Returning to the Renaissance Festival

Brothers, sisters, siblings, Wlcome to Penn Sunday School. I'm Matt Donnelly. We're broadcasting from well, I think all over the place, right? We got Minnesota, Las Vegas, Los Angeles We're here with Penn's good friend Carr Hagermman is on the show. Car, of course, the author of a fascinating sub sack and goes way back to the Renaissance Fair of days with Pen. Here he is, prereach the loveove, brought to you by masterclass, Pen Gillette Yeah, this is me preaching preaching love and brought to you by Masterclass com Flage Gen L Lifelong learning from Masterclass. We'll talk more about that. Now I have so much to say aboutb and two S Par has been my friend forever. Th Rer? seventeen. se four. You were seventeen when we met So I was seventeen years. And you were howble fourteen. middle gl I think. Yeah, we go way back. That's crazy. Yeah ninet nineteen seventy four was my first my first year pererforming at the Renaissance Festival and he tellell her and Weir were there with the Asparagus Valley that first year. and thenen we became friends, I think, more on the second secondecond year when he' tellelort. that's byy the way, this isn't true, what he's saying First year we wasn't there. It was just me and Teller and we were working separately I did meet you that but only briefly D did not perform at that Did he not perform at that show next year, the next year. Okay. So I got him backwards. all right? Yeah. And u and yeah, you were, uh I didn't really needet you then because you were fourteen. Wh wants to talk to a fourteen year old? Well Actually, I think Teller was I was closer to Teller at first because I was interested in magic. and And I remember I was talking to my wife about this and I remember when I first met you I think I've told you this. You were the first adult I remember saying, fuck in a way that wasn't angry. And I said that to you one time and you said, yeah, it's because I mean it I'd never heard anybody swear like that before. And so I thought, well, this this this guy's loud and cool and funny. And but then it was after I hung out with Teller for a while that I started hanging out with you. And then I think in eighty I think eighty I don eighty four, eighty two, eighty four somewhere there. That's when you and Krist and I drove down to Texas had that trick we But Are we? we would like We talk about this the whole time, but we have plenty of stories stories. But you became a big cheese at the Renaissance Festival U You did a rack catcher character And then you became some sort of entertainment director. But I say big cheese, I don't mean you made money doing that Hello You're photographer, voiceover guy, motivational speaker. You have all this you sorry We have to put this in past tenents. You had all those careers That is true. I still do photography stuff, but not it's pretty much you know, start over, you know with that yeah. And Car was falsely accused of rape and completely exonerated in the courts And he has been since having his life destroyed by that talking and thinking about it a lot. And we're going to say this What? aboutout every five minutes. for the whole time because we all believe it strongly. I'm speaking for all four of us False rape allegations are vanishingly rare But when something is vanishingly rare in a country with three hundred fifty million people vanish leave away being some people suffer And Carr is one of those people. and the judicial system Whated Slowly Kind of okay. Press and social media did not allow the judicial system to work the way it's supposed to. And now I'm going kind of turn it over to you. Now I've heard every single podcast car is gone. I've listened to every single thing on the. Substack I'm fascinated by how he's turned this horrible event into a Really deep ruminations what's going on with our culture. But now I'll turn it over to you to tell your story I appreciate the setup. and by the way, I appreciate Matt. Thanks for setting us up and bring me on. I've been you know, I listened to Penn Sunday S schoolool for a long time. so it's Uh's it's fun to finally sit amongst you I u Yeah, you know,, you said it was a big cheese at the Renaissance f. I mean Well, I guess Pan earlier in your career and Matt, you know, we're gig people. We take do multiple things. And so once I went on the road to the Renaissance festivals working weekends only I had a good time. I made good money passing a hat I worked two days a week, had five days off. It's like the perfect work week Uh, and I wasn't I wasn't u, you know, into the hippie stuff. I like to go out and hang out with friends or go to movies and stuff. I didn't U I didn't just sit around. I had a really good life doing it, but I wanted to do more. And so Minnesota Sh had been my home show and I think it was in twenty or twenty one The owner of the festival asked if I'd be willing to help with the cast was there were a lot of problems within the cast. And I said I was traveling at the time. I was making good money at that time now. I was speaking. So I was making good money and I agreed to do it as just another gig. and this one, I didn't ask for money at all. In fact I asked the owner rather than paying me to be the entertainment director just to use that money to build green rooms and stuff for the cast because I want it to try to prove things around the margins And I didn't have a contract. I didn't get paid. It was very loose Uh, and that that continued on well until twenty seventeen was my last year there I eventually became the artistic director. It's about a cast of four hundred, four hundred people, five hundred people seven weekends in August and September And I was very, very close to to the cast and to the owner as kind of a connector between them. be able to speak the language to the management and then speak to the cast in a way that they could understand what they were trying to achieve in terms of sort of business goals U It was an uneasy alliance. It was never it was always complicated But I loved the place, notot because it was my income, but because I liked the form of street theater. I loved it I like that things could happen sort on Medus Raz that you could just things could just happen. and that the skills that these young performers have would be useful not just as a performers as, you know how they did their work, whether it was in the business world, the creative world, wherever, that could inform their how they live their lives. And I wrote a book In two thousand eight at Disney published called Topperformer And then that sort of became My thesis was how to connect the arts or the performing with the business world But that uneasy Alliance part was where things got challenging. and I'd never had any Any issues in terms of complaints I'd never been in trouble with a law, nothing And in twenty seventeen, about the time, this is after Trump had been elected. The cast, obviously, it's a very progressive environment and Trump's presence, like it is with all of us became, you know deeply troubling and H It was royal to culture within these Renaissance festivals And when the M to stuff started to happen, it literally never occurred to me that I would be, you know, in this mix until twenty seventeen, two police officers showed up my door. And I let them in because I I liked the police. I thought they were decent people. Come on in, sit down. They're from the city I live in. They started asking me a lot of very pointed questions and they finally said that somebody had charge me with rape I asked them to leave and I called my wife I didn't believe it I didn't believe it. What's more? I didn't, you know, didn't I didn't think there was anything to it eventually got an attorney, we pushed back in the restraining order, and then we thought it was going go away Um, But then in june twenty eighteen, I was charged and arrested on two counts of felony sexual misconduct, which is One count on the violent rape and then another count. I'm not sure how they parse this out was. because I threatened to kill H two child or three children, her husband kill the family if she said anything Um, And it turned my life and everything upside down Everything I thought I understood about my work My relationships the objective truth who I am in the world, how I show up in the world, how people read or see me, what I believed about myself, whether it was the truth about me, the lies about me, whatever. I was so out of focus Um, because nothing made sense anymore. And we can get into some of the details of that, but from twenty eighteen, It was dismissed in twenty twenty during the pandemic because my accuser refused to travel to the state because of the pandemic because she apparently has a child that has some kind of illness, I don't know So they dismissed the case and then in twenty twenty one shortly after The Minnesota Department of Human Rights put out a statement saying that they found I had raped a photographer This photographer, then about a month after that, I would the charges came back again And the trial happened in June of twenty twenty two And in the course of that, about an hour hour and fifteen minutes The jury went into the jury room, it took about an hour and fifty minutes that included having lunch and picking a jury forman and I was acquitted just very quickly. Um, And so it took four years of my life to be acquitted And I can get into the details about that. I the most important detail for people that don't know about this is that Um We could not show a piece of evidence we had from the very beginning. My wife who was very thorough over everything and she went to the Minnesota Renaissance Festival Facebook page. and look to the date where either the Saturday or Sunday because my accuser couldn't remember what day it was At the time she said it happened eleven thirty in on a Saturday or Sunday. And on both days, I was doing a Facebook live, live streaming Facebook on their Facebook page, which has, I think, I don't know One of them was there's three more than three thousand people watching me stream On both Saturday and Sunday at that time in two different locations, I was streaming. The important thing is both of these are on the other side of the site And when they finally decided what day it was and they took to the stand and said what day it finally was, U her two accusers, or two supporters rather, got up on the stand and said They believed her. that was raping her at eleven thirty on this time this time and the closing microphone drop, if you will, is the video I had that we finally showed in court I was interviewing those two accusers a festival location a across the site at the very same time They both got on the stand and said I was on the other side of the s raping my accuser Um and the a couple of people the jury just looked at me. O woman shook her head. It just felt like Everybody kind of looked at