Final Advice for Stronger Relationships

Hey, it's friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robins podcast So this year, my husband and I are celebrating our thirtieth wedding anniversary. I know. That's a long time. And people often ask me, Mel What is the secret to a lasting relationship? And I'll tell you, I joke. I say Mary Christopher Robins because the dude is so calm. Me on the other hand, I am the eruptor, the volcano, the hurricane And here's the truth Like every relationship, We have conflict We fight We have frustrations. We irritate each other. We've had our ups, we've had our downs. But let me tell you something Because of what I just learned, in the episode that you're about to listen to with two of the greatest relationship researchers of all time. I am so excited to go home to Chris tonight and to practice everythingvery that I just learned and by the way, apologize for a lot of what I saw in myself that was not so great for Chris over the years. And you're going to leave this episode feeling so excited about love excited about what's possible I cannot wait for you to experience the magic of Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman who have spent over fifty years researching the science of relationships. The Gotms are going to roleplay the four biggest behaviors in every single relationship that drive people apart. And by role playay I mean They're going have the arguments. I kid you not. This is so incredible because you're going to see yourself You're going to see your current partner. In fact, you may even relive a moment with an ex and understand why you're not together anymore But more importantly The Gotms are going to teach you exactly How to handle conflict in a way that diffuses tension and brings you closer together rather than tearing the relationship apart. And if you're sitting there thinking, well, you know, we don't fight, I don't need this. They will tell you Avoiding conflict is why you feel disconnected and lonely If you're thinking, well, I'm not really in a relationship right now. I don't really need this Oh Yeah you do. And the reason why you do is you don't want to keep repeating the same mistakes You're going to feel so empowered. you're going to know yourself better. You're going to know what to avoid and actually what to do. And just, I mean, the humanity of all of this that you're about to learn and laugh Oh my God, you're going to tear up. You're going to feel excited being in love again So whether you're dating, you're single, you're married, you're divorced Get ready for the gift of the Gobins Did you know that you can buy your car completely online on Auto Trader Really Just go to autorader. com and get picky Search through dealer listings for the makeake model color, all the features that matter Then all you need to do is drop in your info and you'll only see cars that fit your budget Really Once you find the one, do the whole deal online and either pick the car up at the dealership or have it delivered right to your driveway. Auto trrader, buuy your car online Really? This message is brought to you by Apple Card Spring always feels like a reset Clearing things out, simplifying what you don't need AppleCard is built with that same idea in mind. No annual fee, no late fees, and no foreign transaction fees No fees, period Get started and apply in the wallet app on your iPhone today, subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from seventeen point four nine percent to twenty seven point seven four percent based on credit worthiness. Rates as of january first, twenty twenty six, existing customers can view their variable APR in the wallet app Or at card. apppple. com. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA. Salt Lake City Branch. terms and more at apppplecard. com. Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robins podcast. It's an honor to spend this time with you If you're new or if somebody sent this episode to you I want to personally welcome you to the Mel Robins podcast family Today in our Boston studios, we have two worldld renowned researchers who have spent fifty years researching what makes relationships thrive and what makes them fall apart. I'm talking about none other than world renowned Dr. Julie Schwartz Gotman and her husband, Dr. John Gotman Over the fifty years that they've been researching love and relationships, they've published hundreds of academic articles. They've written fifty two bestselling books on love, marriage and conflict They run the most famous relationship research lab in the world They are the founders of the Gotman Institute which trains clinicians all over the world in the science of fostering and sustaining greater love and health in relationships there quite simply, every couple's therapist favorite couples therapists. And if you don't have any experience in couples therapy, well guess what? You're about to get it for free from the single greatest researchers in the world. They literally wrote the book on it. They have flown all the way across the country. to be here for you. And trust me, when I tell you You're about to fall in love with them please help me welcome the extraordinary dor John and Dr. Julie Gotman to the Mel Robins podcast We're so happy to be here, Mel. Thankk you. Oh. Honors mine Honor is mine. You know, I would love to have you start by just thinking about the thousands of couples