Reflections on Wine Marketing and Coffee

Welcome to Making Coffee, a behind the scenes look at what goes into making one of the world's favorite beverages I'm your host, Lucia Elise, a former winemaker turned coffee processing specialist Thanks for joining this week's episode Yes, we are back Uh Hi everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. It's currently the end of June and I was last with you in April, the beginning of April Some of you may know the details of why we've taken such a long break due to my email newsletter But for everyone else, let me provide a really quick recap So we started with a very challenging Guatemalan harvest, mainly due to climate change making the workflow very unpredictable, but also because we increased our coffee production. and that increase pushed us to the limits in terms of how much available labor we had and then just the limits of the physical space on the patio. We also had a visit from World Barista Champion, entrepreneur, and YouTube creator, James Hoffman. and he was here to film a video explaining the four different coffees we made into a tasting kit for roasters. Another thing that's been preventing me from making new making coffee episodes is that I've been spending that time working with James Harper of Filter Stories on our collaboration for the Producer series. And the first episode of that is coming out either the first or second week of July So I'm so excited because this has been two years in the making and I'm just really eager to finally, you know share it with people and get y'all's feedback on onn the series So beyond harvest making a new podcast. We have also, Nick and I have been creating many YouTube videos justust to cover The topics that we talk about here like anaerobic fermentation, the lactic process, and also coffee being roasted and served at origin And I know that a podcast audience doesn't usually translate to other video platforms, But I promise that the videos are not visual versions of the podcast. We are making the videos to provide context to the things that we talk about on this podcast For example, maybe you've been a longtime listener, but you've never seen what yeast or bacteria look like. Or what am I talking about when I say, you know, we inoculate our fermentations In the video about the lactic process, I show you the lactobacillus microbes and how we apply them to our pulped coffee. So you should check out the videos if you've ever wondered what the farm looks like, what the wet mill facility looks like, or what the drying patios look like If you've ever wanted to see our QC protocol or just know what our home looks like, we actually film most of the videos in our kitchen or our garden. We filmed a video cupping a nineteenth month old Kenyan coffee where we talk about fading and ask the question, what does age and coffee taste like And a surprising consequence of making these videos has been the interaction in the comments section Not only is the comment section a really great place to leave questions, but it's really great to learn from other people in the community that respond with their own knowledge as well And while it's been almost a three month break in podcast If you join Patreon or if you're a member of Patreon, we are still meeting every two weeks live to chat about coffee topics like roasting at Origin, or how to find new clients, or what experiments we're all doing And even some very personal conversations about grief and loss of our beloved farm animals Even though I haven't made a new making coffee episode in a few months, I still feel very connected to the coffee community because of those real time coffee updates Something else I really appreciate about those bi weeekly hangouts is that since coffee is grown almost all over the world. Someone on the live chat is usually about to start harvest or ending their harvest. So regardless of whatever time of year it is, we get to hear about what other trials and protocols people are experimenting with and feel inspired for our next upcoming harvest If you don't want to join Patreon, you can still have access to those conversations on YouTube as well. So if you're looking for more audio companionship, the Discord replays are a really great companion to this podcast because I like to think of them as the podcast after the podcast. So you don't have to watch the video. You can just listen to it the way you would a regular podcast And I have the Spanish podcast, Cabal Cafe with my co host Francy, where we tackle topics most relevant to coffee producers. So please feel free to share that with any producers that you know or listen in if you want to practice your coffee Spanish. Lastly, Nick and I will be in Kenya for the fermentation training camp in October We still have a few tickets left and I'm sure this is no surprise to anyone listening, but we are still low in female representation. It's been really important to me to have a balanced audience so I could use your help encouraging more diverse people to join. There's a link in the show notes, so please send the info to your friends and coffee. That's enough updates and self promotion. Today is episode eighty, and a making cooffee podcast tradition is at every tenth episode I answer your questions Let's jump right in. Hi Lucia I'm looking forward to episode eighty. I would love to submit a question for the Q and A I know your goals in coffee processing are very specific and often focus on large scale repeatable processes However, if you were to take on a passion project where you pushed your techniques to the absolute limit to achieve the highest possible score, what would that look like? curious to hear your thoughts Regards Atharva. This is an excellent question and one that can take us in many