Music and Happy Places

Hello and welcome to Happy Plays with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that wants you to be no one but yourself. Today I'm chatting to Grace Campbell. When women get to that age, like Jame voner Lou Tomlin's age historically they are deemed as invisible to the media. like we don't want tona see them anymore. we don't to hear from anymore. And then you have these unbelievable women who just like don't give a fuck anymore because they're not appeasing to the male gays, they're not appeasing to like gatekeepers anymore. They don't have to because they' past that I want to be that now. Why are we caring so much about like what people online say about us or like what men think about us or whether or not we're being too much or too anxious or too emotional? We're wasting so much time Now this is a podcast episode that has been on the cards for ages. First of all, I started off just being a fan of Gracess. I think we started initially DMing each other on Instagram and I was like, she's just cool and clever and funny and I love her stand upp. And then we got to meet. in real life. We were both at the Albert Hall, which is, if you haven't been a beautiful, very historic venue in the heart of London. It is the most gorgeous venue to see music show at because It's completely round. So wherever you sit, you're just in the gig And we were both there invited by the one and only brilliant Jillian Anderson, who by the way, has been on an episode of Happy Place a while back. So do go scroll back after this and listen to it because she was fucking amazing Anyway, neither me or Grace could believe we'd been invited to this amazing night that Jillian had put on. It was for her book Want. and we both got the opportunity to stand up on stage. Grace to do stand upp and I got to read out a sexual fantasy, an anonymous sexual fantasy from Jillian's book Want. And it was one of the best crowds I have ever talked in front of. They were so up for it. It was like a sort of Giant hen slash stag dooo. L everyone was up for a laugh. It was just joyous. It was shame busting because we were talking about sex. It was just one of my favourite nights of the year. And Grace did an amazing stand upp routine bang in the middle that had us just all on the floor. We were literally crying with laughter. So I bumped into Grace in the corridor and we had a massive hug like we were sort of long lost mates and just a brilliant chat straighten at the deep end all the goss. It was so fun And I was like, we've got to get you on the podcast. She's like, getet me on the podcast, so. Here we are Grace is just an utterly brilliant stand up comedian and writes a lot about her relationships with men, with sex and with her mental health too. She's also very honest about feeling shame in the book that she wrote during the pandemic. It's called Amazing Disgrace, which I have to say, I loved reading. It helped me a lot actually, in many ways, sort of like rid shame in certain areas of my life. Its bloody helpful book Right, let's do it. Here's the show Having my little bag hid or Right, we're talking about. My emotional support bag. Grace Cambeble, everyone should have. Not that this podcast is a scary one, but to have an emotional support bag is no bad thing. Yeah, this is not a scary podcast by the way. I feel very at ease with you, but I just bought this bag And I'm obsessive it I love it. I love a tiny little b. Nhing, but it looks adorable. It's gonna to hold poo bags for the dog. practical because the other day Fan I was walking my dog and this is how much of a stick lon for people not picking up dog shit I was walking my dog, I'd forgotten dog oo bags. She did a shit I was like, I can't, I'm in my area. I don't want someone to see that. I've not picked up my dog shit. I took my bra off and I picked the shit up with the bra And I threw the bar in the bin And I really hope that that karma comes back for me. That cannot be real. That is true It was a very cheap bra. It was one of those ones that's like, you know, like it was from H andM. It was like not like not like I wear nearly the same bra every day because it's just the bra. It's the one that I know, it fits, it works. I wouldd be devastated to lose that bra. This one was not one of those ones It actually was a bit small for me and sometimes I was like if I'm wearing a tight top, it looks like I have four tits. So like it was wow. But then, right? And then this is because I'm so scatty I walked past the pet shop and I thought I should buy poo bags. before something else carried on, she then did another shit, right? So now I. And then I stripped down And then I went into a book shop on Blackstock Road and I was like, toooo polite to just ask for a plastic bag. You're right. bought a book and then said, Oh can I get a bag for the book? bought a book about mindfulness Sorry and it was actually a great book, really changed my life. But then was like, oh, actually can I get a plastic bag? and it was this tiny little book that I bought And she was like, okay, I was like my dog's on a shower outside Sorry, you'll never forget Poo. for. can you I mean it's ador, I know. I sort of want one. I don't even have a dog. Oh I should have got you one actually because they had like blue, they had green. Oh green, got you on. I'. I'll go back there and I'll get you on. Because after we've done this podcast, we are darising to dr a drink of a margarita of sorts. I can't wait doing it off. Because the first time we met was at the Royal Albert Hall. Yeah and it was electric It was literally and we've got a photographic. We could look back one day and go That's where we met. It was crazy. The energy was crazy. And you know what I loved I can't do small talk. I'm not interested. I don't really care how your day was. I don't want to know about where you'd spend a holiday. We just went straight in This is the only conversations I can have. Same I want to go deep straight away and you told me the thing and I was like And you know one to we were also in such a public space, but you know when you like, that was I'm so glad that the feeling is mutual. It was a really there was ay energ moment there and I was like, whoa. We are like meant to We're meant to hang out. We're meant to hang out. It's my favorite feeling. Same Especially right I'm in my mid forties and there's all this thing of like, oh you don't meet people as you get older You can meet anyone at any time and have a new amazing mate, which is really fun. It's the best. fun. This is why, right? I've just done a talk before this. and It was about. Thank you. It was all about my sort of goals are. And I thought, you know what? the best thing about this job and the only thing I actually care about at this point is that I get to meet interesting people and chat. And in no well, very few jobs would I get to so frequently meet someone and sit like this and have a chat, unless you're maybe like a therapist or something. I don't know. But you can't hang out with your clients and your friend. You can't like, hey, I love your vibe. Should we go for a spicy margariti? I learn that the hard way when I bumped into my therapist in Sainsbury's and I went in for a hug And you can't do that. and I didn't know I didn't know. Oh Yeahah. D you carry on saying them Yes. She's changed my life. She's like the best person ever, but I realized, oh, there's like an etquette I'm not very like etiquette person. No, I didn't know that. Yeah, you don't you don't say hi or whatever. and I was like, ye hug and I realized So if you don wrong out in the wild, you're not supposed to say hi. I think you can just be like, hey, like it's just like a little nod, but you're not meant to have interaction. I think that's quite weird though 'cause it's like then they are like what they only exist in the room And then they're basically like NPC's. like they're not real people 'ause sometimes I think I've made therapists up in my