Mastering Paralinguistics to Convey Authority

Hey, it's friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robins podcast Is it just me or People being ruder ing more entitled or fllat out lying to you and having zero shame about it There's always going to be difficult people in your life. But it feels like there are more and more of them every single day, D't you agree? And I know I'm not alone in feeling this because I see your questions rolling in at melroobins. com and I see all your comments on YouTube and Spotify. You're tired of dealing with difficult people and you're looking for very tactical strategies How do you read people? How do you protect your energy? How do you spot a liar? How do you not get sucked into other people's drama? How do you stay in control so that you don't get baited or manipulated or played by somebody who's difficult Just this weekend, I was so frustrated with a particular person in my life I went back and relistened to an episode with heavy pumporus a former U. S. Secret Service agent who is also a member of their elite polygraph unit Which basically means she is a human lie detector who's been tasked with using science backed techniques to be absolutely sure if she was getting the truth or not. If somebody was trying to play her or they were acting straight up I rel listened to the episode that she appeared on and I was like, oh my Godd these strategies are so Good. I feel so much more powerful. I'm gonna better boundaries and be able to spot all these liars and manipulative people. And I thought, I have to share this with you I mean, based on the state of the world and how so many people are behaving right now You need to listen to this because she's going to teach you all about body language How to spot a liar Daling with manipulative people and something so fascinating called paralinguistics, which is how you can spot the truth that is hiding in someone's tone pacing and pauses Because as you're about to learn It's not what people say It's how they say it that matters. And I want you to stay to the very end. Because Evie drops this one takeaway that is one of my favorite pieces of advice that any guest is ever given on this show It is so helpful because it relates to how some of the most manipulative people in your life are the ones you're close to and you have to deal with them. every day Maazda has been named Consumer Report's safest newew car brand It starts with our approach Every Mazda comes standard with proactive safety features. So you're more aware of what's around you, more focused on the road ahead And ready before problems ever start Masta, more of what matters most to you Go to mazausA. com to learn more Consumer Reports does not endorse or promote any product. The Mel Robins podcast is proudly sponsored by Aica Insurance, our exclusive insurance partner You know when someone finishes your sentence because they already understood what you needed That's what working with Aica feels like. They don't guess They don't assume They take the time to understand what you're trying to protect and why it matters. Most companies talk, talk, talk about putting customers first. Aika really does it. You feel it. in the way they listen, the way they follow through, the way they treat you As a customer owned company, Amica puts your needs first Visit amika. com and get a quote today Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast I am so excited that you're here. It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you And if you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this with you, I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robins Podcast family Today Holy cow, are you listening to an extraordinary episode because you're going to learn psychological tricks to read anyone and spot a liar. And there's nobody better to teach you than Evy pomporus She's a former U. S. Secret Service special agent sererving in the elite polygraph unit trained to detect deception and to read behavior Now that experience made her one of the most fascinating experts in the world on human behavior, communication, and how to stay calm and in control under pressure and around manipulative people Evie has protected and worked alongside five former U. S. presidents during high stakes assignments She's a trained interrogator and behavioral specialist who has spent her career studying what people do they say and what they reveal when the pressure is on and the stakes are high She is the bestselling author of beccoming Bulllletproof, and I am so excited for you to experience this life changing conversation So let's just jump right in at the beginning. Evy Welcome to the Mel Robins podcast. Thank you, Mel. I have been admiring you from afar and online like a stalker that the Secret Service would take out. I'm so glad to be sitting here with you. I'm very humbled, very humbled. Thank you for saying that. Here's where I w to start. Could you tell the person that is listening to us right now How does learning The skills that you're going to talk about, like knowing when somebody's lying to you or displaying confidence How does that change your life All these things, confidence, reading people, that in itself, it makes you steady, It makes you grounded So I think that that's where a lot of this is going to lead people to A lot of the stuff I share are things that were taught to me by very exceptional, people that help me on my path and still help me to this day You have a remarkable career. So when you were a little girl, Re you like, I want to be in the seecret service? No, no. L I was like, I get pulled over by cops and'm like Who's this Bozo? literally in my head. I may have even verbalized it. Nope, didn't know anything about law enforcement My family was not in it at all. I know sometimes people have a plan. I never had a plan. How did you even get into this career So they was on the subway. I'm going downtown Manhattan to a job that I got right out of college. It was u undernderwriting for AIG. I don't know if they're still out there if you are I'm sorry And not for me. I was in a cubicle sitting there and I'm thinking like, I can't I can't do this. And so the subway doors open literally, maybe I'm on that job several weeks, two months subway doors open, cops hanging out his beer belly because back then they had beer bellies. I see the guy I'm like I can do that. Literally And so I go home that night to and to recruit I call my hello You guys hiring? No clue what I was doing. Zero And I just went with it. saw one thing I've never been afraid to just go and figure it out That's how my journey started. and from there I was like, oh, Mac maybe I can do FBI, DEA, CIA, I actually apply to all of them Secret Service was the one who Hired me first. What I find fascinating about that story is that everybody who doesn't feel like they're in the right place in their life thinks that you're supposed to know what you want. And oftentimes I find it's just knowing what you don't want and you knew I don't want to be in that cubicle. And I love the metaphor of the doors opening because I think your life can change. L that. Oh my Godd. I didn't even think of that with the doors opening Yeah and you walks through it I would imagine that what you would see over and over and over again bothoth in your training for the Secret Service and as you were an agent working on some of these elite units in the Secret Service, that things do change in an instant. which is why it is so important to take everything that you're about to teach us today to heart What are some of the big takeaways that you have that are important when it comes to the way that a U. S. president or somebody at that level of success and power Thanks and acts. So I was very lucky because I was around three current sitting presidents. I started when Clinton was actually still president But then you're also around the former presidents So you get like kind of dished out to help with those. And then also foreign heads of state. So when foreign heads of state come to the U.S, you're around them, but you don't realize it, but you become what you're around And so as I was around them, Like you would watch the way they would move the way they would deal with problems, the way they would deal with people I think probably the most remarkable thing I would see is you be with the president, whichever one it would be and we'd be literally in the White House and they have screens in different areas and You'd be standing there and he'd be right there and there'd be a screen up and of the news and like they'd be just be destroying him. He's an idiot. He's this, he's that, right? Whichever channel it was depending on whatever president was because it changed He'd be right there Most of us would be like, oh my God, I can't believe they're saying this about me. I can't get out of bed And that could not fly. So I really learned resilience and I learned not to take things personally. I think that's probably the best gift People today and a lot of times when people approach me, they'll tell me stories, like they really go through it. It's not to invalidate what