directions depending on how you interpret the question This question to me, kind of felt like asking a vegetarian I know you don't eat meat But if you could go to the best Brazilian steakhouse, what dish would you order? This version of the question assumes it's talking to someone who is reluctantly participating in a vegetarian diet and that there is an alternate reality where they would rather participate in the ideal scenario, which is eating meat and Some people are vegetarian because it's a temporary diet to lose weight, or maybe a doctor told them to lower their cholesterol, or maybe as a personal challenge because they were curious if they could actually do it. I could imagine that for this type of person They might just be counting down the days until they can go back to eating ribs and steak. But if being a vegetarian is part of your religion, your culture, or your ethics You're not looking forward to a different reality where you have different behavior You would not consider it a success to abandon your current behavior I have talked about my focus on simple processing, minimal protocols, as well as my lack of desire to participate in competitions. Once I get a coffee to score eighty six, I will not spend any additional energy making the coffee score any higher In addition to focusing on mid scoring coffees, I prefer to work with disease resistant hybrid varieties like the unromantic Anacafaor or H one Centra Americano versus varieties that are popular in specialty like geishas or Bourbon Roslle So I feel like if you are an avid listener of this podcast, you know this already. You know this about me in this space already And so I thought the phrasing was really interesting. the framing of the question It says If you were to take on a passion project where you pushed your techniques to the absolute limit to achieve the highest possible score What would that look like My self imposed limitations are not a punishment These parameters are my passion project Keeping a consistent quality level on a large scale and doing that repeatedly year over year does push my skills to the limit. Making large batches of consistent quote unquote mid or quote boring coffee does not bore me because it's much more challenging to me than making micro lotots I find it ironic that microlots are held up as the ideal a coffee can have a higher value, a higher perceived value just by being a small quantity and unrepeatable. Because to me, making a small amount of something that you can't ever repeat It doesn't seem very difficult. In fact, doing something once for the first time and getting positive results Pret easy I think I've given this example on the podcast before. so apologies to the folks that have heard it already. But I want to repeat it for newer listeners. When I was working in the wine industry back in twenty twelve, I made wine both for a large winery But I also made wine for myself on the side I bought grapes from a vineyard in California No, not Napa, because I could not afford those grapes I bought it from a vineyard that was significantly outside of NAapA But anyway, I borrowed a two ton stainless steel fermenter I bought used barrels to age the wine after the fermentation, and I borrowed bottling equipment and along with several friends and a bunch of pizzas to bribe them, we hand bottled one thousand and two hundred bottles I had this entire production set up in my house in my garage. So it was essentially garage wine. But I did have access to some really nice equipment And the result was incredible. My first time out of the gate, my first time making wine, you know outside of the professional scope and on my own was excellent And that gave me a lot of confidence. A few years later, when I changed tracks, I started working for Scott Laboratories, which is a wine supplier in California I was mostly hired by them to expand the market for commercial yeast and coffee and cacao But in twenty fourteen, there wasn't enough coffee work yet, and I was still working part of the year with wineries in Southern California, namely San Diego and Northern Mexico. I met many small scale winemakers in the San Diego area And it seemed like every week a new winery was popping up in the Valla de Guualalupe in Baja Mexico. Over and over again, I saw the same pattern play out The new guys, the new projects The novice wineries We're all making pretty good wine I think the positive results encouraged a lot more people to open wineries in this region Many came to the same conclusion We just started and it's this good. Imagine how much better the wine will be when we actually know more and make an effort I see this thinking in coffee a lot too. People will say some version of My family had given up on farming or the farm was abandoned. We barely knew what we were doing. We saw some suggestions online. We put the coffee in bags or barrels, and then we just kind of dried it like normal. We We didn't measure anything. And then when the coffee was roasted, it was incredible. The coffee was eighty seven points. And so the conclusion is like doing almost nothing. got us eighty seven points, imagine how amazing it could be if we actually tried. This coffee could easily be ninety points or higher And I'm not saying this always happens, but it happens often enough that I have noticed a pattern When people put more effort in When they add steps that they think should improve the coffee usually happens Not only is it hard to get the ninety points But sometimes they have trouble maintaining the original eighty seven point coffee. And as a side note, I really hate talking about coffee in terms of cups score, but I think it's a helpful shorthand for these examples. So just know that whenever possible, I try to avoid talking about copy like this