head. like when I've had so many different types. My friend Holly the other day was like, I've done every different type of therapy, which is obviously a privilege to say, but like I have tried absolutely everything so cure my cell little brain and One of my therapists actually the other day came up on my TikTok algorithm like Shadow podcasts. I was like, No, no, no, no. That is not right. donon't you think? I would prefer not to see a therapist that's got a big online community I think it is just it's a very compartmentalized thing here that really works. in that form only. Yeah I like that. I like them to be like a bit like contradicting myself. They exist in this one place for me and they are they exist in almost just in my reality.. They don't I even find it jring when I see like another client waiting in the waiting room. I'm like, oh, You've got other clients. You're cheating on me. I'm not the only one. I can't be that sp. I thought you just sit in this room all the time just waiting for me toust thking about me. Now you are about to go on tour, grace? going I'm doing the Edinbur Fringe for two weeks and then I'm going on tour after that. Yeah I'm coming to see you on tour. Y. This is going to be so good. The tour is called The Lady is a Tramp. The themes are well some of it is themed around you needing mail validation Yeah, it's actually interesting because the thing about stand upp is you have to decide the title and the blur before you've written the show. So yeah, because you put it on sale. like I'm writing the show at the moment. so I'm figuring out what the show's about at the moment, but you sort of have to decide a title so you can make a poster so you can put it on sale, whichich is such a strange concept But weirdly yes, the show I think I did a preview two nights ago is about perception and like how much, people's perceptions of me have impacted how I view myself and how I behave my whole life, right? And it's like some parts are relatable to like being a woman, some parts are specifically relatable to being a woman online. and other parts are just relatable to me my dad's Alista Campbell. So there are parts of like my story of people's perceptions of me that only my brothers can relate to. But then other parts are like, you know, the way the things that people say about me on the internet and the sort of very contradicting things that people say about you or I or whoever on the internet. and how as much as you might try to have a boundary with it. It does seep into your psyche. You're human. one hundred percent And there's no way you can avoid that. No And so the shows kind of, I think that's what it's turning out to be. I did approve you on Monday or Tuesday. And that was the part that I actually, as I was talking about it, found really interesting. So this is a fascinating subject because and first of all, your idea of what people's perceptions are be entirely wrong because often they are and often they are because we think Well they're judging me because of this and they think this about me. I've had all of these thoughts over the years. They think I'm stupid or whatever. and actually if you were to quiz those individuals or that group, they'd go, I don't think that at all. I have so we are kind of cherry picking little bits usually to torture ourselves. And so we go, I'll take that bit because they've just called me a Tat and they've just called me an idiot, so I'll take that bit. And they obviously think I'm this. And actually there's a ton of people that are like, I just think Grace is really great. I think it's exactly that. I think it feeds into the narrative that you have of yourself and your head. So you're constantly looking for evidence for that narrative. And then someone gives you that evidence. So my best example of this is I've like always identified as crazy, right? L in kind of like a fun way, but like My dad's got mental health issues. My uncle had paranoid schizophrenia. I grew up around a lot of like severe mental health issues I don't have like, you know schizophrenia or dad my dad's like manic depressive. I think he maybe then got diagnosed of bipolar but I can't speak on behalf of him. Have you had him on the podcast? No. I would love You should get on the podcast. Yeah. really good on this pcast. I love the rest of history the rest of politics. Keep that Keep then, both. I actually genuinely listen to both I flip for I'm like Am I a politic cook he goes to a rooring tent? Or am I going Tudor? Yeah yeah, yeah yes. I love you't want to be in the presence. No you want to be in the pres. I want Elizabeth first. Yeah som. Some days I want Alister Somedays I want Elizabeth I first and I flip. But I think your dad is fucking great and I would love him on the proog. You should dad well he'll do it. He absolutely he's an attention haorse He loves it. I'll be like'll be like, abbsolutely. I love that you're a gorgeous woman wants to be on her vodgard.olutely. I'm not going to speak on behalf of like my p attention but he's attention your f. I mean we have we love to take the bit out of each other a lot But what I was saying is like, I my whole life kind of identified as crazy. I was always kind of kooky, I was always like a bit odd, very popular, not to brag, like I was never bullied. I was always popular. I've always had so many friends, but I was always the one who was like a little bit mad, who had neuroses that kind of weren't normal My friends just were like would take the piss out of it, but it was kind of seen as you know, never seen as like an issue that maybe I had But I've always called myself crazy. I guess it's like a defense mechanism so that Like when I'm dating men, for example, I'm like, I'm a bit mad so that like then when I like get really anxious and freak out Like I've already told you that I'm a bit mad Anyway, one of my best friends, James Blake, I'm just gonna say that that's who he is But not to like name drop, but I want to give him the credit for what he said to me in this conversation. I just lied that the surname was just like a beat after Yeah. I say No, but it's like I want him to get credit for this because it was it was a conversation that really did change my life. he's genius And he's a total genius and he's one If not the most amazing man that's ever existed in my life. I love him so much But we were talking like one day and I was talking about myself and I was talking about myself in the context of relationships with men. And I was like, you know, because the thing is like, I'm crazy And he just really like calmly but did snap. he was like I'm so sick of hearing how many times you refer to yourself as crazy. L you're telling yourself this story that you're crazy. And then it means all these other people that treat you badly get away with it because you blame yourself because you're always like, I'm crazy. I'm the one that's like made them behave this way. And he was like, you need to stop doing that because it's like it really matters how you refer to yourself Hearing you talk about yourself is crazy so much and like everybody else sees you as this like really interesting person that they're drawn to and like want to be around and want to hang out with. And I was like becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Totally. I have lived it. I get it. I used to when I went through a period of got sacked from a few TV shows back in the day and I started to get a bit paranoid and then I started to say, yeah, well I'm just like a bit weird and I just, you know I'm not right for anything and I'm just like not as good as all the other presenters. And I started to say it so regularly that then Pound didn't ring No more TV shows, because you speak it into life. There is something so magical about What you're saying, how often you say it and they're being an end result to that. I know. And the thing is is that I think when you have, like I've you know recently been diagnosed with ADHD, but I've