they say. But everything can't penetrate your soul. L it just can't You know, and I learned to understand what mental armor is and to understand what you can and can't allow in. So resilience is key. I never saw U. S. president like, Lose it. down, get into the fetal position, none of it. like they always held their their grace And so the second thing I learned is to lose well Like haveal class when you're losing Have class. Evie, I wantan to stop you right there and make sure that the person listening really gets the takeaway because I love what you're teaching us So number one, you said everything canan't penetrate your soul. that you get to decide what you allow in and what you don't And I can see that mental armor, right? Mental armor going up and really kind of protecting your emotions is a way that you put up this force field And you don't let the outside in. It's almost as if you're teaching us the importance of being your own secret service agent. Yes. where you observe but you don't let it penetrate you. I freaking love that. That makes you more emotionally resilient Second thing that you have taught us by being around all of these world leaders and seeing what you've seen Learning to lose. with Grace that when you don't let your emotions get the best of you When you have some class When you are able to make a bad decision and not just beat yourself up or you're able to lose because you are going to lose in life. Yes. But you have grace about it. It's a way for you to build strength emotionally. where you don't just like have everything destroy you. And I love these lessons. And so I just wanted to make sure that The person listening or watching us got them. And I've got a follow up question What else did you learn from the world leaders that you were protecting while you were in the seecret Service in those big and small moments Witnessing their lives professionally and personally every day. I also learned less is more Listen Pay attention. The other thing I also learned is ask for help. L the president is not expected to know everything And I think we think I have to know everything because if I don't know everything, then I'm not smart, I lack confidence. I'm, you know, people see through me, yada, yada. And what I learned is they're very good at delegating I don't know everything But you are the seecretary of defefense. So you tell me how many men I need and you know, weapons we should be sending. You're the seecretary of Treasury, then you advise me on the currency inflation and all that. So I learned that I didn't have to know everything. But I learned that you have to be a good manager and delegate and ask for help. like it's not a weakness basased on the way that you're describing all these stories and the way that I personally Just imagine what life as a secret service agent must be like. And I'm sure as you're listening to Evy, you're also like kind of conjuring up these images. It sounds extraordinarily stressful How do you manage your stress? Because I would imagine that you're kind of in a constant state of stress when you're in this kind of high pressure job care so much put yourself in these situations, but you also make peace like there's an understanding that something could go wrong today, something could happen Anytime you got into the follow up, which is the vehicle that was behind the president's limo and you would armor up and you would have your weapons I think those were very vulnerable situations where somebody could attack the mortar cate. So the motorcade whenever it was in movement That was like where it's the most vulnerable. Soim anytime you're moving, you're the most vulnerable. So I think those points were kind of like you have those moments where. you're like, all right Everything's okay And I mean And whenever something was wheels up, meaning your protectee was up in the air you were kind of like, okay He didn't die on my watch because there was always that psychological thing that I don't want to mess up. I don't wantan to make the wrong mistake. I don't want to make the wrong call than have somebody else's life on my Did you have any techniques that you used? You're sitting in the follow car, you're armored up, you got your weapons in your hands. you're like, this is my watch. Don't let anything happen to let anything happen to let. Be I would imagine you would just be on high alert the entire time ready to go How the hell did you keep yourself common centered when you're in that situation 'use I'm in a truck with dudes who make terrible jokes. Like they just make the dumbest stup jokes like, hey, papaapola is, likeike you can't even say my last name. I'll make his pomurse. Yeah, whatever You know, we would laugh. You had to laugh. Everything can't be so heavy. If it's heavy, like you're just not going to make it. So I would sit and I would listen to them and if I tried say something think, shhut up, papapolas, makeake sure like we don't get shot at or whatever so I was around people who carried themselves well And so I carry myself well. I learned from that. They're steady, I'm steady. It's humor and lightness to create the calm and ground, at the same time, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking. And then there were times where you couldn't joke around where you were in a movement or something and you really just had to be pres And I think maybe that job and certain intense activities we do when you're fully present You don't have time note for your mind to wander Sometimes afterward, you're like, o man, that was heavy But in that moment, like you find your ways Also Mel, they've put you in really bad situations and training. Like they don't just like put you out in the world Hey, let's see how she's going to do. They really try to stress you out in training repeatedly to see how you're going to react. And even then, even then You don't know how somebody's going to perform in a real life situation. there's times like the person you would expect to just fly through something, completely falls apart and then someone else who you think like, oh, she's gonna be a mess. hold her ground. So You don't know what people are made of until they're truly tested I think that's true Every life and everywhere. Everywhere. I would love to learn more about how you were trained to be a human lie detector You served on this elite polygraph unit for the Secret Service And you went through training to truly understand whether or not somebody is lying to pick up on body language, behavioral clues Can you tell us a little bit about the training and what you learned in terms of detecting whether or not people are lying? Yes. Well, I didn't want to do it because in the service, there was only like thirty, they call them examiners. And it was a massive load because they went to you when They had really hard cases. so the responsibility was heavy. And so not only are you doing a polygraph and interviewing, then they're all watching through the class. and you're thinking, man, what if I don't get anything? what if I don't deliver? So I was like, nope, nope, nope, don't want it And I truly I thought, you know, nobody would talk to me. I thought I would not be good at it. U And I remember like there's a I think there was called a bid where it's like positions open, put in your name and it was open for two weeks And I waited until like fifteen or thirty minutes before it close on a Friday, like four forty five PM before I put my name in. And at for sure I was like, I'm never getting this. And when I got it, I remember having like a squeeze me, like a me. because there were military Gu with military experience more senior people who put in and they didn't get it. And so I was really surprised when I got it So when you go through that, The selection process then they send you to it's called a Department of Defense Polygraph Institute. It's a military facility actually It's a Fort Jackson. I know they change the name now. they call it Maca But you're there and you go through schooling. biology psychology, like graduate level courses and you'll do biology in a week and a half and you have to take a midtermerm final. It was intense. I remember first when I first went, I thought You know, they're like, here, read this textbook in biology and then next week you have a test on it. I was like These dudes are lying. It's gonna to be open book for sure. There's no way they expect me to memorize this textbook And then sure shit. I go in the next week and I'm like, this is not open book And they're like, No, what did you think you were doing here So that part was hard. We had pharmacists coming in to teach us, which I thought was really cool because when people, especially when people are under the influence of drugs which a lot of the people I would have to interview would be they were not always of, you know, sound, you know, mind and body because of the element of like crime and whatnot. So I had to learn what drugs did what things to people And so I became like this expert in pharmaceutical drugs. that was pretty amazing. And then they teach you how to I don't want to say confront but how to deal