Reflecting on success and future projects

The thing with being a young black girl is the world isn't made for you. Hello and welcome to The Happy Place Book Club with me Fern Cotton. You, the textbook say, didn't accomplish anything until Rosa Parks sat on a bus. Today, honey by Amarnie Thompson. Can you be quieter, please? Can you be smaller, please? But the thing about the world not being made for you is you see it for what it is , how the pieces of power slot together . You start to ask why , why ? And you peel back the histories . You learn that the textbooks don't speak to truth . That FR E O M is a word you gave the world Are we really to believe the slavers got a conscience and liberated the slaves? No , because you did that . But power wants people to forget the part you played , the wars of spirit you started , and you understand . That's the game So you learn to play the game, to soften your voice and wear your hair neater . You tell the boys yes, I like it when you touch me like that. You tell the officer, No, sir, I was just walking home , make them think you're one of them . Make them think you're not on to them . But R E V O U T I O N isn't a word of the French the A,mer allicans . It's Caribbean . It's cashew apples sweet on the tongue of Cecily Fatimon . You know this. Malcolm X taught you things . Sojina Truth Taught you things . Ain't I a woman? You ask yourself over and over because if the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone , these women together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right side up again The only difference is Ursa's not interested in right side up or wrong side down . She's well , it's hard to say quite what she's interested in . Call it redemption , call it rage , call it sport Okay, honey is such an incredible debut novel from Amani Thompson. Yeser really doesn't intend to kill anyone, but the Cambridge professor sitting opposite her has manipulated her friend unstolen her research , so when she flicks a bee into his drink, she just thinks he'll get a nasty little sting, but now he's dead and it's a sweet, sweet feeling for Ersa , finally having some control. I love this book because as a debut novel from Amari, I didn't know so much about her writing or the story, so I just got stuck into the book without really knowing how it was going to unfold. And it unfolds in a way that I was not expecting . And it's really clever because it looks at big, big topics that you'll hear about in this conversation with Amani, but it's woven into just a really great intricate story friendship and university life and British culture and guilt and sociopathy. I mean there's all sorts in there . But it's just a really brilliant story and the characters really come alive on the page . By the way, also has a bloody brilliant cover. Obviously it's pink and I love pink and it's got a little beyond the front which, as you've heard from that introduction, is quite a key feature of this story. Right, let's do it. Here's the show I'm Arnie. Welcome to Happy Place and thank you for writing this amazing book which is our pick of the month. Wow, thank you so much for having me and for picking it for the month. And look at this gorgeous cover, which actually matches our studio so perfectly. I feel like it's really on color like this summer. There's been so much pink everywhere and I'm so here for it. It's so good and the font, everything . I absolutely love it. How is that process? Because sometimes when you get a cover presented to you, I'm not sure how involved you wear in it, you can be like, that's not it, but this feels very fitting. It was so good. They sent me this cover and I was just like obsessed. That's it. It was like the easiest. It was so easy because I was so stressed about the cover. I was like, what am I going to do if I don't like it if it's not going to do or? So no and it was the same in the US too, both covers I thought they were so strong the first ones they sent me and yeah, I think the pinned bee is just so smart. I love it. So cool. I mean, this has been, I'm imagining a mad Whirlwind. This is your debut . You're twenty six. twenty twenty se sevenven. , incredibly young to have a book that has just blown up globally . I mean, how are you taking it away? As you say that I'm like, No, it hasn't. Like it has, it's everywhere. It does feel so surreal. I mean, the whole publishing process has been so surreal because I know how difficult it is to get published. So even like getting the agent and then getting the deals , I just keep thinking like surely someone's gonna wake me up from this. It just doesn't feel it's so brilliant. I mean it's amazing. I'm so grateful as well. It's so exciting. And you were writing this whilst working you were working as a bookseller in a bookshop and then writing in your brakes and your free time. How are you? How are you doing? Well, I started writing when I graduated and I had a different job for a while. I was working for a charity in North London . And then I actually kind of got fired, which was quite helpful