always had really bad anxiety and OCD. And when you have a brain that like focuses on something and then goes, you know, the way that my brain, like a lot of people works, is like, I'll have a thought and it's a horrible thought. And then instead of saying that's a horrible or irrational thought, I will spend two weeks going down loopholes with that thought while I'm having conversations while I'm on stage, while I'm like walking the dog,'re like constantly having these like really negative conversations about myself in my head. And that is getting better, but I think the problem is is that like I've spent my hot to now and actually weirdly, the book I bought when I was Ticking up the dog shit reallyally, really changed like how I saw this. It was this book by a Japanese monk or something And it was all about like, obviously, this is so basic to say, but like, When you have these thoughts, how to like snap back into reality, bring yourself back into your body, be in the actual moment with what's happening. My problem is I'm time travelling all the time in my head And I'm like, you know, worrying about things that are going happen when I should just be enjoying something amazing that's happening right then. And I think, yeah, I think the crazy thing is the best example of like what the show is kind of like trying to speak to. likeike you said I don't think many people actually think I'm crazy. Maybe like one of my ex boyfriends. Yeah. But that's it. Yeah And I wasn't we were both a bit crazy in that relationship How long I've spent convincing myself I'm crazy is something that like should really be recognised. Definitely. do know what, I learned this thing in therapy where you can actually do like a practical exercise where say you get a big sheet of paper and you write down all the things that people in passing have said about you, orr maybe if you're in the public eye, it's been on a screen, but it could you know it could just be like Y auntie, a teacher at school, one of your mates. So you're a bossie, you're a big mouth, whatever it is, you write them all down, cut them out, you quite literally physically stick them or I post it to your body And you stand there and you look at them all like, okay, this person called me a dicker, this person said I was thick. And then quite ceremoniously, you take them off. like the action of like, I' taking the they're not mine. they're not mine. That's someone else's projection of whatever's going on with them. I am taking them off because like you say, not only do we're wearing these labels, we're then repeating it and repeating it There's something really interesting. There's u I found out recently the true meaning of the word abbra cadabra. this sounds fucking random, I'm about to say But I'm so in. It's an Armaic phrase. I'm gonna have to actually Google the exact translation because this is exactly what we're talking about So the word Abra Kadabra that meaning? Yeah True, meaning of ab R brs along that. The armaic meaning is I create as I speak So you go, Abricadabura, there's the rbb out the h same thing. I'm crazy. Cate as you speak and learning that was so game changing for me like Oh my God, I'm literally like magicking my worst nightmares into reality by repeating that one thing again and again. And it is that simple that if we can get into the habit of going I'm great. I'm good. I'm a kind person. Whatever it is that you need to say replace it with that and you feel lighter, you feel better. I know. And that's the thing that that's where I'm at right now. I'm in a phase right now where I'm really working on that. And I guess that's why I love writing stand upp because I do it as I go. Like I'm figuring this out as I'm writing a show, like working on like a stand up comedy shows, like you're on stage and then I'll stop and I'll be like, Fuck, this is what the show's about. Be as I'm saying it out al loud, I'm like, this is what I want to say. And also reading feedback totally, tootally, but it's like It's not even that like, you know It's not like, oh, this is the show that everybody's going to love. It's like, this is the show I want to create. This is what I want to be saying over and over again. because my last talk was It was the show was about an abortion and I don't regret it. It was like an amazing show and I know it helped a lot of people, but it was really bad for my mental health. Performing a show I did it maybe like fifty times every time I was reliving this thing that had created a lot of trauma for me, it was so bad for my health. And so now to just do a show that's like really fun and but it's about perception, it's interesting, but it's like really fun. and I'm there thinking, I'm in a place now where like I don't have something really painful that I need to exercise during my stand upp. I just have these like things that you know, I'm going through that are very human So I'm really excited basically, like I'm excited about doing a show that doesn't make me cry after that every time. I mean, it's such a matter of trial and error with this stuff. knownowing that with the work that you're doing, the platform you've got similar to what I'm trying to do, you know that if you talk honestly about things, you can really help people feel not alone in whatever they're going through. But it is a fine line between then being completely detrimental to you. And I've certainly learned that the hard way by you know, saying something and I thought, Ohh God, I you know usually when it's more off the cf rather than in a book where you've got a bit more time to think, do I want this in print forever and it just to be sat there. But when you are just, you know in this setting or you're doing a talk, you do have to quite literally trial and error, like, does this feel okay to say this? And sometimes it's not worth it. L do you have your own set of rules as to like that cannot go anywhere near my stand upp show? This is for me to figure out. I do now But I didn't then. I think like the thing that I now know with hindsight, which is why I'm glad I did it that that was way too soon.. It was way too soon. likeike I had literally like basically had like One period. I didn't have a period for six months after my abortion. there were loads of complications and lots of stuff happened and then I was just mentally very unwell and I'd had like two periods and then I started writing the show. It was just way too soon. L I was so in it, but I did it because I time was like, the only way I can get through this is if I know it's happened for a purpose and if I know that I'm going to get something out of it, otherwise I can't rationalize what I'm going through. So I had to do it. and I'm thrilled. It was an amazing success. and you know it really did help so many people like how you know what the stuff that you do does I think sometimes there needs to be more time. Yeah. need you need and and I now know that, you know? Yeah, you don't want to be You know, coming off stage and then having to reprocess everything. you know, that's something to be doing away from the public domains. you can work it out I found your book not only incredibly entertaining, but massively helpful because I actually forget I wrote that. That book is so good. I wrote that when I was like twenty four. It's so brilliant. what I think is so commendable is that you were willing to say certain things that were going to instantly diminish shame for other people I mean, sham' on the front cover, so you know what you're getting straight away And I find that subject endlessly fascinating. and it's a feeling that I drowned in for years And obviously, as we all know, shame breeds in secret. You keep it in the shadows and it gets bigger and bigger to the point where you just feel like you're suffocating. And for you to simply say certain things, whether it's past experiences you've been through It just fucking blows out the water. Other people can go Oh I don't need to feel