And I look forward to the days when we don't have to talk about coffees in terms of numbers for now It serves the purpose. There's often an inverse effect between the effort you put in and the cup quality that comes out I believe that a lot of these producers would be better off doing less and actually scoring better. And by doing less, I do not mean anything, you know focusing on purity or terrrooir I definitely don't like the other end of the spectrum where people think that tasting any processing is lacking transparency of the coffee All I'm trying to say is that during my years working as a new winemaker and then working with newer winemakers and over the last twelve years working in coffee I have noticed a line of thinking that goes something like was abandoned. we did very little, we didn't know what we were doing And magically, the coffee came out great. So imagine how much better it will be if we actually tried. And when they try either the quality flat lines or goes down slightly But rarely does it go up And I think something that really contributes to this is microbiology I know that to a hammer, everything looks like a nail But when we talk about humans and food, microbiology really is at the heart of almost everything If you've listened to other episodes, you will remember me talking about the nineteen seventy six judgment of Paris, where American wines beat French wines in a competition about quality If you haven't heard it, please take a listen because it was one of my favorite topics to talk about But mostly, it's important so that coffee doesn't make the same mistakes that wind did That nineteen seventy six competition changed a lot of people's minds about the wine industry in the New World. Before the competition, it was thought that only old worldor wine, like wine coming from France, Italy and Spain were allowed to be good because they had terrooir And the new world winds like wines coming from California, Argentina, Chile and Australia doomed to forever be second tier because they didn't t Terrooir, which If you'll remember from the episodes, Terar was divinely bestowed. Terar was God given Therefore, man could not dispute it. And when a newew worldorld California wine without any terroir, beat old world French wine, with all the terrir The results of the competition really challenged this idea they challenged, does Teroir even exist Could God be wrong I get a lot more into the history and the ramifications of the results in the Terroir episodes. The reason I'm bringing it up again today is because not only did the competition results help change the perception of California wine But the wine industry was also able to become first rate because so much of the focus at the time was on reducing defective wines. Yes, of course, some people in the nineteen seventies were trying to make good wine even better But what I believe really made a difference was the focus on making all wines a little bit better not making a small percentage of wines a lot better So the concept of the rising tide lifts all boats. For California wine to really have a good global reputation, it couldn't rely on a handful of winners. It was necessary for all of the wine to at the very least, be free of defects Universities like UC Davis focused on research to avoid defects in a scientific way The results of their work really brought the floor of the quality of wine up And I believe this raising of the floor allowed the ceiling to go even higher So how does this relate to coffee One of the biggest challenges to commercial coffee quality is still defects. So while the wine industry has conquered making defect free wine and can focus on making good tasting wine One of the biggest challenges to commercial coffee quality still happens to be defects over fermentation defect, Rio defect, phenol, potato defect They all have a microbiological origin Because of how coffee is harvested, processed, dried, stored, and transported There are a lot of opportunities for microbes to come into contact with the fruit and create defects in the seeds And once those defects are in the seed, We can taste it And for many of these defect causing microbes, once they colonize an area, an environment, a mill, it's really hard to get rid of them and coffee. Geese inoculation, unfortunately, is still a controversial topic. However, in a winery, the default is commercial yeast inoculation because it is well known that grapes come in from the vineyard covered in many wild yeast that can cause defects. It's like the winery is a hospital and the grapes are patients Hospitals concentrate people with open wounds, catheters, surgical sites, and weakened immune systems. Ironically, the place where we go to get better is also the place which makes infection easier to establish and spread The coffee wetmill is like this The place where coffee cherries go to taste better and become excellent coffee can be the very same place that coffee quality goes to die. dramatic Maybe. We do sometimes talk about coffee this way Death of coffee is both a metaphor and a biological reality When the coffee seed has been treated too roughly, the embryo dies When the embryo is dead, the seed turns white A bleached seed is a dead seed Sometimes a coffee is so stale that even roasting it can't revive it. It tastes dead on arrival We use death as a metaphor to describe our experience with coffee But biologically speaking, seeds do die So the coffee wet mill and the winery are similar in that they accept a fresh fruit with lots of sugary juice and use fermentation to transform that fresh fruit into a beverage And to help me explain the effects of how more effort doesn't easily lead to higher scoring coffee, we need to stick with this hospital metaphor Have you guys heard of a staph