Creative Outlets and Therapy

Hello and welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that builds confidence through creativity. Today I'm chatting to Joseph Fes. It's a very human condition, doubt. It's a beautiful condition, doubt and fear too, but as long as it doesn't rule you and I think that I certainly have it, but if I'm really connected, And if I'm really joyous in what I'm connected to, it kind of evaporates. but If I'm not connected and I don't find a joy within the creativity, then it emerges. If I can't get to do that meditative creative moment I'm complete lost I'm stressed I'm garly. I kind of, you know and prickly I mean, what a treat to chap to Joseph Fes. I am so buzzed about this conversation. He's an actor that I've obviously grown up watching. I'm very much a Shakespeare in love era person. I was a teenager when that film came out But also I'm riveted by people like Joseph who have always remained firmly at the top of their game in the acting world, not only on the screen, but also in the theatater I am fascinated by theatre actors. I love going to the theatre. I don't go that often But I do love it. I haven't been probably for a couple of years now but I'm weirdly going to the theater tonight to watch dangerous liaisons Now I like going to the theater because for instance, like this evening, I know nothing about dangerous liaisons. I've not seen the film, the film adaptation that was out, maybe that was in the nineties as well and I've not read much about it. So I'm sort of going in with fresh eyes and ears to this very well told story And also, I like anything that takes me out of my own head and life off my phone. And the theatre seems like a real old school discipline where you have to sit, usually in quite an uncomfortable chair concentrate on something and you get to learn about life with storytelling, learn about yourself, but I just like the fact that it's an old school discipline. so I feel really excited that I'm going to the theatre tonight. And of course, Joseph has had an incredible theatre career and we get into that within this conversation. You might too have first been introduced to Joseph in Shakespeare in Love Back in the day, or maybe in the Handmaid's Tale, which I've only just started watching. I'm very delayed on that one, but my God it's good Now he's playing so phenomenally. I can't tell you, Gareth Southgate in a new BBC show, Dear England. And in fact, he played this role before on stage. It started as a show at the National Theatre, which is where I'm going tonight, before being adapted for the TV. So we talk about what it is that he sees in Gareth, his demeanor, his compassion and vulnerability that he really relates to. And when I tell you that he transforms into Garth Southgate in every conceivable way I'm not exaggerating. You have to watch this TV show. He is genius Podcast powers the world's best podcast Here's a show that we recommend What if you laughed all through your commute? or if you heard the funniest story while at the gym Well, now you can. I'm Jamita Jamil and guests on my new podcast, Wrong Turns share their most mortifying and hilarious disaster stories. I'm talking people like May Martin, Bob the Drag Queen, Catherine Ryan, Jake Johnson, Margaret Cho, Simon Pegg, Penn Badgeley, and so many more. So listen wherever you get your podcast Wrong Turns Dignity goes to die A cast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast. com Right, let's do it then. This is the show He Joseph Fnes, welcome to Happy Place. What a treat to have you on the podcast. How lovely to be with you here. Thank you for having me. It's a Monday morning. We are starting the week. I mean I've would admit to you that I'm slightly hung over and I'm not usually that person. It's very unprofessional of me. I think you're absolutely. You work so hard that if there's ever a day off, it's a Sunday and why not sip you knowies It was a suny It was a sunny day. It was a sunny day, but I'm on it and I'm ready for this podcast. And I need to start by saying How much joy I got from watching Dear England. Did you see it Oh my go God. I've only seen an episode when I was allowed a sneaky I thought the theatre. you saw that you saw in the the there show. Yeah You saw that TV show I and I'm not somebody I'm that kind of football fan that I'll watch the big England matches and get involved in the excitement. but I don't know so much about football I was so invested in every bit of this story. It's just Pure joy from start to finish. Yeah. I was like cheering watching it. Oh, that's great because there was a worry when we did the well for me anyway, probably not for those involved That effect was very much part of the theatre production and the audience came in and had the national where we first started the Dear England experience had a demographic that they had never been to the theatre before. so you got young kids with mums and dads and daughters with. It was totally right across the board and it was a demographic they hadn't seen. and it brought everyone a community together. And I was just a little bit nervous at how can we do that? Well, they've done it because it's people that are much more talented than me, writers, directors, producers. So it's great that translates. Oh without a doub. But I can imagine because obiously on the stage. You've got that audience interaction. you can feel, o, this is going down well. People are cheering at this point. there's that euphoria whereas the translation on screen, it's much harder to know how that's going to land with an audience Yeah Yeah. I mean it's much more drama based I mean, theatre was quite broad at moments very broad comedy. There's a sort of inkle in the eye with the TV, but it's not quite so broad. I mean there's the fun kind of thing of these characters that we know that' being portrayed whether it's Gareth or Cane or Sterling. But once you get over that you know, sense of who's who and how much they might or might not look like those people that we're so