TikTok Algorithms and Social Media

Great news for comedy TV fans. Every episode of the Hulu original series Alice and Steve is streaming on Hulu. From the producers of Baby Reindeer, best friends, Alice and Steve, see their world implode when Steve starts dating Alice's twenty six year old daughter, when the once rock solid friendship turns sour, these best friends make the best enemies. Watch every episode of Alice and Steve on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundlecri Sbuberss. Terms Apply . When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there's no room for slowdowns. With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts. You can get what you need fast and all in one place , so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call one eight hundred granger, click ranger dot com or to stop by Granger for the ones who get it done . Mr. Badgeley, hello, mister Lowe . Have we ever crossed paths? I really don't think so. I would remember that. I'm almost positive . Hello everybody. It is me. Or is it I? I know I've said this before . It is I . It is it is I. That actually you know what? I think that's the correct , that's correct English , but you guys would think less of me or more of. Would you think of less of me or more of me if I started this? Well, let's try it. Hello, it is I, Rob Lowe. And this is literally, I think you'd be like, Eww, he's st uffy, ew, whatever. Anyway, we have Pen Badgeley today . We're gonna gossip. We're gonna gossip. We're going to talk about his show you as well . And there's some other stuff that I think you're going to find very surprising out of Mr. Badgelight. Not the least of which is where he got his name pen . Nice to see you. It's nice to see you. I was doing a little bit of researching on you. And I feel like we have so many things in common. Are you ready? Yeah, please. Okay , your name is Pen and according to my research it comes from the tennis ball. Is this correct? That is true. My brother when he was born was so bald that we called him Dunlop like your kidding ball because the Dunlop tennis balls were notorious ly like harder and didn't have any fuzz on them. You know, it's funny, I didn't know that. See, I'm not as dialed in to the specificity of tennis balls. You would think maybe I would be, but the joke, the Dunlop joke is that my mom would always make is because my dad was gripping a pen tennis ball at this moment and she said, Oh, I think he's about the size of that tennis ball and that was just how it happened. So the joke is we're glad it wasn't Dunlop . But see, you just called you just called your brother Dunlop. We called him Dunlop because he had no hair. I like that. There's more though. Keep going. Ma, your mother started a jewelry business . That's true. My wife started a jewelry business. You moved to LA as a young actor, as did I. Yeah, how young were you, can I ask? I was twelve. Yeah, me too. So we're going to circle back and do a deeper . Sure, please. Oh, you took the proficiency exam . Did you? I did. Really? I did take the proficiency exam. I don't meet a lot of others who okay, cool. And so basically that means that we just don't have to go to high school. We don't have to finish high school. Is that what it was? long. Yeah, yeah. So I mean from what yes, from what I remember it's it's now it's now done more often by young actors. It's called so it's called now the Chespe because it's CHSPE, California High School Proficiency Exam. So it just means in the state of California, you have the equivalent of a high school diploma . It means a number of things. I mean back, then at least, most of the people were people immigrating from South America who were like probably in their thirties, forties , you know, for this is a matter of work. Right, yes. And for me, it actually was too. It was so I wouldn't have to work with an onset tutor and could work adult hours. And then actually I took what's it called? Community college courses, Santa Monica College out there. Well, and Santa Monica College because I went to Santa Monica High School. . So the SMC, I think they called it. Yeah, SMC. Everybody was at SMC. That was kind of like a cool place. It is. It's a really good place . So we had that together. Okay. And then most importantly, I see , you had a national tragedy when you did not know the words to the national anthem I forgot . I haven't thought about that in a long time but I of course had a national tragedy when I sang proud Merry at the Academy Awards. So I think wow. We've got a lot. You're right. A lot you're right. By the way, I'd rather no, I don't, you know what? I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know which is worse. Embarrassing yourself in front of two billion people at the Oscars or forgetting the words to the I don't know, man. Well, I mean, I was singing . How many people wasn't where were you singing this? I mean , let's see, it was Tacoma, Tacoma, Washington at a what do you call it a not majors , but just below that. Tacoma Rain iers , I yeah, I think it is, yeah. Mount Rainier. Mount Rainier is a gorgeous mountain up there . And yeah, I sang how did that even get arranged? Who knows? But I was in a lot of theater and musical theater up there and I was working in radio before I moved to LA and yeah, I do not recall at all how it was you just blacked out . Well, I just, I mean, so yeah, I was sort of cavalier, I think, in terms of prep. I just because at this point I was very accustomed to performing and I think also out of