. likeike in a positive sum game If other people are playing it as zero sum, you have to play to zero sum. you'll get taken advantage of So now I have to behave this way becausecause I think that's the only way I get ahead. Yeah. But now I'm behaving that way and that's proof to you that I believe that. So now you feel like you have to do that too. Yeah. And we all literally just keep perpetuating the lie. And so The nice thing is is what we see is when people start being a little more authentic and we start revealing shared values What you see instantly is the boost in social trust. Yeah. And once that starts to come up We don't have to agree on everything anymore we start cooperating a little bit better and the flywheel works in favor of us. So if I could wave a magic wand, like Social trust, moving that needle is the most important thing you can do in a society. Is that what you mean by in the book you say, you know, if we look around the world at the moment, We could literally go on any news outlet and think We are in dire straits. The world is bleak. You say the answers are hiding in plain sight. Is this what you mean? Yes, it is. L. it's and what's funny is I mean, obviously, from a media perspective There is some incentive whether they mean to or not We have negativity bias, like outrage cells. So like we're getting fed things that don't necessarily reflect reality. There' a narrative around it But it's like Yeah, there it's beyond traditional media, the social media stuff is just a disaster for this. like It doesn't matter if there's any manipulation, you are gonna be under collective illusions, just being on social media because it allowd us voices Yeah But you add to that. So my organization, we work with other organizations and government agencies looking at weaponization of collective illusions. other countries. So in particular, Russia, China and Iran figurered this out were're so clever. So they have million bot armies millions and millions of fake accounts and now they're AI enabled and The whole point is to manufacture collective illusions to get you to believe that your group believes something they don't. Yeah. And so it's so It's so sophisticated, it's kind of shocking propaganda is now so easy to cultivate. And we tend to think propaganda, we're like, oh, it's disinformation. It's not. Disinformation is not terribly effective I'm going to convince you that your group believes something that it doesn't And then your conformity bias will kick in And you'll be out there protesting something you don't even understand and certainly didn't believe, but you're pretty sure that's what we believe. Yeah. And so it's very easy. So like for example, the research shows that on social media If only five percent of your interactions are with bots bots can completely determine group consensus. Cervatively One quarter of all your interactions on social media are with bots and you don't know it. That is shit scary. It's And they're so good. So they'll swarm an opinion and boost a fringe opinion. That's the first thing they do One crazy person has some stupid idea We should defund the police. they' like, I think we should Reform it, but I don't want social workers showing up. I sometimes I need the police, right? The seems ye Yeah yeah. ye. They'll repost it, retweet it. so it feels like it'll feel like it's viral. and like, wow, I'm seeing this on my feet a lot Second thing they do with the bots is The first three comments on a comment thread contontrol the entire comment thread. So you post something or you you like something If they want to encourage it We'll come in and immediately reinforce it in the comment section And if the first three positive That'll determine the tone of the whole comment thread. Wow. And you'll feel like, o, you know what? I saw that. I think Hey, this is what we believe. I posted this. Yeah. And look, people are saying I'm really smart and courageous and wonderful or you posted the wrong thing. They'll attack you in the comment thread They buds. Yeah They're not real human beings. It's wild. So this is what I mean when I say it's an existential crisis, right? We're losing in a war we didn't know what we were fighting And There's no real policy solution. There's no technology solution It's a human problem. Yeah. And so I would say, whether it's for your own sake Authenticity matters. Yeah Yeah If all you cared about is part of the grou This might be the most important thing you could do for the groups that matter to you Yeah, because We are suffocating under these social lies. And it's tearing apart societies And we don't function And it does, it feels like all over the world, the wheels just fell off Yeah, it does. And so I would say those we have real problems When you get under the hood past just what people will say out loud. you would be heart wararmed to know, we haven't lost our humanity. We just think we have That is the most beautiful thing to realize because I think most people wake up in the morning and feel dreaded looking at the news feel distrusting and do assume that mainly because of what we've just said there about the bots and there's no governance over how social media works and how we're bombarded with information, stories, narratives, if you're wrong, you're right, whatever, that there is the humanness has been extracted via AI. But if We take back control and we actually do believe that people are Good eggs, the majority of people, there's always going to be a few sour grapes over here, but there's the majority of people are good eggs. That gives us hope. and that is so necessary in this case. If you don't h. Yeah, because then why would you do anything Andn get out of bed. And if you knew the most important