familiar with. You get into really interesting subjects beyond just football. So football is this lens in which we look at the kind of The psyche of the nation, the identity of the flag and what that might mean if you're playing and if you're a second generation player in England, how does that translate to you with all the ghosts of what that flag might represent? racism or kind of toxic environments that young men have to kind of bite their lip and button down and endure. And so Gareth really brought this amazing quiet revolution into the England squad which was all about a kind of vulnerability, which is something you could never have in that place. It would be weak. So he went into a different place with the help of this amazing woman Well, I'm very, very lucky that I've not only had Garth Southgate on the podcast, but I've had Dctor Pipper on the podcast too.. So watching it we all g downhill, I'm sorry Not at all. But I actually messageed I DMed Pipper afterwards and said Oh my God, this must just be so surreal for you, notot only having your story told on stage, but then to watch it on a TV show and to see the impact that she'd had and at first quite quietly. you know when she came on the podcast, it was quite a few years ago now She wasn't a known figure. You know, obbviously Gareth was so brilliant at bringing her into the fold and including her in rewriting the story of the England team and getting them to psychologically think differently. but wasn't public knowledge necessarily. that kind of that story came out later down the line. So I think for her it must just be the most surreal but amazing stamp, like a seal of approval. likeike Yeahah, we did it. we created a great chain here. Yeah, she did and she's I mean, we had her in rehearsals, which was an amazing thing, a real gift to have her come in U And she's obviously so incredibly versed in what she's gifted at doing but doesn't necessarily want to take a front seat. and so it must have been very difficult because she was the success through penalties and the psychology of tackling penalties, which is a big metaphor in itself for England She She got pulled out and identified by the press and suddenly she was in the forefront veryy much a point of focus groom staff don't really ordinarily want So I think it was probably quite big for her to deal with that and then to have the play that looks at her relationship with Gareth and the players So I wonder did you speak to her after she had seen after the play had? She hasn't seen the TV show yet, but obviously she's seen the play. Gareth hasn't seen the play, right? Fr From what I understand he hasn't he worked with he didn't work, but he met with our writer James Greham the FA a number of times so was incredibly kind and instructful but wouldn't come to see the play. I did hear that maybe Family members saw it and approved and Weirdly about several months ago, I'm an ambassador for what was the Prince's now the King's Tust And there was these awards for these young entrepreneurs and it was at the South Bank and I was just about go on stage looking at the card, thinking,, I hope I get these names right, whoo's won the award? And there was a tap on my shoulder. I thought,s the bloody how out? I'm just about to go on. And I turned around and it was the weirdest out of body experience where there was the face that was me, but not me that I'd been inhabiting for two years lookingooking right close to me, you know more than half a meter away And he just went, Ellen I thought he was going to say, what were you doing? How could you represent me like that? But he was the most kind, lovely gentleman and it was lovely to meet you. love. He's so nice. He's such a good egg. And your portrayal of him, at times I sort of forgot it was you. And it wasn't and the skill, obviously in your incredible career that you've had has enabled you to get to this place by no means doing an impersonation, you just are Gareth Southgate. Like the tone of your voice The mannerisms, it's so bizarre to watch. I mean, do you kind of I don't know what your method is exactly, but do you feel like you are him when you're either on stage or on the screen playing him? Yeah, on stage it's easier to get away with it because there's no close up and camera and as, you know, if you can slightlyudge it if you' squint, it's gonna yeah that's Gareth. But you can't escape on film And so that was always a bit that was a an area of concern for me, because you want to att least get the audience to get over that conceit so they're not hung up on E. It doesn't work. You want to get them through that But Gareth Weirdly is only character that's just come hurtling landed right there. without having to dig for writing biographies or going through kind of various Yeah methodologies to get to the character I did watch a lot of Let's go sports hours and hours of these interviews, which actually give nothing away because they're told just to, you know say it's a game or two halves and that's it. you know, so you don't really get there. And actually the best thing to do to get to characters is talk to people who know them because they'll never tell you how they are Um So there's a bit of that where he just came naturally. I do you think that is. L part of your personality resonated with his values or Maybe. I mean, I've grown up with him, you know, being a player and a manager and with England. So he's just sort of been on my radar and somehow has seeped into my psyche and it made it easier. But it's good writing. I have to say, I think it's really good Writing and great thing is it's not about mimicry, it's not really about Gar is this vehicle to talk about other subjects. So I felt a little bit let off the hook right. And what do you like about I guess what Gareth did with the England team, but his sense his view of the world and his set of values and how he went in there very bravely to change something that had been sort of unsaid but set in stone that this is how the England team work and this is how we