ashamed about this or like whether it is looking for malvalidation or things that have happened to you that you regret, it's just so refreshing to have that out in the open because so much for people suffering lives in secret and it just becomes this huge monster and it doesn't need to be, doesn't need to be. Yeah, I know. I think like it's so it's so interesting because I mean, that book is so funny to me because I actually really forget I wrote a book because I was quite young. it was during COVID. I wrote it really quickly and it all happened quite fast. I think if I'd have had a bit more time and I actually think maybe I should have had more life experience before I wrote it. So sometimes I'm like, I feel it gives me the ick of a bit that I wrote it. Oh God, I mean I haven't read any of my books. the first book I wrote. I don't want to read that. It's just becausecause I'm like, oh, I know so much more now and I'd love to and I will write another book one day and like stop offering me book deals, please ' I haven't got time becausecause I get off I get offered book deals all the time. No one ever I love it. I know that sounds really ungrateful, but it's like, I can't I can't do it right now. I've got. But one day I'm gonna write you know a book, another book that will be an extension of that, which is like I have always, and this is something that I think my parents would attest to, have always lived my life in a very honest way. and that was different, not like I'm not shaming my family, but my family like can be quite a voiden with things. and I've always been very like I just say how I feel. If I don't, I feel unwell. Like I say actually ill which is sometimes difficult to be around because it's like it builds in me and then I'm like, oh my god, like I'm actually gonna to throw up I don't say. I can't. I'm not very good at like understanding Why are we not just saying what's going on here? I can't bear those situations. Why is everyone not saying the thing I hate I hate. But what is that about us do you think? Be I feel like with that like we are that is quite different, especially in like English culture. L in England, like English people are quite like you know, can be like not repressed. I hate that stereotype, but definitely like You have to broach subjects really sensitively I can be quite abrupt and people say this to me quite a lot. like And sometimes it can be qu it can feel like I'm being quite harsh because I'll just like say something but I just I'm like curious about how that happened. I don't know. I just feel very tense when I know that there's bullshit around or like we're not talking about something or I think even with my mental health to a degree, there are certain things that are solute no go where I'm like, I'm not ready to tell anyone about this stuff partart from my therapist. And that's where it should live until I feel like, okay, this is all digestible and I can talk about it. But some of the other stuff, I just think I would rather go ye, like I've had a shit time or I'm struggling at the moment or whatever, rather than pretending everything's rosy and perfect, which I don't actually think benefits anyone. because it's a lie. Everyone's got shit going on Eone the internet so difficult. Oh yes. because I think that We've lost like we have really lost the capacity to understand that like so many truths can exist at the same time. And so now and we all do it.'s like we'll look at someone online and see them in a very two dimensional way and then assume so many things about their lives. Their lives are not perfect. No lives are functional and perfect. I don't know anyone who has a perfect, functional life. Nor do I. And so this is why I find again, coming back to that thing of what we're talking about, like I don't like being fake in any situation, which again' definitely annoy people in my life because say if there's someone I don't like, or like I sort of say like I get allergic to people. like they bring me out in like a rash. L if I'm around certain people, I'm like, I need antistemine, otherise I have to be I won't say who while we're recording. but there are certain people that just like bring me out in hives And I find it really hard to be fake. And I find it really hard to be like, hi, how are you? Like And then and then I get told off and I'm like, but I don't want to not be completely transparent, but then sometimes that can be rude. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I get it. Yeah. I get it. It's hard. but I think Certainly with your book, your stand up, how you go about your business on social media, that level of truth is helpful It's helpful. It's like busting myths and talking about shit. One of the big things for me with the work you do is the discussions when it comes to female sex, female pleasure, bust there is still so much stigma, so much shame, disproportionately on women when talking about those subjects, and you're like Let's chat about it. And do you know what's so I mean, I can't tell you how much it bothers me How many times I meet women who like do not prioritize like their own pleasure sexually. And I only get into these conversations because women talk to me about it because obviously I've spoken about it for a long time now. But it really makes me sad because I'm like, life's really short. you should be having orgasms. that's the best thing in the world. should be having great sex and we should be enjoying every part of it. And I just yeah, it makes me sad like I wish I could just buy everybody a vibrator. Yeah. Do they what But it's this big cultural weird issue that's been there forever, you know When I grew up, you've obviously got boys sort of giggling about wanking. And if a girl was to mention masturbation, it was like Gace like, Oh my Godd, we actually had Florence Bark on here maybe four or five years ago. We did a whole episode on female pleasure masturbation And it was so liberating to go, let's just chat about all of it R now, there and the amount of women that then contacted us like thank God, you're talking about this because it's still the inf women of my age, there's still this like weird myth around it that women women's pleasure is so far down the list. Well it's almost like G It's almost like seen as like a like something that like women shouldn't do. like ye because one of my favorite facts, I don't know if you already know this, but I'll tell you it because I love thinking about this. but Back in the day, like I think it was like the eighteen hundreds, it was like pre Freud because Freud is the one who came along and busted this myth Back in the day it was believed that for a woman to get pregnant, she had to come So the female orgasm was prioritized because it was thought that pregnant, she had to have an orgasm. W Then it got discovered that that wasn't true, right? And it was Freud that like came along and then said some you can have a baby with bad sex. Yeah, exactly. But like, how sad is that? Because I think sometimes I'm like, I wish I could just tell men that that was true because or maybe not actually because they don't wantan to care me pregnant Who wants to get me pregnant? I'll write a show about it. It is mad. How mad is that? Isn't that mad? Like there was so much, there was so little known about the clit like back in the day and it was thought that that was needed in order to procreate. And so you know, women must have had more orgasms or less orgasms when you know, they were trying to knock. There's also a weird thing When looking at like women getting older, you know, Madonna constantly shamed for trying to be sexy. It's like if she feels sexy She's sexy. Why is that a problem to anyone? she must to lie in a bed gyrating with tightsun at sixty Good honor. Why is that a problem for people? Like that when we get to a certain age we must wear a smck and start making sourd day bread. Like let women be sexy if they want to be sex people don't know what