each other like, what the fuck are we doing here? I mean, it was, but I had to wait four years to get to that. And it's very important that I taught you to use fuck that way Yes. Well, you know, yes because you know, You you and I started talking a lot during that time. You know, you'd call and joke about it Um, but I don't know if you have any recollection of what I sounded like during that time, but I was, you know, it is It is I had my coordinates were all gone. I didn't know where I was inent ake this very clear new car I was calling you because I love you. not because it was entertaining. Well, but you but you entertain me. you joked me and but you also made it really clear I mean, and this is hard, I mean, the first time you said this, I got it and I get it all all the time I don't know I don't know whether you did this or not My brother doesn't know whether I did this. My wife doesn't know whether I did this or not But or and It is unlikely given my history and given all the other But certainly all the other evidence we had. And the factor were somewhere else Yes, yes. But having people not not be able to say, well, I'm, you know, I'm with you. I don't believe you did this. but no one knows only My accuser knows and I know. And there's a lot of other the details are so nutty about this. What I said to My child As I said I didn't know because I wasn't there. and Moxy responded, It would be creepier if you were Yeah, I think you said that to me one time and I said you know, I wasn't there. and I think I said,, I wasn't either And you know, the thing The reason why I decided to work on this podcast, originally it was just going to be ten or twelve episodes it took People say, what's it like to be falsely accused? It's really aw. I got to tell me to say here Yeah, those episodes of you telling the story. I don't know how many it is But afterward you g into too many more intellectual and and deeper Sjects. Those tents U and I've had a lot of people listen to them or some of the most remarkable things I've ever heard and not because of the outrage of you being unjustly accused Fine. We've seen that before. I don't care What is inspiring, and that's the word to listen to someone falsely accused of rape and have that be inspiring. And I'm a friend of yours And if I were not I think I would find it even more inspiring because I would have been more surprised U The way you handle this without and I defy anyone to find the slightest drop of theis soyny Don't Traid in hate and I don't know how you do it U the whole thing is an exercise and a strong Find person goingo through torment taking that with a kind humanitarian approach. Now you were and the mk like during this time. I mean I wanted to set up the joke of not calling you for my entertainment but Truth outside of the joke was talking to you It was like, I imagine talking to a Zen master You were enduring in a way that was inspiring. And I want you to . this discussion the way you want to But you must tell, I would like you very much to tell The story of you being in jail. and what you asked to do Yeah, let me let me respond takeake takeake takeake your time with it. Oh will, a couple of things you said that I want to respond it to. So Um Once it's hard to imagine, I know because I couldn't imagine it when When I keep saying this that I lost the coordinates. I couldn't I didn't quite know where I belonged in the world. And Part of what I wanted in terms of how to get through this was at first I was I don't write about this at all because it's very personal. My wife saw sides of me at that time, suicidal I do talk a little bit about that in the podcast. There were some early days of rage, rage. where and I wasn't I would I just who had no sense of how to control what I was feeling and What happened is first I started reading a lot more. You were kind, by the way, you provided me with some meditation apps. which I used every single day I would sit here in my studio I should point out that some friends of mine after I was arrested. I get emotional about this They showed up with materials and built me this studio. So I had a place to work and be and sit and think and write and meditate And so once that meditation practice started, I made a decision partartly because of what my my mother taught me which was if I respond with this rage, if I respond with the animus or misogyny or hatred then I am simply repeating what's being done what these people did to me. I'm just going to spill it back out into the world. There's nothing to be learned from it. There's nothing for me to be gained by that.'s It takes me nowhere. It just feels good good. I wanted to have a purpose and I figured if I work through it, I would feel better over time U and You mentioned this this first episode, it's now the first episode in the podcast Uh, which I tell you later how you can you can get into it Well keep telling this over and over. Tell us No it's it's my car Hagerman d. com is my substack or you can go to out of the bllue podcasts. Both will take you to there And on the top it's a tab that says out of the blue podcast. click on that and there are all the episodes there or you can Apple podcast and all that right there. I also point out to people who are just listening and aren't seeing the screen, that you like me have a stupid name Our first name to our first name is a noun R with two Rs like you're driving it with two Rs and your last name is equally stupid. Yes, Hagerman. Hgerman, Yes, pen pen to ends car to Rs Yes, well, and it's easiy to remember, but though people people frequently say, So what's your name? Well, a car. No that your last name My first name is Car. They think it's my last name anyway. So I I originally had did these I released the podcast a couple of years ago loosely I was terrified, just absolutely I was terrified that I was going to say something wrong. I was going to get was I wasn't going to be accurate. so much time pouring over the evidence and what people said and what I said and times and dates. And I' my own producer, my own writer, my own voice, I did it alone And That first day And it was june, I think it was the thirteenth, I can' so many dates, but thirteenth of twenty eighteen Um, I had I had cameras put into my my home So after the police had visited in that October of the of ' seventeeen, I put cameras all over my home of perimeter cameras, everything And I get notifications whenever something's happening And this studio wasn't done yet. so it was in the basement of my home and I have a monitor with all those camer' on it, something pops up, it shows it and popped up and my dog started barking and I saw to plain G, there was no cop car, the regular car and At first that ties on. I I thought it was Jehoah's witness or something because it kind of looked like they were They were that's what they were. So of course, I didn't answer, I didn't answer it Uh, and then I called my wife and I said, I think They were the police were just here, but I don't know. Would you call the attorney? And she called and called me back and said, yes, they're there to arrest you. You've been charged with rape U and I got in my car instantly. they had left. I got in my car and I drove. and drove and drove and would stop, turn my phone off, turn it back on I don't want to be tracked. I was calling people saying goodbye I had I didn't even know what that meant. and then I thought, well, I'm to go to the Renaissance Festival and And's some pretty dark thoughts about what I would do to myself And eventually my wife convinced me to come home And I was finally got home and minutes after I was, you know, in my backyard, the place was surrounded by cops Guns pulled at a dog I was standing there with a pregnant best friend's wife was pregnant standing there next to me. all these guns out it was really Uh terrifying And they brought me to first to Henniben County jail where I was different rooms. It was I think I finally got it took away my insulin pump. I'm diabetic So my my glucose numbers were off the charts which makes the mind everything else even even feel crazier and they're not supposed to do that, but they did U I got into a room at about three, I think three in the morning and it was full of other men and I slept in the bunk and I didn't sleep at all that night and they called my name sometime the next morning early and took me out to Scott County, which is where I were county that charged me with this, the Renaissance Festivals of Scott Count And u they They took me to a very, very small cell U tiny closet like, I mean, not quite, but maybe a couple of closets, like a wal in closet with you know, jailhouse toilet and mirror and a metal sort of ledged with a blue mat on it and I got a sheet U U and kind of a blanket and something that was sort of like a pillow. and then a little bag full of likeike a toothbrush, a rubber toothbrush, a rubber pencil. Everything's rubber. So you can't hurt yourself And and that was it. And they shoved some food through just like out of the movies and through through a slot and I had a little window to look in and they would come by every once in a while and stare in see if if I was allright or needed anything And by law they were supposed to let me out every I think it was eight hours, but it would be twelve, fourteen hours. I'd be in this and there's no windows except for one lookingooking out at the pod So the first firstirst night there, I wept most of the night I was had anxiety that I'd never experienced, the likes of which I'd never experienced before and there's nothing I can do but lay there Lay there in wait And it was the second day or I don't know, maybe breakfast or something I felt like I had I had to do something to break down this sense of overwhelming anxiety that I was having. dad, I just I thought I'm going to dy in ha here. There's no information. Nobody tells you anything. You don't know shit. You're just in there and you look out and you see all these other people going in and out of cells It's just it's really just horrifying And they'd let me out occasionally, but I had to be let out alone because they told me, you know, we can't let you out with anybody else because we're afraid for your life. because people take a dim view of the things that you've been charged with. And by that time, I'd been in the news, I'd been all over the news Um For some reason, I don't know, I just didn't anticipate. That was gonna to be in the fucking news Anyway I sat on the edge of the bed and thought, I got to do something and I took whatever I had, which is my My pillows, my sheet U And I thought, well, what if I folded them But if I just spent two hours folding my sheet and my blanket and folded it over and over and over again. And the moment I'd stop I do it again, and Id try to do it in a different way. And then thought, well, now I've done that, why don't I place it somewhere in the end