do things. even though it's not working, this is how we do it. And he went in there and veryery calmly shook it all up hugely. What is it about Gareth as a person that you that you like God, I mean, I don't know him personally, but from what I've learnt and gleaned, I think What I really admire is that sense of challenging the expectations And there's such expectations when it comes to World Cup, when it comes to putting on the England shirt. and there's so many ghosts with the failure of England not bringing it home inince sixty six. And I just thought psychology and approach to take away that expectation. and for rather like for an actor you want to find a certain freedom in your in your craft and that's the same with football. there's You could see it in Russia when it all started to click. they played with such freedom and creativity and I think that's taking away the expectations. And so I loved his game plan and he had come from the under twenty one, so he knew what it was to work with the youth. so he, you know I think he brought in the young players at the right time and he'd probably grown up in dressing rooms where a lot of shouting and kicking bottles didn't really work And I just he was the right person at the right time. all the sensibilities of how to players as individuals and also letting players go is a big thing and to personally phone them or to go and see them or to treat them with respect and understand that they're not just commodities like stocks and shares and not that other managers did that, but certainly there was this this approach which was very different and authentic. I just think he was clearly very engaged and knew that peopleeople needed to be authentically involved in a way that they hadn't been in the past. Yeah, by I guess like bringing emotion into the picture, which, you know, wasn't necessarily part of the football landscape before it was like you're a skilled player, get out there, do your job. And it's maybe even quite a British slash English trait to be stoic and you just crack on with it. And there he is asking young men to journal and to sort of get in touch with that side of themselves, which seems incredibly courageous again And also like you' saying a moment ago, to lose the expectation means to be able and this is where Dr. Pipper comes into play, to face fear And that I think in a sporting arena when you've got the whole globe watching you is very hard to mitigate the fear of failure essentially. What would you say your own relationship is with fear. I mean, I think to certainly from someone that's not done it, but to watch somebody on stage, you can tell there's a vulnerability theyre like this could go wrong at any moment. And you have to, as an actor, I'm imagining you know, stare fear in the face every time you set foot on a stage Every night in a there, you've got a paying audience and you want to do it right. Do you feel the fair still Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and fear can do wonderful things and then very destructive things. I think the main thing is you've got to be completely rooted to your craft and your plan and it's a devil that you have to ask to step behind you And it's always there. it's always like it's a very human condition, doubt. It's a beautiful condition, doubt and fear too. but as long as it doesn't rule you. And I think that I certainly have it, but if I'm really connected, And if I'm really joyous in what I'm connected to, it kind of evaporates. But if I'm not connected and I don't find a joy within the creativity, then it emerges And there's a thing through, I'm in mid fifties now and certainly starting out when I was eighteen, nineteen going on that journey and being lucky enough to go on that journey as an actor be employed, you get to learn these skills and you get to absorb and know how to negotiate fear. And I think about Th eighteen year olds who are on this world stage as footboarders taking penalties in front of millions and millions, you know notot only in the stadium but on televised as well. and how at eighteen do you have the psychology to deal with that It's a huge thing. and it's very easy for people to say, ye, they're millionaires with you know porsches and houses but still they're young boys that have to take on the massive ramifications of the psychological kind of fear and terror of being taking a penalty in front of everyone for your country. So to freedom of that It takes a very special kind of person and possibly a person that was there themselves that went through that. So he's the sort of painter and saint of penalties, if you. I mean, he absolutely is. He talked at length when he came on the podcast about that penalty and the pressure and how it could have taken him down, really afterwards if he hadn't had the right people around him and other opportunities down the line come up But I think to pick yourself back up from that, it's really, really hard. How do you negotiate with fear? I like that term but I wonder what that means because I've had An interesting relationship myself, I think with fear where, I don't know, sometimes I can really use it to my best ability. Every time I sit and do this, there's always a small element of fear because you want to do a good job, you want to keep the podcast going and you want the opportunities to keep rolling in But equally, I've had parts of my career where I've too scared and I've gone I've got to step away from that now actually. I mean, live TV, I still haven't stepped back into doing that since maybe kind of my mid thirties, so ten years ago I was having lots of panic attacks and they seemed to latch on to a couple of things. One was driving on the motorway and I've dealt with that one and I can do that again. The other one was live TV. and I've not felt necessarily inclined to go and face that fear, but equally There is a ppping there still like, it's not safe. No. You can't do it. It's deeply unnatural as well.ep And also your The body's being put through this I mean can the chemicals