infection It's caused by a bacteria named Staphylococcus aureus. About thirty percent of healthy people have this bacteria. Sephylococcus aureus is a common passenger on human skin especially moist areas like armpits and groins. can also be found in your nose or throat Having this bacteria on your skin is not a problem. The skin is a natural habitat And as long as this bacteria stays on the surface of the human body, it can live there harmlessly as a colonizer However It can become a problem when it crosses into places it does not belong. likeike if you have a wound and the surface bacteria somehow finds its way into your bloodstream, that's where the infection is dangerous A stapylcoccus aureus infection can have significant consequences If the infection is severe, the patient is treated with antibiotics This is great Except that when you have a concentration of sick patients and open wounds and a higher use of antibiotics, this can create fast mutations and we can end up with a strain of bacteria that no longer responds to antibiotics. Now we have MRSa MERSA is an acronym that stands for methicyillin resistant staphylococcus aureus MERSA establishes itself in a hospital by finding a steady source of carriers or infected patients then spreading through hands or equipment and surfaces in a setting where many patients have open wounds and devices that let the bacteria enter the body. This kind of infection is really difficult to treat because it thrives in conditions that are difficult to manage in large, overcrowded hospitals thingsings like close patient contact poor hand hygiene, inadequate cleaning, and heavy antibiotic use that selects for these resistant strains All of those conditions require time to become established. Imagine the difference in positive patient outcomes in older hospitals that have seen many more patients pass through its door versus a brand new hospital How much more comfortable would you feel being treated in a hospital that was just built this year where all the equipment is new and very few people have used that facility That's the hospital I'd want to go to. Established places need to have very good practices and protocols to avoid spreading this infection In this case, it takes a lot of effort to stay at zero Meanwhile, new places have nothing to compete against In a new place, you can have absolutely horrific hygiene practices and get even better results than well established places just because the defective microbes have not gotten there yet to start causing problems. They have not yet colonized the environment. Time is a linch pin Let me give you another coffee example that proves the opposite of what we've been talking about, which is beginner' luck The beginner's luck of having an abandoned farm and getting an eighty seven point coffee A friend of mine had recently started working for a very large and well established wet mill. He had a couple of seasons under his belt and he was excited about trying new processing trends because he was in charge of growing the spepecialty segment of the company After he had been working there for a while, he invited me to their cupping room to evaluate their coffee The table was full of samples, maybe like twenty different coffees. They were pretty similar. I thought they were just the daylots of their watch process. So I tasted them, I cuped them, and I gave him my feedback on the coffees, noting the subtle differences Then he told me that they weren't wash day lotots, that in fact the whole table had been his specialty experiments My friend had made yellow honey, black honey, red honey, heated subverch naturals and dry trials, heated fifty hour anaerobics, and one hundred fifty hour anaerobics. He put cherries and parchment in sealed barrels. He put some out on raised beds, he did micro sizes, he did larger sizes But no matter what protocol he followed, how minimal or extreme the processing The coffee always came out about the same. And even when there were differences, they were small and they certainly didn't reflect all of the extra effort and expense he put into making them He wanted my advice What was he doing wrong? Why wasn't it working Did he just have bad recipes? I told him he wasn't doing anything wrong. The recipes and protocols were perfectly fine. and I was confident in my answer because I knew where he was working. This single facility did maybe two hundred and eighty to three hundred containers of coffee per year Probably about eighty thousand bags of coffee every year or more. That might be a conservative estimate Also, this mill was originally built in the late eighteen hundreds It was initially constructed to operate as a flour mill before transitioning into a major coffee processing facility in the early twentieth century Besides knowing the history, I personally knew this facility. I knew the conditions of their equipment, their pulpers, the condition of their tanks and their drying patios. I knew what their storage bodegas looked like because I had been hired to do some yeast trials there a few years before he started working for them. And I remember the results of my trials with them from when I worked there The point is that this wet mill saw a lot of coffee cherries and it had been operating for a very long time I was not surprised he couldn't get the flavor profiles to budge Because say it with me, Microbiology The local microbes had colonized the wetmill, and no matter what he did, they were just too powerful. In this case This coffee has a quote flavor of processing Meaning that you're not really getting to taste the plant genetics and the growing conditions But I argue that these coffees are still terir coffees, meaning that they are unique in their location These coffees have a unique flavor profile that