thing you could do. If you like how do I contribute getting us through this Right? Who am I? It turns out because it's a collective illusion. and social proof is everything You are really important And so for your own sake, but also for our sake Have a conversation online. in real life with your neighbor. at a pub a respectful one. Be honest with yourself. like pretty sure that they don't agree And then when you h theross they go, hu And it's funny is I like to write down like What am I afraid of here What do I think, right? L so because it's so easy to revise your views after you having Oh yeah, I never thought that I mean, oh yeah, no, Roger Of course, Roger agrees. So, you didn't think that. you didn't think that and you're just like, holy cow, I'm just wrong And again, what's awesome is go back to David Boy, Be that person. It's so wildly fucking attractive. Yes. Like and again, it's not an in your face Rude, donon't be an asshole.. there's just something so attractive about people who just are who they are. Yeah It is, it is and it's like It's like we're so afraid of that awkward moment and I love that brother it's just like it feels like the worst thing in the world. It's just an awkward moment. Yeah, you'll get get through it. Yes. And the other side of that is this phenomenal experience of like Hold on I just showed you a part of who I am We didn't leave. didn't go. that's our fear, isn't it? I've heard that so many times with friends, people that I love dearly that I thought I could never tell them this one thing. And then I've tested myself and thought Let me have a conversation about this, like something in my past or whatever And they've stayed and you're like Yeah Oh my God. it's just I'm okay. L I'm all right. You want Yeahah, think about how you feel about yourself. Yeah. that. You know, it reminds me You know, my younger brother, so I grew up in rural America in a pretty conservative religious which is not sort of my way of life now. Yeah. but Quite a while back, my younger brother came out as gay, which that was That was that was before that big change. Yeah ye. And I remember he said something to me that I think has more general ability is you know, when he was struggling with arents and he' talked to me And he said, but look, I said, they love you. And he goes, Yeah They wouldn't if they knew me And so you're living in this lie in this extreme way denying some fundamental part of who you are. I mean, that's an extreme case right? So that's really sad. And in that case, there were reasons to be worried because there were plenty of people in his friend group whose parents disowned their kids.. So that is horrible. very So it's a real threat But the other side of that is The incredible When they accept you, and not only that, they change their view of their religion. They change their view. They chose their son Yeah. and the kind of relationship that they still have and that we all have, And what it must feel like to be like, I just showed you who I am and you didn't leave. Yeah. And so that again, that's an extreme version, but we all live some with smaller version of that. Without doubt. And think's we think the small ones don't matter, but they do.. They do. It doesn't have to be the big things.. It's like when I feel like I have to hide parts of who I am that I value just so you won't leave or just so you'll like me We get the empty calorie fitting in. Yeah. and we deserve more than that I think it's the most interesting topic in terms of Belonging versus fitting in on a very individual basis, how much tension we store in our body. And then when we look at a bigger this on a bigger scale, collectives, groups we fit into, how we feel we fit into society, how we view the world, it's just it's a never ending topic. and've Barely the tip of the iceberg with this one. so I would say to anybody who wants to know more read your brilliant book. look up what you're researching and the studies that you're doing because I think you know, as well as it being an existential threat, it's just something that's so relieving in terms of knowing you can be who you want to be in the world And to fear rejection less because actually it's much less of a threat. M a threat. We actually believe. I would just charge everyone like One authentic thing It doesn't have to be scary, doesn't to the biggest try it. Because here's the thing We're afraid of not belonging. But also what we see all over the world right now is people feel like they have no control I that's terrifying. Yeah You know, remember during COVID Everybody bought Te of Hipper like crazy. That was in part because it was the thing we could do. Yeah, ye. It wasn't expensive. It felt like there was something we could do. And there's a psychologically quite to feel like I'm doing something if it really didn't matter, right? We liter had a run on toilet paper in the States.' so funny. If we just hadadays, would be fine. but we' Yeah, yeah yeah. you don't have those hands. That's Europe thing Yeah. Very, very. I think that you'll experience something even more profound, which is the sense of control over your life that you feel with those small acts of authenticity you'll realize that you can be in charge of your life. It will improve your relationships And because of the collective illusions It might be the single most important thing you could do for society. It's so fascinating. And in the last, you know, over eight years of us doing this podcast, we really haven't dive deeply into this subject matter that seems to be pretty much a foundation for so many other things that we talk about mental health wise, life narrative wise. I can't thank you enough for being on the podcast today. Before we wrap up