that must be racing through the body to deal with it is like dealing with a car crash. I mean, it's really intense. I think they even said there was a study on actors and it be the same for presenters on TV that live experience is the equivalent to a mile car crash, what your body and your brain has to go through. Yeah, I certainly felt like that, which might sound overly dramatic or disproportionate, but I think with cancel culture, you know, lurking in the background the whole time. you think even if you say one thing and it you know, you say clumsily or you You react in a way that you slightly regret like we all do in conversation with mates when we're having lunch with people or you're just having a gossip with your friends, you think, Oh God came out a bit wrong. There is no margin for error in that environment when you're riffing, speaking, you hopefully fluently. So I think that to me feels like a no go. So I'm not even at the negotiation stage with that one yet. I'm just like We'll pop that for now But what would that mean to you if you had don't know A roll come up you thought That scares the shit out of me. I'm going to negotiate with this fear. How would you go about that Rles themselves don't. I love a challenge and I've done theatre most of my life. so I love what challenges that theatre offer And that I love and embrace. It's just the moment when it's press night and you're being judged by forty journalists on one night and it all hangs on that one moment and invariably a play unlike a film, but a play really about a month or two after the press night, then it's just rifting.'s it's beautiful. It's well loiled, that's when they should come, but of course then the show's over. But to be judged on that, that sense of being judged is the thing that can kind of jam up against the creative joy. So don't I tend not to read reviews and I don't do any social media. I'm probably talked about in the worst way, but I wouldn't know I'm blissfully ignorant so I can just remain engaged creatively. So But in terms of taking on roles, love I love fightingough more than I can chew But it's only when I'm getting judged that I think, whyy did I do that?? Yeah, it's a horrible feeling. because I think that does then that's the noise that you do need to negate to just do the thing that you actually know deep down, you can do perfectly well, but it's the outside voices that can If you're not careful, get in your heads. So I think it's smart to have boundaries like I'm not going to read reviews I mean, I'm the same if I write a book I don't wantan to read anyone's opinion of it. I've written something that I believe in That's enough for me now. What makes a leader worth following? What should you really care about in your job as technology is changing so quickly? Is it just going be about machines talking to other machines? I mean, should you quit your job and start something on your own? What would that take? What does success and risk look like when we're all at the starting gate together? These are the questions we answer each week on lead human Myers and Tim Spangler. Join us each week and subscribe at your favorite podcast platform and YouTube We'll tell stories, we'll hear from some of the best, and we'll try to figure this out together. I read that your first age experience was woman in black, which I actually went to see. probably it could have even been you. It was in there really? nineties Yeah. And now I went as a kid. No way. I went as a kid my kid.id make it me really old? Well, I was a young kid.. But I remember being shit scared watching that play. is It was terrifying to me as a young kid Brilliant. Do you remember that experience of, you know your first big play as a professional actor, a paying audience, what that felt like stepping out on stage? Yeah, one hundred percent. It was a two hander It was with a lovely actor called Edward Pethentbridge, a brilliant actor tested me quite a few times. he would do these Semingly funny things like adlib, like I've left my umbrella at stage door and he would disappear and leave me on stage for like two minutes. And I'd be like, And then he I found it, and he would sort of have a twinkle in his eye and go see, I'm testing you, young man But he was very, very lovely and smart and it was great to do. it was six months long and it was fairly intense. so I just come out of drama school. I think I left drama school early because I got the gig and which is a bit of a no no, but I escaped. and that was the biggest I think more than just being in front of an audience, that thing of eight shows a week in the West End for six months, you do feel like you're going mad and to get through that was it set me up, I think, in terms of understanding the work ethic and when people pay and you're doing hundreds of performances and you want to deliver to those paying people deserve and keeping that energy up was a real, that was the biggest wake up call. t Re, really tough. To the point when you thought it's not for me or No, I just thought, wow, this is what it takes. It's the Olympics for the actor. I think you know I love film and television. they have their own equally tough kind of demands, but physically and mentally, theatre is like the athlete doing the Olympics. You're demanded at another level that you're you're stretched and demanded relentlessly. So that was the biggest thing. and of course, the audience, but I of I think if you're engaged and you're excited and you're communicating with your fellow actor. I think the main thing is if you stop listening when it all goes to pop So you have to stop yourself on stage thinking about ainbury.sidt do it Becauseuse then you're off. And then you' where am I? And that's I tell you what, when you dry and because you're thinking about something, you're not listening. I can't think of anything worse. It is terrifying. It is terrifying. Absolutely. It's a horror I cannot describe. Oh I feel sick for you, even thinking about a moment like that. Have you had that on stage when