because for three months, I was like, I had about twenty thousand words at that point and I was like, I'm just going to burn through my savings and finish a draft. And then I started working at Dawn when I was editing and finding an agent. So yeah, most of the editing process happened when I was working as a bookseller. So great when you can look back retrospectively and go, oh that's why I was f ired. That's good. Yeah and actually like see the positive of something that probably stung at the time. Yeah, it's so yeah did stung at the time but now yeah you got a book out of it so because I feel you know I was so grateful to be able to have that time and to have the savings to have that time because if you're working and trying to write, it takes so much to formulate your characters, your plot that the quiet can be just so helpful. Yeah, you want to get totally lost in it and think of nothing else, really. I think I've only obviously written one fiction, but I found when I had other things going on, which was like parenting and a job, I just wanted to be in that world the whole time and sort of get lost in it completely and see obviously there's so many different routes that you can go with a book. And I think when you're really in it, that clarity is just there as to where your character's going, where the plot's going, that's a good feeling. It really, really is. And I do feel sometimes I must be quite annoying to people because emails and stuff like when you're really in the book world, you do feel like you're living in two entirely different realities and then you're like so sorry to reply to a text while I'm like, I'm so sorry because like actually I was off in my mind and my characters were having this whole affair. I'm like, This is going to this and yeah but it's amazing. I love going into the other world. Yeah, well let's talk about this otherworld because we've got this extraordinary protagonist Ersa who this like switch flips in her head where she goes I mean spoiler alert for anyone that's not read it yet but tough tits she starts killing people. She does. And it starts off in it's not an innocent way because she kills someone, but in a way that you know, it was kind of partly accidental and then things really start to build from there . What drew you to a lead character who has that kind of mindset? So I really didn't think I'd write a book about a serial killer. I'm so shocked that this is my first novel . What insights does this giv ing us into your psyche? Like I'm the type of person like if a documentary is on the telly about a serial killer like I leave the house. Same. Like I can't do it. I never listen to true crime podcast. No does not It's different with books. I think it's different. But even then like I didn't read really dark thrillers. I just kind of like serial killers. I was like, that's not one for me to think about. So the reason the book came about is I knew I wanted to write about race and gender politics . I wanted to look at gender based violence. I knew I wanted a black female protagonist . And when I looked at that space, I thought that's tricky. That's going to be a hard sell. I want to try and make this book funny. I want to try and make it accessible. I don't want her to be positioned as a victim in this space, which is then it was like, well, maybe instead of being a victim, she could have victims . So yeah, the idea then came for her like murdering bad men, but murder is a way to do it in sexual feminism. I was like, that's quite fun plot. Yes. And as you said, you've got racism in there, you've got misogyny, sexism, you got these big, big themes, but you managed to weave it into this story, which is also about female friendship and dating and uni life . Was that a tricky mix to get? It weirdly like wasn't that difficult to be, I think because I knew the university world so well. So that was quite quick and easy to build out . And then yeah, it's just like a little sprinkling of murder in there. It's like, okay, what if you're? Lectually, you just went and murdered someone. So no, it wasn't too . I think what I was really keen about doing was balancing the real academic side of the book with this much more plotty , like more satirical side of the book. So I wanted to get that line. Without a doubt, I mean there's so many big points that you're mulling over down the line. It's so fascinating and also it's so interesting to have a character who can be unlovable in many ways because of her actions, but also at times you're re rooting for her because you say they're not nice men. And that's, I think, a tricky thing to master. Yeah, totally, because I knew it's not going to be very interesting or from the off you don't like her . So I took a lot of inspiration from Killing Eve and characters like Villainelle, who were such lovable psychopaths. So I needed her to be very empathetic and relatable in those ways. And like, again, the dating and the friendship really helped build her relatability out. And then with the men too, they're bad men, but I needed them not to be