they want from women. So it's like people say like be who you know, like I love seeing women like age in this way and not give the fuck and then they do it and they're like, fuck you. And that's women, by the way, like women shaming Madonna. Of course. Something I love is what Jane Fonder and Lillily Tomlin have done in Grace and Frankie I don't know if you' watched Gace No I know it. I know of it I mean, it's just like a very cozy show that I watch whenever I'm sad. but it's about these two older women, much older. you know, they're in their like late seventies, eighties in the show And so much of it is about orgasms and their sex lives and actually their characters create a vibrator brand for older women who have arthritis. and that's what their characters do on the show. They You have got to watch Grayson Frankly, like I worship that show because I think that it makes me really look forward to getting older. Je Fo and Linny Ton and then in real life, they have such a cool relationship. but And actually one of the things that my show is about is something that I admire in like much older women, like, you know, women who When women get to that age, like Jame Voner Lou Homlland's age Historically they are deemed as invisible. likere not they're invisible to the media. like we don't want to see them anymore. We don't to hear from them anymore. And then you have these unbelievable women who just like don't give a fuck anymore because they're not appeasing to the male gays. They're not appeasing to like gatekeepers anymore. They don't have to because they've like they've passed that One of the things I talk about in my show is I wantna be that now. Yeah. L I want to be that. I want more women to be that way when they're younger. Yes. Why are we doing that? Why are we caring so much about like what people online say about us or like what men think about us or whether or not we're being like too much or too anxious or too emotional We're wasting so much time. You get to that age and think, fuck It's so liberating not to give a fuck.. And I really want to be that now. Me too. I mean I think about this constantly because I went beyond people pleasing back in the day. and it was just all about either me ensuring that nobody around me was in discomfort because I couldn't bear it. slash my projection and image needs to remain perfect at all times because that's just the nature of the job I'm in and it must remain that way. You don't anyone think you're difficult? No You just must pleasing in all areas. and I luckily I've got some really brilliant intergenerational friendships with women in their sixties, their seventies, and they say exactly what you've just said, like you just do not care. You get to the point where you' just say Whatever, and you know, the fucks get less. But why we're not doing that now is the big question. I think for so many women listening to this, that'll be fair for few men, I'm sure too, but we have a lot of women listening to this who are my age, your age, who'll be thinking That's what I want. I want to just totally be myself in any situation and live my life happily now, notot wait tntil I'm eighty. Where the hell do we start Well, this is what I'm trying to work out at the moment. I really am trying to figure this out because You know, I am having I'm thinking at the moment about like, I apologize a lot for like being anxious, right? So like whether it's like someone I'm dating or like in a work environment or whatever, like if I'm having a bit of a sort of like moment where I'm overthinking something, I'm like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry I'm sorry. And I'm trying to stop doing that because like, I shouldn't be sorry. like I'm allowed to have feelings about situations that I'm in without having to constantly feel bad and feel like ashamed of them. And I think that we I think the problem is is that We don't have enough examples. There are some incredible examples of women who are like mine and your generation like right now who like don't give a fuck, right? Cardi B, I'm obsessed with got like I feel Cardi B is just so herself. She so unbelievably herself. I mean, like maybe, you know, she's not, but like to me, she just seems truly like reallyally like at one with herself. and I watch her and I'm like, o Oh my Godd, like she's incredible. But I think how do we get there is something I'm really trying to unlock at the moment because I don't want to waste more time like Cing what men care. not obviously I care. I should care what men I'm in relationships with think about me. but really caring about like maail validation and like not wanting to be kind of like a really loud opinionated girl. ' my whole life men have found me super annoying. We need more loud opinionated. Yeah. we just do. I wonder if it's less about not caring. and more about You can still care, but you can deal with the discomfort of someone going I don't like that you're really loud and you're like, God, that feels awful, but I'm going to be alright. That's a very good way of thinking about it. Be I don't think it's necessarily sustainable for us to go. I'm just not going to care forever. we should. I should obviously care. Yeah I do. I think you're right. I think it's about saying, okay, like person finds me annoying. like I I once like was in a sauna and Basically, I talk quite loudly and I was telling a story in the sauna to like everyone in the sauna who I'd just met, like literally, I'd just met all these people in the sauna And then this man in the sauner like snapped and was like, yourour voice is so irritating. It's actually sending me into a psychosis. And I was like, whoo says that? A man L a man. Right? A man who finds a man men, certain men. I'm not joking for Find my voice really jarring because it's loud and I also sound very self assured when I speak. Like I sound a bit like my dad. L me and my dad have quite but again, that's what we need. I know, but some menen, deffinitely not all of them are like whoa. And it's like there's a man over there speaking like in the same exactly the same way. You're not going like whoa. it's like there's something about it that like rattles them. And and I and I'm never changing again. I no' going to change it. It must not. Yeah, yeah. I'll be in saaunas sending men into the psychoosis. Like there should be like, you know, a mental health team outside the saaunas that I go into. I think there's maybe that man, he's there's there's like a mum issue going on. Definitely with something underlining going on and I'm sorry to that man that like I upset her. She shouldn't because It is I find it super interesting. The voice thing. I do because I feel like that has been a recurring theme in my life is men telling me to stop speaking so loudly Aatomy is absolutely bonkers But none of my female friends care. No of course I don't. There's some weird correlation to what I'm about to say, but we know from looking at data from podcasting that a female podcast host, and I'm not just talking about myself in this sort of like narcissistic way here, but like me or Elizabeth Day or any other brilliant, you know female voice that I'm not to call my brilliant, but like Elizabeth bri in love. But any other women who are doing Their thing online in podcast form will mainly attract a female audience. It will be disproportionately female, like ninety percent I'm talking And then you get a few like straggler men who are listening. If you look at a male led podcast many who we love, they will somehow yeah gather a very mixed bag of men and women who are happy to listen to them. And when you quiz you know, I sort of put an Instagram post out about this about a year ago or something Whenever it was. and a few men came back saying, yeah, it's like the subject matters that you're talking about I's. I've had I've had like Gareth Southgate on David Harewood, Ian Wright, like, you know, men talking about all manner of subjects and some