you've gone? Oh, it's gone It' plenty of times. do you do just w you kind of I remember at the Royal Shakespeare Company there this amazing actor. He was like the Brad pitt of his day in black and white movies called Griff Jones And he was about ninety years old and he would always play King Priam or something and he had this amazing gr air and he was like six foot four and he just had this presence. But he did forget his lines occasionally. and we and the Royal Shakespeare Company, do like three or four plays in rep so you'd have to know. I mean, it was a time when I would ring up the box office, not sure what play I was doing. So I had to ring the one and go, Could you tell me, what's in this one tonight at seven o'cock they were going? What's Troy iss in Cray. Thank you very much. then they had to go and go Tro. My God But he did this thing with the classics iss easier to fudge your way through it. Really? Yeah, well, because you could he would always have this line, o to ride through Hyperion on a wingered horse And whenever Well, this sounds right. So if it's in Shakespeare, you would just throw that in kind of dry and you go Oh to ride through Hypererian not we good horse ever look at you, but no, they wouldn't know. And then you' kinda get back on it I remember why. So great. O night he came in and he went came in, it was Macbeth or something And he burst through the doors and he went three, score and ten. I' like Griff Griff T's Cris, We're MacPeth or something and you go, Oh o yeah, and then you go back into it. But the classics is easy to fudge it to a degree. I would have thought the opposite because you can't add lib and wing a line. It's got to be Shakespeare sounding, at least. Yeah, if you get it with a bit of a meter, you get away with it. BeCause when we had David Tennant on, I was quizzing him about his Shakespeare play experiences again, he started the Royal Shakespeare compomany W W you Yeah. Oh, I did not know that. Yeah. we did brilliant and as you like it we did, as you like it together And then in fact, the best experience I had at Ral Shakespeare compomany was actually not doing Shakespeare's new modern plays. and we did one called The Herbal Bed with David. Yeah But he said he finds because it's rhythmic Almost song like that he found it easier to memorize the script, which again, I found so surprising, that the rhythm to it allowed the memory to kind of carry it. So true. He's bang on. because we all speak in Iambic, so I think there's a certain amount of beats to a line in English. If I ask you to do a sentence I could probably work out you're speaking in Iambic, the same with the French Well Indian culture is fourteen beats to a lign. this French might be seven or five And so we speak in Iiambic. It's a natural thing and it's a sort of heartbeat as well. And so with the classics, it's actually there are speeches that I'd learnnted sixteen seventeen that I still know absolutely forming it solid of a speech because it's with the ambic, it's that beat, it's that musicality it just locks in It's interesting because I think once you've done a Shakespeare play, maybe also in those formative years, you can't stay away from it. seemingly, you just keep going back and back. I saw David in Macbeth, not that long ago, maybe two years ago. And you know, you can go away and do a film or a TV show, but then you've got to just touch base with Shakespeare here and there and have that little moment again. Yeah, you do because you know, the genius of him is that he reflects upon our time and age And it's just always modern in that sense. And whatever you do, however you stage it whatever mad costumes or set design you bring to it generally comes through is this morality tale, which is always fitting for any time and political landscape you're in, it will somehow give you pause for thought. Yeah. I mean they are and most stories are kind of based on a Shakespeare play. Yeah. prettytty much. There's only a. There's only a few several narratives in the world. There's not much like pretty womoman is You know, like, Cinderella or ye is just a modernized version So what about when you started to integrate into Hollywood? How did you find that? Because again, as an outsider, as a film watcher and watching things like the Oscars or the BaFs, you can kind of see, oh my gosh, of course it looks glamorous and highctane, but there must be an underbelly to it that is cutthroat, that is you know, very hard to get those big roles because so many people want them. And doing a big film like Shakespeare in loveove, you are you know, front and center of that. that whole ecosystem. How did you find that change at that point in your life People say it's a lot of luck and it is It is luck. I remember I was at drama school and I sneaked out for an audition for Shakespeare in loveove and it was a bit p and I met the director and Julie Roberts was playing the Gwyneth part and Daniel Day Lewis was up for playing the other part And then it all fell apart. and so I didn't get that tiny little bitp. production packed in then a couple of years later went up for it again, but in a completely different role. but lucky. So it's kind of luck. It's where you kind of happen to be the right place at the right time. but you know ninety six percent of all actors are out of work at any one time. So cutthroat, I don't know, but the competition is is massive and just to kind of sustain any form of career is very hard. So I kind of say to people if you want to do it, don't. If you have to do it, which is a big difference to wanting it then then join the cue. And what does that have? Is that Because you know, you're from an extremely creative family. You're one of seven siblings Yeah And you're all doing incredibly diverse but creative careers and very passionately so. Is that what you mean by have? Like there's no other option. You have to Be creative Yeah, I mean I remember my mum used to say when we were young, youve got to get your guts into it. and that's kind of been my mantra. just