wholly stereotypical. So with some of them, hopefully you should be feeling whilst reading like, oh, you kind of deserve it, but like, didn't you deserve it? I hope yeah. It's so interesting. And you say that she's a narcissist and on the psychopathic scale . So that's an interesting mix to kind of work with again. Do you like her? Did you like her as you were writing her? I do really like her. I feel like she lives so rent free in my head still. Like once I finished writing the book I really kind of mentally closed and said, okay you've got to leave me alone now. But I do occasionally I'm like, oh what would you have to do in this situation? It's not a good thing to think, but it's her it's her humor and also her like willing her commitment to freedom in a way that I that's part of her I slightly respect. But I shouldn't really admit this because she is a terrible person. No, but I think when it's fiction, you can really have fun with those parts of a character that you know you do not have. Like she can walk away from a situation that we can all say on paper is a terrible thing to do and she feels nothing ? Yeah, largely she gets a high from it . And it was really interesting writing someone who culturally really understand her position and how she's been socialized and the power dynamics around her but doesn't emotionally engage in the same way. So there was a liberation to writing her in that. You know, people often say, Oh, was it like cathartic to write the killing of badmen? And none of the violence was very cathartic, but her just her embodiment of her own desires, that was quite a cathetic view to write. I bet. I mean because so often we can't act on the impressions we have or the thoughts that we have. So I'm imagining that was, I mean, writing should be fun, even if I think you're writing something that's dark . It should be this big exploration. Of course, you went to university, you went to Cambridge and you were originally studying English, but then you moved over to study sociology . So you've got that deep curiosity about the human psyche and how the world works and how humans interact with each other, how much of what you did at Uni ended up in this book. So much of it, I mean, in terms of just the academic theory itself and that how I quote that, but more so what I love about sociology is it is the why do we do things? You get into the nitty gritty of power structures, where they come from historically, how they've shifted and changed. And that's what Yusa herself is very interested in. It's why she does get a intellectual kick out of this like task that she set herself . So I love sociology for so many different reasons. But I think being a writer, as you say, like going into the depths of a character, it's been so helpful as a topic to study. Is she a character you would want to bring back I don't know about this. Sometimes I feel like there's no sequel in me, but I do occasionally think like could there be a prequel with her mother and her grandmother because I feel like they're very interesting women. Yeah, exactly. Just like see what the root of this was why she's turned out the way that she has. That could be fascinating. If you were to just go off in a totally different tangent now and write a book totally unrelated or maybe you already are. I don't know. Yeah . You are, of course. Can you tell us something about that? Any themes? Yes. So there's no serial killers in Book two. It's set down in Dorset where I grew up and it's also set in the near future and it's looking at the climate crisis, migration, questions of having kids in these uncertain futures . So yeah, quite different. Again, and it's interesting too because Honey is so set in a place in time. There are so many cultural references. But in this book I'm writing now, it's I don't date anything, so I can't play with those cultural references in the same way. So it's been I've really enjoyed writing something so different. I bet massive topics to get your teeth into. Yes, I don't I don't pick easy topics but to me writing isn't about finding the answers necessary to all the questions. I write as a way to kind of write through what I don't understand and just try to explore it. And I know people say about honey, like the ending's a little bit contentious , but I wanted to answer these big questions that I set up. I don't feel that ne'cesssarily the place of the novel. Like that's what academic writing does. It's like here's my neat conclusion . And here I was like, The conclusion is what the reader wants it to be. Yeah, and I think that's so fascinating because the topics in there are so huge and so meaty . I think for people to then walk away from the book having read it and discuss it and that's what our book club is all about and to have their own ideas and thoughts or even discussion points that they can bounce off each other to kind of, you know, chew over it. That's so interesting rather than oh, okay, and the conclusion is this. I agree. Like if someone says to me, I really thought about your book after reading it, like