very male skewed, like football. Yeah. literally quite literally talk about the psychology of football but I'm told it's the subjects that I'm talking about. So there is something very interesting about, I think, an assertive female voice that some men do not like. or it's just like we can't Well it's like the wellness thing. Like men think that's not for me because it's a lot of was out there talking about it. I think it's because because I see this in standup as well.'s like I bet you do. If you went to see a Ricky Gevase show, it would be a m audience. R. When I'm going to go see Nicki Glazer, it will be all women women right. And Nicki Glazer both absolutely brilliant standups, but Nicki Glazer is an unbelievable standound upp. Men should be appreciating her work. Like She she's incible incredible comedian I think it's that they don't like notot all of them, but the ones who don't consume this donon't like a woman being on a stage having the microphone. and they don't want to give their money to go and sit and listen to a woman Sometimes about men as well. Yeah on a stage. And whereas a woman We' happily go and watch a man. We're used to it. It's our whole existence, right? Yeah. But even if they's, you know, talking shit about us, we're able to be like, that's funny. That's a funny joke. If it's like a good observ if it's an astute observation about women, I'll appreciate the joke I I think it's that. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I think you've probably got more of an acute understanding of this than most people having grown up in the world that you did, which is the world of politics where predominantly we see men in power telling us how shit's gonna to happen and what's going to go down. How has that informed how you? Well I think a lot. I think one of the reasons why I have this the way that I am is because I emulated my dad. like, you know in some ways, now in my older age, I'm really trying to emulate my mom because my mom's incredible and is very emotionally intelligent and you know, I could talk about her for hours Growing up, I just remember thinking, oh, there are all these men and they're having all these serious conversations and people are listening to them, How do I be like one of those people? Okay, I have to talk loudly. I have to sound really confident. I have to take up space in every like room that I go in. And I became that. Like I really did And that's why I'm a complete dichotomy. Is it dichotomy? like Yeah? Because inside I'm not like that. Inside I'm incredibly anxious and very insecure and have so many issues, which you know is obvious like through this conversation. But from a really young age I learned to mask as this sort of like version of myself Wh was like, yeah, and what And was always like that. L was always like that. L as a kid, I remember like in primary school someone told me that a boy had called me fat in the playground and I was like, in year one or year two. And I went up to him and I punched him. ' I was like, you don't call me fat And then I got obviously got in so much trouble. But I remember thinking, don't let people, you know Don't let people be mean to you. L you have to be kind of like a man But I think that actually affected me because I think it meant that I never really expressed how I felt a lot. I was always felt I had to be this kind of like Sightly not intimidating, but like I couldn't be that like The way I am now, which is like so multifaceted And now, you know, I think it's meant that I'm a bit of a confusing person to get to know. Like one minute I am quite like abrupt and sort of say what I think, and then the next minute I'm feeling super anxious and I'm like, do you even like me? Yeah? And it's confusing. I'm like that. Yeah. In parts of my life Iuring so confident and I know exactly who I am. And at other times, I'm like Oh my God, everyone hates me and I hate myself. What do I do? And I think We just We're like this Tonight, you're planning on watching the ultimate soccer showdown. During the match, you'll probably drink vodka, which will lead to texting your ex and maybe dancing on the bar. You should be a little worried, but you aren't, because you're not gonna do any of those things Tonight you're going to drink differently with RK, the world's first zero proof spirit that tastes like the real thing. All the flavor, all the burn, none of the bad decisions. Drink differently and get some RK for the match at arKbeverages. com Like the boys on the pitch, RK is redefining what alcohol free can taste like. 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But to see that and witness it, but to kind of understand the rules of power and you're not ' being taught that, you're observing it, you're imbibing it just from being in that environment I think we can all pick up tips and tricks, whether they're for the good or not to walk into a room like you say and take up space and be heard and be a voice because you saw it and you could therefore mimic it. It doesnn't mean you always felt it. you could use it. You can mimic it. Yeah you can take it. And I think that My dad is He's less so now. He's definitely softened in his older age, but Back then, he was an intimidating person. I mean, you had to be sure surely. Totally. and that's why he got the like, you know, sort of characterizations that he did and like Malcolm Tucker and that sort of like idea that he was this like controlling kind of aggressive like spin doctor type But he definitely was an intimidating person. And I do remember as a kid thinking I want to walk into a room and people to be like, o like that, which I don't now because I don't want to be that way. I want to be kind of like chilling in the corner gossiping. like I don't want to be that way. but I remember as a kid thinking, that's how you survive in this world, that's how you have to be. And And so I think in that sense, that's how it influenced me. And then I think just being around it kindind of made me I hate politics. likeike I'm very political now. deffinitely feel I don't know. I just feel like It's so male dominated. And like there are so many women who do like Tessa Jell, who was like my godmother. basically. We're like not religious, but she was sort of that fairy godmother in my life. And she was an incredible politician and she did so many incredible things and like She was amazing and such an amazing woman to grow up around to see how a woman deal with those men and deal with those spaces, but still be a woman and still be like really in touch with her like emotional side and so empathetic and Tessa was like the first person like when my momum's dad died, like Tessa was the first person that came around because my momum's dad died when I was like three weeks old and my dad had just started working for Tony Blair. It was like a really reallyally crazy I came into the world at a very crazy period of my family's life and Tessa was just so you can be both. Yes. and knowing that you can be both now and knowing that you can be hard and you can be in rooms and not be difficult but say what you want and advocate for yourself, you also can be very soft and check in on people and be open about how you're actually feeling and those two things can exist at the same time. They can, but I'm sure that's not what you were necessarily seeing in that sort of nineties male dominated political environment. And then of course, when your dad left the Labour Party, he left Downing Street, he comes back home and he falls into a big period of depression. And you' what nine nine And so you know, you've gone from seeing your dad walk into rooms with Tony Blair and everyones stands back and stands up and there's level of respect, there's instant power, to someone who's kind of diminished to someone who's in bed or on the sofa all day. How did you compute that as a kid? I found it really confusing and I think I think it's definitely impacted. sort of how I relate to other