nerves I was like, well, I don't know what to do. I mean, it's the national anthem, so I'm just going to go sing it. And I blanked, I blanked on one of the last lines . And I just, and I remember being like, this is just silence. There's no music and I was like , what do I do? And then I hear the roar of the crowd behind me all yelling the words. And then I couldn't hear because it was such an indistinct roar. And I actually said into the microphone. I said, What? It's amazing . And then and then I heard the actual team itself like calling really loudly. Like finally the word. I was like, Oh yeah, thanks. And then I kept singing. And actually, I have to say nobody cared about me singing. It made it so much more interesting and the team both teams were very, you know, congratulatory and very encouraging. So now I don't even see it as a bad thing. I see it as like a that made the day for everybody. Nobody felt as bad as the kid as they thought the kid who forgot the National Anthem did. How old were you? I must have been twelve or thirteen. Oh, come on with Jesus. That's amazing then. Yeah. Yeah. I had this image of you like the peak of gossip girl just swaggering out there with your hair news or America's heart throb and just butchering it. That would have been yeah, that would have been well a better story to be honest . That would have been now you also homeschooled too. I mean, so yeah, but I was like can I just here's my favorite? This is an I have a great the folks who help prep me are amazing, but this is this is not their finest hour with this . It says he and his future gossip girl co star Blake Lively were homeschooled together as kids. Were you homeschooled with Blake or maybe they're great . So no, so there is something there. We did another thing I haven't thought of in a while . So Blake's parents were both very much in the business. So I went to I knew Blake beforehand because her mother was a manager and her father was an acting teacher. And so I kind of like and it was an at water . And yeah, I was in there for I want to say maybe like a year or something like that. And we may have homeschooled. There may have been because there were a lot of actor kids who were in some kind of strange homeschooling slash working on sets slash, whatever. I think at that point to be honest, I mean, Blake, from what I recall , had a very sort of iconic high school experience. So she wasn't homeschooled for very long if at all. But there was there was something there, yeah, there. Okay , so that's not a typo that's not well researched. It's a deep dessert what that is. It's a deep listen, this show is nothing but deep cuts. I'm excited as I see. This is the kind of show where Paul McCartney could come on and I just I wouldn't even mention the Beatles This is in other words, a show that nobody wants. It's a show basically enjoying to join the club. Yeah. You've got one of those too. Okay, so you were clearly in the in the show business . I'm obsessed with what your experience would be because like, you know, there's this whole thing where they're you know, the Oakwood apartments in Yeah, so I lived in the Kenwood, which was about which was walking distance from the Oakwood. The Oakwood was giant and iconic. The Kenwood was its sort of silent, darker counterpart, no not darker actually the Oakwood was a dark place. But you know, the Kenwood had its little its day . So for those of you who may not have been child actors , some of you, maybe. Yeah, there's a whole like industry where they, you know, you need child actors and people come from all over the world and they move to LA and they know it depends on how seriously you take it but a lot of them you know literally on the fly rent apartments and they have homeschooler kids and they oh they'll basically do you, know, on one hand, it's for love. I think they'll do anything for their kids. And at the same time , they'll do anything to their kids. And it's, you know, it's a tough, it's a really I mean, I wouldn't recommend it, nor do I think you would nor do I think anybody who goes through it would . But it's, you know, those of us who make it through have some stories. I actually want to do a show about it. I've thought about it. In fact, my brother Chadlow is developing one that takes place in the Oakwood Apartments. Yeah. Wow. So did you ever have any contact with the Oakwood? Did you any I feel like that would have been a little bit later, right? It was later. I lived in the Oakwood Apartments when I was training for a movie called Young Blood and it was my year I was doing hockey training and that's where the studio put me. But I but I did not, you know, and they used to have like a casting like a they had a photo room and a casting acting lessons at the Oakwood and then I just all these kids by the it sounds weird , but a lot of people came out of it. I mean, I feel like alumnus is that correct or alumnus they've ever gotten writing? Yeah. I don't know. I didn't finish any schooling. So I was saying because we have the proficiency . Yeah. What was your auditioning experience like? Give me some, you got some good audition stories? Well, ye,ah sure. The first one that comes to mind was a moment that I was both humiliated but also felt kind of empowered because I was like I knew that it was like not right . I went out for a would have been these days it would be the CW the CW still exists, right? Yeah. So but then it was the WB Yes, back . And I was going out for a show and you know, I mean, I've been working for