with lies how to confront someone, how to deal with people who disrespect you in the room And we also did practice, a lot of practice. then the service also wanted me They encouraged me to get my masters in psychology, forensic psychology as well So I think all those things together help me understand in human behavior So before we get into the strategies and tactics, can you explain why does body language matter when it comes to whether or not somebody is lying to you. It does and it doesn't. The research goes back and forth. A lot of researchers will be like body languagage is BS when it comes to detecting deception It's true and it's not true Here's what I know. People give off cues, okay, right? So I'm hanging out with you Like we met before, I'm paying attention to Mel, how she walks, how she hugs me like you hugged me You're b so I get like a baseline on you. Right? I start to in the few minutes, I get to know Mel, I get her baseline. And what are you looking for when you're assessing a baseline? Becauseuse anybody could use this. You could use this on a first date. you could use this in Everywhere. Okay, great. So let's start with a scenario where you're walking in And you're about to meet somebody and I want to just get a baseline. What are the data points I'm kind of looking for if I want to size somebody up? Okay. I'm not sizing you up But I'm gonna to use Mel because Mel Mel Mel we're using Mel. So when I walk in Mel immediately you come over, you're open right? You weren't holding anything in your arms. You didn't have your arms crossed. you were very open and welcoming. So immediately, you see me. You didn't even, you know what else you didn't do? You didn't try to be busy in a corner somewhere and let your peers come over to greet me first. Like Emily met me at the elevators, but that was it. As soon as I walked in actually You came right away. Evy So it's not like your team started handling me. So to me right away, I'm like, she's very comfortable, She's very confident. She's very warm and welcoming media Im like I like her. So. But you feel people. Do you not Do not feel people's vibration to like the essence of what they give off? I think that's one hundred percent right. And what's interesting about you reflecting back on just that literally ten seconds was that Today, I'm exhausted. I mean, we've been hosting my parents. We've got all kinds of stuff going on. I'm more tired than normal. I was up late talking to my daughter in Los Angeles who's going through like a really rough thing right now. And so I I'm happy to he that I just instinctually walked over to you and that the experience for you was that I was open, I was warm because I know that's who I am, but I didn't think about how I would greet you And so it's interesting to hear how many data points you had in that short interaction And also, it is true I think we walk in and you feel the energy of someone. And if it's warm and inviting, you're immediately at ease. But if somebody is a little stiff or crossed arms or formal or tense then you start to go, oh my God, something's wrong with this me. You know, like I think we reflect it back self What's going What's wrong with me? Yes, Right. So what should we do instead I think quiet And just so here, you can absorb people And I'm not talking about empathy where you take everybody's stuff on and then you feel like garage l. That's not what I'm talking about. But when I say absorb, I mean, feel people's energy. peopleeople give stuff off. It's a real thing, it's a legit thing feel it. Number one, the two is b language. So your body language, you're open. yourour arms were open, they were out, they weren't in your pockets, were Body language communicated what your words communicated. They were in harmony. So what you said to me, Evie, I'm so happy you're here. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. That mirrored what your body did. So there was so right in that moment, I'm like, it's all genuine It's not a formality. I'm not another guest like, hey, okay, you know I get her in there and you immediately stepped forward where maybe youre you're Your team could have taken me, brought me in here and you could have made your interest. Evy Hi. Ii'm Mal. how are you? Some people do that. Right. You did none of that. So when somebody gives you either weird energy or they are kind of open, but body language is off and you're reading something's off Pay attention to it. First, don't make it about you. Okay, becausecause that's when we're like, they don't like me, they don't this, they don't that. And that's when you start going down that rabbit hole. Yes. And then that's like It's good to be self reflective, but not so self focused becausecause then we start to make everything about us And sometimes, most of the time, nothing to do with us Allow people to be and look at them, listen to them. How are you today You can ask like simple questions, tellell me about your morning. How's everything going M? And then people can reveal slowly, you know what? I really had a tough morning or, oh, this is going on. I was up late. And then now you know what's going on with that person. So we want to see if people are off harmony, meaning what you're saying and what you're showing me with your body, and then also what I feel from you is not in harmony, I just have to pay attention And we don't call people out ever Like I mean, as in that's a rule. Don't call somebody else. Like, hey, you see, you know, I just want to be careful because sometimes we think like I know all this body language stuff, right? Right? And I'm going to call everybody Adam Blake. And I know when you say this or when you look away, you just looked away and that must mean it's like Those cues are there for you to gather information, not for you to kind of reflect back to someone and be like, let me show you how much I'm paying attention to you and how smart I am. So despite me having this background I never tell people what I see. I told you because you asked me But I don't tell people, you want to make people feel uncomfortable? Tell them. You want to make people feel like you're analyzing them? Tell them. You want to make people feel that you think you're better than them? Tell them We don't need to do that. It's for you. to understand the people around you and who you're dealing with so you can make smarter decisions with people. That's what this is for Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. what I'm gathering so far, is that there is all this power in settling yourself and observing. And in letting people show you and not reacting. And you know, you said something really important. You're meeting somebody for the first time. You're in a situation where you're on a date or you're meeting your significant o's parents for the first time, or you're going on an interview or whatever. you're pitching a client, interviewing a babysitter baseline and just giving yourself permission to observe to get data and not read anything weird as if it has to do with you is a power move And I think a big mistake a lot of us make is that when somebody else is off, we let it make us get off. And what you're saying is absolutely not just observe keepe being in the mode, pretend you're like it's almost like ' I think about a secret service agent and I think about dark suit sunglasses in the corner seen maybe definitely not hurt. And so there's a cool confidence comes from doing this in your life Are there any cues though that for you over the years became kind of a telltale? Like I had always heard, for example, that people look away, they're lying to you, which of course made me go, wait a minute. I have ADHD. A lot of times, I will look away, gather my thoughts, come back. I also think it can be really disarming for people if you're staring right at them like a prosecutor or an attorney on you know, that's cross examining somebody. but are there Tellale signs with the eyes. So this s is like such BS, the whole eye thing. It's like I know like it's a marketing thing. Think of this way, like how can everybody do the same exact thing with their eyes. Like if we're preaching diversity and we're all so different and we're all so unique then how on earth like is everybody going to behave the same way. So here's the thing with eye contact How a person does eye contact depends on that person. I could have grown up shy. I could have grown up being told I was stupid. I could have been, you know have grown up being hit a lot. So how I'm going to look at someone is going to to be kind of a marker of everything I've experienced in my life That's why that doesn't make sense I could have like ADHD or autism. I could have there could be so many reasons. so The thing with eye contact is There's two parts. One part is when you're looking at people, let people be you know, sometimes you ever have a serious conversation maybe with your kids and you're trying to talk to them and they're doing they're doing this on you. And you're like, look at me when I talk to you You want to try to refrain from doing that because that's just them releasing stress, releasing energy. You're