of my bed? so that it looks like it's a hotel room. I know this sounds absolutely nutty. Like it's like it's a place that I'd want to stay. and I folded one to hang off the edge of the bed and then another one like it was across the bed And then it looked it started looking looking okay. like, okay, this is this is better and I got up and I started counting the number of steps back and forth from the back to the front of the cell And I would just walk. and breathe and walk and breathe. and started speaking things. to the room as if I was in conversations with people that were there for me. U I took this entire space the guards, this is not in this is not in my my podcast. but one of the guards came in open the door at one point And he looked at and I go, well, I've sort of cleaned up the place. I made a joke. And he goes, ye, no nobody folds their stuff here And so I said, well, can I get a shower in Yeah, sure. Okaykay. So they let me out and I took a shower. Now the shower? was in a big room with a torn not like a shower curtain that just hangs there. It's not even it's just a Basically a shower head in a big room and a tiled floor. It's just cold and this shower curtain is really only to keep water from 's filling all over the room. and the place is cupoard in. soap scum and pubic hair. And it's it's disgusting beyond belief. I I just I took my shower and I went back in bed And I slept for the first time second time actually, then I sort of slept for a couple of hours. the next morning I got up and I called the same guard. I said, I got a proposal for you Would you mind if I cleaned the shower There's a little intercom so that's who I'm I'm talking to this intercom. He goes, what you want to w? an the shower. can I C you have something I can clean the shower with You want to clean the shower I just want to clean it. It's kind of disgusting About a half hour would by. The guy goes, I guess you can clean the shower. So the door opens And he goes, the cleaning stuff is over here and he's looking at me the whole time. Same kid that saw my how I'd fold it. It was, you know, He goes, why do you want to clean the shower I go because it's a shitole. It looks like hell U it goes What do you care? And they said, Well I'm used to showering in a nice shower I would like to have Someone come in you know, that's never been in jail before, even if they have to feel a sense of that maybe this is more normal that Their experience of the shower won't be what I had, which is disgusting and gross And he shook his hand He goes, nobody's ever done that before. I go, well, I want it. because go nobody gives us shit Nobody gives shit about folding their stuff. and this isn't to pat myself on the back. It is simply to say, what could I do to affect my environment that would make me feel better, me make me feel like I had a purpose that happened then the next day. so they're on day three now I asked to tire p Yes. How long did you take to clean the shower Um, about an hour, aboutb an hour and a half U, I had to scrub it. I was on my hands and knees I had I had to run across to get they had thisck bucket ofip I think at first they weren't sure 'ause they sort of stood and watched me, this guy like was he gonna hang himself or something? But I was so happy to be cleaning it. And the hangang yourself with a bucket. is Yeah Yes. Well, there was I could I mean the shower curtain was hanging there, could have, but and I did it naked. I had no clothes on because I didn't, I mean I only had one set of clothes So I'm I cleaned it I cleaned it naked And after it was done Uh, it looked fantastic. I mean, it looked good There was a point at which I said, could you I asked the guy, is it possible that you guys could maybe reis get a requisition get a new curtain for this? It's all torn. I mean, it's just torn, getet a new one And he looked at me blank blank he said that's been there for like three years. It's not going to get changed So the next day the next day comes up and I ask to clean the entire pot notot the individual cells who would let me do that the entire pod, which is I think thirty cells top to bottom and then a carpeted middle section and all these chairs and TV's and the walls. I claimed it all I vacuumed, I wiped down the chairs. U I wiped down all the doors. I wiped down the walls, I cleaned off the TV u all of it. and then I did that too A couple hours, I suppose U something like that. and then I let both it's really important for me to add this on both of these occasions. I put myself back in the cell and shut the door I wanted to make a statement that I wasn't doing this simply because I wanted to get out, which I did But I also had a purpose that I'm gonna do this because I want to do this And by setting the door, I was able to control saying, I'm done. And was that was sort of my way of signing my agreement with the guards who then eventually came to be much more friendly with me and Um And I can tell you more about that later, but they it was it was a well, this is an important in addition to that. When I finally was brought down to see the judge to have my bail hearing, which was set at one hundred thousand dollars Um, Um The guard brought me down and on the way down, You talk to me like a Like a human being, like we had a really nice conversation And he said, well, let's not go down that way. That's kind of a dark path. Let's go around this way. And very deliberately made sure that I felt comfortable Whereas before that, I was just sort of moved around as just another one of the inmates which is important to me because, um There's people in there that just I mean I met people who are in and out of there all the time and I don't I don't the level of indifference is is heartbreaking and I just didn't want to fall into that. I just needed to do something So I capture that in the podcast as the highlight of that, which is important It's really important. and I sat listening and just said I mean, that is an heroic act You know, u And it shows what your whole podcast is about. which is how could I turn Um What should be I can say that. which should be hatred. into kindness it's remarkable the emotional gymnastics that you're inro I share that guard's confusion Yeah in the story, I find myself thinking the same thing the guard is thinking, that I gott to watch this guy. What the hell is this going on here? Yeah L it it's strange Here's here's something I don't know if I mentioned it the podcast or not. I don't think I do So when I was brought to Scott County, the guards I could do a whole podcast just on my relationship with guards. I met and nurses I met along the way By the way, just thiss interjected here Deent people, I mean, their' indifference is not because they're bad people. They're indifference because they're in a system that is isn ind differenterent. It seems This is their job, right? But All of them were really kind and decent human beings trying to do the best they could in a really crappy crappy system Um when I was brought into the brought into Scott County the first time the end the first cell I went into I was there for like three hours and this was an even smaller cell very long. And no windows, not even a window on the door. So I can't see anything. It's just awful Midway through it, the door opens up. And a cart comes in and there's all this food on it fresh food. I hadn't had anything to really eat as some food. Like and there's a candy bar. there's like, this is not jailhouse boot And he shuts the door behind him And he says, hey, this is for you. I said, Well, thank you. And he goes There's some people that called in. they just want they wanted me to let you know that they know you didn't do this they know you wow this And I said, you can't tell me Because I can't tell you suuffice it to say that somebody networed here called in and talked to the sheriff. Oo Yeah, I found out later it was a sheriff And I found out later, he took the stand in my trial He came in and was one that was in during the trial. he took the stand and he's a sheriff. But he called there because he'd worked there for, I don't know, fifteen years and said, No way. Nope, noope, noope, noope, I know all the people involved. He also worked at the Renaissance Festival with me. So it's u my kindness to him, he told me later said, you Penn said about kindness. he said, you're You're always so kind to all the performers at the festival Um, and it showed up in the way this food showed up at my door Again, I don't know I don't know how you navigate a system like that. and come out You don't come out normal. you can't I maybe it's because I just I let it affect me that I really paid attention to what was happening. Close attention to what was happening I have friends that had been in jail ag go I didn't give a shit, I just wanted to get out. And so did I I just felt like I needed to make something of that. and That's that's turned out to be the story that I told in the podcast. It's If if people don't listen to anything else of your podcast No. They must listen It's free. It's the firstaster. It's free. That first I should explain a few things about the podcast I initially wanted to put it all out for free. But you can go to Substack and put your email address in it won't have to pay anything. And then you can go right and look at the episodes and listen to the stuff that's free There are some that are not free and there's reasons for that in that they they cover more specifics about the trial that I want people to pay for it to get into. because there's a lot of rabble rsers that will listen to free shit and then want to come in and attack me and I have been I've had my fair share of abuse because I have chosen to do this. Stop would say Dark, stop would say You've had more than the fair share of abuse. So I would say I'm not saying I'm just saying somebody said it Let's talk about lifelong learning Yeah, because Thinking about things other than what you disagree with people about is really good. And lifelong learning is really good. And when you become a member of Masterclass Got sllide. And You learn about everything. and yes, you can learn a little bit about politics, Nothing wrong with that. You know you're learning about AI, learning about all sorts of things, but you can also learn to cook and be an astronaut and be a director and be an actor and be a comedian and be a writer. and you can learn to just wonderful things you wouldn't think of. I love the ones on food and habits, there's psychology ones. And the important thing to remember is once you're a member, You have access to all these classes. Oh. And u you also, uh, you get I mean, do you want to you want to lay on them some of the instructors? I mean, Steve Martin, Ron and Howard are always the ones I go with. Sw out a few more there. Well, I'm there's a new one down there the new rules of wealth that's one of those taught by