people in some ways because I think I found it really hard as a child to understand that someone could be on the TV and look one way be together and like on and then at home not be able to speak or get up or speak to me. And I used to do I used to try like everything I could when he was really depressed to like You know, we like loved the film made in Manhattan. Like me and my dad would go and watch He obviously just fancied J LO, but like. so good but we would go and like I'd like drag him out of the bed. We'd go to the O two center on Finchley Road and we'd go and watch like madeade in Manhattan cheheaper by the Dozen. I remember watching cheheap by the Dozen with him and he was coming out of a really bad ll of his depression And at the end of Cap by doesnz't it actually makes me cry. I'm gonna try not to cry. but at the end of Cap B Doz'en, there's this scene where like all of the kids like run towards Steve Mine on the pitch and they're like coming back to him. And I turned to my dad and he was crying and that was like a good sign because he was like feeling something. And I remember thinking, o, he's like coming out of it So I think like I am because of that I'm very emotionally intelligent and I I can always tell when someone's not okay. I can pick up on it because I was doing that when I was really young. and actually I was so young that I was so naive as well. so I got to try and help him in a in a way that was very innocent But I did also take it personally because you're a child. You're a kid. You're a kid. I mean, at what point or has he ever gone Hey, this is a problem that I've got and will we Yeah in the dark. And no, no, we weren't in the dark. L they were really honest with us. and he would be really honest. He would say, and he still does now. like my dad gets into like you know, he gets depressed now and he'll say like I'm not in a good way And to be honest, this is maybe like too honest of me to say, but it's kind of why I don't listen to his podcast. L there are other reasons that I don't listen to his podcast because you know, I have this joke in my show, but I'll say it now, which is like if I wanted to listen to my dad argue with a posh entitled Nppo Baby Kunt, I would just start an argument with him. But it's also because like sometimes I'll hear his voice and I can hear he's depressed and no one else can hear he's depressed, but I can hear he's depressed and I can't handle it because I feel too sad. I feel like he's like he's this like old man, sorry dad, but he's also like a baby in my mind as well in some ways. And it's so confusing. And I think as I'm now in my thirties, I'm really figuring out like kind of What How do you deal with that In any relationship like father, daughter, mother, child, friendship, romantic relationships How are you supposed to deal with it? And When you do take it personally, which is totally normal How do you deal with that without making that person feel more ashamed and more guilty? And it's fucking hard. It's really fucking hard. It's really hard. I mean, I think only from experience probably from being on both sides of a dynamic like that. I think yes, you do take it personally. and I guess the only thing you can do if you're the person the receiving end of it or you're in the orbit of that person going through a tough time is to go I can see your pain, like I see it. I get it. And that's often all that person needs, isn't it? Because I think our tendency is always to try and fix it. L what can I do and you can't, you know, this very Often nothing you can do apart from be there and witness it and say that you're witnessing it. And it can be torturous to do that Hey, I'm not trying to therapize you in any way at all, but Do you think there's any connection between That what you just talked about and taking it personally and kind of wanting your dad to maybe whether it's like you want him to see you or to go, Oh, you're my little kid. let's go to the cinema. and haaving looked for maail validation over the years. A hundred percent. one hundred percent. U you know, I've definitely in parts of my romantic life, been very drawn to Men who like you never know if they're coming or going, kind of. Like in my twenties, that was a lot of the time. the relationships I kept finding myself in was like they're there one minute and then they're gone. And I'm not saying that's what my dad did, but something I am familiar with is the feeling of like someone being present and then suddenly them like not being present even though they're there. And that is a familiar feeling. I think having a parent with mental illness like that makes you both incredibly empathetic. And also very, very sensitive And so I am very, very sensitive. and I'm just a very sensitive person. And I'm now just saying that and not being ashamed of it. I'm saying I am sensitive because life has made me that way basically. There's also something really brilliant about recognizing like patterns like that because all of us, every person falls into usually unless you're partarticularly self aware, the familiar, whether it works for you or not, it could be the worst place for you to be at. You're like, this feels familiar. There's a weird safety to the dysfunction of it. So going with a guy that you know is only going to be there half the time mentally or practically in the room with you is like, yeah, I get I know this dance. know it doesn't work but I know it and it's really hard to break that cycle. It is and also we sometimes do it to try and resolve a story from our past. likeike we're doing it because we want to prove that she can have a better ending and And I'm not talking about my dad here my relationship with my dad, like we have a great relationship and Like, you know, he's a complicated person, I'm a complicated person. And like when we've tried to work together, goodbye never forever again. L we get asked to these together. Gggle box folks a nightmare. But you were so you difficult. Why? Because he was like They'd be like rightight, we're going to watch this thing. I don't want to watch it I don't want to say that. No, I'm not saying that. No, I'm not doing it Are we done yet? Are we done yet? He hates faF, right? He'd love this. You can't hear you walk in and you say You're done. He hates TV's Yeah. Exactly one of the reasons why he can't he's quite bad with TV because he hates the waiting around. And he can be like, right, what's going on? I'm sick of this. And he would just say that because he's a mad, so you can get away with saying that and be like, So was there like, rightight guys, come on, I've got places to be there. Like she's super annoying. Wh does she.. But so but yes, I think like to go back to that point, I think that like we all do that in our own ways to try and sort of resolve things from our past And sometometimes it is very helpful. I've had relationships with men that have really healed me and like They're not happening now, but they served a purpose in my life. They taught me a kind of like feeling of safety and stability that I then needed to know existed. And I'm really grateful to that. And I thank those. there's like one man in particular that really did heal a lot of my like past wounds. And so sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And that's like kind of what you go through. But yeah, I mean, one hundred percent Having a dad like him And I've got loads of bits in my new show about this, but like, It's definitely impacted my relationships with men for sure. I mean, you go back to our childhoods and you can look, you just even if they're not Big traumas or whatever, there's patterns and it's really hard to break them, really hard to get out of the familiar Um, Right you're going everywhere from Brighton to Norwich. Is that right? A Edinburgh. how do you feel about touring? Are you okay with that lifestyle? Yeah, I am. I'm I'm Really excited about this song because I'm taking one of my best friends who's