also getting a really good baseline on what they do when they're stressed out Oh Yes. Now when you want to teach them, hey, when you talk to people, I want you to have good eye contact because it conveys Tust it conveys authority. That's different. So we're talking two different lanes. One lane is reading people Just let people be, donon't correct them, let them go where they're going go. They'll show you. So before you ask me a question before we started What did you ask me, Mel? you asked me, what am I excited about, right? Yeah. And I had nothing. And but I broke eye contact with you and I looked down because you know what I was doing? I was searching my mental Rolodex. And I'm like, do I But I had to break eye contact to do that's why I could really go into my head I'm not about to lie to you. That's just what I do Mm. So that's reading people, right eye contact when it comes to you Right now I'm your guest. So even though I would presume that maybe Iye contact hard for you, but you're like, Evy's my guest. I wanted to know, I'm here and I'm present. so I'm going to do everything I can. keep eye contact because it shows I value her. It shows I'm here that I'm present. That's separate And so I contact for you as an individual, like if you're going out there for an interview or a meeting and you're really trying to build trust Iy contact hands down builds trust. It's just we're wired that way. If you're looking at me, it means that I can trust you Right? So those are two things. Reading people, we leave them alone, but we pay attention to what they do. So now you know every time I ask Ebie a question where she has to think about something, It's likely she's going to do what break eye contact because she's searching her mental Rolodex. That's just what She does. Yep But when it comes to how I show up I'm going to be here, I'm going to be present. I'm going to look at you I'm going to show you Mel you matter to me, Mel you can trust me because I'm going to look at you And it's also a great way to show respect to people. Hevy I am learning so much from you This feels like a great time to take a break so that we can hear a short word from our sponsors, but don't you dare go anywhere because Evie is gonna teach you how to read people and then where we're going next is really deep. And you don't want to miss this. Stay with us You know, you might think that you're a bad sleeper But here's what I want you to know It's not you. It's all the tiny disruptions that you've just gotten used to, the shifting, the tossing, the turning. And when you have tiny disruptions, your brain never fully shuts off Well, that's where a mattress ferm can help you Mattress Firm knows there are very common sleep problems that keep you up at night, and Mattress Firms's sleep experts will match you with a bed for deeper rest, like the tempurpedic addapt. 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That human connection is what makes United Healthcare different. They make benefits, costs, and care options easier to understand, while helping you connect to doctors, clinics, and specialists in your community. Learn more at uhc d. com slash care Welcome back. It's your friend Mel, and you and I are here today with Secret Service agent Evie Pomporis. We are talking about how you can read people, detect lies, and tap into your power. So, Evy On the topic of reading someone What are the list of things that you're assessing? It's such a hard thing to answer. So look, there's body language, right Overall, just look at what they're doing with their body U Simple things even Even how when they're talking to you, are they frontally aligned? So that we're frontally aligned right now. M we're like squared off against each other.. Frontally aligned, shoulder to shoulder That's a good way when you talk to someone to have that. You don't want to talk to people like this this or like that or our phone We don't want any of that. And are you listening? She literally pointed her body away from me. So it's like talking at somebody on a diagonal. She then twisted and pointed her shoulders in the other corner, which basically signals, I'm either not interested or I'm nervous, or I'm thinking about something else, right? It's just when it matters to you, when those conversations matter You really want to be deliberate with your body language. You want to show with your body people what you're saying, that those things need to be in harmony. And for me, I really don't care what people say. I look at what they do. And so that's the other follow up. That's actions. that's separate. But with the body You want to have If if you're reading people, you just want to look at what they do with their body. You get their baseline. You can get somebody's baseline in just a couple of minutes. Right You can see, do they like to have their arms crossed If I could stand all day long with my arms crossed, I would. That's like my I'm comfortable. but I don't do it because psychologically understand it gives off the wrong energy or viibbe. Yeah. And as you're talking, I just want what's interesting is that you have this ability To both go, Okaykay, as I'm observing someone else, these are the things I look for to get a baseline and assess kind of person this is? what is the energy? What is their emotion Is this somebody whose energy is trustworthy? Is it not? Are they sketchy? Like what's going on with that person? And the same exact things. that would signal I don't know if I can trust this person They're doing the same to you. Yes. and also are the same things that you should not be doing if you want to display confidence Yes. So it's like almost sort of common sense. Like if somebody's not looking you in the eye or their body is pointed toward the door as you're trying to have a serious conversation. That's called a fleeing position, by the way. That's called a leing position So when you're speaking to someone and they're leaning. So right now the door' here to my to my left. Yeah. So we're doing the interview Mel and I'm like this the whole time and I'm just like sitting at the edge like this. Hell you know. I'm like everybody doesn't want to be here. That's called it's called a fleeing position. When I would interview pect a lot of them would sit in the fleeing position because they just wanted to leave. L their body literally was showing me I don't want to be here. That's fleeing position. Well, if you've ever talked to a kid and they're in trouble And you're sitting at the island in the kitchen. Fleeing position. Fleing position. Absolutely. So it's kind of common sense almost, that the things that you do when you're not interested or when you're lying or when you're like done with a conversation, somebody that's not that interested in you or might be covering something up is probably doing to you. They are doing. And I think what you said is important because everyone's so fixated on them that and how are people treating me and what are they doing to me and And they don't we don't pause to think like, ye hello You're the other half of the equation. Did you pause to think how you're presenting yourself because it's a reaction. And you have to think softly, what am I doing And what are they seeing How I showing up for this person We sometimes become a bit more very ego centric. We think like We're the sun and then everybody revolves around us and pause and think like how are you showing up? How are you speaking? Are you present? Are you looking at them? Are you doing these things? And even if you are and they're not reciprocating what you Think They should do Leave people alone People be Why becausecause if I W to have an authentic conversation with you, Mal. I'm going to let you do M so that I can really see who you really are So it's the theory almost that if you center yourself and you're place of people where You show up aligned with your best intentions And you're observing, and you're creating this space for someone else to be and operate, how they're going to be and operate in that moment People's behavior reveals the truth You don't have to work so hard when you just people show you. Remember once when I first got into this business, I left the US. Secret Service and I went to meet with somebody from a management company. I was going get a I was looking at managers. And I took my husband, who is another You know interrogator and a government, you know person like myself. When we I't come with me and we're not lay. We sit down. And within like three seconds, he and I instinctually knew I like this dude, good K ofess that we're in this room. He has no he's in this room because somebody asked him to meet with us and he did it as a favor. So we ended that interview really quickly because I knew right away, I'm like, this guy could care he's not even remotely interested presenting me At that moment, I didn't make it about me, my feelings didn't get hurt. He called it in it was a favor called in by somebody who knew me. I thought he wanted to meet me. He clearly showed me he didn't I end a, you know, conversation sooner rather than later and I leave. and I don't waste my time