just pour everything into it But if you're connected and Joy is your guide and it's the thing you love and you have to do I think it'll it'll kind of reveal itself. And I've always thought I've love theatre and film and television is a byproduct of my love of theatre. and I just always thought Whatever it is, even if it means doing it in a subway station and doing kind of sonic readings or something, I'll do it In fact now I'm working on a one person show and Again, it's that thing of fabricating the thing you want to do and not sort of hanging around waiting for the phone to ring. Yeah. I mean, that's not fun. No, no, it can be a bit tiresing, Getting lucky, it's all about luck. Can you imagine what your life would be without that creative outlet? Would you feel depressed Low, blue, like what would be what would the feeling be Yeah, one hundred percent Um I need I think in my life I need kindind of both physical pressure So I have to be lifting, doing moving and a mental one And if I didn't have that I think I would be absolutely mentally crippled I would kind of eat myself alive if I didn't have those things that Whar me out. I need something to wear me out. I challge to wear me out both and creatively, I just if I didn't have that, God, function. Yeah, I feel the same. Yeah I definitely need I like having ideas and some of them are shit. but I like that process of Oh, where's that come from? That's interesting. What could we do with that and play around with it and evolve it and yeah, ye So yeah, I'm I'm the same. I couldn't imagine a world without it P. Do you think that Was that taught by a? It's like the nature nurture conversation, I guess, but is that inherently like in your lineage there's got to be some element of like making, doing, creating. Or is that something like you say, your mum's gone, this is very important. Do you put focus into it? Be at school often, we're not taught that. I mean, I remember growing up, I went to a state school in Northwest London and it was like O you' like, A, okay, good luck with that. Let's get you on with maths and science and whatnot. And I'll be like, maths, I've got no interest in it whatsoever. You are quite heavily dissuaded from doing anything Aty seriously. And I know obviously we've discussed The chances can be low getting a job being a painter or an actor, whatever it might be a singer But should that Teter you from following that path, I'm not sure No, I mean, I take I think I was brought up to take art just as seriously as being a lawyer or a doctor. Yeah. Luckily I had the parents that were disciplined and had access to to allow me to follow through with understanding the discipline of a craft. So greatly stimulated in that regard. But I was at state school I went to one school every year because we moved house. so my education was terrible. I failed. everything. I couldn't read, couldn't write, dyslexic, but love the outdoors I was a bit mad and maverick as a young boy, but deeply creative. and I always knew I'm just going to be in the arts. so I didn't bother with anything else. But luckily luckily I had the sort of home structure in parents that could offer me the right way forward in that love of what I wanted to do. But certainly it's interesting, isn't it?, you know we as a country, we've got such amazing talent creatively. yet, you feel Well certainly I did growing up that the arts was not taken seriously. I don dot think it' laill. Yeah, that's very sad. It's financed less so in later education. It's kind of, I think that it is seen as like that would be a fun hobby, but it's probably I mean, I was outright told by several teachers because I was so dead setet. and you know, I think the other part of this conversation is You've definitely got to have supportive parents. I was lucky my parents like deal what you, you know, if it makes you happy, give it a bash. They weren't saying, you know, you need to stick to this. But equally as a young person and A lot of young people probably have this naturally. you need a bit of naivety dose of hope Because if you didn't believe you could do it Not necessarily like making I'm going to be a star, but you had a chance of earning money from doing it, you wouldn't even bother. Yeah. You've got to have that kind of naivety. Do you think you had that kind of gung ho like, ye, I'm gonna bloody well do this? I don't know if it was like, I'm gonna do do this, whatever. I just just I remember at aged ight I was at a comprehensive in South London Putney I know exactly where I was and the teacher said we're going to do a play and she cast me in the play and at eight And Oh God yeah, that fact, this is the department I need to be in. It just I felt at home and ever since that age, No matter what, I kind of secretly knew I was terrible academically, but I secretly knew Well, I know the department I want to go into and it's going to be there. and'm just going I'm going to settle there. But I didn't think of the pressures of having to make money or make it successful. I just knew that's where I'm going to be happy. That's where I'm going to be fulfilled And that's where I'm going to learn from. And You know, many ways and then if I did plays later on, it was, oh, this is great because I get to do lines written by people who are much more intelligent than me and I can hold hands with their intelligence. And then I can feel pretty intelligent myself Knowing that I'm not, but getting that ticket to ride was fantastic. It's really interesting hearing you talk about that first experience of you're eight years old and like this because you can't at that point, in a sort of cerebral sense go Yes, this is from like I understand this it's a feeling. No, it's a feeling. It's totally instinctive gut. I'm in the right department. Yeah.'s it's not you're right. It's not an intellectual thing. it's not an ego thing. It's just a DNA thing. Yeah. I mean, I think I still feel that now. I love painting. I can't make any money out of it at this point in my life. maybe one day, but