that you have researched and this extraordinary body of work It spans fifty years And speak to the person who is listening right now and share what might change about their relationships If they really take to heart all of this research and wisdom and they apply it as soon as they're done listening M Beautiful. I think two things I would say that really change. One is that hopefully conflict which is absolutely normal in every relationship becomes more calm, more gentle and more constructive. also more compassionate has the real theme confonlict is Understand your partner better. It's not to tear your partner down It's to really get inside their world and understand where they're coming from So Hopefully that might take place after listening beautiful show. And I would say secondly Maybe they do more to express gratitude Maybe they ask more questions of their partner to really understand where their partner is at here and now internally They may have known them when they were first dating New that world, but people evolve and change. So Who are they now Asking questions draws that out Yeah, I would I would say that u And all the fifty four years of studying couples, U My friend Bob Levinson and I started this research wayay back then, and neither of us had a clue. about what makes relationships so work. We went from one disaster to another. And if I was going to boil it down to one thing, I have this invention that I keep in my back pocket and It's a little notebook and I keep it there all the time Julie utters the four terrifying words. We need to talk I get out my notebook. Very slowly So I can delay my reaction. I get out my pen very slowly. And I opened the book up very slowly And then I say Okay, baby, talk to me What's on your mind, what's on your heart And I write down what she's saying And the more defensive I feel The more I take notes and slower down. becausecause I think the one thing we've discovered is that The masters of relationships, the ones who are happy and stay together, really seem to have a modotto that When Your partner iss upset about anything The world stops And you listen And this is my way of listening. taking notes and doing it very slowly. so I can calm down and not react quickly by saying something I'll regret later on I want just It's okay. It's okay honey. You know what's adorable about you too. And if you're listening, I'm just gonna to describe it. If you're watching this episode, you will have already seen it is that you Both keep turning toward one another and smiling And you have this very warm. looving gaze at one another as the other is talking. How can you not love this This is beautiful And you also are like holding hands and there's a there's a physical touch connection. Oh yeah, which is extremely noticeable because you don't see it all that often in couples. And I wanted to just unpack The genius of your response, Dror Gotman, to those four terrifying words, we need to talk. All right U whichich I'm also realizing sometimes I don't give Chris the grace of preparing him for the fact that I'm about to blast at him like a volcano. But what I loved because I do think There is something very intentional about what you just described as you're imagining Dr. Gotman and he leaned forward and he reached into his back pocket and he pulled out a notebook that's like the size of a three by five card. And you opened it up slowly. and then you said you started to write And that is your way of listening, but it's so important to also point out as you're hearing this you are also managing your reaction. Exactly in the middle of what could become an argument or conflict. Yeah, Dellay is the way of engaging the frontal lobes instead of reacting direct from your amygdala you know, which is terror, right? and defensiveness comes out. So when you engage the brain, the thinking brain then be a little less defensive. Yeah, let me add, you can be less physiologically aroused.. You know, one of the things that we found in our research is that oftentimes people can be sitting as calmly as John and I are right now Having a conflict One of their heart rates will be over a hundred beats a minute. And they've gone into fight or flight which means blood has left this prefrontal cortex, moved back into the motor cortex. They cannot think clearly, listen clearly Problem solve and be creative. It's impossible because this is offline. So by John pulling out that notebook very slowly, there's a couple of ways it's wonderful For one keeps you calm, K keeps you more focused on kind of the cognitive element of what I'm saying as opposed to Didy? Did she really say it Or Or for me, what it tells me is that gosh, he's going to take me seriously, right He's not going to be thinking about, okay, when do I get the oil changed in the car? I can tell that he's listening because he is taking notes. And that's meaningful for me. It helps me to feel his presence And it's a wonderful thing for all of you to do as well. I love that. And I could imagine Dror Gotman reaching, hold on, let me get my notebook out of my pocket here You study love in a lab What does that mean for the person that's not familiar with your groundbreaking foundational research on relationships What do you do Yeah. so Julie and I, after we first met, you know, we designed this apartment where one hundred and thirty newly wed couples just a couple of months after the wedding