multiple people. It's one of those like single you know what And this got Eric Brighter Johnson. that you heard me Disa Mooyo and Michelle Meyer And so it's a bunch of different economic people telling you how to navigate the modern economy versus the economy of the past, an AI impacted economy They seem to be finding the best experts to be concerned with how AI is shaping our future in the most current offerings Michelle Meyer, did you see the thing at the end of her masterclass that said, And if you want to talk to someone and call them by name, you probably want to choose me It's a great thing. You get u you get an annual membership It's not only is it reasonably priced, but also if you go to masterclass Dot com slash Anden You get fifteen percent off, fifteen percent off. It sometimes more than that. It depends on what offers they're running, but it's really a great thing and they support us Ver, very much. Go to masterclass G Lash P Amen Let's let's let's, you know, I don't know if you want to jump forward a little bit, but you know, when we were out at the festival last year That was just I mean, that was just an experiment in how it was all going it was all going to go. because, you know,, I just I really want to tell that story, but I don't know if you want to jump let me jump to this now or what do you want what I want to do is This is so u It's awful to do something is so miserable for you and yet so funny and amazing U I think you need to tell the story of what she said You get to her and how the jury reacted and the time frrame Okay. that's' really and it's really important to people understand this, right So when I first heard the accusation, I wasn't laughing I was It was not funny at all because I was I read, I mean This is what this is how it shows up. I just happen to this this is what you get. This is this is it right here And it's everything she describes in detail So let me go through that just the highlights of it. because it's very nutty. And imagine imagine the jury listening to this. That's the thing that meLap is imagining being on the jury and hearing this. It starts first of all, my attorney is she's now she got out of it. She's not doing criminal law anymore. This case is about broker. You know, she she took this onm thinking this is going to be just, you know, u u u sort of a boilerplate jury rape case, whatever, right? And she realized once we got into it that this was really, really nutty. What was being said about me. and where it was It was going to have happened. probablyroably when she's first Call figured this is something she'd play out and try to get you as low a sentence as possible. Yes. I mean, she must have figured this is the way we're going to do it. Well and she must be rather startled. to find out Well, here's a reisance one. Here's here's here's the tell One of the toughs early on, there was a story by I think it was Minnesota Public Radio. Uh not my favorite, not my favorite news outlet, but in the story at the end of the story, as an attorney wants to do I can't say anything. So she says, you know u he's innocent and she said Mr. Carr is innocent And so she was using my name as a last name And that was a tell because She couldn't remember my last name. I was just you know, she was defending me. We hadn't spent that much time together and I realized it wasn't until after that that stuff starting to come in that she really switched her focus and she and my wife became quite engaged in sort of unraveling all these Very strange details. So At the festival in the center of the festival site is a building called Bad Manor It's it's an old building sort of a u It's like a chateau it's inside it they have this thing called the Feast of Fantasy. It's a seven course meal You pay the ticket, you get free entertainment and you you know eat and drink and there's live music and whatnot It's a lot of fun hosted by some friends of mine And it's very, very popular. on the second floor of it is this very you know, dirty kind of dressing room area and there's another couple of floors above it. Just dusty old carpets and crappy chairs and It's the green area And it's wide open this door We've all been there, Carg. Yes Yes Mat has been at his share of bad green rooms and dressing rooms. So is ready. Yeah ye. Have you gone and cleaned it naked yet No It's but it's it's really derelict space Until until I working with Penn, I didn't think there were good green rooms, but turns out there are So she u She claims that she's a photographer. I met her This is the accuser not the li Myer The accuser is is a is a is a photographer. I met her at the Professional Association of Photographers of America has a local chapter that I've been a member of and not anymore, but She was part of that. We met briefly, and she's a good photographer And she really liked the festival And so she was paying to come out every weeke and she had really, really great pictures of interactions. She had a good eye for catching stuff And so I said, Well, you know, if you want, I'll give you a free pass to come out If you want to take photos, Uh give them to take some in exchange for your free pass. You don't have to pay to comm in. I'll give you some food books and whatnot If you'll share those photos with the marketing department and they can use them online, they'll give you photo credits or if they use them in print ads or stuff, they'll pay you. That was the extent of it. Great, greatreat choice to do that The first year, totally she seemed totally in love with everything she was doing there.. We didn't spend any time together. I would just see her on weekend shooting blah blah This is like a second or She wasn't there much and on the third year, I believe it was the third year. I didn't see her at all. and that's twenty seventeen. U maybe one time, I think we chatted in a, you know, just briefly. It was on a afterfternoon she said around eleven thirty. So this feeast of Fantasy haall She said I took her to take some photos. uppstairs. Now this is all in the press. This is I'm not saying anything this is this is all written about to take her high point where she could get Advantageous photos of festival from a high pointint which is possible because there's all these you know, windows and stuff, but I don't believe that's I don't believe I ever took her up there Um and again, there's a ton of people in that space And then she said, as we're going up the stairs It's an important point She notices is that she had a pink ribbon on which was part of the Order of the Paint Garter, which is a group set up by women for women to to help them deal with drunks and, you know, out of control people and whatnot. and sort of online support group, if you will. I think I have that right And she said I became outraged that she was wearing this pink ribbon And I threw her in this room called the it was called a drum storage room And it's probably maybe eight eight feet across by ten and no ceiling. it's just got this wall, you can see right through the walls boarded walls in a door with no handle on it. And there's tyimpani drums and people's store shooting in there's very, very small She claims I threw her in this room and I shut the door And then, you know, violated her again And again And again Five times. She said I u in the in this is in the police report I Every orifice that was available, I apparently did it to her. Um, and u said that if she said anything I would I would you kill a family? Yeah But you have to say She didn't just say that you violated everywhereish She said it's orgasm every five times Yeah. F times. five be said. and let me. Let let me cross exam Let me cross examineed U How much time was this? five times She says it was a half hour Okay. And how old of you car I was sixty at the time Okay, okay. So At that point, the jury is not just acquitting you, They're building statues to you, right Well, my in the closing in the closing statements, my lawyer Lking at the jury, I'm behind her, looking at the jury. and she said, And of course my accuser, she said Mr. Heggerman ejaculated five times and then turns and looks at. And the entire jury looks at me And up the five times sn H. That's nutty. I mean The danger in saying all of this is to make it sound in any way Like I think this is funny Like I thought this was funny because it's make very clear I think it's funny. Yes So so did my I so get somebody in the jury. I think it's funny that you also described it as nutty Well, I mean, do you but you understand why why I'm saying that is like there are people that will hear this and they've heard my podcast They write to me going Well, you know, you're What about women that this actually happened to? I'm not addressing that I know that this has happened to women This did not happen Um Right and there is a ridiculousness to theseese details holding you prisoner for four years Exactly. Well to the rest of his life. Yeah, the rest of my life. And then she later claimed again, this is this is again why this law is so the laws are so strange So we're now in June, we're later After I've been arrested, I'm out of jail She has another memory She remembers more. This time, she remembers a woman opening the door Mind the way, there are no there's no handle on the door The door does not lo. You can look right through the hole or you can just open it. It's a hollow core closet style door that you can just open She' open the door. a woman is in a full regal dress. And she's got she's reached down to pick up the pink garter on the ground. And she's rubbing it on her chest while I'm raping my accuser going Oh, and smiling and laughing. This is in the police report. smmiling and laughing go, you deserve this, you deserve this. And my accuser to quote saying, and they were flirting. Wow He was raping me I mean U I would say you can't make this up, but somebody did. in it and that was added and she, you know, that that person is somebody I know And her life was thrown into into this. I want to I want to apologize here U, I wanted to get in the absurdity Oh that And because of the style that Matt Ready and I have We did laugh And um I want to make clear that if any was appalled at us laughing at that We also agree that it's appalling to laugh at that. And u That's That's one The reactions that a human being has And I hope, I know that you know. that I care for you and my laughter is not in any way until I get you I know that you know that, but I want peopleeople that are listening to know how much I love you and care for you and how far we go back. and we can laugh at each other about anything m Car is always is absurd. I mean, and ye the most absurd things are the funniest And I also want to make very clear that u watching you from a distance go through this I want to make very clear did not change my position. even a millimeter people who are actually raped and the percentage of people are