cannot be achieved anywhere else because nowhere else has these specific conditions This is a coffee with a flavor that tastes of a specific time and a specific place. Anyway, all this to say that if you have an older facility and process a lot of coffee, quality is mostly about fighting the natural elements and it takes a lot of skill and effort to make it taste good Kind of like a duck gliding across a pond. What you see is ease, but under the surface, those feet are paddling furiously and continuously And if you have an abandoned farm or a new wetmill You can be as chaotic and manic as a Tasmanian devil and you will likely have better results than the steady ducks. But just for a while until the local microbes colonize your facility, and then you'll have to channel that visible chaos into below surface actions. Ultimately The fate of that wet mill is that they stopped doing fermentations altogether. It was so much effort to try and change the flavor profiles or differentiate the coffee that they chose to do a different path and invest in mechanical washers that would remove the mucilage and eliminate the biological component, and that's the way that they were ultimately able to improve their quality And there you have the microbiological explanation for beginner' luck. And to bring it back to a thought of us question I do not dream of doing anything other than what I am currently doing And belieieve me, I know how lucky I am to say that I feel really proud of my mid range coffee I know MIid is supposed to be an insult to me I don't make a mid coffee because I can't make something better It's because this is the challenge that I like And where I feel I can have the most impact teaching producers how to bring up the bottom level quality of a large percentage of their coffee not working to make a good coffee score a few points higher And as I thought more about this question, it reminded me of another version that I got from Kirk Pearson when I was on his podcast, The Copy Show He asked If you won the US Megaluto and came away with one billion dollars, what would you do to make a mega coffee farm What would you spend your money on to make the most ideal or even ridiculous coffee farm I can't be sure But I imagine Aarva might have wished for an answer to his question where I describe starting with a different variety, like a low caffeine laudina and processing it in a state of the art food grade facility with stainless steel tanks decked out with all kinds of sensors mayaybe with innovative drying technology like dehumidifier or maybe vacuum sealed chambers I think that Kirk's question is pointing to something like this too A way to ask about the future of coffee and what it could look like I have trouble answering these questions because I don't naturally think this way. As a minimalist, I'm more often looking at a situation to see what I can remove versus what I can add When Kirk asked me this question, my brain went to people If I had unlimited money, I would remove as many human bodies as possible and replace them with machines I realize this may be a surprising answer coming from someone whose goal in coffee is education and to create more awareness and therefore more value for coffee producers And it's so common that the story of spepecialty coffee goes along with a handcrafted artisanal storyline But the romance needed to sell coffee is uncomfortable to me I worked in winemaking in the Napa Valley for nine years I had a front row seat to witness how important romance is in wine marketing Lots of people want to get married in wineries But no one wants to get married in a coffee wetmill And while wine is all about luxury and romance It first starts as grapes and is therefore rooted in agriculture and farming notot particularly luxurious jobs In fact, back in two thousand three, there was an American show called Dirty Jobs Dirty Jobs was a program on the Discovery Channel in which host Mike Row performs difficult, strange, disgusting, or messy tasks alongside the typical employees The first few episodes made a lot of sense to me He had jobs like sewer insspector, Rad kill cleaner Wm dung farmer Chinatown garbage collector car roofer. There are many dirty jobs and bless the people that do them. But I felt like they quickly ran out of ideas or just got really lost and loose with the definition of dirty Because by the end of season two, they made an episode about winemaking as a dirty job Winemaking is not a dirty job like Chinatown garbage collector In fact, in comparison, it's a very glamorous job, especially in France or Napa Valley I know I don't speak for everyone, but my experience in winemaking was not very unique and it was very glamorous One question I get often is, do I miss making wine and would I go back And I had a chance to really be confronted by this this past April because as an extension of going up to World of Coffee San Diego, Nick and I made a trip north to see my family in California and I also got to spend time with my winemaker friends in Napa And on one of those visits, I was able to go see Chateau Montalina, which is one of the winners of the nineteen seventy six competition as they celebrated their fifty year anniversary from winning that competition And we had a great tasting and then we did a vineyard tour with the winemaker, Matt Grafton Matt and I we were in the same graduating class at UC Davis and we have remained friends for almost twenty years This trip helped remind me of the stark contrast between wine and coffee, or even wine and specialty coffee. even wine and ultra specialty coffee Firstlyate The people who grow the grapes are able to make a living. They calculate their price of production, they include a profit margin, and then they set their own prices Grape