I couldn't stop thinking or trying to figure out. I'm like, That's perfect. That's what I want from an ending. I love that when you've absolutely nailed it in terms of that . So what is your writing process? Obviously, this is your first published book, but I'm pretty sure you've been playing with ideas and writing for as long as you can hold a pen or open a laptop. I have, yeah. What's your kind of process? Is it an idea just lands in your head, then you go with it? How do you write? What time of day do you write? Where do you like to write? I'm fascinated with the process. I am such a routineless person . So when I had those three months when I was just writing, I was like, You know, I'm going to do the artist way. I'm going to wake up and do my morning pages, go for a walk, have my coffee, write five hundred words. I never do this. I procrastinate literally all day long. And then it hits like anything, clean the flap, go to the shops again, whatever it is. And then it hits around ten PM and I'm like, I better write some words on the page. I have not got a personality at Tempi and my brain starts working . This is where my brain really night. I can't wait to night out. And I think I feel like when people live morning people or they like the night it's the quiet kind of day to like settle down like midday I'm like no far too busy there's too many things going on in the world. I can't write anything so yeah I like it to get dark, you like light a candle. I always listen to music as well. Whilst you're writing really. I can't have lyrics definitely really yeah. And if I'm stuck often I'll go and I'll listen to a song and I'll move around to the song to try and get the rhythm and the texture of what I'm trying to do. And does it have to relate to the book or is it a feeling of the character ? It's both. It's like the mood , I write so much based on rhythm. So often it's rhythm that I'm trying to hear and when characters come to me, it's like the rhythm of the voice that I hear from them. And then I kind of it's hard to explain, but I know when I'm writing if I'm on beat or offbeat. Yeah, it's like you hear the story. That's so cool. I mean, you can totally see that. There's bits of the book where you could have a big old chunk and then you've got a few little separate sentences and then it's like almost poetry in places. It's beautifully rhythmic. Thank you . Wow. I love poetry. I read a lot of poetry as a kid as well. And this book is super dialogue heavy, which is what's been nice about writing the next one as well. There's more prose than dialogues. So like, yeah, the rhythms are different, the songs are different that I listen to. Can you think of any songs that really played into writing honey ? I do have a whole playlist. There was quite a lot of Light Nina Smone on the playlist. There was quite a lot of Beyonce. Like Beyonce's Lemon Age was a big inspiration for a lot of this and that kind of like the aesthetic of the book as well I had in my mind. Nina Simone, I want a little sugar in my bowl is one of mine. That's on the play songs of all time. That's on that. It's just there's something about that song that gets me . Yeah, no, I know it's so great. And there was a moment where the song's mentioned in the book actually when she's at home with her mum. And I was riding with my flatmate there and I was like, Oh, I need a song. Like, what do you think it could be that she's listening to? And my friend was like, Nina Simon's, don't let me be misunderst ood. I was like, just that voice, it's just so much behind it. I love it. And you have a certain place you like to write. Are you the sort of person that can write in a cafe? Because I don't understand that. You do. I'm quite a cafe writer. I am definitely I'm near a divergent in a way I must be. I've never been diagnosed but if there is even like a bird tweeting outside, I can't focus. I can't have any sound, but you can do it. London no like I know. That's what I like myself in the cubby. So your people are like making coffee chatting over here and you can focus? Yes. I don't understand. No, I quite like it because I also feel there's something about being in a cafe reading why I better work. Yeah. I like to scroll on and describe it embarrassing It's like this vague social pressure to be like, I've got to do some work. But I also 'cause I spend so much time by myself as well, obviously writing. So it's nice to have the sort of company of people around you in a cafe. Yes, I do understand that. I think when you have sort of like long days on your own, I do, you know, whether it is writing or if I'm researching podcasts or whatever, I can be on my own and I really like my own company or if I'm painting, I love painting. If I'm on my own for a long stretch, I love it, but then I get to the point where I think I actually don't know how to speak any like I think if the postman comes, I won't know how to do that. Like the interaction. Do you have to make sure you get a bit of a balance? I do, yeah, no. I think I can do like max, like a day and a half by