trying to make the relationship work. trying to follow up with an email. He showed me He also showed me He's not gonna work hard for me. He showed me that. And'm like, if you're this excited about me now, Forget about it later. Let's say even he's like, fine, I'll do your it was my entertainment attorney at the time. I will do your entertainment attorney a favor and I'll take on as the client. No, I don't want you because you just showed me what it's going to be like working with you. This is brilliant because we are all in the mode of chasing that I got to prove to you that I'm worthy of your time. No confidence and being able to get a baseline is observing whether or not somebody else is worth your time whether or not they're displaying interest I want to go to the situation where you may be administering a polygraph Y job is to make sure Well, I don't mean, your job is to kind of the truth. As somebody's sitting there and you're going through a polygraph exam, you've got colleagues that are watching you You have the steely confidence where you're administering the test Are there specific things that people do with their eyes though that Do indicate that Their words might not match the truth. So like signaling that happens. We'll do an example. Okay So I'm sitting here, I'm interviewing you, Mel, right? So I'm like, Hi, Mel, you know, I'm Evy, good to meet you. One of the things I might do is like, Melt, where you from? Where were you born? What's your date of birth? Okay. What's your address? Yep So you answer these questions. So As you're answering these, you're looking at me, you're nodding your head up and down I got Mld's baseline So Mel, tell me tell me about What happened on the night of march fifteenth, nineteen ninety eight Now I watch what Mel does Now you're likely going to shift a little bit because I just asked you to do what now reccall something from the past. Right. So in that moment, I'm going to watch what does Mel do when she's accessing her memory That's one So I'm collecting information. So I've got who Mel is the beginning part when she's not threatened N name, date birth, blah blah blah Right? unless you're lying, of course, which happens then it's like, I'm getting you to access a memory Th I might ask you, how do you feel about being here today Are you doing all right Is there something I can get you? so then I'm going to get a baseline on how Melt reacts or where you show me when you're emotional, You might start crying, you might be angry, you might Pustration Mel tell me what you know about this case Mel tell me what you think happened I'll tell you what's sitting here right now, I feel like I'm in an investigation and I'm about to get my ass thrown in jail. I like you have a st have you always been this scary in this confidence? I mean, you like I have like death stare with your ey becauseuse you were just like, I got my paper. is amazing to be in the presence of somebody who is emotionally because it makes me nervous about the fact that I might not be? That's good What do you mean that's good? That's good though, to some degree, right? You want to be steady enough to hereere's the thing. We want to be warm towards people, right? You want warmth But you also want people to like You want to keep people on point from time to time because when we don't, that's when we get taken advantage of, we get betrayed, we get rolled. It's it's like a It's a dance Yeah, do I want people from time to time to be like, oh? I don't I don't want to cross Ev. I don't want to mess with Evy. I don't want to harm Evy because you want to give that off because that's also way to let people know like I'm not that person That's a good thing. So it's finding a way to be boow How do you do that if you're somebody who has spent a lifetime feeling insecure because I agree, you don't want people to take advantage of you. You don't want to get played You don't want to get scammed And it happens in small and big ways to people every single day So How do you, if you've always been insecure or you've been taken advantage of, how do you start to build this I think first, there's no way to not ever be insecure and maybe get rid of that word. Okay maybe think of like People you're not going you're not going to get it every time, even myself. There's days where I'm like, M, I should have seen it or I give that person a chance But then I rectify my behavior. I think where people get kind of screwed a bit is when they don't You see it. You don't course correct. That's something else. So you have to be okay with messing up. You have to be okay when people pull the wool over your eyes. You have to be okay with that You have to be in like up. he won, I lost. It happened. lesson learned I think that's also strength S as lesson learned, what you're saying is lesson applied Yes, but I also have to like not be so hard on myself Why is not being hard on yourself a good thing when it comes to making sure that you become stronger and braver in the future. Because I'm beating myself up. And I'm giving myself more anxiety. I'm making myself more into care. And then I'm also telling myself you dummy That's what I'm saying to me. You're dummy You should have known better That's not good. And the whole like I should have this, I should have that. and my husband's very good with that. He's got this rule like noobbody ever says I should have. He's like in that moment, you make the best decision you can the information you have. And I think that's having faith and trust in yourself So instead of beating yourself up, you just remind yourself, I made the best decision I could Yeah the information and the situation I had yes, and if you mess up, which we all do being like, I messed up, I will do better, but then do better But this, I don't think it's it's good. Like it also reminds me in training. When you when you messed up in training Like like sometimes they'd give us like we do these shooting scenarios, which were really stressful. We would they would create these like seecret Svice compounds had like, you know, we had cities that we called like tiny town where we do attacks, simulated attacks or out in the open where we do these attacks and they were very stressful and they were designed to be very realistic. Everyone's there, everybody's watching, everybody's moves. And when you get attacked, depending on the position, you have to memorize Who goes where, under what circumstances, depending where the line of fire is coming from and what weapons to use and where the cantor assault team is coming from and where the shift is there's so many elements You're being attacked and then at the same time, You have to know like your choreography And you would mess up So in training They call you out Be like, hey, you were supposed to do this, you did this. It's wrong. This guy's dead now because of you Don't do it again and they move on Nobody has time. to sit to feel b back. Move on So I'm not it's like learn, feel it. maybe you go I go back home at night and I'm like, man, I' I messed up on that like I could have died if this was a real life scenario If you continue to dwell and beat yourself up You actually won't move on and do better. No. You're going to make it worse the next time You make yourself insecure. How messed up is that like to live in that place You know what I'm laughing about is that we sit here and beat ourselves up over like forgetting to get the milk or the butter on the list at the grocery store. and you're sitting here D on Oh I screwed up, the guy could have died. Okay, let's move on You are so centered and steely and just Grounded. It's amazing. and I want to dig more into confidence when we return. But let's hear a short word from our amazing sponsors. and Ebbie and I will be waiting for you after short breaks to stay with us You know those times where your cat or your dog is being all kooky and stubborn? Let them. ' that's when they're at their lovable best To be their best crazy selves pets need the right nutrition the kind they can get from a canot pet food. The people at acana are as stubborn as the pets they feed. They never compromise. They never take shortcuts, they never accept second best. 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New Azo vaginal probiotic mini chews have a probiotic blend made just for women that help keep a healthy bacterial balance which keeps yeast and odor in check And they're super easy to take and delicious which makes adding Azo vaginal probiotic mini chews to your routine kind of a no brainer. Visit azoroducts. com for product details, usage instructions and safety information. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robins. and we are here today with Evie Pomoris, who is a secret serervice agent who has served under the administration's of three sitting presidents And she is trained as a human lie detector So heavy One of the things that you have been trained in when it comes to lie detection as you're interrogating somebody, are there Vverbal cues that people give you that signal, they don't know what the hell they're talking about or they're covering something up for me. There are verbal indicators. There were some things people would do This sounds terrible, but it's true And there's no research to prove this. We just it's just something we see. like any time somebody showed up with like a Bible in their hand for an interview for an interview? Oh yeah. So if you' for an interview, this might be. Well like here we go. your're eye rolling. The divine prop. we call this. So anytime somebody would we'd see someone do that. R away is like that guy's gonna to fail for sure Or if like in the interview you'd hear like, I swear to God as God is my witness, my grandmother's grave, language like that It always it was like, all right, this person did it. Like those were little clues. There's no science behind it, research, but Like these were like things that we knew over time. So you wouldd hear things like that because it's kind of like The truth is typically simple. You don't need to swear to God or bring your Bible in to tell me the truth. Like you don't need to sell it to me If you didn't do it You didn't do it. I understand you're going to be nervous But if I say to you Mel, did you have Don us this morning for breakfast And you're like, Evy, I swear to God, I swear to God, I didn't do it. I swear on my mother's grave, I didn't do it I'm kind of like, I just asked you if you're having donoughuts. those types of reactions with people, you pay attention or if you ask your kids a question, hey, what's one of your kid's names are we allowed to say? Of course. Oakley. Oaky. Oakley, did you do your homework Whi? Homer Stalling tactic, right? You know it, intuitively. So that's a stalling tactic We do that to buy time to think about what I want to say. So those are good verbal indicators for You know, why is this person stalling?? Sometimes when people put like possessiveds like instead of saying like, the car versus my car or my car versus the car. So if I hear my car I like if somebody says my car, that means that person likes that car. If they say the car, like they don't really like the car So those are little things that people will do. So there are indicators in language to to listen to And then also when you ask somebody a direct question, This is the biggest thing. Did they actually answer your question I think a lot of people don't No, they move on Or they like, you know, I didn't say that or they They come at you. I'm trying to think of an example. It drives me I need to startop polygraphing people for you malc. Yes, But it drives me crazy when you're asking somebody something. And then they change the subject O they talk they they like say, well, I never had time. And I'm like, I didn't ask you about the time I asked you if you know what you're doing And so there is like a disconnect between the question I asked and the answer being irrelevant to the topic of the question. But that's there you go though. You know, but you just got intel Why aren't they answering you? Something's wrong They messed up, they didn't do it. They forgot That's info All of it. And see, I think that for me I feel like the harder thing to try to detect in people is the omission that The overt lying to me feels like something that would be easier to start to notice when you do what you're teaching us Don't be so like jacked up when you meet somebody, slow down Get a baseline Focus on how you're showing up, nototice, give theace the person the space to be gather data in terms of what the baseline is and Just use your common sense Is their energy matching their body language and what they're saying Are they giving you a vibe that you like? You have so much that you can just absorb based on common sense And then also don't go back in and make it about you Always just be on the observing We self sabotage ourselves. We're so I don't want to say this like the self development space It's a great thing. I like I like books like that. I read, I listen, I want to learn. But if you're so in the me me, me headpace, no, no, no, no because you're not seeing things. So you also have to find a part of you where it's like Mel invited me. I drove all the way from New York City. She wants me here to be her guest. There's a reason I'm here. I walk in, I bring my best self in. you know, I don't walk in, I say hello. That's I control the parts of me that I can And then after that I also have to surrender a bit And then understand that Ml is the other fifty percent of the equation. fifty, fifty But if I'm so self focused and I make the whole thing about me and I'm not paying attention to you, I'm not reading the room, I'm not looking at your colleagues and even just the tone of the team, how are people feeling? How do they move in the room? Because that's another indication too of like the synergy, the environment, becausecause sometimes people can shaft you, right? Hey, come on in, The charmer, which is something you really should do Those are like certain cues, certain behaviors with people. Those are definitely red flly cues How do you know a charmer So I interviewed U Jim Smith. who was detective for the Canadian police and he did serial killers, he did all sorts of confessions. We were talking about one of his cases, Russell Williams and he got a confession. This guy serial rapist. murder all that. and he was actually a military commander. Anyways One of the things I asked Jim I said, you know, what part of human behavior, like of all the types you've met. L what was the thing where you were like, o? I got to look out for that person. He's like the charmer the hey, how are you? I'm here that person who's very like overt and charming and and trying to very much ingratiate themselves with you Like those people Always like why are you trying so hard? And those are true. They actually charmer falls into a little bit of that and I'm going to say this from a clinical perspective, a true narcissistic personality disorder or an antis social personality disorder, which is people who you would call a sociopath or psychopath, they have some of them have that trait, not all, but you'll see it there. So how do you get the truth out of anyone It depends what you're asking. Do you want them to verbally say something to you because you cannot tell me something verbally, but you just showed me the truth and that's all I need There was somebody I was working very closely with and Someone I liked a lot, I considered a friend, but I was trying to do work stuff with and She would say a lot H actions were very different than what she would say You know, she had very strong boundaries, but when it came to I had like, hey, I'm not available. I was like, what do you mean you're not available? I'm like, Dude you turn your phone off like at five on a Friday and then Like I'm in another country and you're like you're kind of losing it. Right. So W people, I don't physically have to have somebody tell me the truth. They can show me the truth. So with this scenario, I'm telling you, there were so many indicators with this person. I never actually had a conversation where I said You need to tell me blah blah blah. They gave me so many indicators to their actions and behavior that it was notough for me to collect intntel and say Nice human being, I like them but they're not for me And you know what I did It is quietly pulled back. because it was too hard of a relationship to have. I never had that conversation I think people feel like in this day and age where it's like, speak up Tell everybody Like why You can Pick and choose when you're going to do it. I mean, sometimes it's not worth it Sometimes it's not worth it at all Can you truly tell how somebody feels about a situation or another person mostostly it's observing, it's also it depends. You look at their performance. So let's say it's an employee Just look at their performance. You can try to help people as much as possible sometometimes like you can't They'll show you They'll show you like what they're willing to do and not do I think that It's easy to ignore the behavior easy to ignore. the kind of output of somebody's behavior and make excuses. And so I keep coming back to this theme with you as I'm having this experience You're just being you. so I'm like giving you the space to be you and you have this steely confidence and this subtle nature where if you are grounded, People reveal themselves. You can really decode just about anything if you're paying attention Let me say one thing, because you brought up the confidence thing a few times. L there are times where I'm not sure but I'm still steady in myself. Sometimes we invest in people and we want to believe in people and we want to trust in people And then sometimes what is right there in front of us, We don't We don't want to say it. No. I don't. I don't want to see it. I'm gonna to keep and keep and keep and keep. And then I get pissed off at you for not being what I want you to be, meeting my expectations, thenen I get angrier and more frustrated And then I'm also mad at myself for being in that situation and on and on and on that cycle goes I'm nodding because I really resonate with that. How do you break that So let's say that Be you've even mentioned