that's not the path that I' sort of chosen obviously as a young person. But when I'm painting, I feel well. Yeah. That's the best way. And I've thought about it so much recently, like why do I have these urges like' paint this week because I feel really well while I'm doing it. Is that the feeling? is it like I feel whole, I feel complete. This is me Yeah. I definitely I mean, the creative arts has that the meditation of Just a coordination of eye to ink paper and that sense of being lost where time and stress is not involved. It's just your meditation, your observance. I think observing and listening and listening to instincts is a really powerful place and uninhibited by others and opinions. And if you can separate your ego from that observance and just be drawn by the way the material kind of leads you, the water, the ink, it's the same in music, I imagine and in acting. It's being by the material and it's that combination, which is lovely when you ride Part of your psyche rides with the material of others. It could be words for actors or paint for artists It's a lovely meditation and it's a happy place for me anyway. So what art would you do? How would you describe it? I love portraiture. Really? I've been doing a little bit of landscape stuff recently, but portraiture is my thing. And you're absolutely right. I'm in absolute meditation and I forget to drink water. I'm just like in it I love it so much. and I think As I've gotten older, I've realized I have to do that more because we're very good at denying ourselves the thing that makes us feel good. We like, no I must clear out that cupboard and then I didn't do the shopping and I've got you know you have this list of shit that you've got to get through, as well as working and being parents or whatever But we deny ourselves that. Do you need something outside of, you know, you're lucky that you love your craft, you love your job, but you need something else that's just out of that. Well, I hear you on the nourishment side is deeply nourishing. pro. I get to do it in my work and that's why I don't actually it's not work in the thing I love doing. I get to play with other people. I come from a big family. so I have that sense of bashing ideas around with a group feels very familiar to me and a place I like But I think I've been watching my daughter who's just takaking an art GCSE. And she was working on a big book and then going to her mark and then her final piece. and I was itching as I looked over her shoulder to do it myself. I just had to hold myself back and silence myself because I just thought, Oh my God, I want to do this. andm So I think I'd love to paint. I thought I was going to paint before I went to drama school And I think I find great nourishment in that and if I can have an hour or two of that a day, then I can do all the other jobs. They' kind of easy. I knock them knock them dead easily whether it's taxs or emails but if I can't get to do that meditative creative moment I' complete lost, I'm stressed I'm gnarly I kind of, you know and prickly. Yeah, same. I turn into a bit of a toddler Yeah Tantrums, if you haven't just got a little minute ACAS powers the world's best podcasts H's a show that we recend If you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time, listen up. This is Nikla Matthews Aomee, host of sideide Hustle Pro, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week, you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. If you can't run a side hustle, you can't run a business. They share real tips. And so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice. Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance and the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check out Side Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube ACast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere Aast. com The interesting thing about, well, there's many interesting things about being an actor, but one is that you spend a large portion of your life being other people and getting into their psyche, like with G Southgate. this character came easy, but you're trying to understand why he's made these decisions, what his set of values are his lens of the world, what his upbringing is Does that in any way ever help you work out who you are I mean It's all It can't not be. It's your point of view through your experience of life, and that's why every actor, whether they all play Hamilia or Juliette, they're going to give you their version of it because their version of life is completely different to anything else. and that's the joy of watching the same production again and again because it's the way in which it's been interpreted by someone else I was talking, I did an interview the other day and I spoke about going to a shrink as my character and I've done it three times. Oh really? Yeah. and it's a fascinating experience because You think it's about the character and you sit there and you go, ye. and I did this and did that. and But then slowly as you answer and these very pertinent brilliant questions are being put to you by an astute brain you realize, my God, is that connected to me or the character and you start voicing feelings and thoughts on the character, but they're slightly intertwined with your version of events as well. So you end up learning a lot about yourself and the character. but it's a tough thing if anyone goes to do it. Remember, you have to fill out this form before you sit down. and I was so stuck just at stage one and going How old am I What's my date of birth? What was my mum and dad's name and what's my middle name? and so it took me a while of of getting that right, but it's an interesting thing to do though. It's a great as your character. Yeah. And you come away with a better sense of yeah, of yourself of yourself O yourself. Weirdly, that was a weird thing. I thought it was going to only be about the character and then you start it starts looking into things that you haven't really addressed. And they're slowly coming