actually raped. And let's add to this the countless number people who have been raped and not believed and dismissed by a patriarchal society didn't change my position on that at all. It just happened. that of course, with very big numbers, some people are going to be falsely accused and it happens to be you. You're the guy the piano fell on I am I had no idea when I started What a Qagmeer of of the data around this is because I believe just what you said exactly, I knew going in, I held to that. I didn't want to I had no intention of going in and trying to Prove Otherwise because I have friends that have been raped. I have a very close friend who has a horrible rape story and she is veryery much on this if there is a side on this on the side of kind of the Moop. and yet an ardent and clear headed supporter of my of my internal debate how to talk about this in a mature way without being misogynistic. without being women hating and without dismissing the very real harm, that not believing victims causes And in the environment we are in now It's really difficult because It were so polarized that there like for instance, I'll give you an example just today Got a phone call from a family. and online Apparently yesterday. Another family member was responding to An family member about whose was posting something about a community he's in he's in the artistic community and they're talking about the problem of misogyny in the arts community and They're putting together of a community board and stuff And some conversations started happening about U we should never let the rapists off the hook And that caused a family member Get on Facebook and start chiming in about a family member, which would be me And u It evolved someomeoneat very close to me engaging online and then offline in a very ugly exchange U unwilling to consider that they were wrong They said no you once you're accused and I almost quote verbatim here, but once you're accused, You cannot. cannot be not you can never get off of it It's one hundred It's just the way it is U they he said, I will not look at any data. I will not consider any evidence because he was accused That's all we need to know And so by saying it's vanishingly rare it is, but also People do get wrongfully accused and their lives are ruined. And I hear from them. And I hear from men who have lost their jobs, lost their wives, lost their families who had an uncomfortable interaction with a student at a high school. Again, I won't give any names away, lost everything. He goes, I never touched her But I gave her a score that she didn't like And we had a conversation and she went home to her mother and her father and said, he touched me in the closet U He's never been in trouble in his life his career is over with I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that because now'm I have so many people coming to me to tell their stories Um, and you don't, you don't want to be that guy. No of them are lying to you A hundred percent. I know Yeah You don't want to be that guy. You don't want to be a crusader. No. And that's why my podcast is not but I do, as you know, I'm grappling with some of these things. and maybe I'm wrong to grapple with them. you know, maybe asking questions about why why the press immediately takes a position on something when we don't know. All I'm asking is We should know the data better, we don't. The media should certainly know the data better than they don't. They should be articulate in being able to explain the challenges of the data of sexual violence. And yet when you look online, the same stuff is quoted over and over again and it's very, very confusing If you don't know what is being quoted or what the questionnaire was that people were asked, or where does the national rape sururvey come from? It talks about These aren't even charges that were made against people It's it needs more research, it needs more U academic Look at this, but nobody really wants to touch it because it's so fraught And I'm in, you know, I'm into it, u I'm in deep into it. and there are days I just go I think I called you when I got a phone call. I've gotten several from people. comeome on my podcast. I look at what they're going I know what they're going gonna want to talk about. Yeah, fuck all these me two women. fuck all this like, I'm not there at all. I never was there. That's not wor. And the polarization, it's so strange because you are on the opposite side from yourself. We have a president The United States of America who said recorded, you just grabbed them by the pussing It is the most misogynist nalistic culture you could possibly have. and I believe we all agree with that And yeah thingsings that still happen. if we to men as well Well, I mean, I have a I have an episode coming up about the permission structure that Mr. Trump, unfortunately, Craigs in that because he's so polarizing There is just no nuance. You can't have a conversation like we're having here and company because You're just going to get, you're going to get. trashed and because U All of which is true Uh, but, you know And you could be called a Trumper No matter how much you dislikeem I haven' been called I have been called u yeah, You're misogynist, so you must have supported it. You must have voted for Trump But but misogyny is certainly not part of any one party.'s's it's everywhere I am I I think that the thing that You and I talked about was, you know, where do I go Who do I talk to? Be that The consonservatives are the ones that will talk to me And some of them have enormous audiences that would change my life if I were on their podcasts But it would also change my life if I were on their podcast. it would change your heart. W that's It would change it change in a way I don't want to change. Yeah And it so that means kind of means poverty U I don't really have this is sort of a version of past the hat. I work extremely hard on these podcast episodes, writing them Um And, you know, I charge a little bit every month and sort of passast the hat, But here's the, I don't have any turnover. People have stayed with me And I've heard from a lot of people, some with some that you know have written to me One in particular has wrote to me recently talking about How humane this all is and he's, you know, he's had his life turned inside out, you turned turned him on to this And that means more to me than getting a lot of amens from people who want to just disparage the M too movement. It's not my interest. For Christ' sake, I grew up in a home of this. My mother was an ardent feminist. I grew up in a home where we took in women who were being abused I grew up this is I was incullicated in this these these ideas. I'm not at Also I'm not going give up things u I won't talk about that, but you also have had You've had different troubles in your life You know yes I can talk about it if, I don't mind Well, I'm certainly not going to bring it up. You have I think it's worth I think it's worth bringing up. becausecause it gives me an insight that I think, I don't know if I took it out of this podcast. It was in the first iteration. I took it out. An editor friend of mine in New York suggested that, you know, It's maybe that's a separate podcast. When I was eleven years old, I went to a YMCA camp and was raped there for aboutb a week by my counselor And u It was a The guy that ran the camp was a friend of my mother's My brother worked at the camp Uh, and um, They chose to believe my counselor. or at least to tell the parents that. I was probably making it up which puts me in an odd position because I'm now arguing, you know, think about this I'm saying my accuser justust made this up. you know, um Well, I I was accused of making it up Back when I was a kid. U, and I've carried that forward great story about that. and So that happened a YMCA camp and it was foundational in my life because it was caused a lot of problems in my family growring up when I became an adult into puberty, it was It was a real damage to my to my emotional well being in my psyche. And YMC was always like The evil the evil place for me. I Nothing to do with them anymore And when I started speaking, I got my U, my agent said, Got a call from the YMCA They'd like you to come out and speak at an easastern conference of all these camp directors. No And he said, why? And I said, Well, this is a thing. He goes, why don' you talk to this guy? his name is John. Why don't you just give him a call So I called him And I said, you can't speak to all these camp directors. I meet I think like five hundred of them or something like that. out in the West Virginia And I told them my story And he goes, this is really interesting and I thought he was gonna to cancel. He goes, I'll tell you what, I'm gonna hire you twice First time you come out, just speak to the group Um and do your thing Second time I want you to come out spepeak to a smaller group. I don' want you to tell And so he brought me out again to a small room. I don't think I told you it. I didn't know this. So this is one of the most magnificent moments of my life. I was terrified, but I put together a presentation. It was my family history Up to that point my mother's relationship with the YWCA, YMCA very involved in uh, you know, Feminist issues, like I said, I grew up like this And H came into this it was a camp. I can't remember the name of the camp, a beautiful Y camp. And it was u mixed gender. So there were men and women in all races that were there. It' probably about Maybe fifty or one hundred on These are the directors of I think regions, if I remember of the East cooast Young, vibrant And on the stage, I had a chair. U And screen behind me, that was it no props U and I only had a computer up to the side because I had to control my PowerPoint And I sat in the chair And I told the story Fty five minutes, I think is what I spoke and Basically the whole idea of the presentation was Just remember some kid coming off a bus It's coming from a broken home as I was, a divorced family and wants someone's attention so bad They're willing to accept U bad things happening or confusing things happening. before they say anything or if they do say anything, They might not be believed. You have to remember these things, these kids each have their own baggage with them. I got done I could feel the room. I had moved to the room And they all stood up M. Clapped and applause And they all moved. to the stage Got on the stage and surrounded me with their arms and started to sing I wept. I couldn't couldn't Tch my breath Um They said things like this I remember this one young uh, uh Kid, I don't know, probably twenty years old Um He said, he grabs my face. And he said, just remember love Love Love That was it I had a meal with we broke we had breakfast or something And it was astonishing But there's another part of this. The kid that took me Pick me up from the