personally too that you talked about the fact that you trained and how to deal with lies So when you realize that what somebody is saying does not match what they're doing How somebody is treating you does not match what they said Somebody is you know, talking all about boundaries, but they're crossing yours consistently How do you confront that? When do you know to call somebody out versus to back away? So sometimes you do have to call people out. So in those moments where you have to deal with someone, let's say it's your team. Okay. And you have to address certain things. It's okay to address things, And I think that that's another important thing. It's first you make the decision Do I want a deal or not deal? Okay. If I don't deal, what are the consequences? It's always better to deal with things when they're small, especially when they' people or a circle of people that you have to deal with like a team or family member where you're like this person's not going to go anywhere. Problems are small deal with them because what happens is they get bigger, bigger, bigger And then you get angrier, angrier, angrier. and then it becomes this big problem and you're like you've done this, you've done that. and then you get frustrated. So one When you have small problems My dress time because they're small. person now knows you're paying attention Also Kindness is clarity You can be clear in what you expect of others. Sometimes they don't know. We presume I wouldn't do this So they should know better. It's like look, they're in a whole other headspace. R So I think addressing things while they're small, not waiting for things to get big when it's important. And there are situations where it's like, you know what, this person is too much of a mess, It's too much of a shit show, or it's too much stress if it's someone where your phone rings and you're like, Your stomach turns. That's when you're like, all right, something Something's going on here I need to minimize my exposure to this person. I'm not saying cut people out, although I have done that and I don't think that's a bad thing otherer. you save that for when You need to do it And then with some others, you just I call it like you just make more space. You make more space. make more space. You don't answer the phone as often. You let it go to voicemail You can send a text rather than call back. There are ways to create space peopleople when you realize This isn't for me becausecause not everybody is for you And but it's your responsibility to recognize it and then to act on it I'm I can feel person listening completely leaning in and there's probably a person they have in mind And then there's that heartache that you feel when you go, oh my Godd, I'm probably the name on someone else's phone that when My name pops up their stomach twists because I'm not showing up how I need to show up or Or that's or maybe you're showing up in a way that they don't want you to show up. Hm and doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong What if it's You're calling Oakley because you're concerned and worried about you know, what's going on in Oakley's life. And the phone rings in Oakley's like, o, it's mom and stomach's turning, right? Yeah. In that scenario, I would think maybe sometimes you're like, I don't care if your stomach's turning. Right. Yes, thousand percent. Be I know that I'm acting in a way. that I'm that is aligned with my values. Yeah. In the other scenario, when you're making somebody else's stomach turn, you're probably not Yes. So they' right? There's yes. there's scenarios for that. Yes. Yeah. Can you talk about paralinguistics, what is that? So paralinguistics is what you sound like when you speak. It's your tone, your pitch, your voice. So often people are so focused on what they're going to say, right? We have our talking points and I need to make sure I hit this and I hit that. I need to say this and It is what we sound like when we deliver information. That is more powerful than the things that actually come out of our mouth. When I left the US Secret Service and I really learned paralinguistics more so when I began doing the news I left the seecret Tervice and I started doing the news And meaning you were an expert on the new. Yeah, I started doing the Today show. initially and then, you know, shootings and crime. And one of the things I learned from the working you know, going on airs, I had to learn to make sure my paralinguistics were strong enough so that when I spoke It resonated and I found Yes, it matters what you say, but half the time, it's how you say it. And so I learned talking points So I'm going to give my top three Talk less. Give them your greatest hits and this is whether it's a pitch, you're talking to somebody they don't need at all Give them the strongest hits that you have put more value in how you speak U So it's authority in your voice, We are more likely to listen and believe in someone see them as a confident person or as a person of authority when they use a stronger tone voice, meaning their stronger deeper tone So if somebody's listening, and they would like to convey more confidence More authority And they're leaning in as you're talking about paralinguistics And I hear you loud and clear. It's not what you say that really matters. it's how you say it. It's the strength that comes out through your voice. And one thing that's going to help you do that is to have very few talking points So boil down the thing that you want to convey. to simple ideas Focus on a lower and notice I'm doing it now. slow way of speaking A other tips in terms of displaying that kind of authority Pauses in silence are good because it lets you Catch up with your thoughts You don't have to say everything that's in your head. Like noody cares. Just give them give them your top talking points. The other thing that you touched on is when you say less, you don't have to think as hard. What I'm also trying to do is lighten somebody's cognitive load. If I've got all this stuff in my head that I have to say, My cognitive load is maxed out I'm not going to speak well because I don't have enough cognitive Lad to pay attention to my voice. I'm going to go, okay, Mel, this is what I want to tell you about. I' from I drove up from New York and you know, like and I was really upset about it That I'm not going to have enough bandwidth to stop And think about how I sound. And I would tell people, even when I do the news I don't want I don't want text. I'm like give me my bullet points. I'm going to know my stuff. I'm going to know these three areas really well. and then I'm not going to try to memorize everything else. Like forget it Even if I interview somebody, I'm like, I I looked at my questions start asking questions. But then I'll let the conversation kind of move and go. And then maybe I'll look back up my notes to see like, oh, did I ask that? Let me go back there. Don't get so hung up on memorizing stuff, that that messes you up memorizing things worrying about that The most important thing when you're really trying to convey something to someone be present physically Think about how you're sitting, how you're presenting. That's more important. Think about, are you looking at that person, not just when you speak, but when they speak? Have that U And then at the same time Just own your voice. I think that that's really it. own your voice And then maybe get rid of things like I'm just going to hurry up and say this, All right, I've got a few minutes left. Let me just power through this Because when you do that, you tell people inadvertently, I'm going to hurry through this because what I have to say is not that important So I don't want to waste your time because obviously,'m I'm wasting it That's what I'm saying And I really, truly I learned this through watching Pidents. These guys would speak They't they don't race through anything. They get up on that mic Nope, I have something to say. And not just them but other world leaders. they would get up there and they would speak, they would own their voice Oh it Especially women, mal. And I usually don't try to gender things. but like with women, we go high and we, you know, Okay And I think Your voice captures all the stuff you've been through in life So just make sure that the voice you're using is really your true voice and not the one that's captured all these markers of shame, of guilt, of frustration, of embarrassment And now you're showing up not your true voice Where I'm going with that is You don't have to be on All the time, you don't have to be one hundred percent brave, one hundred percent confident. You don't always have to be here. You don't always have to operate at this level Like it's okay if you don't You become more courageous or more brave when you do things. I will tell you like the more I've messed up, the more I lose more brave I become, you don't get better when you win You just don't, Is it nice to one? Sure. Is it nice not to get rejection? Sure Bravery comes through action. It's not something you think about It's something you do I think what's really important is It is okay to go into a meeting be afraid. It is okay to have a conversation with someone be like, you know what? I don't really have it, but I'm just gonna Ask what I need to ask I think what's important is get into the What am I actually doing here And maybe Leave yourself kindind of leave that you out of it. Leave your Check yourself out the door Check your emotions at the door, leeave them there And if you can come in mission focus. So if I sat there and let's say I did once really high profile I don't think I'm not allowed to say what case it is, but it was a high profile case of a murder of a child and It was a very well known case. and there was new information that came out. Was I concerned? Yes, Was I nervous? Yes, all eyes were on me to get information. I went in and I said, Evie, you don't matter Heavy, you're gonna you're going to sayay outside You're going to be focused on what you're doing. And my goal is to get information to see Is this person involved with the murder of this child? or Do they have information What is really going on here? And so I took all of my essence in being to focus on what I was trying to accomplish That has helped me, even in personal situations. Let's say you have a loved one and you want to know Let's say they have a substance abuse issue And you really want to find out like what's going on You're gonna check you at the do door And you're going to say, okay, this is not about me and how I feel I want to find out as much as I can about what's going on with this person And then once I get all theel intelligence information I have Now I can move. That's That's how you become brave when you become focused on what you're doing. So maybe these ideas of I need to be brave to do this. I need to be confident to do this. I need to be to have motivation to do this. Such time wasters. So I can't do something unless I have bravery and I have to check that or unless I'm confident, check that, or unless I'm motivated, check that I want to do nothing. And we create obstacles. We put these in the middle of what we're trying to do. and then you know what we do? We don't do what we're supposed to do. because we're chasing these outliers that really like Are they really the barometers of whether I'm going to accomplish something or not? When I went to NYPD, my first week I was a hot mess I was like, what am I doing here? Everyone's yelling at me I can't wear makeup. was like, What do mean you can't wear makeup. You're not alled toar makeup. I'm like You want to come in like Mate? So it was just so off, but was I afraid? It was all these things, but I showed up. You know what? you I've learned from you so far that I think is really important And it's changed the way that I would approach a situation with a loved one is when you mentioned, let's say you've got somebody that you love that has a substance abuse problem. Most of us would go into that intervention or that conversation like I gott to get the truth out of ' them. and what I've learned from you in just this conversation is that You don't need them to say anything Before you walk in that door and have that conversation, you need to be clear about your objectives what you're doing, which is you're trying to assess the situation and gather data And it doesn't require them to speak at all. That's a great example of the way you broke it down. So what is your true goal in that situation? Let's use this as an example. I have someone, a loved one who's got a substance abuse issue. What is my goal? Ultimately? My goal ultimately. is to be the most effective that I can to support my loved one from a safe distance. And that is going to require me to get a assessment of what the hell is happening based on my gut Because if I'm dealing with somebody with addiction That's somebody that lies as a coping mechanism. So I know that going in I also have a whole history of behavior that I've probably been in denial about that. I know that going in And so you're going in observe and assess and to ask Questions. with an open heart and an open mind. But you got to have your secret service brain training in the background because based on body language, based on tone of voice, based on notot answering questions basased on past behavior, you are going to get all the data that you need to know where the situation is, whether they tell you the truth or not And then it's not on them. it's on you to decide what you're going to do about it because we also know that people don't heal until they're ready to heal They don't get sober until the Pain of being drunk or stoned or whatever is way worse than the pain of actually trying to change And so there's nothing you can do to force them to actually change All you can do is use the tools that you're giving us right now to not get so damn emotional and not try to control the situation and not try to like accuse, but to just sit back and be like, I'm here to get the data that I need to know what I need to do next because that's all I can control anyway. What am I dealing with? What am I dealing with? I need to know what's going on in front of me. Look, and you can maybe take it one further because if you already know, you might be like my goal is to try talk to this person to see if Can I get them to go get help rehab or whatever help looks like That could be really ultimately your mission, but you also have to be okay with You may not get there And may be like, but my goal is to get the truth so then I can try to get this person helped But I also know I'm fifty percent of the equation. right. They're the other fifty. so they may not want my or what Right? All that stuff you just said I have to be okay with that and I also have to have my strategy for what do I do then afterward? And I can figure that out later what it's going to look like for me, whether do I want this person in my life and how much, given the circumstances yada, yadda. But when you go in that conversation, you're not going in how I feel what this is doing to my life. It's like, I wanna know what the fuck is going on Right? What am I dealing with? Yeah And then it's my ultimate goal would be my mission to get you help But I may not get there. Maybe not that day What I love about this approach is that it has nothing to do with them Even if you go in and we all want everybody to reassure us, right? We all want everybody to tell us the truth Somebody not reassuring you is an answer. Somebody not giving you a direct answer is an answer Somebody refusing to answer your questions is also an answer and We spend way too much time than dismissing that and making excuses for it d d d d da. Instead of saying this motherfucker can't even give me a one sentence answer to a simple question I have all the information I need to know what I'm dealing with And it's the inability, I think to assess the situation and to Really trust your gut and to look at somebody's behavior or their lack of behavior as the only honest answer that they can give you and then to act accordingly. You know, it's interesting. I did I remember I did this one interview. I don't remember what the person did. He was involved in some kind of fraud or something. And u He wouldn't come out. So you would think in trying to get a confession from someone is You want him to say, I did this And what I learned is that's not what you're after. Like I didn't need that So he wasn't giving me any information about what was going on. So I never tried to get them to say, I took this, I stole this money. I committed this crime. like I wasn't trying to get that, but I would get them They're called admissions, where people admit to little little things And as you get these little admissions, all these little admissions give you picture it's like a puz But some like I remember with him. I said to him You don't have to tell me if you did it or not Can you tell me What are you worried about And his thing was, I'm worried about my family. Huge red flag. I make up He just gave me admission. He just told me why he doesn't want to tell me why he did what he did So I said, OkayK, worried about your family? He said, yes, the blowback. Well I think we needed to do a search warrant or something. and I said, well, they need to do a search warrant How do you want to do this? How can I help you? Maybe he's like I can get my wife to leave town These are little admissions that he's without him telling me, yes, I did this, he's giing me little little clues that are telling me, I did this You don't need a smoking gun from people They show you But everyone's waiting for the person to say, I did this. I lied, I cheated. It's a waste of time to try to get that. Most of the information you're going to get from people are little little bread crrumbs that you collect and you put together and you got your loaf of bread And I think the biggest thing standing in the wayays you don't want to see the truth And that's why we don't trust our guts because All along the way, people's behavior and their lack of behavior And their decisions are giving you the truth about who they are and what they care about and what they're doing and what they're not doing and how they make you feel