Warner Brothers now basically since these d ays, but so I was going out for a show. Is it better if I name the show or not? Oh , it's better . Okay . I'm pretty sure it was charmed. I'm pretty sure it was charmed. And I'm pretty sure I was thirteen or fourteen. I was young . And I had, I think, a callback for, you know, just some just barely a role. It was just a guest star, like a kid who would have been encharmed with the show about witches and supernatural things. So I think I was a kid witnessing some supernatural thing and in this moment in the in the script and the sides I'm auditioning with the kid is meant to be saying something in disbelief like how what do you mean something like that, you know ? And I already hated that kind of television. It's not even a judgment to that. It does what it does. I had already been out for so many roles like that that I was learning to become cynical , you know ? And I really didn't want to be there to be honest . And I really didn't like these lines that I had to say . And this moment of disbelief that I needed to have , I just could not get behind for the little twelve year old life of me . And I gave a terrible delivery. I went like why or something like that because you know, it had those stutters in the middle of the line. Yeah . And one of the young writers because there was like just a team flanking the casting director. It was a giant room full of people. Somebody actually laughed out loud, laughed out loud at my line reading, which, you know, might not sound that bad, but let me tell you, that's a rare. I mean, you know, like to actually laugh to scoff audibly in response to a child's line rating. Yes. Like you're an adult. Get your act together, man And I was humiliated and didn't really know how to continue but had to , of course. And at the end of my mind, I was also like, What fuck does this guy think he is? I'm a child . You know , yeah. So anyway, that's just one little. Yeah, I can remember having a I was probably twelve and Fred Silverman, who was then on the cover of Time Magazine as the smartest executive in television. He like resurrected. I want to say NBC and came up all these hits . I had an audition with him for some reason, and he talked on the phone through the whole audition. I mean, he physically didn't talk. We had the phone to his ear. Yeah, right. He was listening to one ear and listening to . That was good. It was good. Good times. Good times. The rejection of an audition is actually when you're that young, you don't realize how much it's shaping you. Yeah. How much therapy have you had over it? Because I can tell you, my therapy builds are a is not even this is not a shameless plug for my show. We don't even have to talk about myself. No, I want to talk about your show. But this is actually how I kind of got into it because it's about these years. It's about the middle school years. It's called Podcrushed and you know, and my two co hosts have a completely different experience. They had a more they come from actually middle school administration, so they're like their former teachers and their professionals in that way . Didn't work in media at all until this. So this kind of magnified shame and rejection that anybody who auditions goes through, I think is like it's essentially the feeling of being in middle school, you know? And so I have a unique lens on that and they do too. And so that's kind of part of the genesis of Spring has arrived . Spring is also the perfect time to refresh your outdoor space . In Paragold is a destination for luxury home , bringing designs, best brands together in one place. Paragold offers its largest ever selection from ready to ship outdoor furniture to weatherproof lighting, accents , and serve wear for every style and space. It is the first to bring design's best brands together in one place , making it easy to shop , enduring all weather pieces . 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You know, we're going through this transition. We've never been we've never been able to see ourselves as a global people before the last what hundred years or so . We're going through the same the same painful coming of age. It's super interesting. Before we move on the gossip girl. Yeah, let's do it. Let's dial that in. Let's dial it in. I think Ms. Lively and Leyton Muser those young ladies are quite beautiful. And like that show, I remember when that show came on and everyone , like everybody was watching that show. That show was like West Wing for young people . That's funny. Yeah , yeah, you're right, I think it's an interesting comparison to draw, but yeah, something like it. For sure. But now you're on you and you is a really interesting thing because you started at lifetime, I believe. Is that right? Where did it start ? Yeah. Both the least and most likely place a show about a serial killer could be. Yes. And it was 'cause I've done a bunch of stuff for them. And I remember it being everybody's super excited. Like it's a big swing for them. Like it was you're right. Yeah. Yeah, way more serious more serious, but like well it's yeah it kind of isn't it kind of isn't yeah they definitely definitely there was an idea that they were going to have a really exciting kind of new way to approach a scripted show because at the time they were blown up with their reality stuff right , you know, I mean significantly I think that was right around in surviving Arc Kelly. Do I have that title right? I think that and that was like a that was a real huge kind of