growers are not subject to speculative markets like coffee is with the sea market Because there are many universities and certifications, many people in winemaking have a lot of education in chemistry, plant biology, microbiology, engineering, economics There are a lot of perks in this industry because suppliers want your business barrel makers, cork manufacturers, yeast vendors, glass vendors And the tech companies that make the spectr of oatometers that we use in our labs, they're constantly stopping by with gifts, with dinners, with trips to Portugal and France, and they're always throwing lots of parties The vertical integration and short supply chain means that many grapes are grown, processed, bottled, and sold within a very small footprint. And that leaves a lot of room for people to be paid well So Yeah I miss my wine making days But I'm not one to go backwards, and I'm lucky enough that I still get to visit my friends that work in the industry But I brought this up Because I take umbraidge with winemaking being included in a dirty jobs episode, because the show also had a segment on a coffee plantation In the same season as a winemaking episode, Dirty Jobs featured a coffee farm in Hawaii. I understand that of course, it makes more sense for the production team to stay within the United States instead of the budget required to send te to Ethiopia or Brazil. However, by featuring a Kona coffee farm, I feel it gives an unrealistic view of coffee production that is not representative of how most of the world's coffee is grown, or the issues that most coffee growers face today Being in the United States, the labor regulations and wages are very different from Latin America, Africa, or Asia Additionally, the farm that they featured was organic, which can be difficult due to lower yields during the transition and Around the world, most growers struggle to pay for the expensive certification to prove that they're organic. A very small percentage of coffee farms can manage to be organic, and we know that one of the most challenging parts of the job for workers is exposure to chemicals By featuring this Kona organic farm, we don't have to talk about any of those issues. None of those things are able to come up Additionally, the featured farm was vertically integrated Not only did they grow organic coffee, they owned the wet mill and the dry mill, which is very rare, and then they roasted their own coffee and They had a coffee shop where they sold brewed coffee directly to the final consumer. And by virtue of being in Hawaii, the final consumer is probably someone getting married or on their honeymoon or otherwise on vacation and likely to be less price conscious. This Kona coffee farm was allowed to keep and capture a lot of the value in the producing country which is completely unrealistic in most other countries. The clip is available on YouTube if you want to watch it. I'll leave a link in the show notes You know, it was interesting because at least it did go over floating and pulping and the drying steps, and it was a good summary of how coffee is made but it lacked all context in the global scene. This view of coffee on this Kona farm gives too little outside perspective and represents a glossed over reality It makes farming look magical and harmonious while downplaying the labor the risk and the failures that usually define real coffee growing. You guys, I just noticed the time and this is what happens when I'm way too long. When I don't sit down to collect my thoughts and kind of put them down in one place, it takes me you know forty minutes to answer basasically one question And I actually have a handful more in front of me. but I think I need to cut myself off and come back to this another time because before I go, there is something else that I need to talk to you about. If you've made it this far, I have something I want to run by you guys. Okay, so in our cupping lab, we keep samples of green coffee from all of our trials as well as you know just our regular day lots for quality control This is common practice. everyverybody does some version of this and I a lot of samples not just from the trials that we do, but from keeping, you know extra years because I'm really interested in aging and seeing how this coffee changes over time And this means that the shelves are really full And I'm staring down starting another harvest, and I'm running out of space basically. So I need to make more space. I need to declutter kind of our collection of samples But because these samples are pretty random and they're really too small to do anything with, like we can't sell them as green because it's like kilo of this, one kilo of this, two kilos of that. There's not anything I can really do with them here. and mostly Nick and I just drink it, but now it's too much for us to drink for know to personally consume in a single year So I'm asking for your help to declutter my cupping lab. I want to offer these samples, these coffees as roasted coffees. And like I said, these quantities are very small and random. So at first I'm only offering this in the United States. So If you are interested, you will receive a blend of these experiments that we have done It'll be a little bit of a mystery blend because it depends on how many bags we can sell, kind of what the blends end up being and this roasted coffee would ship out in mid July. If you want some roasted coffee a link in the show notes for our newsletter. That's where I will have the most updated information. And by the time this episode is released, there should be a link on our website for you to be able to buy the coffee. So check the information in the show notes. Thanks again for spending this time with me today And remember Life's too short to drink bad coffee