a comedian to open for me and I've never had a support act before. So far. So she's not only like she's called Alice Bryn. She's not only an amazing comic. she's fantastic. She's also like one of my people, like we're so close and she like knows me really well. So I think She that will be really fun. It'll basically feel like we're going on holiday and I'm going to like, you know, we've got days off. I'm going to like her like we're gonna to do nice things. and like I love touring in that sense because you go somewhere. Light O my last tour yeah My whole family Scottish And me and my best friend Jack, who's also Scottish, we had a day off in Inveress and I was like, this is so cool. I would have never had like two days in Inveres. is I've been once I loveved We're there for Bonfire Night. They take Bonfire Night so seriously. We're the best dirty martini we've ever had in our lives. and that's really fun. It's really fun like getting my friends to c come and just doing nice things with them. I just love hanging out V. Yes. That's my vibe. I can't wait. I'm coming.' Yeah, you're there. I'm gonna to have a big party. I' come toon Vaness I'll gowhere. Palli I'm Oh, u Okay, so to end I'm going to ask you two things. and the first one is, by the way, you've still got the bag on your lap. got the bag. that we've just done that whole chat with the bag on your lap. We are making a happappy placelace playlist, What you putting on it? Oh like the worst question ever because what are you gonna to change? I have so many songs. I know. I have to pick one I make enough te,. We'll give you tea Oh, fuck Fuck fuck fuck. Happy. Oh, this is so hard reallyally hard for. I know. It's the worst question every time. Really hard. Becauseuse I like think about my desert islandist all the time She's blaming guys. Ovious. Just waiting for Laurenange all the time. My desert island exchanges all the time. And can I get my phone really quickly? Get your phone L, you need a deep dive. this is to be taken very seriously wo doors for that for that for that sound protection The thing is, o, I've got phone, I've actually got too many I think I'm gonna have to have an Oasis song if I' Oh right. o. Yeah, I'm a big o Oasis gul. Yeah I love them. I went to tour so many times. They were so great now It was you can't even cope with her. I wish I could watch that every day. It was so brilliant. Every day. Okay, can you just give me like, o, this is the problem And now you've got to whittle down an Oasis song? No, I'm actually not gonna to do OSis. I've changed my mind. Okay, sorry Oasis was almost too obvious. Too bay. I wna be cool here, Loun Yeah cool I'm trying to be like a cool, mysterious girl. I'm trying to think we are' very partart of something Yeah yeah yeah. Whoa, Yeah Ly. How does she know that Okay, I'm trying to think of like songs that make me really happy when I'm driving in my car. Yes with the girls. That's the thing. like me and the girls. That's the vibe we're looking at. Yes. mee and the girls in the car. The windows are down. The windows are down. It's boiling I mean Okay, this is the place that I was looking for one second You know what? maybe this is super bait Oh this is bait, but I'm going to say it Sorry. I'm bringing my North London like naughty slang out today Please do Supertroopper Super trooper. Is that already in the playlist? No. So me and one of my best friends, Tara, right We once, it was Christmas Eve in North London and every year we would go to this pub called the Boston in Tuffal Park every year and do you do this for karaoke? I don't really do karaoke. Okay because I I'm like, let them have their moment. Listen I'm like, I get a mic all the time. let my civilian friends perform. So I just sit there and go, shit . Flasskay. Oh my God, that's so good. Okay, so you're not doing supertroop actually, I don't know care it. Anyway. So supertrooper me and Tara, we got back from the Boston one night and it was Christmas Eve and like it was like I actually think it was like snowing this Christmas. It was like really magical. We'd walk back to my flat from the Boston. We were in my kitchen, it was just the two of us and we were so fucking drunk and it was Christmas Eve like four in the morning. We knew our mums were gonna to be so angry at us because we were gonna be so hungover And we put Supertrooper on and we like it was one of the most euphoric moments with a friend that I've ever had. I actually cry thinking about it. And then I took them all to the Aber Voyage And Supertrooper is not in the fucking set l this. I don't know if you know this. Nope, they're adding it not? I've added it since the last time I went. But I love Abba. I love Aba. love obviously such a big thing to say, but I love Abba and Supertrooper is like, if I want to pull myself out of a sad moment, I listen to that song and I think about me and Tara dancing in my kitchen. Hey, I'm not looking here for like, let's get the weirdest track ever. When you go to a wedding You want to hear songs you know. It's that simple to me. I want Britney Spears slave. I want just sayo I was gonna do like a really sort of like No I was gonna to do like a sort of like nineties dub song. No, no. And then I was like, no, I'm gonna super Trooper because that song and Abbott in general justust make me so happy. That's what we're looking for.s that's what music does. That's the best. Yeah. Okay, so where is your happy place? That's the next thing It's like is it a place? Is it a person? Is it a metaphorical thing A Can I can I give you a happyio, happy place scenario? Okay. So my happy place Honestly is in my flat, I've just moved bought a flat and I'm not going to say where I live because I've stalkers, but I was about to say where I live. And it's got this balcony and like obviously this is my first summer in the flat and I've like had plants planted. I'm not even going to say that I planted the plants as had a gardener come. I'm putting an irrigation system so I' to do anything. Bou. Yeah. But the view from my balcony is just trees, right? It's just trees And it's magical. and the only house that has the balcony because the old people, the only people who got the planning permission And me and the girls, this is my dream scenario. Yeah by the way, we're about to have a heat wave on. This is what I'll be doing for the this wee future. me The girls, my dog, Eddie, with a bowl of water next her so she doesn't get dehydrated with there We're drinking orange wine. love. We're eating sushi. Yeah. I love. And we just chat So much. My favorite thing ever. Same Chatting uttering a full shower with my girls for hours days. Heaven. I want why ishing my life to just be that? Yeah me too. I want to I want to facilitate my life to be I get to a point where I just have the house that everybody comes to Yeah to just chatat shit alchemy in that is the absolute And when you're laughing so much no sound comes out. You're laughing so much that like you I actually have memories with my friends, like my friends from school, where I'm like, we all have the same like brain. L we are so in syncr right. Yeah E we don't even have to say the joke. we're just looking at each other and we know the joke. I had airthday party a few weeks ago. I know we're supposed to be ending, but had a birthday party a few weeks ago and it was the best party I've ever been to in my whole life It was just all my best friends. and I have a lot of them and it was just thought I thought it starts at threeree byy midnight, people will be gone six in the morning, notot a single person had left. Oh love. no one wanted to leave. We were like, this is electric. My neighbors hate me, I'm sure they do. No one's made eye contact with me. but dest It was worth it. I won't do it again, but it was worth it. So that is my happy place. being with my friends, my dog being there my friends heaven Yeah is everything They're your chosen family. They're the people that you love. It's the best.