out and you have to really discern is this me or the character? Well, And have you done therapy as you? Yeah, I have. ye. Lukanian therapy Well, it's a kind of you got Freud and Jung and Lucca Yeah a French guy fromom the sixties, I think, but it's a session where it could be just ten minutes, twenty minutes, half an hour, kind of And so that was a fascinating Wow And do you think you know you done? Have you done? I do it every Wednday. Oh do you I brillant brilliant E Wnesday. Yeah' expensive, isn't it Oh yeah.'s a good it's the best. I'd rather do that than buy shoes. Yeah. I like to buy the cheapest shoes ever and I wear the same trainers every damn day, but I'll spend my money going to therapy because it's changed my life in the best possible way and I don't feel there's any sense of near completion with it. L it's just going to keep rolling. And I think, you know, I was having a chat with and Deck when they came on the podcast and Deck was saying You know, he's someone that's so successful in his lane. You know, the Ant and Deck cannot be any more successful in what they do but he said I'm not saying anything that he didn't say to lots of people on this podcast, but that he doesn't feel he's made it And at times he's unsure of who he is. And I think That's so fascinating to hear someone on top of their game Say that because we can all look around at our peers or people that we love on TV and think They've nailed it, they've got it sorted. but actually every one of us is bumbling along, trying our best, trying to figure out who the hell we are path to take next, which decisions to make? And We're just giving it a good shot Yeah, I think think so. It is interesting that those formative years those childhood years, those really precious years. It's all there, isn't it? So if you haven't unraveled or found the full weight of the joy of that childhood,'s it's going to follow you into adulthood. Yeah We're really just sort of adults in the playground still kind of trying to work it all out. How do you think growing up in a big family with that many siblings and a twin brother has informed who you are as a person? Do you know what? It makes me eat really fast at the table. Like food's gonna run out. Yeah, exactly. That's the only thing. And I actually went to see he's a dear friend of mine, this guy that does NLP, this neuro linguistic programming when he was starting out as a hypnotist, I guess we'd call it And I said, Hey, I really wanted to support you and your new venture as anhipist. And he said, B Jo, what should we work on? I I feel quite good. I don't know what there is that I said I ate really fast because of being the youngest of seven. If you didn't get in there, it was gone. It was good. Yeah. so I'm still working on that. Wow. And do you think the twin relationship feels different to the relationship with your other siblings Yeah, it does. I I don't know if that's just sharing a womb, birthdays and bunk beds does that to you, but there's definitely a synergy They're unlike the others. But we're fraternal, so we're not identical, but I definitely have This very special relationship, although in adulthood it's you know, with lives and what you do, it's we touch bed less, but I do feel that there's connection quite unlike my other siblings. He's a conservationist, right? He is. Yeah. he works up in Norfolk in a place called Holcombe Hall where weirdly I filmed a bit of Shakespeare in loveve. It was great funy to be there But he's heads up the consonservation and he's fascinating. He's brilliant. He'll take you in his little truck and you'll He'll go. I remember he took me to this to this field in Norfolk And we sat there in his beat up land rover and he said, What do you see out fielding Bush is and trees and that's about it because yeah, there's not much is there K kind of normal to me. And he said We're going to go twenty minutes over here and we're going to another field And it was full of bees and butterflies and foxes and birds and it was just loud with nature. It was just crazy. It was like you know, um, I don't know Narnia or something And I said, what the hell iss this? He said, Well, this is what conservation is about. know in the other place, they cut the hedges, they do this, the pesticididees here. It's free. And you just saw the ecosystem was just banging. It was incredible. So I love going to see him. I love he's brilliantly instructive. I'm a bit of a townie to him and a bit of a lost case, but it's lovely hanging out with him in Norfolk. Oh, that's so nice. and just to get out the hustle and bustle and just be in nature is one hundred percent. Absolute bliss Before we wrap up, there's a couple of important questions that I ask everybody. One of them, I mean, they're not important. O one of them is important, One of them is for fun The first one is the fun one We're creating a happappy Plays playlist with music that just makes you feel Really good. can be any genre, flavour. What would your song be that you're putting on the playlist? G I wish I thought about this I wasn't told it's better it's better I off the cuff. because the answer will be different every day anyway My happy place in terms of a playlist is the White album by the Beatles. I mean, there's so much in there. just sings to me in the best possible way And it's part of my growing up. And when I listen to that and various tracks, I am in such a happy place. Is there one particular song that you think, that gets me? Oh my Godd, there's bits of all different bits. The one that doesn't get me is a track called numberum nine But I mean, it could be oh my god, I can't think of the names, but can put all of them on Yeah I'll put the whole album. Yeah, please. I mean, I can't draw one. I mean also that some of them are very short. They're kind of almost experimental bits And suddenly it's like, you know, forty seconds and then they're into something else God, I mean, all of it.. I'm a massive Beatles fan. I absolutely love them. And then where would you say your happy placeaces