airport, bring me back. It was driving the sedan they had for me It stayed through the presentation And so he had to bring me back was time my flight wasn'tntil later. And so said, well, let's grab a bite to eat in this nice restaurant in Charlotte And we sat on the street. And I had a glass of wine, I think. we were just having a nice conversation. probablyb in this late twenties and He started asking me a lot of questions. He said, Well, how do you tellell this kind of story. I mean it's so personal. I mean How do you get? How do you how do you get there? How do you process that and we were frightened, frightened. I go, Yeahah, I was terrified And I said But you know The fear it simply informs behave, you're like ye Yeah, I'mfraid and I'm going to do it anyway. Fuck it, I'm going get on stage. If I fail, I fail, whatever. He goes, but but you move these people and you you're talking about being raped and yet at the end of it, you didn't seem embarrassed and you didn't seem like it was a you like it was a secret And I realized while we're talking He's telling me Ke's telling me His story. So I put down my fork And I leaned across the table and put my hand on his hand And I said Jimmy What Are you asking me for? Oh, nothing, nothing. I just am' curious. I go No no, no There something's going on here. I can feel this. I mean, I mean maybe I'm wrong, but What's going on is that there's nobody here but me, noody, nobody, just you and I. And he pushes his chair back because I just don't. I don't know I just don't. don't I hold on. T take a breath Told on. Tell me what happened to you Church Catholic Church qu ultra boy Raped? by the priest For years. No one in his life knew. He had told no one I was the first one he told in his life I said, you didn't tell your brothers or I told my brother one night but he was really drunk and he passed out and he didn't remember it Jesus Christ He said he said, what advice can you give me? I said, Tell everybody. When you leave here, tell everybody. Tell fucking everybody. Don't worry about what the world thinks. Tell them. tellell the cashier, tell everybody. I was raped. tellell them. Don't worry about it. justust get it out. If people are offended, they want to run, fuck ' them. it's their problem Tell her G just tell them? Tell them Tell my tell the server if you want I don't think I can do that. So we took me to the airport gives you this hu I said, well, good luck to you By the way, he was engaged to be married She didn't know Here's where this story just gets even crazier year goes by, maybe a year and a half. I get a call from my co author, Steve Lundine, who I spoke with He and I would speak We go to London and stuff and do these co events together And He said, There's a young woman here who wants your address and I don't feel comfortable with giving it to her What is she Okaykay, what is she? She says You saved her husband's life. I don't remember jumping in the water or rescuing somebody out of a burning car. I like what? She s about something about camp. I go Jimmy' Yes's his wife Okay. Yes, I g gave him the dress and he called me later and here's the story He came home that night Sat down and said to her I'm going to tell everybody. I was raped when I was in school school and at church. for almost like eight years You need to know left there with his fiance, went to his house wentind to the house and said everybody come on I have to I'm going to tell everybody told everybody. What happened What she said to him to my friend and then later in a note was It was the first time in his life anybody had given him permission to say to tell everybody to tell everybody. And that's why I'm doing this podcast. I have to tell everybody. I simply have to tell it over and over again because if I don't, it will corrupt my system. It will make me feel bitter and angry Um, It will make me hate Like this kid Instead, he got a chance to go back home and claim his marriage and has kids now And that's not any that's, you know, you say this is not heroic. It is simply what people who are victims have to do for one another. If you hold your story, it doesn't it stays inside you and when you release it People get to find themselves in that And that's why I do this. That's why I want to do it So that's what are you keep talking because I can't You know, it is it is remarkable in in the in the victim community and I have by the way, have become friends with Uh women who have been raped violently. and we've had these conversations And they feel in many ways, many in their community. women who have been raped don't feel like they can speak out and say things. They don't feel like they can say, this is my story. This is what happened because of all this ugly legal shit or the media, the social media, that think I'm going to be canceling. This one woman I interacted with said, you know I just want to tell my story. I don't want to cancel anybody I just want people to know it's true. It happened. It's true. It happened to me Um, and That's when when those stories are kept under lock and key. That's when they become dangerous. That's when they become weaponized. That's why this business with Eric Swawell, who I have a mixed feeling about, but you know, youce once the Once the dam is opened and you All these people come forward. In many ways, I think it's because there is so much backed up that we want to tell. and that when one person can take their finger off the damn, it's a deluge. Um, And so I spent a lot of time coaching other young people who had been violated when they were in their youth U and help them cope with their struggles, but nothing was more rewarding to me than that YMCA and the guy John that brought me out there is somebody I still communicate with. And he said the greatest thing to me when afterward, I go Wow that's just what happened. Wow, and he looks at me, he goes, and you're surprised And you're surprised. It goes, I wasn't surprised at all. It goes, I sat in the back of the room and the moment you started, I said, Everybody's life's gonna be changed today, including mine I mean, mostly mine I love that he says that you're surprised, which really means you're a fucking idiot Yes. What you're you should have said what you're surprised No. I was surprised. I just wasn't I didn't know. I mean, I'd held on of that for so long And this, you know, this is where improv skills help because I mean, I got on stage about midway through. I was like Okay, I'm I'm right on the edge of getting into this really awful stuff. And I feel like I'm going to lose a room if I don't lighten up somewhere in here And so I told a brief story of something that had happened to me at a Rnaaissance festival that broke the ice a little bit to get everybody laughing so then I could then takeake the next step and kind of I want to say this is a public service. Just so they don't misunderstand when you say improv. You are not suggesting A person being raped should say yes and. I know. No No, no. People kind of misunderstood that you said your improv hard No. I mean, only an improv does yes mean yes, right Sorry, Matt. Oh Yeah ye, I'll take the brunt on that sure. Well, you know, Matt, it's interesting, you know, because I think you knew some people that up here that were kind of kind of around some of this stuff at the time. And, you know, that that community, you know that impmrov community up here and the Rnaissance festival Very, very tight Very tight Yeah. and pride themselves on being progressive and everything. Yeah. Yeah. All of which is fine I you know, I didn't lose I didn't lose many friends in in my theater community, though they unfriended me because people don't want want my name to appear, which I got over early on. likeike I get it. I'm radioactive. I just kind of understand that people need to protect their turf and their lives. That's hard. I mean, did you get over it very early? That seems very hard.. It is trying to find analogy to Yeahah, because It was like right away. I'm not a big facebook. I use Facebook just to sort of keep in touch with people. It's not like, you know, like sending notes here and there to people. But what happened was right after I was arrested, first of all, my Facebook page loaded up with really awful stuff Um peopleeople were sending me notes and then eventually it was sending me I was having my life threatened and all of that So then people were going through my Facebook page and finding people that I'm The two and sending them notes S did you know this? Did you know this? Looking for photographs Did you know this Um Facebook played a part in my trial, in fact. So my wife and I went on a vacation in twenty seventeen to October.rove from Minneapolis to route sixty six down to the Grand Canyon and back Fantastic trip we had And we went to Cadillac Ranch and I set my camera up low. It took a picture of us standing next to all those you know spray painted cars. Yeah Yeah, and and and you can see I'm wearing a pair of new balanance shoes with an N on them The reason that's important is in the police report, they asked what I was wearing She said he's wearing blue jeans I don't I never wore blue jeans there I always, you know, didnt I wasn't wearing that She said he's wearing shoes with a big black N on them to have shoes on with a bleue black end because I had purchased them after the festival that year was over She said, I smoke cigars. I don't smoke cigars. She said I was taking blue pills and my eyes glowed bright red Um, All of us is nutty They used my picture at the annt fararm and online. They were scouring photographs. This is I mean, it's the only way they would have seen that because I never wore the shoes around anybody. I literally bought them the day or two days before we went on the trip, and those are the shoes they describe His ns. It's it's it's pretty I could ask this just because Other people will ask you And I I kind of know what your answer is going be U I'm just afraid if I don't ask it. Yeah People are going to wonder Why did she do that car I don't know I don't I don't know. this There's a few things in that answer that I think are I've come around to. I can't know, I don't know I don't hate her Um, I don't pity I wonder I've had fantasies about being able to talk to her and go why? Could you tell me why? Because I never had a bad interaction with her, I don't know why I don't know And then the people that supported her, particular two women, who I cover the podcast were people I considered friends I don't know why they did. I think they believed it. Um Someone once said to me, said, Well, I warned you that those people were bad, but you didn't listen to me And I hate that because that makes makes me wrong for that they were my friends. I think the conditions changed and people believe things that I don't know why they believed. I don't know, but they did. And you know, that's there's so many I don't