myself and then I go quite stir crazy and I'm like, especially if you're so in your head as you say in the work that you're doing, you're like, you know, this is getting bad . And what was the first moment you experienced out in the wild going into a bookshop and seeing honey prominently on a shelf? It was actually so amazing because I went to Dawnbooks and I was with a friend because I knew it was going to be theirs, which was like so exciting to see in the window because my friends who'd worked there had said it . So I was like kind of prepared for this and it was still amazing to see it. And then the friend who I was with, who wanted a book that they didn't have there, so they suggested going to foils because it was pre publication weeks. So I was like, Oh, it's not going to be in any other bookshops. And we walked into like the main flagship foils and it was right there like a huge shelf of it. And yeah, this was actually one of the best moments . I mean what a moment. It was so incredible. Did you buy one just for like the process of taking your book ? I actually didn't buy it. I have to do it. No, I didn't I mean, I signed lots of them and they were so lovely about it in the bookstore and I like facet my family. I was like look at that . Yeah no doubt the selfies. I mean it's like amazing still seeing it in the wild. And my dad happened to be in New York that week and he was hand selling it in Barnes and nobles. poor customer heartbroken. That's too cute. And then he'd like go up and he'd be like, well now you sold out. You've got to order more . So good . I love it. There is something so special about seeing it and especially as it is so utterly beautiful I know. What's the best feedback or comment you've had so far? Ooh, I don't know, one of the funniest was my granddad read the book even though I said please at least I don't read the book. And after reading it, he just goes to my mum, but how does she know these things? Oh, the lesson . I know, so I need to apologize to do everything to him. Totally. That's grandparents. That's their role. That's adorable . Well, look, we are so chuffed to be discussing honey and dissecting it and having people throw out these interesting subject matters and talk about it in our book club. Thank you so much for writing it. I cannot wait to see what you do next and read your following books because it is utterly genius. Marnie, thank you so much for being a happy place. I forgot the most important question. Yes. Where is your happy place ? Oh , oh probably down in Dorset or about Well, I've been thinking one of the beaches, so maybe like Ringstead. Beautiful summer's evening. You know the even, ining just feels so long and endless when you're at the beach, and you got some food and you got your friends. The best. Ringstead's a bit of a local one, isn't it? It's like it's not the tourist beach. I know the local beach. Oh no, I feel like I shouldn't have said it. Just any beach in Daughter pick your beach . That's a beautiful place to choose. Amani, thank you so much. No , thank you . Ah, thank you, Amani. God, sort of intimidated by how Amani is just so un believably clever and driven and articulate and I could kind of be her mum. I mean, maybe not her mum, but just someone in her twenties so impressive and that's not to be demeaning to anyone else in their twenties. Obviously, it doesn't matter about age, but she's already achieved so much having this book published and having such creative genius and writing skill. She's just an absolute wonder. Amani, thank you so much for your time. Right, we're heading into a new month, which of course means a new book for us all to read in the Happy Place Book Club. In July, we're going to be reading Queenie Is Working On It by Candace Carti Williams . Ah this book love it. This is the much anticipated follow up to twenty nineteen's Queenie which, I also loved . This time, Queenie Jenkins is questioning whether she wants kids and being priced out of the housing market in the place she grew up as well as coping with horrible heartbreak . Now these characters I actually messaged her the other day down on Instagram because I said I now walk around the streets believing that these characters are out there . They are so real . I was completely in Queenie's world the whole way through this book. You're going to absolutely love it. It was just great escapism for me. And if you've already read it or you've started it, you'll know what I mean by saying TFL guy has literally lived rent free in my head and I don't like him. Are he wound me up something rotten? You are going to love this book. I would love it if you came and chatted about this gorgeous novel on Instagram. It's at Happy Place Book Club. There's loads more behind the scenes stuff there too from our wonderful authors and we just nerd out about books in general. Right until next time, a massive thanks again to Amani and to you. You're the best you lovely bookworms Happy Place is researched by me Fern Cotton, the producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios