Theory of Change and Future Outlook

Corgvadazzona Is that a word? In the twenty twenty six Ky Sportage Turbo hybrid, it might as well be, because it can be one road trip. It's all about turbocharged power and hybrid efficiency working together. So you get the thrill of quick acceleration and the satisfaction of fuel efficiency. Book a test drive and keep the adventure going. Kia, Mment that inspires Call eight hundred three three three four Kia for details. Always drive safely So I've been reluctant on the show too much about imagined solutions for the Israeli Palestinian conflict I don't think any of the underlying conditions for political solution are present nineteen new settlements in the occupied West Bank. More than eighty one percent of Gaza's buildings are at least partially damaged. So many other Palestinian families are living with the threat of demolition We' not. increase solutionary space And I worry about it as a form of escapism more comfortable to debate two state models or one state imaginings rather than confront the realities of what is happening right now But the other problem, the other reason I have kind of back off of these conversations The old solutions don't fit the present reality I don't see how a two state solution is still possible. gi the number and size of Jewish settlesments in the West Bank They're not going away or the insistence on a right of return for Palestinians I don't think a one state solution is plausible or likely. Jewish people in Israel and around it they want self determination and sovereignty to do the Palestinians, neither side, given their history 's going to give the other willingly that kind of power But a number of people, people I trust Hveryone to me saying I should look at the land for all plant Landfall was founded in twenty twelve by a group of Israelis and Palestinians, and it's attempting something different, something I find in some ways beautiful two state model of separation Not one state model of unification. Confederation model that centers both people's connections to the land and tries to combine The free movement of people with separated political entities In this model, you would have an Israel and a Palestine There wouldd be free movement but political separation. The borders should be open, but They say, hopefully cure There's A lot tpack about all this. I have a lot of questions about it. I would describe my own thinking here as intrigued Nakvinced But I do think it is worth considering a new political vision. evenven I think we're far from the conditions that might make one possible. I mean, if you don't have any idea of where you're going How do you get there? Rillah Hardal is a Palestinian citizen of Israel who received her doctor in political science from the University of Hanover in Germany My Pundak is an Israeli lawyer, activist, and social entrepreneur Her father, Ron Pundak, was an Israeli historian and played an important role in the ASO peace process in the nineteen nineties. They're the co directors of Land for All. and so I wanted to ask them both about the plan But also about the politics and questions and Social forces that have undermined every other plan As always, my email as a cllients show at mYimes. com Re Hardal, my Pundk. welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Thank you So I think that people listening are familiar with the two state solution concept, an Israel and a Palestine separated and side by side peopleople have heard ideas for a single state where you would have people throughout the territory, throughout the land all voting within the same political system I don't think that they tend to be as familiar with what you're offering, this Confederation model M, let me begin with you How does this differ from the two state solution. that has been pursued for so long So first of all, let me say We are offering what we call a new vision But in that new vision, it is still based on two Sovereign independent states R? Israel and Palestine twoo state solution, the classic version of it, was based on a paradigm of segregation and separation. And we are moving away from that and offering a model that is based not on a zero sum game but rather on acknowledging two very important components of the conflict Number one. Both Israelis and Palestinians have An immense psychological, social connection and sense of belonging to the entire homeland from the river to the sea That's a fact Number two, the intertwined reality on the ground. meaning that today Israel, Palestine, in a way is already shared. The intertwined reality is everywhere we look So the model says yes, sovereignty, yes, nation states, yes identity, yes, borders and There's another layer to that a shared mechanism of shared institutions that take care of things that have to be taken care of So there is a human rights court. And there are cooperation around economy And there is, you, climate challenges are dealt with together because can deal with these things separately, but also because it's a mechanism to ensure sustainable peace. That word shared. is important in your vision. And your father was one of the negotiators at Oslo. spent his life working on the two state solution paradigm And that paradigm is built on the idea of security through separation at least on the Jewish side, that if we can just Separate Everybody can live in peace or they can leave each other alone Yeah What led you to move away from that Vision and towards this idea that peace doesn't come through separation. it comes through a shared set of institutions and interests. Yeah Well I would say Two main things firstirst one was that I found myself advocating for the two state solution for many, many years. I was doing much more anti occupation work. I wasn't really interested in solutions. I kind of that separate from each other, but At a certain point and this was after my father passed away and I think that I, you know part of my reckoning process of grief You know, I've just coming to terms with the fact that I've been fighting for the two state solution, but at a certain point I started feeling that this model is crumbling beneath between my fingers. can'tb I don't believe in it anymore. The reality is telling me something else. meeeting Palestinian friends are telling me something else, Meeting the international community, I'm learning something else. living in Israel, I'm learning something else And so I'm, you, there advocating for the two state solutions and activists, but everyh, I'm hearing the two state solutions dead. It's impossible And at the same time, in Israel, this idea piece of negotiations of two state solution is becoming not relevant in the public discourse Like there's no conversation about this And what In twenty eighteen, I had my first son and we were living a couple of years in the States and coming back to Israel No one was talking about a future for my child, about security, about safety, about vision, about horizon, about hope No one was telling me what we're fighting for two state solution has become an empty shell for people to talk about something, but not take An action And by any action We've been led to october seventh by not presenting a viable vision and not organizing ourselves around that We' been we've succumbed to this managing the conflict, right? So we'll talk about the two state solution, but everyone knows it's not going to work And we find ourselves in international, very, very important forums with serious decision makers Who say two state solution We know it's never going to happen So in a way for me, I was I was taking the life of my children into my own hands. I was like, okay, that's just not good enough. We have to Reimagine two state solution that can work or a new vision that will actually be able to be pragmatic and practical work also organize and excite Palestinians and Israelis and J just say one more thing about that can transformation for me coming from a human rights background. I wanted to be a human rights lawyer to end the occupation. U And I understand that sounds a little naive today And I still think that Israelis who are doing that work are s and this is the most important work to be done But at the same time, We haven't politically seeen Palestinians as equal pololitically We can maybe save them, we can control them. there's a dynamic of that power dynamic always underneath And for me, the positionality of realizing on in my skin that until Rola and the Palestinian people are safe. and free We will never be free and liberated and safe either our security dependent on each other Rilla, I know that you previously were a supporter of a one state solution. Tell me about how you came to this idea and how your thinking evolved I came to this idea because I started realizing two things First of all, we have already a one state reality or one state construction on the ground between the Jordan and the Sa, but you know under one regime and one power which is the Israeli one and Palestinians live under daily domination and occupation and military control and I about tide Needless to say in the last two and a half years, ethnic cleansing and genocide U and annexation of their tiny small part of the land, I mean the Gaza Strip and the West Bank I'm not sure that even You, the audience, is understanding what's happening in the West Bank. People hear about You know, having checkpoints, there is military control terrorism and violence of the settlers, but The reality on the ground is way worse The immense of daily domination control of people's life in the West Bank is just immense. I don't know if there is something similar or has been in other places. under other conflicts. because we're not speaking about, you know a very direct war It's an ongoing long term daily atrocities and restrictions and humilation of people. too start from this fact and reality on the ground Be hard for us to move, especially now after what's happened in the last two and a half years, to move immediately for an equal one state reality were actually all Palestinians and all Israelis I equal in the same one state. The second point I claim from my research and observations that The majority of the Palestinians and the Israeli Jews on the ground in Israel, Palestine are nothing the post national mindset the way I thought and the way that a lot of people here think the sense of ethno national belonging and interests and national symbols and that is they are to have for each group its own political national entity is still very strong and we need to to cknowledge that and to respect that. I The last few years have been staggering in their violence You've used the word genocide here and domination and here you are also advocating for a plan that at its core would require people to treat each other with trust as equals in a shared Enerprise, it feels hard to N just imagine the plan Imagine the people who would engage in this plan So This may seem like a simple question, but I think it's an important one to try to feel Why are you not held back by the belief that this is impossible to solve I think it's u It's very hard. It's very complicated. We are facing now a very O maybe the ugliest phase of the history of both people Dubber seven We are not ignoring all of that. I'm not ignoring that I' been speaking a couple of days ago with some friends and policy experts in DC and one of them who isgyptian Egyptian American, We've been speaking about Gaza intent He brought actually an Arabic word to describe what all of us feel and felt while watching the Um The second neck bath at genocide twenty four seven on our screens the word that doesn't exist in the English language. Kahar he It's a combination of being angry and humilation of your humanity and existence and who you are and with helpless that you you cannot you don't have anything to do. and Yeah. Um That's why I'm doing what I'm doing because If there is something to save in our Souls as Palestinians and if there is something to save terms of Dreaming about Palestine even in parts of historic Palestine This is something that I'm committed to do after what happened in Gaza. Gaza is gan And we are involved with a lot of people who are involved What's going on in Gaza, the Board of peace, the executive Committee and so on. and there the many actors in the international community. the amount of was And lack of Orientation and ability to make decisions and to do things on the ground J just insane and I don't want to see that in the coming years when it comes to the whole Palestinian situation, because what is threatened now since in a very direct intensive way since october seventh is the collective political national being of the Palestinians in Palestine And I'm doing this work in order to just maybe save What is to save there If we don't offer newew arrangements, new political vision If we don't see this very bad situation as an opportunity to start I don't have any illusion. I cannot promise anybody that this solution or any other solution Similar or different is going to be implemented tomorrow or next year or I don't know when. History is not U static and You cannot know now when this opening is going to come We Palestinians were not going to give up. We are there And we insist to be there. This is our place And we are going to continue to struggle. Can I say something about the trust I think that's a very As an Israeli, I think that's an important question for for us to deal with What is the alternative Alternative right now. either continuing in the footsteps of this government, which is to destroy the Palestinian peoplehood or a fake status quo I don't know if that would be the right term, but this belief that we can just not solve this conflict And so the first thing that we need to commit ourselves to is realizing that if we're not going to solve this conflict It will solve us. is what led us. What does that mean? Because I mean, is you know better than me that Most Israelis is center of Israeli political opinion actually does not think there is no alternative. L then the alternative is the path they're on. The opposition partarty even in this election is not hugely different than Netanyahu on this that the idea, I think the idea as best I understand it is basically the alternative is There is Jewish Israeli security supremacy over the land And the Conflict, so to speak can be controlled and managed. They're not going to let their guard down the way they did before october seventh. There's going to be more settlement building. There's going to be more control. Israel controls sixty five percent of Gaza now. This is absolly true. to some people, this is not just an alternative pathway to realize quite ancient So When you're in conversation with that? Yeah. so that is all true and that we are seeing play out right now in Israel, Palestine. This is the reality, right? Question to you or to us, to us Israelis is like, has this ensured your safety and security? The answer is no If you are Messianic and you have dreams that are beyond life are about eternity, that's a different timeline. But for people who are actually concerned, with safety and security for their children and a better future in life Current Paradigm has not ensured our safety and security. until this day Right? Like it's not only october seventh. What about what's happening now with Israel re entering Lebanon What's happening with Iran? What's happening in the South? I mean, what's happening in the West? There's no place that we actually feel safe right now. And I think that that's an important Um, realization. that we have to say out loud and confront We're not safe now. This is not giiving us safety I'll give you a more concrete example place where we have seen the most Um, um commitment to segregation and separation, right? and the billion dollar wall and these mechanisms and all the IDF, you know security measures and technology, that is where all hell broke loose. That's Gaza. So when people say that big walls will ensure my safety I say, no it won't. M, I live in Jaffa And there's a lot to say about the inequality of Palestinian citizens of Israel. But the truth of the matter is that Palestinians who are living within Israel and have more rights, not equal rights at all. That is where we're not slaughtering each other. Those are the kindergarten teachers of my baby So no one will convince me that security will be given to me or insured to me by bigger, more walls and more separation. That's number one The other thing that I want to say about is history. History shows us. Also in Israel, I think that Egypt is probably the best example. Egypt after nineteen seventy three was considered Hitler. Soadat was considered Hitler and Egypt was considered the next biggest threat to Israel And then seventy nine you know, we got to seventy nine. There's a peace agreement and that today ensures my safety. Israelis go to, you know, take vacations in Sinai That's the safest border that I have as an Israeli So We have to flip the narrative based on history The last thing that I'll say about this is that when you look at other conflicts around the world, but also in Israel, Palestine before negotiations, there's No belief that this can be solved Once negotiations start, suddenly, The belief in public opinion rises A month before the Berlin Wall fell, people said it will never fall A month before the Good Friday agreement was signed, people say it will never be solved Well, guess what it was And when we need to get to that tipping point and we're doing the work on the ground, but once we get there and that moment will come Are we ready with a good, pragmatic, relevant solution. That is what we're here to do One of the things I've been curious about how both of you see on in your perspective parts of these societies is the role of the religious factions. somethingomething that many people involved in previous negotiations have said to me is they feel that what they never knew how to apppproach. was the people who were not just working off of the interests of today, but to use the term you used on a more eternal timeline And I mean, these are significant factions in both societies. I mean, right now, the Netanyahu Calition is in a state of instability and fracture because it might lose ultra orthodox support. How in this vision, do you balance people whose belief is that There is a Divine right and wrich to a certain I think Both national movements, if we consider Now for this two minutes Zionism to be a national movement and it is only You see how difficult partnership is, right? I mean, this is a good example of just emphasizing how difficult this work is Just by I mean saying Zionism is a national movement. I mean, yes, it is also. But also Zionism has developed also to be to have another component which is actually constitute the major problem in Israel, Palestine, and for the Palestinian people, which is the settler colonial aspects of Zionism. too go back to the national aspects of Zionism, I think That all of us Palestinians, Israeli Jews changed and that both societies develop to be much more conservative and religious I think there's tendency among Israelis is even secular U Liberal to use religion and to emphasize the role of religion and conservatism when it comes to imagining the future and speaking about Israel, Palestine, while on the Palestinian context Less It's more about the importance Can you defpeend that statement for me? mean, Hamas is a very religious organization? Yeah Yeah, absolutely. And it's part of an Islamic political Islamic. Right. I understand that, but movement here Maybe I can better understand what you're saying here. You're saying that there's a tendency for sesylular Israelis to overstate the role of religion as a barrier on either side But it feels like it's quite real on both sides. and the Hamas is religiously informed that much of Israeli society is quite religiously informed And, you know, to take these views sincerely They are not just based on a horse trading of interests around security and um, prosperity in the moment. They're the two questions that have that are less vulnerable to transactional solutions Absolutely. I agree with you, but I was trying to to describe the development that actually brought both of us Palestinians and Israelis to this situation We we do not in our political vision, all of these aspects and developments and We start from acknowledging not only international law and rights and you know, All of these liberal approaches and universal approaches We start from the connection of both people So Israel and Palestine as part of their religious, historical, cultural and also political identity. So we we know that it's important and that we The way we cannot avoid other lessons learned from our history and history of negotiations and peace efforts We cannot ignore also this very important component that describes our societies. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that One of the lessons learned from Oslo as you said, is to This is cannot be a liberal elite intellectual secular solution Israel and Palestine today are becoming more and more religious if anything. more and more traditional, less and less liberal, both societies. So this is a very important question For me, one of the reasons why I joined Aand for all was because I had to come to terms with my blind spot around thisact exact reality And looking within that, and I think that woulda said it so beautifully We the beginning, the beginning of the solution is emotions The very strong emotions that have also a religious connection, right to the entire homeland We all love this place. literally to death, right? We love it so much. It's making us crazy So I would say that that's a really strong part of our work. And I would even say that one of the most beautiful moments in our events in Israel um, is that when we have events Religious people come to our events And they say this is the first time we feel part of the peace camp We don't feel that you've excluded us. We feel that we can be part of this and we can support this And that's very reassuring. right now So let's talk about what this vision actually calls for talk through the dimensions of the plan and then also of course through some of the challenges or questions it opens. But the first tenant in your paper is open borders What do open borders mean in this context Ruul Yeah First of all I do want to see the day that Israel is going to define its borders because you know, we are not there now, even to speak about borders between Israel and Palestine, sound imaginary now because Israel is still in the ideology of expansion in the whole Middle East. And this is one of the problems by the way, with the Zionist ideology. But your plan does go. We are speaking about gradually opening the borders between Israel and Palestine as two states. We will have borders We want to have these borders open. in order U first of all to implement and give the people the ability to practice what we started our conversation speaking about, the connection to the entire homeland For me, the whole space is going to be Palestine. It's been Palestine and it's going to continue to be Palestine. despite the definitions of two territories and acknowledgement of the cate of Israel and the cate of Palestine. it will be. in my in my Bood and my soul So and for the Jews, they can consider also the whole entire homeland if they would like to as Israel or you know Eit Israel So opening the borders will give people the opportunity practice this sense of belonging connection. But also to reside from one place to another For example If you are An Israeli Jewish citizen. And you are practiced as a software engineer And you want to work for a company in Aabbi in the West Bank There's a tech park In Rrawabi in Birzet near Niramallah you'll be able to work there. you will apply for a work permission and if you would like to You can also take your family with you and have an apartment there It's like in any other place in the world, even here Do you live in New Yor, but you work and I don't know LA. or you was born here and This ability for people to move between the two spaces and we are speaking about a very tiny small of place, Israel Palestine. It's like New Jersey, I think So it's very natural for people to move also between the two spaces because of their circumstances, life conditions and because of their connection. I'm going tov one second just to draw something that you mentioned that I just want to have you explain, which is that in that scenario you just laid out the software engineer who wants to work outside Ramala. person even if they moved there. and this seems to me to be one way this vision differs from one state visions They would still vote for the prime minister Eactly of Israel. And similarly, somebody from Mamala who maybe moves to work near a hospital in Tel Aviv. They can live in Tel Aviv, but they would still vote for the prime Minister or leader of Palestine. They will continue having their citizenship rights in their national Palestinians vote for the Palestinian government. Um, but they can. have residency in Israel. Accordingly, all the civil rights and local rights that comes with the residency status and vice versa But the whole concept is to start with freedom of movement and freedom of residency Um This concept actually, gives us a space to think about arrangements when it comes, for example for solving the very important issue, one of the core Palestinian issues which is the right of return and the Palestinian refugees. These refugees They will get citizenship in the state of Palestine, but They will be able also to apply for residency in Israel the way the place that they were were expelled from originally in ' forty eight So I'm going to come back to right of return in a moment because I do want us to talk about it. but I want to ask a question that I think many Israeli Jews would have hearing this, which is how can you possibly have open borders and be safe. How can you have open borders and not have You know, someone from Islamic Jihad in the West Bank coming through with explosivive strapp to them and then blowing up a bus in Tel Aviv has happened many, many times is, you know, much better than me Even here in America with much more peaceful relations with Mexico and Canada The idea of open borders is politically lethal And the concerns are primarily seecurity and overwhelm So how do you answer those concerns So There's a practical answer to that, which is we're not talking about no borders question is not If there's going to be a border, it's what kind of a border there will be. in order to achieve what We are committed First and foremost, for the security of both people is why we do what we do. for the security of Israel and for the security of Palestine That's number one What we're offering here is moving gradually. Gradually with all the mechanisms needed, and we can look at places like the European Union. So it's important to keep in mind that the European Union is one good example. but there's no exact example for Israel, Palestine, right? And I want to say that because a lot of the time people get stuck and say, oh, it's not exactly the same, and it's impossible, right? You know, here's Jews and Arabs. This is the Middle East. It's a different time. And because there is no other exact example of this, then it's never going to work And that never gonna to work mentality? part of what got us to this awful situation we're in, there is no unique, perfect example. And it's good to talk about Northern Ireland as another example of power sharing and transitioning from you A zero sum game into freedom of movement, freedom of residency, I mean, decoupling that nationality from a geographic space and into sustainable peace. So there are other examples out there I have been admiring about the European Union. And what has helped me is number one the political imagination of it If you would be eighty years ago in Europe And someone would tell you that in seventy five years, you'd be able to move freely between France and Germany and your grandchildren will be able to reside in Berlin as French hipsters, you would say, there's no way lock her up That's the reality today And the reality of that came from a place of interest And that's very important to say as well. This was not that French And Germans were starting to love each other and they say, lets how can we live together happily It was after hundreds of years of bloodshed. and the realization that their shared interests actually ensure their safety seventy years, sixty years, fifty years to get to an arrangement of freedom of movement, that's okay I have fifty years to wait Peace Don't have fifty years waiting for what's going on right now to continue But how do you ensure that security at this border? When people hear open border, they hear Eaceful freedom of movement through a line that barely exists. What do you actually? So we are talking about borders for sure, right? What we're suggesting is not not to have security arrangements It's of course to have very sophisticated security arrangements. And again, I mean, I think that the European is a great way or Northern Ireland and Ireland and the UK are a great place to see how that works without without compromising on security. on the contrary. basing it on an individual question rather than a collective question. It will have to be a process, right? So we start with borders and then we start in these borders creating the ability to move freely between the two states based on your individual security I don't know what to say file rather than a collective ethnic religious question? Right now, if you're a Palestinian, you can't cross the border, although there's a lot to say about that for sure, right? with the amount of Palestinian workers entering Israel every day. and no one even you know talking about that when it comes to security because we depend on it The other thing that I'll say is that what I think is exceptionally meaningful with the landfraw's proposition is that it's tackles the motivations of the conflict Now this does not mean that we're going sign an agreement and everything will be perfect If you have that end game clear And if you have answered the collective needs of both people You take away the justification the normalization of conflict and violence I think that is the the Biggest new thing that we offer I have a shorter answer for this question, actually, Ezra let's remember how things started. if Everything started forty eight U even earlier Of course earlier, but that you know, the important point that everything started U is actually forty eight there the Palestinian Nagba first Nagba now The second necka So in this case, if we are going to have a political settlement and peace and reconciliation and the recognition and I'm speaking about, you know concepts, but we believe that it's doable Um, There will be no need to speak about This even question, how can we ensure the security of the Israeli Jews? I do want to ensure their security. But you know what? I think who is more threatened and has been threatened equally att least equally. like the Jewish Israelis, if not more in the last two and a half years, are are also there the Palestinians So we need to mutually Revision what's happened over the past, I don't know, eight decades and start from that. I don't disagree with that, but I think that creates this chicken and egg question with the plan you're offering and to say that if there is no need for Violence, there will be no violence U I mean, that's true, right? But it's somewhataologically true. Some people might say, look, this is a huge step forward. I'm willing to approach this peacefully Every day in the West Bank, radical settlers are committing tremendous acts of violence. In the Second Intifada, there was constant suicide bombing One of the histories of this region as you both know better than I do is violent spoilers making peace projects or settlement projects impossible. And so it is true that if you could get to a point where there was no more violence, then a lot of the ideas on this become much easier. I mean, it's not I'm not worried about the absence of aggressive security on the California uh, you know, Arizona border Um, but That's not But that's exactly the opposite. It's exactly the opposite. I mean We're not going to sign an agreement and open the borders. That is not the plan Absolutely to go through A long process, a long process And again, that has been done in other places with blood your conflicts So we have to let go of the fact that it's impossible because but Truth is that we have left room for spoilers. And we have experienced the fallout of previous negotiations because there has never been a commitment to a clear end game So during the O accccords, There was There was process. No point did Israel say there will be at the end of this process Palestinian sovereign, independent state. never And if you don't have that commitment to the end game Then you leave room for spoilers. Palestians are never gonna to buy that anymore ever. We've failed too many times to say, oh yeah, eventually there's going to be kind of a two state solution without doing that. And so What we are saying is that we need to exactly flip that on its head. I think that the recent moves of several states to recognize Palestine first. was a step in that direction, right? Not to say that the two state solution is the end of the process But a Palestinian state has to be the beginning of the process in order to get to a reality where we could actually make peace. But I guess the the The reason I'm pushing on this is that politics of Israel could not be farther from that Absolutely in any possible way And so to say that The only way to think about this plan or the only way to think about this approach is that there needs to be First and foremost, an ironclad commitment from let's say a super majority of Israeli Jews to go not just to a two state solution, but to a confonfederacy with shared sovereignty over Jerusalem, which is one of the tenets of the plan with a form of right of return throughout the entire land And to say that you know, the promise is that security will follow that people there and they'll say, well, look, we tried a peace process. We tried also and what we got was a second I Fada. We were We are not going to make that mistake Again So When you are trying to pitch it to the audience You need to get to agree to it whichich are the people who live near you do you say to them Things are changing in the Middle East and Israel, Palestine, in a way that they haven't in a very, very long time For the past twenty years, we have been under this false assumption that we can again not solve this conflict October seventh. is not was not a security problem political probleblem It's an outcome of not solving the conflict Do we have all the answers? Absolutely not. We have invested thirty years in thinking about the paradigm of separation for peace, which I think today is impossible to achieve and also not desirable. we learn from other conflicts. We haven't invested nearly anything in trying to elaborate a vision like this that learns from mistakes of the past and learns from other conflicts that have been solved sustainably That is what we need to do today This is not to say that security is not our number one concern, as would have said, security for both people, right? Be a lot of the time we say security, we mean security for Israeli Jews has been part of the, I would say problem with the international discourse around this I as an Israeli trust and know that we have the technical capacity in Israel to deal with this challenge. There's no doubt We have the technical capacity But the question is, where are you going Right? What is the vision? What is the endgame Because of the end game is what we had thirty years ago that hasn't been relevantly updated that doesn't tackle the core deadlocks of the two state solution that we all know refugees water Jerusalem, borders, right? setettlements. If we don't have good answers to these questions what we're doing. We will never get to a place that we can actually move forward. Tell me a bit more about the way that the vision approaches the settlements I was thinking about some conversations I had when I was us there where Pis Reu said to me, theseese lines you all jraw are ridiculous, that the idea that There is a deeper If there is any Jewish connection to the land, it is deeper to Hebram than to Tel Avif. Yeah If there's any religious grounding for why we are here It does not follow the boundaries of the sixty seven borders. And I also remember realizing just when I was driving around the West Bank These are not going away that the Israeli Jews sort of from the old peace campoo tell me, oh, maybe we can still that It's too many people. It's too big, it's too entrenched. They're building more every day. Yeah. One thing that I find very interesting in in this project, is it Yeah You can frame it different ways, but in a way that is different from, I think, the two state solutions with all of its land swaps and everything You were able much more directly to simultaneously accept presence of to Jewish people in the West Bank. inast Jerusalem and accept Palestinian right of return sort of at the same time. When I read it and I doubt this is how you all would frame it, then maybe you do. It almost feels like a trade Well, first of all, We are very careful not to make that symmet between refugees and settlers It's very important for us not to make that symmetry for all the reasons. but what I would say that you because Refugees have a right to be part of their homeland They have been u subjected to care and to exppulsion from their homes Settler is right now the settlement enterprise isn ant illegal immoral entterprise It is against international law. A lot of it is against Israeli law And it is based on a system of supremacy That's there's no question about that. And we are all in agreement with that But what we also see is that Jews have a strong sense of attachment and that's not going to change Right That has been going on forever Jews have forever lived in that piece of land, and they will probably forever will Be because that attachment is greater than anything else then you know, the sovereign It's greater than that and what we are offering around that is to approve the settlements and normalize them and say that's I mean, they're there, so whatever, they can state, notot at all To say that we understand that there needs to be a mechanism to deal with Jews who have a very strong sense of attachment to their homeland and for them to be able to live there safely, but with no No privileges, control, you know Terror to Palestinians And so I don't want to it's important for me not to make that symmetry, but it is important for me to say The land forall has this elegance to it is a holistic approach Well, when I talk about it as a trade, the way I read the plan, and again, this might be wrong. I'm reading it as a person who lives in the United States is that I was think that in terms of interests, and one of things that feels different to me about a land for all Is that there are certain interests that both societies hold very dear that have typically been excluded or pushed to the side. Yeah as too difficult or too extreme for the main negotiationsact. And the main ones I think of there are right of return, which the Israeli governments have functionally not been willing to discuss at any serious level settlements which people have not known but to with and that the more they have been built, the more unlikely their unwinding has become And the fact that people still talk about it just to me is evidence of a paradigm they've not figured out answer to. Yeah, exactly. And Jerusalem, which is another complex conversation, but those two specifically have a I guess you would describe it as as an elegance, but to me what it looks like is a bringing into the conversation of quite profound interests that have been pushed to its margins with arguably somewhat disastrous results. Yeah, you know, the right of return of the Palestinian refugees is one of their for. issues political moral Um, emotional issues of the Palestinian question and any solution that rise to avoid refferring to this issue is going to fail And we are speaking about half of the Palestinian people Fr We didn't spoke much about the aspects of recognition and historic reconciliation between the two people that are two important principles that our paradigm and political platform is based on This political vision needs Before saying more about the right of return of the Palestina people, Ne Nes actually transformative national narratives of both people Um can you say more about what that means and what those narratives would be? Yeah I think that we Palestinans will start from us Palestinians. I think it's time for all of us to acknowledge the collective history and memory of the Jewish people that is shaping their fears, insecurities and so on. It doesn't in any mean to give them any legitimacy for what's have been done for the Palestinian people in the last eighty years, but we need to understand these people And these are very deep psychological deep aspects of any conflict that we need to acknowledge. the same For the Israeli Jews, they need to also have this national narrative transformation of moving from denying Th Necaba And what' happened there and the injustices to acknowledge this is something that They did. And in order to move forward, the acknowledgement is very important and the reconciliation with our Self, histories and memories and with the others. are very important this question of how people's stories change and coexist is really important and we're spending time on because it's a hard one to address through policy plans don't know what to do with stories and identities But it's also a place where, for instance, the European Union example begins to break down. because one very, I think important dimension of the European story was an agreed upon post World War II narrative Germany was wrong Germany had lost. Germany was defeated. Germany was correctly occupied Germany was not allowed to have not going well right now But, you know, you got a fair amount of peace out of it. so we'll, you know, we'll see the the We'll see what happens with the FT, but The point I'm making about that is that one way that Europe as we now think of it was built was on you know, very bloodily agreed to description of what had happened. and that's not going to be true here. No Yeah. And I think that's actually As you said, I think that's alsoso part of the weakness of these arrangements, I think that Rwanda is also a good example of that. The weakness of this winning H history of winners. Um I think that what we are suggesting is something that is Again, like breaking away from the binary. This needs to be I work is to And this is also the origin of land for all It was a group of people. came to terms with the fact that the two state solution, as we know, its is no longer viable can't physically happen leararning from the mistakes and saying why Why? Why has this failed or in the control that we have, right?m not talking about the assessation of Rabin, I'm not talking about, you know, what is in our control to say to learn from the reasons why C creation, which I think is really the secret ingredient, right? I mean, Israelis have been trying to negotiate with Americans over Palestine for a long time that hasn't been successful It has to be co created in order for it to be acceptable Right? So another thing we learned from us though is that the conflict didn't start in nineteen sixty seven Occupation is a problem It's not the problem. It needs to go backwards. It needs to address the motivations, the narratives And so if you do not come with a narrative that addresses religion, that addresses belonging, that addresses the belonging to the entire homeland, to the refugees, the Nakba The Holocaust That's not going to work. And now in addition, we have october seventh and the genocidal war in Gaza without again doing symmetry between events. Part of this package need to be also to practice accountability for those who were involved in all of these atrocities and massacres and killing and so on. But so I want to hold on this for a minute because I think two things you both have said here in the last couple of minutes they open up questions. It's certainly in my reading of the plan and the documents are not answered. but One is this question of accountability that you brought up And if your belief is that there cannot be peaceful sharing and, you know, partnership ence some kind of accountability process, what you imagine that looking like and why you imagine players on either side would submit to it. And two, both of you brought up quite a lot of the long historical stories both sides tell, but I actually don't understand how this is able to address that, right? How does this address the completely incompatible Narratives of what happened on october seventh and after it. How does it address I can sort of understand how to dress as an Nka Right? like I can read that in the in the plan and the sort of focus on creating a space of right of return I can see that, but There's a lot that has happened. since it is not answer there from you know the peace processes to the secondifada So there's a sort of a difference between saying there's a plan for now versus a plan to reconcile this shared history And which of those are we looking at? And if you believe we're looking at the second a way to change the way Israelis see themselves a way to change how Palestinians see themselves I mean, that in some ways seems like an even harder challenge then trying to you know, imagine do mortar policies. Yeah. What is it what is the mechanism the levers that you see doing that. So one of the research groups that we are organizing is about transitional justice We are committed to do the learning places to ensure that we incorporate those lessons in this program, right in this solution And so I'm humbled to say that we have amazing Um Exts international and Israeli and Palestinians doing that work With that, I think that this solution, the fact that it does talk about the past in a way reconciles the main collective needs of both people. for freedom, for acknowledgement of their history, for self determination, for the connection, as we said, to exercise that relationship with the entire homeland, to address the issue of the Naka properly. and envision a future is better That is better than what they have. and Will always says this When we talk to Palestinians often hear is that Well, this is definitely much better than Oslo, right? Like this is better. I mean, this is much better for Palestinians than what we've been given before I do want to say a couple of words about that I don't want the Israeli Jews to love the Palestinians and vice versa. And we are not going to love each other at this moment and not in the coming years Maybe And we don't need to forget and not to forgive. But we need to ensure having another situation that we can Please. continontinue living. And the other problems maybe won't be solved in our generation but in the other generations We have to have to start implementing the political vision itself gradually and changing the reality in order to open pays for deeper transformative conversations between the two people that will come one day pick up on something you just said, which is around Gradualism there's one dimension of looking at this, which is like a plan. It's a kind of final equilibrium that would be a radical transformation of these two societies and their relationships with each other. But to go back to something we were talking about earlier You know, if you take the EU example, begins with the steel and coal community And so You know, if you imagine a world that is Six or seven years down not a world of Net andany Yahoo and a boss or Bennard The peet in a boss There's been a sort of revolution or two in leadership And it's not that who has come into power? is transformationally different but they're open to something new and there's a feeling that this is gone the fighting that it has all become destructive, that it is going nowhere Um, There's space. For whatever reason there is space But there's not space for an end to all these issues, there's a space to try something new What does gradualism look like What is the steel and coal A. community. what is The things that could begin to build the sense of trust or belief because you saw it work on a small scale. that then ladders up to larger U possibilities you know, when we met with a very, I would say important regional player in the past fewths. the first thing that they said is like, do not talk to us about a roadmap We never want to hear that word again Like if you just don't even mention it commitment is to present an end game can work becausecause we know that without that clear endgame. you just peat mistakes of the past. Okay, but you have to start something Yes. but I'm just it important for me to sayit yes, absolutely. But it's important for me to just reiterate how important that is and how we have examples on the ground that show that I would say is except for that commitment to an end game, right? Like that clarity of where this is leading us and no questions about that is issues like public health. I think that public health and economy and climate things that impact our day to day life are a great example of places where we know we can't work separately If you have COVID in Tel Aviv, you will have COVID in Ramala And so that's in my imagination of this without developing the blueprint exactly yet of the how to get there. And again, we're working on it I would say that those are the places where I would imagine this starting from economy, climate, water. Jerusalem places where it actually Do you want to say a word on what that would mean for a trusle I would add to that also security security cooperation, not under a system of control and violence I want to dig in on this a little bit because sort of that was a list of, I would say issues escalating in there scale, right? You can imagine moda sel as a community of cooperation and public health all the way up to Jerusalem and security, which are core. So I think the reason I'm asking this and the reason I'm pushing a little bit on this question is that I don't think people will believe in your end game until they see it work in miniature. Yeah. Your view as I hear it, is that people to be committed to the end game for this to even begin. But, you know, I can I can be the polling You do not have the support for that right now R So If I think you didn't have the support for Oslo before Oslo or but also didn't work Absolutely. And again, that's because no work was also done on the ground to complement it. So the question I'm having is If there is a moment of opportunity and you could implement something, I mean, you know security and trusism are both good examples I am actually I find it to be one of the more Pressing realities Oove The situation the degree of cooperation and the effectiveness of the cooperation on security. Yeah between the PA and the Israeli government has been sort of pocketed by the Israeli government as opposed to been the basis of something bigger You know, you were say so you put that on the table as something that you know, you could imagine that being a place where there could be a more transformational thing because it has also created a negative outcome where the PA is lost and eroded support and legitimacy. Now I would say that was sort of the way the Israeli government wanted it. but Walk me through one place that be it Jerusalem, security, something else where people would look at this and in your view, they would see it. and then they say Oh, maybe these landfall people are right Mbe if we share as opposed to separate, maybe if we cooperate as opposed to dominate you get an outcome that is, you know, for in this case, Jewish Israelis safer and more stable. and more Just without having to be committed to the entire vision There are a lot of examples in there in their health field, for example, but I'm not sure that I do want to cooperate with you this in this conversation on this topic because I think it's it needs to be to be in a different way. The Palestinians are not going now to you know, accept or agree for to all. partial steps on the ground until I think there is a need for something dramatic and People from both sides need to see a plan. with a timeline And again some steps here like what is happening since the last fall with Gaza people are and believe you are in these conversations. in a lot of international context People are speaking about the reconstruction of Gaza. and the human humanitarian situation Of course without doing anything s is for sure since September or October noody is speaking about the rest of the Israelis and the Palestinians and about Where are we heading this time So no, I'm not going to accept all of these failures. We start first of all from acknowledging Um in transformative acknowledgement and recognition the state of Palestine Countries and states need to start filling this recognition in actions diplomatic, political, legal, economic, and so on Okay To start with and presenting platform. For the political vision. I hope it's going to be our political vision And we are happy to to bring Um more insights and blueprints and content to the whole phases. But we know, all of us we know in I don't know twenty fifty, we will be there And people will start also saying The improvement of the conditions of their lives. I think that's number one Immediately But we cannot do it the way It has been done before thirty years For me, it creates an interesting instability and how to think about what you all have released here. And the way I'd put it is this that I take the point that you need a vision you're working towards. and I also take the point that I think you're making here, which is that it would be folly right now to think that Every sentence put down on a plan in twenty twenty six, even in a world where that plan became viable would be the final structure of the plan or would be how it would be implemented. likeike that that's requires a level of policy literalism that even I am not willing to do What you're both getting at on some level and I agree with, but is in some ways a harder question is not What kinds of answers you might imagine constructive process with peopleeople committed to ad just outcome. might entertain It's how do you get to the point where there is A room with a table Ball can begin debating the finer points of the plan Israel is at this moment, undoubtedly the stronger actor in this conflict and There is very, very little room for much that is in this vision. in Israeli politics. The coming election is going to pit Benjamin Nnanyyahu, whose I think politics are well understood against Nft Toy Bennett andir Lapede and Bennett is I think, you know, one of the leaders of that coalition. I mean, he's on he has traditionally on many of these issues been to Netanyahu's right correct And so You know, I can read the pulling there. commitment to this kind of vision that you've described needing You would need a wholesale change a wholesale change in the structure of Israeli public opinion and leadership What is your theory of what creates that change that makes this possible Well, yeah, that's kind of what we're doing, right? Like that is That's the word I I We've never said that it's easy work. And even more so I mean There are no shortcuts There are no shortcuts. When you think about Northern Ireland, for example As I said earlier, yes, a month before the Great Variety Agreement, no one believed it will ever end. But there were at least three, if not more Very intense years of working Bottom up to make people start imagining that the Good Friday agreement can and will happen with civil society, with journalists, with artists, with, I mean There there is there needs to be a whole mechanism of moving the society from where we are today. which is annihilation of the Palestinian But what moves it? I mean, the young in Israel today are to the right of older generations. Yeah. abbsolutely. That's one of the biggest probleety has moved and it is moving and it is changing, but not in the direction of this. So, no, I know there are no shortcuts, but but what You know, even on a ten year timeframe, what do you believe will change attitudes sufficiently? Yeah Somet like this becomes possible. We're not in a post war election We're not the there isn't even ceasefire in Gaza right now, people are, you know, there's no ceasefire And the war continues and people are very much still entrenched and the reality of october seventh And so I am not counting on these elections to get us Do that vision, not at all But These right now within these elections, within the political framework in Israel The conversation is So so limited. It's between really the political imagination which is becoming our reality of the reality in Gaza and the West Bank and eliminating Palestinian people and then delegitimizing Palestinian citizens of Israel. That's like the other part of that It's basically all we have within the Jewish parties There is no vision I mean, I come back to this point because I think And I know as an Israeli that young people are looking for hope and for alternative. sorry, I want to push us from a space of realism here. Young people move to the right in Israel. There are left wing politicians in Israel like, yeah, your goal on They're not popular. No, but Yail Gan is also not offering real, I mean, hope to solve this conflict and for security. It is not You cannot I don't think. and I are people lacking for vision or do they not want a vision? No, I think that we have been I think that we have been trained. trained grown and normalized this Thinking that we do not need to solve this conflict I think that october seventh is the worst wake up call that we could imagine We said that this will blow in our face. We never imagined to be so bad But this is and should be. and I believe again, that this is not the post election the post war election that we're waiting for do believe that this is the time integrate into the Israeli public conversation discourse, the fact that this conflict needs to end and that there is a solution I will say this is not to counter the reality where Israelis are not at all interested in anything right now of this such We have met in twenty twenty five fifteen thousand Israelis. That is equivalent to half a million Americans who have been looking for vision and hope and alternatives and ways out and political imagination. And we've been doing it, I would say, the majority of these with young people political imagination workshops with soft entering points, right? Not immediately would say, this is the vision. you know, vote for this vision. No, but to say, guys, wake up Your future is in your hands. The leaders are not giving us that. It has to come from us, from civil society, from artists, from journalists, from Small politicians That is something that we are very committed to doing, and we see that our movement has been growing exponentially since october seventh. People are looking Are we there yet? No. But for example, our dear friends at standing together for the largest bottom up ground Jewish Arabic. movement on the ground today in Israel, Palestine, in Israel, I should say Um They a few months ago have announced that they for their tenth anniversary and around everything that's going on, They're committed to presenting a political vision pololitical von is ours. Right And so you see that There's an emergence coming out of october seventh people looking for a new big idea because everything has been shattered and paradigms that we've been you working around crumbling And so when you ask me about like where do I find hope When I read the polls, when I see the young people voting for Benvill more and more, when I see the how saturated Israeli society today is with violence because The violence is getting from everywhere. It is by these young people who are asking me How can I join a landfra all And we've been getting these by the thousands I'm not looking for shortcuts. We are here to do that work But if we don't start now and present that alternative now We're absolutely never going to get there Agreeing with about all of that, I think we need we need a lot of pressure from outside in order to Um, to promote for this change ins inside Israel. I think It's not only the void of people and it's not only that People gotse not to speak about the Israeli Pine conflict and not to even We've been seeing how they, um and treat Palestinians in Gaza and in the West Bank. So there is something and inside of Israel as well Yeah and against us Palestinian citizens in Israel the degrees of the dehumanization of the Palestinian people And the Israeli public conversation and political conversation is just insane and Um, Not surprising because this is actually the nature of settler colonial, violent, arrogant societies But also of separ also of separation And also of separation and also of You know Um, uh propaganda over propaganda in the media and in the whole political conversation and disc it is over years M And that's why I think is a place. F. top down change in Israel and for pressure from outside. I just want to say we have we are taking the agency of Israelis and Palestinians leading a vision But we can't do it alone. We can't at this point, thinking that Israeli can ensure the safety and security of Israel or of Palestinians for sure. is wrong. There is no way we can't do this without Serious pressure without serious commitment of international actors. So this is absolutely to say that this should be a wake up call for the international community not to talk about the two state solution to end the atrocities on the ground. First and foremost And by then curing and committing a real solution I that is a good place to end. Al our final question, What are three books you wouldd recommend to the audience? And Rula, why don't we begin with your I decided to choose three books that are related to the conversation that we that we are having today. The first one is The Holocaust and then Ekke, edited by Um Good colleagues and friends, Bashir Bashir and Amos Goldberg It's very important to understand Um 's happening now. It was written before october seventh and the genocide in Gaza, but it's still very important sessential book The second is state of denials U It's set about Israel and Palestine I claim all the time that the Israelis five suffering from severe denial, collective denial and blindness And I'm trying to understand that. and I think a lot of people need want maybe to understand and this book states of denial wrritten by Stanley Cohen is very important and helpful. The last book is our again, colleague and friend Omerbertov his very recent latest book Israel, what went wrong? I'm also kind of thinking about where I'm at today. And so I was thinking of three books that are kind of one is looking to the past and learning from it And that is Hen Aga and Rob Malley's book toomorrow iss Yesterday you know, we're doing this as people on the ground who are committed to doing this bottom up work of building the movement and vision. But they've been there in the negotiations learning from the mistakes. And I think that that is a practice. we overlook and we need to really do more often learning from our mistakes. So that's the past Um Second is the palm for the wild Bilt some a genre that do you know this book? Yeah. I didn't expect it to pop up here. Yeah. It's from a different world. which is very kind of off genre for me, but I'm so grateful that I have read it. We've been in the you know, business of dystopias. for a long time As a Jew, I am committed to practice my political imagination It's part of my heritage and we've neglected that. And so this book by Becky Chambers has really allowed me to kind of sit with alternative futures and help me imagine beyond what I think is possible so important Um And the third is for me kind of book Present, which is a children's book There are never enough good recommendations for a children's book It's a book by Toa Yanson. It's the Momin series, which allows me to first of all, read a book to both my four and eight year old, which is not so easy to find something that we all enjoy also is like a profound I want to say humanist, but of course it's not only about humans But a very sensitive book that allows for room for emotions. and for tackling very serious philosophic questions and fears. Um