elite prestige get for them. And you know, they were talking about they had a lot of other things that they wanted to do like that. This was one of them and you know, and so they wanted to make a big push for it, but I don't know. Frankly, that always takes money that not everyone has. Yeah . And I remember it was like people liked it, got great review, great reviews from the job. And then for whatever reason didn't really work there and Netflix just grabbed it and the rest of yesterday. You're in what season four now or five or six? We just finished season four. Yeah, yeah. And that's going to come out wet in a few months. How many people have you killed on the show? You know, I don't remember the number, but if I if I can't reveal the numbers on so I can actually why don't we just if you want you can cut this part out. Let's just walk it through. Okay. And these are spoilers these rules contain spoilers from seasons one to three, but I can't talk about season four. Understand Let's see. So by the way , my theory on spoilers is this if it's a streaming show and it has been out for more than a certain amount of time. It's no longer a spoiler. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. So I'm just letting anybody know. I'm going to talk about all the people Joe's killed up until season the beginning of season four. So let's see. There's there's Eli, which nobody thought I was going to name first. He's a guy he's somebody who comes from a memory that you realize Joe's been doing this longer than you thought. There's Peach. There's not Candace. Candice is not Candace is somebody you think he killed but is revealed at the end of what season is it one or two anyway so it's so Eli Peach RIP Beck, the hardest the hardest thing I've ever had to do actually as an actor is the first season of this show where I didn't know how it was going to be received, really didn't know where I landed on how I felt about the whole thing like playing a leading man who's also a , you know, just a just a disgusting person , but who, you know, who presents a lot as not, I mean, anyway, you know, it's it's easier to do for the length of a film, harder to do for the length of a series. It's somewhere let's rather than walk it through, I'm gonna say I think it's somewhere in the realm of eight by the end of season three. Proficient. Very proficient. He is proficient. Which kind of in like was it a little bit of like a Ted B undy type of not really Ted Bundy that's not that's not his vibe because yeah not really hunter this is more psychological no and and I personally and I think I'm on the same page as the as the creat ors here. I mean, I speak about it openly with them and then I also speak about it openly and press. You know, to me, what I think we're doing, we're not doing a clinical portrayal of a serial killer. Or that's not what's happening. This whole show is very much working in the realm of fantasy and allegory and social commentary to me . And it does so for the sake of both fun and profundity in alternating fits and starts. So and ultimately it is sort of like escapist sort of entertainment with some real relevance to sort of real issues and that's ultimately like this toxic misconception of love. Joe more than a person who is like a killer , I think what he really is an embodiment is a grossly distorted interpretation all of our modern ideas about love that exist in kind of Hollywood movie making, you know? It's like the Knight in Shining Armor in a sense. He's a lot of those tropes following the logic kind of in a consistent way and then going far too far with it . It turns all of those eighties movies in particular, I think like I think the most iconic ones are like the that it's referencing are like the John Hughes say anything like the sweet guy who just can't get the nerve to talk to the girl but is like secretly sort of pining after her slash stalking her slash, strategizing how to make her his , which used to be fun and relatable and now you realize in some ways it's following some tropes that are kind of problematic. It's funny you say 'cause I never this I'm thinking of this movie say anything is not a John Hughes movie. It's a camera Crow movie about how you're right You're right . No, but still, it's like, I never got it. He stands in a trench coat. First of all, if he's in a trench coat, I'm out. I'm out. Yeah, that's a fair point. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, has anything is, there ever a story of the hero came in a trench ? He was wearing a trenchcoat . It was never happened. So gambit, gambit of X Men, the least popular hero of them all. And then he's outside in the rain, he's holding up the ginormous boombox playing that really depressing like whatever Phil Collins song or the fuck it was Peter Gabriel I guess . I always got the ick off that and people like they're saying oh it's a romantic yuck . And I think what people love is like, look at the what is that? It's the I'll do anything for you. I'll do anything. And actually that's what this guy is. He is the embodiment. He's not as much of a serial killer as he is the living embodiment of I'll do anything for you. So this show is a lot more about love than it is about actual pathology in in like , you know, like the mind of a serial killer. That's what I think. No, that makes perfect sense. I totally see that. And you're right, that concept does not age well. You know, it was quaint and cute in the eighties , maybe . Yeah. And by the way, it was because it was being portrayed in just the right way by just the right people, you know? Yes . And you and I have portrayed those roles. John Kusack did it every , it's like we have , we have about probably when all a sudden done, like something like thirty years of this specific kind of like nice guy who's actually creepy if you think about it trope . You know what I mean? Yeah And that's actually what I did for most of my career beforehand . And so it's interesting where this show and I always thought the same thing too by the way, playing these kinds of roles. You know, you know, nobody has as many insights apart from the creators of something as the actors who have to read the lines all the time. You have to bring it to life all the time. And so, you know, it's an interesting continuation of this of the sort of like archetypes I've played before. It's funny. I work a lot on the Fox lot and they filmed obviously it's an iconic movie TV lot. It's been there for twenty years and they have paintings on the sound stages of some of their iconic work. And there's one I see every day and somebody had the idea to, you know, put it up there and it gives me the Hebi Jeebies. It's Marilyn Monroe and I want to say Tom Elum in seven year itch. That's right. I know which one you're talking about. Yeah. And he's sniffing her hair. Yeah , yeah. And she's kind of like being like, oh god dish, but yeah, you clearly kind of it just an older ugly man sniffing this beautiful young woman 's ear lurking. It's so and like and that was it's an it was like, oh, isn't that cute? Isn't that amazing? It's like no, it's yeah. Well, I mean, love, dude, I mean you actually dial this stuff in, which is I don't know that we need to go there . But I mean, look at Marilyn Monroe . Like look I think I'm not saying I'm not saying it's not a one to one thing. I'm not saying it's causal, but it is correlated. Like, you know, she is she's not just like when icons such as her we have such a sort of desperate and awful experience in real life while they're living through the representation of these archetypes. And there's not it's not just random, it's not coincidental. I'm not saying that's what it creates necessarily for that person, but they're related, you know? It's like you can't bring all this to life in this way without, I don't know, without it it all takes a toll, not just on the people who play it, but on our culture, like it all has really kind of subtle insidious, far reaching implications. I think, you know, it's like , it's fascinating to me. And I have been fascinated by a lot of this for a while working in television and film as much as I have, and then playing this particular role where it's all about kind of like analyzing and dissecting and deconstructing these ideas Do you need a break, like a reset, like an energy reset when you're living in that you know , do you I mean, you've got a big spiritual life, correct? I do, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that because I'm kind of fascinated. And I'm going to butcher it's Benai, right? Is that Baha it's not an N, it's an H. So BAH Apostrophe I and the root of that word Baha is Arabic . The founder of the faith is Bahawlah from lived from eighteen seventeen to eighteen ninety two in Iran, then the Persian Empire. And this is now, you know, one of the most widespread and diverse world religions, independent world religion , although the original writings are in Arabic and Persian and so Baha means glory light and splendor. That's a rough sort of sort of and you know, you could think of that as like the glory light and splendor of this of this age that we're all living through. I mean, the last two hundred years or so have seen advances in our consciousness and in our social evolution, our technological progress, our arts and sciences, everything , everything is just blowing up and so I think in some ways you could say glory, light and splendor captures the light of these sort of spiritual forces and social forces at work in the world that we live in . And so that's , you know, I'm speaking obviously very broadly here, but that's that's something of what it means to be a Bahai is to be recognizing that. And does that help you get through season four of survey? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, just practically like just prayer and meditation as, you know, so many people do in space. Okay, tell me about your meditation. Okay, all right, here we go. I'm obsessed with people's process in that way because it's taken me way longer than it should have to get to actually meditating in my life. I've had people who I admire for years and years and years and years saying it's a big part of their life. It's a big part of their life. I've tried it, not tried it. It's just never. And then I finally doing TM . And that's really so far been the only way that's stuck for me. But what's your process like? Well, so like I started something like ten, twelve years ago. I was always I mean really kind of the origins of this for me was I grew up without any kind I did not think of religion as a valuable resource at all. So just for that reference, like the fact that I could call myself religious now is such a plot twist . I can't recall if what I would have was I not comfortable with the word God, I was not but somehow life was life was always this really beautiful mystery to be explored. I think primarily through art and music was my music was my thing. So I think I think I think I was really desiring to find that sacred sort of stillness, that deep place of deep reflection that meditation can be. Yeah , because it reminded me of the reverence that great art and especially great music would create for me as of even a young child, music was always like very, very powerful. So I think by the time I was in my late teens, early twenties, I was really interested in that vibe . But you know, back then, man, like it's amazing how quickly things progress in a way, like how common meditation is even used as a word, but it was not common even just what twenty years ago. So for sure . I did get so literally I made to be so pedantic about it, but like, okay, it's time for you to meditate. What are you doing? Yeah, what do I do? So for me actually at this point , this did not use to be the case. I do not meditation does not exist without prayer for me personally. It's kind of like a call and response . Because I think a lot of people who meditate are also sort of broadly agnostic in their in there not I welcome all perspectives and I'm really interested in finding how everybody is actually feeling the same thing, using different words for it. But the way I relate to this a belief in God is and what I could say maybe that in a more secular sense is like that life is profoundly meaningful, has clear has a has a has a has a has a purpose, you know, a profound purpose collectively and then also free of every individual. And to me, I want to tap into that source and that source is conscious, that source is communicative . That source is a deeply personal relationship, you know , I do call that source God. A lot of people do too, but a word is a tough word, right? A lot of people get a lot of people get emotional kind of emotions. This all makes perfect sense to me. Right. And again, that's I want to keep it about you . But that was you just described my journey exactly. Okay, yeah. And I, you know, I mean, I do think in our industry people who people in our industry, I think, have to search at some point because otherwise you will end up low, really low , really in a in a in a hard and bleak place. And you actually, you know what? I would say that for everybody, but anyway, that's I won't generalize, but yeah, so for so for me, meditation is actually the space after prayer where I've been sort of and for me now it's using specifically the High Prayers of which Bahallah wrote countless just beautiful, incredible, mystically intoxicating langu age that for me brings me you know, I think so this is something I've even heard in like twelve steps a lot is when we when we I'll go ahead and use some really clear sort of tr aditional language. Like you know you're on the right path when you're not praying for your will, but praying to understand God's will. You're not asking for something as much as you were asking to be shown what it is that actually you need and want and at that, you know ? And it's almost like if that's all you do, you're good to go. By the way, it makes it a lot a lot less time consuming than just a laundry list of things you need in your life. Actually, yeah, I agree. I don't even feel this is a other thing, other side of things. I'm not sure this is all good, but like, I don't feel comfortable asking for something that I want in that space . I only want to pray to just sort of be like, all right, this is where I sort of empty my cup. And then the meditation is where the cup is then filled again. You know, it's like I'm listening. I'm sort of listening and receiving. And by the way, like I don't pretend that I'm always receiving like true information here. I think what you need to do in order to see about that is like you test it out in action and then you just refine the process of like praying , meditating and reflectinging, act, and then sort of like , you know , have you ever felt that you've gotten however you want to call it a download or a direct message or a godshot they say in the program a lot where you're like, oh Jesus Christ. Yeah . And it's like an answer, a message, whatever. You ever had any of those? So I feel a lot of what you might be able to say is like direct contact , more like through my kind of prayer within this Bahai framework to Baha'allah or to, you know, it's like it's I don't to say like direct or that word would know it if you had it. Like if I don't know, I don't feel I don't feel that way. You would say yes, I once had an XYZ. Right, right, yeah. And I don't. But what I think is interesting is that I have constant like closeness to that space. So it's much it's much what do you call it? Osmosis? Yeah. 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Now available in Canada too, that's Q INCE dot com slash rob for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns quince dot com slash Rob . Tell me about your Ayahuasca experience. I have that in my head . Yeah. So that's so that was and you read you read , is this correct? You read from your Ayahuasca notes as a bit like a stand up thing? No , so okay, yes. So I was asked once to participate in something called the Ayahuasca monologues, which was, I don't know, ten, fifteen years ago like this. Oh, it's the vagina monologues but yeah, remember that remember that show? The vagina monologue? Completely yeah. I mean, I never saw it because it was booming when I was a bit young for it, but and I never saw it later, but yeah, it was kind of like this moth inspired vagina monologues , just storytelling thing around people who 've, you know, participated in an irewask ceremony in some capacity. And yeah, I was invited to do