knows in this And's most honest question I'm going to push the answer. I'm not going to let you get off that easy. There was munnoney involved, wasn't it there? Yeah There was considerable money involved U Let me separate this a bit because there's two parts two parts to this. One A couple were given out of court settlements They were in a civil trial They were included with my accuser. There were three of them that were brought in the civil case. My accuser and these two other women, both of whom, one of whom made a statement to the press One of whom took the stand for my accuser. Those two were awarded out of court settlements a full year before the trial. I don't believe either of those women were in it for money because u One in particular, I think she literally just wanted me to get rid of me to have me not there anymore. She had a long axe to grind with me. We had a fight in twenty eleven. She was a good friend of mine. I know her well. I don't think she wanted it money. I think she had a personal issue with me The second woman I think it was the same thing. I think she was just But my accuser I think money had to have been involved because it was substantial. And she was life chang again. life changing. She was awarded out of court. a year prior The festival admits no wrongdoing The Minnesota Department of Han Rights puts out their business. and I don't know. and it's very frustrating when you look at this to say, No wrongdoing And we're going to give you this money. And the insurance company said we know this is a nuisance lawsuit And the only one that gets hung And this is me I don't get I don't you know, I get my life back. I'm not in jail and that in prison and that is That is a really good outcome But I can't, you know, Alth all that shower's got pretty funky since you left. Yeah, I might I'm thinking maybe I should go back in there and clean it again and post it saying this is a shower. Actually did go back to the to the the bail room last year where I was, you know, where I bail was set and hadad to experience it all over again to see it again pretty Pretty uncomfort. to see it. Oh D No I know this is this is this is not your usual light fare for Sunday school. But you know, D you ask about the money? The money is't really u I don't know how you So their' civil attorney. had a civil attorney who had to have known that there was, you know, problems with this, but their job is not to ask questions, theirir job is to work for their clients and I find myself always wanting to see the better angels in all these people to go, He wass trying to do a good thing and this is what he got caught in. and I have friends and sometimes my wife just pushes me to go like Maybe people are just assholes and they're shitty And that's why they did this, but I don't know Um If you hit me in my face, I'll say you're an asshole and you're shitty, but I wasn't there for the meetings. I don't know what they discussed or what he believed. I don't know. That's So my podcast is in essence two things. It's one the story, but also me grappling with this milu of of rape accusations and people that are accused and watching people's lives get instantly destroyed or seeing you know, people that have it's I mean, so often the news is goes the other way. It's He's guilty, move on. And I'm trying to say, well, maybe we slow down and look at some of these things. What do we need to learn from what's happening Here and here and here Um, do we instantly just because there's an accusation That's it Um I want to look and u Maybe that's an unpopular position to take, but You know, nobody no one in the press stopped to ask about me They just rolled over me and they never corrected anything It's all still there. You can just you can you can go in so why I can't get meaningful work. All you have to do is a social media post search And my my fucking headshot my jailhouse mug shot shows up Now Some of the jobs you've been turned down for are remarkable. Oh my God. ye, I couldn't walk dogs U Grub hub Could't do that? even volunteer jobs because if you now it's customary to not only do it background search and I have no criminal history I have a couple of parking tickets and nothing Um And they do a social media search And that just brings up All of it, just all of it All of it right there Um And there's nothing I could do about that. can't I can't I can't change it. They won't take it down So u good luck in getting a job. So that's why I do the podcasts. That's why I'm doing some photo work. I still do a little bit of voice work here and there Um, and I do some dog walking, but, you know It's not the same life I once had U At least professionally speaking. And I will say one last thing before I mean, whatever you want to shift to here Um My my partner is Yeah, we had we had to get to that. I was going to bring it around to that, but you need to It is u She Um, We've been we've been together thirty seven years now And she worked out there. She ran very successfully ran four coffee shops there. so she knows the place well and she knew all the players in this as well which is important uh she picked me up from the jail U and we went out and had lunch and that evening came home And I was exhausted and went to bed, and I was waking up with nightmares every night, sccreaming nightmares Night terrors. they went on for quite a while I'm And then she would come home and see signs. when she would go to work, see signs at Oh things weren't right, I didn't put things away Things were in disarray kept talking hyper talking about suicide and I just I want to be free of this I don't want you to be put through anything. I don't want my friends to be put through anything Im Um, So she would come home sometimes notot knowing what she was going to find And so in the way She said to me one time just need to take care of yourself. I'll take care of all of this. Now You expect a wife to say that She meant She's going to take care of All of this And so we made a decision early on that I wasn't going to look at anything Once once the evidence came in, I didn't look at it Be I knew what I knew I didn't do this And the more I would look if they showed me pieces of it, I would come out of my skin. I couldn't believe it People were making There's so much more that I'm not going into stories about me, parties I was at where I did stuff. I wasn't even I don't even know these people. I've never been to these parties So she, because she knew everybody, she was able to go through piece by piece of everything. Timestamps. She went through all of the internet stuff to find it. She went through every piece of evidence, and it's It's in a file cabinet. It's ates a milk crates full of it. All of it with Post it notes on it likeike My attorney said she had never had a paralegal so thorough and so quick as my wife Marion was She could instantly find it and She said to me, the attorney said, both of us, you I'm not sure we would have won this case had your wife not done the work because she knew the underside of all this and could find things that an attorney And an investigator would never have found, right And she brought it forward like the video that I was somewhere else on that day. That was her and keeping me from killing myself as her, making sure I would go out and walk. And that's when I started walking, you know, six miles, eight miles a day, which I still do U She made sure that if we if we had a drink, I'm not a drunk. I don't get drunk. I don't think I've been drunk a day in my life But during that time, I sure felt like'm just I'm just gonna learn how to be a drunk now because it feels better to sit and drink than how awful it felt. But she kept me like, let's have a couple of glasses of wine and that was it. U I didn't, you know, I had some anxiety medications and I decided to keep off that again because of her See me through this. She got my attorney through this And I'm the last Yeah, G qu., please finish onn the last day When I was acquitted. And u So much to say about this Um We knew it was probably going to be good because we've got the call right away. Mary and I was sitting. on a ben we were having a cigarettet becausecause I started smoking for like a week. I used to smoke but I thought I'm going smoke during this week. whatever You're holding hands and the phone rings and she looks at me She goes, this is going to be good news. And I didn't know So held hands, went inside, sat next to she sat behind me Everybody's holding hands. My wife is right behind me on my side of the that room are all my friends All of them Chris was there All these festival people And on that side Marion's right behind me. I am sitting standing next to my Charnie hold her. The jury comes in First count Not guilty The gasp back here was unbelievable. People started to cry second char notot guilty and then We were instructed not notot to say anything, but by that time everybody was trying and going through this this emotional catharsis. And the jury is leaving One juror looks at me and just nodded. It was I'll never forget it I know exactly what she told me My wife and I get into the hallway And my attorney, we said, on'ce you come we're gonna go down and have a bite eat the celebratory, the champagne or something And she was, I can't Very coldly I can't. I've got to go. I've got some other things I got to do, but we'll catch up later in m insisted that would you come? No what? found out later She and Marian were so close, she told this to Marian I drove two blocks away, put my car and park and wept I wept and wept and wept She goes, I was so terrified. I was going to lose And if I was going to lose, I will never be an attorney again There was, I was never so I've never had a case or I was so certain I had to win than this And um That is in large part because of Marion's connection to my attorney I' my question If your attorney was so good to you And Marion was so good to you Why do you hate women? Theoretical In theory. In theory, I'm just testing the theory. you know, yes, no Yeah, you know, people ask me though this is pen in all seriousness, people will say, well, I've had conversations where people go, well, you know, you can't trust women and almost like, I'm just so not there. This is a this is an outlier This is an outlier in my life. is This is not my experience in life. This is not my experience of women in my life. This is one woman or a handful of women who got engaged around The passions of me too, many of whom had good reasons to be to say things about other people. Um that I that I understand I didn't change my mind. I didn't change my mind during it. you know, it just I don't hate women. I'm not. My wife's incredible. Yeah. Oh know you know my wife you know my mom too. I do. I knew your mom and I know your wife. Yeah. We know each other a long time, car. Yeah, My mom used to say, you know when you and Penn are walking side by side