that and that would but you know, interestingly that was that was towards the end of my of my period where I was really exploring that method a lot for in the actual AWAS enduring ? No , no. You know, to me so I and you know, people can think whatever they want . I took it very seriously. I mean, my the only drugs I've ever taken much of were psychedelics and I pursued them with a sort of clear intent. I've now been sober for, I don't know, seven, eight years and I actually never of all this great struggles I've had, substance has never really been one. I actually couldn't really hang with them. My tolerance was always very low and I was very sensitive . But what I was using those psychedelics for was essentially what I use all this spirituality for now without substance. It's just like it's healing and therapy on one hand, and then on the other , contact with a deeper, subtler reality that sort of pervades all things . And that's I get into the same state with prayer meditation now that I used to rely on psychedelics for. That's insane. And that's the other thing that is now in the consciousness is Ayahuasca literally a year ago, I feel like was this weird thing. Not many people knew about it. Now you have like Aaron Rogers, the Green Bay Packers talking about Ayahuasca. Yeah, I mean, it certainly is way more mainstream. And I was, you know, I'd been reading about it since I was in my late teens . There's a book by a man named Daniel Pinchbeck called Breaking Open the Head that I got when I was about like, I think eighteen and so that really influenced me in my pursuit of like what is it called entheogens, you know? And it's just the pursuit of the mystical experience through the use of natural substances that have been used kind of throughout ancient humanity . But even that, I think now I'm not , yeah, I just don't that doesn't interest me at all in the same way that it used to, because I think let me ask you this, let me be devil a 's advocate thing here with Ayahuasca. So or mushrooms or whatever the hell it is or LSD or microdosing, whatever it is . Like the notion that , yeah, you take that and you get high and you see freaky shit, no fucking kidding . Or you take that and it opens your consciousness in a way where you are receptive and are able to see and intuit real . Yeah, so I think it's I think I'm definitely with you in that. I'm not dismissing anybody's valid and valuable experience with their use of this stuff because look, I can't, even though sobriety and spiritual state of intoxication without the use of substance is a core part of my own faith and its principles and my principles . Look, I did these things. And part of the reason why I did these things is because I was in freaking despair at the state of the world and the state of my own heart and mind and the state of my family, the state of my, you know, my just everything. And I was seeking it for what I now understand to be , as I said, healing and therapy. Now these things are referred to in indigenous cultures often as medicine. And I think taken in that context, they absolutely are and can be. And I think anybody who pursues them with like a pure heart in that manner is probably going to benefit. I just think that we live in an age where we live in such a material as opposed to spiritual age, at least superficially. Like we, you know, while we maybe have more spiritual power than ever, we don't use that language. We don't use that . And so I think we're, you know, I mean mental illness, like those rates just keep skyrocketing. There's just proliferating all kinds of new specific things that can happen to our mind in a way. And I don't think it's all a coincidence. I mean, to , all of these things are being used as tools to get into contact with a deeper reality. And that is a reality though, you know? Now , you can abuse anything . Little bits of poison are medicinal, but in more than moderate amounts, they're toxic. So you've answered you 've answered though what I was really asking was that the use of hallucinogens , whatever term is, and I'm using it broadly , is not that you hallucinate. I saw a huge thing. It's a medicine that is able to somehow in ways we don't really understand , get you in touch with another realm layer of an existing consciousness. Yes, right. And yes. And I do think the most pure form is, again, like the entirely human use of prayer. It's one that we're as a society really out of touch with, you know, prayer and then action and bringing it into reality, bring it into social reality, bringing it into your personal life. Like to me, I think that the reason we need these particular substances as a medicine if we do is because we're such a deeply traumatized culture, you know, you know, kind of the world over . And that's okay, by the way, I think like people using them for that reason's like great. But I do feel strongly also that it's like we're in an age now where we need to tap into the power of human potential as opposed to seeking it elsewhere constantly. So I'm very much like of two minds on it. Well, I appreciate my use of it and I certainly wouldn't judge others for it. To me, I'm like kind of if you need it for healing, get it and then continue and not depend on it, you know what I mean? Of course totally shifting gears. Yeah, please. By the way there might not be a bigger gear shift than this. Tell me about TikTok. So you are like, you come on TikTok, you've got like two point two million followers already. How did you do that? Well, it's because you're on your show and your show's got , ye myah, show's big . Your show skews young. I think your audience is a younger audience for that show, for sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, yes, I'm not I would never resist that. But it also seems to be seems to be quite broad these days. I mean it is because the show is mature, certainly. It's mature content. It's mature content. Sex and violence is the most mature thing one can yes depict. You did a lip sync to Taylor's song? Yeah that was the so for years actually, I've been thinking, you know, in the right way, I'll get on TikTok. That'd be fun. Yeah, yeah. And actually even years prior back in what I think? twenty eighteen, maybe twenty nineteen , with a friend of mine named Christoph Grizzell, who's a musician, he had a song called I did it that was it was sort of the iconic precursor to me T jiokiningTok it was a viral moment in and of itself . It was his song. We were lip syncing to it and doing a little dance. Gotcha . And that went very viral. There are a lot of you , meaning me of the show you memes ? So already I think like me , Joe Goldberg, my character on the show you and Dan Humphrey, my character on Gossip Girl, this triangle of characters was already like a meme , vaguely zeitgeisty kind of thing and and interfaced with TikTok already. So I think Gaia. You know what I mean? So it's like it was just waiting for the right moment and then Taylor's song came out and it just because the whole point is like I'm lip sync to her song Anti Hero and my character Joe technically he's not really an anti hero, he's a villain, but you know, great as makes perfect sense. So it just was it was just like a lightning only strikes once kind of thing and it really worked. That's sick. That's so cool. Yeah. Do you how often do you ? Well, it's only been it was like mid or late October . For the first three weeks, I was like, yeah, let's try this. Let's do this. And the last three weeks I',ve been slamm ed and just really more in the life of family, so I haven't made them. But you know, I'm like, it's fun. It's using them to sort of with my podcast podcushed , we make a lot more TikToks that are more directly we're using to just sort of build a fan base for the show. So that's like how it's working. That's smart. Podcrushed every,body . Don't forget if you found this even remotely interesting, which hopefully you did because I did . You can get pod grushed wherever you get your pods crushed. Where you get your pods crushed. Yeah, I have to say I love TikTok. I'm obsessed with TikTok because the algorithm, I'm on TikTok. I think I do fun stuff on it, but the algorithm knows me better almost than I know myself and shows me just the stuff I'm obsessed with. That's what rhythms do. And by the way, it only and it shifts on a dime. Like it just it's really kind of intense . And I hate to say, but I also think it listens to me because I will say that's probably I'll say a very specific deep cut dive type of thing . And then the next thing you know, literally the next time I go on TikTok, there's something related to that. And it happens it happens three times a year. This is what people say about. So I'm not on the scrolling part of it as much as the yeah, I'm not as familiar with it as I am with the other platforms and Twitter's kind of falling apart and Instagram I haven't really been on them. So I feel like I don't get this as much as I hear about this but so it's definitely a thing. I watched this thing called, what is it The Social Dilemma on Netflix? It's like So the main point that they make there that I think is an interesting question is like where do we fall on how do we think our devices are listening and then responding or, do we think that the algorithms are just with scary precision predicting our behavior? Actually tell you with my experience and I can give you literally as specific at least once a week if not twice . Right . I told a series of jokes the other day on the set with a very specific punchline and various like a bunch of iterations of the same joke I went on TikTok and someone was telling that joke. Black. I've never had a TikTok where someone told a joke, let alone a joke with the exact same setup, the exact same literally in that so on and on and on and on and on and on and on. So this is man this is like this is so either the algorithms are predicting that which is just as disturbing. I mean consider what would be what would be necessary in order to be able to predict that behavior? The algorithms would be pretty sophisticated. And I think in some cases, that's what's happening. But if it's specifically being if we're being listened to in that way by a number of apps and by a number , so either somebody has to listen to that sound and then respond to it, or there's a machine that's listening and able to respond . That's a high level of surveillance no matter which way you slice it. Listen, I and it's look, it's easier for somebody like me to say because you know my anonymity, privacy doesn't exist. Left the barn many, many, many years ago. Yeah That horse is through the it's gone. Yeah . I just assume just that every thing is listening to everybody at yeah anytime. I sort of yeah and look at the end of the day if you've gotten if you've got nothing to hide and you know, it's like okay. What do you do? I mean, I think it has I think it to me it's it's because I'm with you on that because of the sort of lack of privacy and anonymity that I have , it's not so to me it's not about like