You guys look like you're u you're the same your brothers And I've had more than one person come back from Vegas and go, is he your brother? I go why is this That'd be aning Yes. Yes. and an He's a tall guy But you remember, you guys have to remember, we traveled in a little car all the way down to Texas With Chris, you and I listening to AM Radio preachers on AM Radio and you played mix tapes for us the whole time. It's the first time I heard any mean you went to all these stories and ch that by the way, changed my life. And then you introduced me to Pat Whitney who Patrick Whitney, another guy who I think He came up with a name hardardneck Gillette, I believe. wasas that his neck? He did it. Yeah. That was his yeah. H neck. Yeah. so mean It this very strange conversation, I mean, painful to talk about these things, but also, you and I We've had some really fun times together in our shows. loose end A loose end I think for the for listeners from the beginning of the pod is when you went back to the Renaissance fair Oh, I would love to talk about that. By the way, remind people, carar Hagermman. com two ours H A G E R MA are out of the bloobe podcast d. com And you can go there and find it. It's free. So last year, I took my air stream out to New York to visit a friend of mine who lives in upstate And u It was just this incredible trip I've written about it, you can hear it on the podcast And on my way home I known that penateeller, wasve known for some time the pen and teller were going to visit the festival. And then I started hearing from people, I's going fly in a fucking helicopter I got, okay, I don't know if that's going to happen, but I know they're coming. And on my way home, I get a call from the business manager at the festival He says, I just heard rumor that you're planning on coming out to the Renaissance festival And I go he goes, I hope that's just a rumor I go, No, it's true. I've been invited to come and watch Penantell her You know, just come out see their show I should say here, it was our fiftieth anniversary. Yeah. fif first shows Teller and I did together. We're at the Minnesota Renaissance Festival. So right before Radio City, we went back to play the Renaissance Festival fifty years later Almost to the day And I wast, of course. becausecause I was sitting in the front row and well, not only in that first day you were there, but I would pass the hat for you. I mean, I was just such a fan and then became friends. So you invited both you and Teller, invited me to come to the show And we've all stayed in touch. So this was like, of course I'm going to go to the show. But they didn't want me to They said, well, that we don't think that's a good idea. you're not allowed to go. And I said, look, I don't want any trouble. This is their deal. I want it to be fun. I don't want I don't want to I don't want to cloud anything up here So it's okay Um, and And I said, but you know, One option is maybe I could just stay backstage and I won't come out And that was sort of not that was poo pooed as well U And so I think, I don't know if it was I might have mentioned it to Glen First I said I think I might have said, Glen, I can't be there And I didn't hear anything right away. And then I believe I talked to Glen Um He called me And said, well,, I talk to the guys, that's not going to work Well, I mean, it's not up to me and and Glenn Speaking, I think, for Pan and telleller said, well, it' y, you're right, isn't up to you. It's up to Penateeller Let's said, okay. And then Glen and I had a couple of very incredibly insightful conversations that I really appreciated Uh and they said, lookook, um, If Pen and Teller are going to come and do fifty years at the festival You're going to be there U and you're you're going to be in the front row out with us, free to come and go as you want or If you're not allowed on the site then Penn will come out and tell the audience. Exactly what happened to me that that will he will spend a good chunk of the show talking about the case against me and what happened to me The other option was if I wasn't allowed on the site that they wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't do the they wouldn't come at all and Teller had sent me a note to that regard or you just let car come. He comes and sees the show He hangs out with us backstage and frontstage. He can walk around the site If you do that then we're going to do our show And it took them several days for crying out loud. was like, to say yes And there was a little hedging there by some. You you have you do know which one I was hoping for. Yes Yes. I do. But then you know, then the festival like some of the people the show that I know were really generous and kind And when I pulled in, I think I told you this. It was in the podcast, but I picked you up You guys had you mistakenly rented, I think two or three fucking limazines. I don't know it It was like these black cars were big fucking stars cars like it was like out of Sicario, you know, going through across the Mexican border these big black cars and then I'm in my pickup truck leaving them because One, I want to make sure they can get in there because it's kind of a labyrinth. And two, I didn't want to be I wanted to have the freedom to leave If if shit It got weird. I just I wanted to be able to control if I needed to leave or not So We come in the back gate and there's a guy in a four wheeler leading us in. The cars are behind me We go down this hill into a pit a gravel pit. And there's people walking around in costume. This is where they all of the you know, the costumed people, the workers are And we're coming through that. we're moving pretty good speed And I said to Mary and I said, this is really weird. it said making me I'm really nervous. This is really strange. I can't believe I'm back here And I look at her and she's looking behind Window. And she goes, Yeahah, but look how you're fucking coming back. It's like this it's like a presidential motorcade. everybody's getting out of the way and we pull in in a circle and all these security people back up. And the door opens up and I get out first Pen gets out second. And instantly I'm greeted withiz. I can't believe you're here and I got. I got Hugs. I was surrounded by people wishing me good Um, And at one point I looked at one of the security people. I go, are you How are you going to take them down? You going down the back way around this way because If you need to give me a radio so I can hear it like And now they're going, no, we don't want you. just you're not working today. Just be with your friends. You can go wherever you want, just be with your friends And that's what I was. I got to hang out with hang out with the guys in the trailer and backstage and then Marian and I wandered around the site and nobody Nobody paid any attention to us as far as I know. Although I think online, some people later said they saw me, but whatever And that was it and we didn't get I don't know. I think you guys probably got a few a few weird texts. I got a few, but Oh well T weekos. Sorry Sorry. Yeah. I it was really good to be back. I'll never I never need to go back. The friends I have from there are It will still be my friends and I I'm haammered And by the way, Glad really didn't talk to us. He didn't No, when they when they said you couldn't be there He said Id talked to the guys, but he didn't need to Well you know, you guys, Glenn is I just had I can't I just had such delightful interactions with the really troubled stuff that he we had one conversation that was really He knew I was I was really suffering with this. Like I didn't want things to go bad I wanted to be with my friends and you know, I've worked I've worked in this business, I've worked with agents and big fucking agents before he was just as kind and generous as could be and I appreciated it at a time when it's exactly what I needed was those interactions. So I didn't feel like I was you know, interrupting this thing or getting in the way But, you know in the alternate universe where they say you can't be there. And Teller and I walk out on stage with no magic props talk about you and the Renaissance Festival for forty five minutes in front of a few thousand people. It's a pretty beautiful scenario Yes. The truth is I think you said it when we talked the next morning. There was a lot of people there that greeted me, customers even. didnid't know anything about this. Right. That's the thing that you could never, ever know the amount of people who didn't care The engine hereot They just thought you were a guy they saw there and you're really funny and they like Yeah That's their entire perception Yeah, because while you were reading every article and while you were in jail cleleaning toilets with a toothbrush N, they were like going to movies Yeah. They were like living their lives. And as far as they were concerned, there's that guy who plays the racaner. He's really funny They came up to me. I took pictures with people. They stood want to say pictures. I'm so glad to see you here And I said, to you one woman and she came up m a friend of hers and I hadn't seen him since that time. M I She took a picture with me I said You She was what happened to you? And I go, you don't know? She goes, No what? I go, Nothing Not N that have it at all. but we are out on that. we are out on that. I would like to just throw it right to the theme music there, but I do want you to say veryer clearly how people can hear more of you You can go to out of the bluepodcast. com out of the blluepodcast. com or cararheagerman. com and you have to sign an email thing so you can get stuff sent to you. There's no charge. There are, however There are paid episodes, but the one I mentioned earlier about the day I was arrested in jail, that's free. You can go you can go in there and you can it's pretty well labeled. You should be able to find it. And chat, send me a note if you'd like sure they will. And that was Pen Sunday School brought to you by Masterclass dot com sllash pen pen. Thank you, Car. you know I love you I'll be the two. Just an amazing I think people are going to learn a lot from this. and more importantly, I tell everybody I tell about your podcast Don't listen to this about injustice. listen to this to be inspired He will make you a better person That's the promise I can give people who listen who listen to you That's pretty humbling and it's coming from you That was Penn Sunday School. Chot Ch sh Nak it and playan the shower You to thank there Matt? Yes, I of foundllow people support us over on our Patreon page. If you love our show and like that R and I can go to the doctor. Check that out. C check out our patreon at page dot com slash pen. I want to thank Chris Angel's other brother Daniel smoked my eyelids and punched my cigarettte. David like Lucas. 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