Snd twenty four hours. camera' rolling No instructions You know, they have an opportunity to Eat together clean up together. you know, read the newspaper, watch TV, whatever they want to do And the cameras are just rolling. And while they're walking around We're measuring their heart rate, they're measuring all kinds of physiological measures Every time they urinate, we take a blood we take a sample and measure stress hormones And then we take blood from them next day and look at the immune system and stress hormones in the immune system So We're just kind of watching couples. And it turns out that we can predict the future of the relationship six years later from the way they interacted in that apartment lab Prediction is really ninety four percent accurate predicting the future. So you could predict with ninety four percent accuracy who was going to make it and who wasn'tight That's right This is like the original reality TV. It sounds like you guys pented the format. That's right. Let me add also That this brilliant man over here created a fantastic system for codifying emotions That means looking at the face, looking at the movements of the body, looking at the words tone of voice, the eye gaze And Assessing from that, what emotion is that individual feeling when they speak then what's the other individual gonna to respond with? What kind of feeling is that? So we call that spPff, specific affect, which means emotion, specific affect coding And that in itself tells us a huge amount Dynamics. Who's being belligerent? Who's being domineering? Who is being subordinate Who's being kind Who's trying to make a ripp care if they said the wrong thing so that the other person doesn't get their feelings. O using humor as a way to wind things down. humor turns out to be very important Why is how we handle conflict so important in a relationship. because we fight all the time. We are human beings. You know, one of the things, Mel that I have really tried to understand since I was a kid is how come People are mean to each other. Why is that? What's evil? What does that even mean What I've really understood from lots of archaeological reading and so on, is that people have aggression They've also got Alruism They can be very, very kind. but all of us have those aggressive instincts inside of us. So what happens with it Typically, it goes to the person that's closest to us. Because that person, we assume, is not going to abandon us is not going to run away They're going to be there to listen to us. And so We have personality differences from our partner Lifestyle preference, differences from our partner. Ebody has those. and sixty nine percent of the issues couples struggle with are perpetual conflicts. They never, ever go away. That was a big surprise to us. Yeah. So they just keep coming up over and over and over again in some different format through the side door So what do you do with that? Well People can avoid those, sweep them under the rug You know, they don't have conflict, but they grow more distant typically over time. Or they can learn to really talk in a way that's calm littleittle bit of emotion, maybe a little more intellectual, you know, trying to solve the problem very fast We call those validators And then there's me. I'm a volatile like maybe you are And we love to explode. We love to be passionate about expressing our emotions. And I'm a conflict avoider It's a great combo So a ttle figured it out over time We're going to get into these different But before we do, I want to just talk a little bit about the research because it's so fascinating. You've already mentioned that byy observing a couple in this apartment love lab, you could predict with ninety four percent accuracy. whether or not they were going to be together in six years. That's right. And we're going get into what you were looking at that really was the signal that they're not going to make it But there's also interesting research that you have around how the first Three minutes of a fight everything. Right. Let's hear about that. You know, Bob and I found that If we We had couples talk about a conflict issue for fifteen minutes We could predict with almost ninety percent accuracy. whether they would divorce or stay together. And if they stayed together how happily married or unhappily married they would be. But then someomebody in my lab, Civil Career said What if we lop off the data from the last three minutes and we only have twelve minutes? What's the prediction like with only twelve minutes of data And it was just fine. And she said, well Let's lop off another three minutes And it was just fine She got down to the first three minutes And we were still predicting The future of the relationship very accurately by just looking at that first three minutes. because couples who really are going wind up divorced or together unhappily start off the conversation really differently. from couples who are we call the masters of relationships beginning is so important. Now I'm like, okay, well what's the beginning that predicts divorce and breakup versus a beginning that doesn't. I have an idea. Let's role play it. Let's do it. Let's rolepl it. Sure. All right. so this is predictive of B and down. Yeah, well, so I want to talk to you about this. I really think that you're You're really ruining this marriage. And it's your responsibility because you're being so obsessive compulsive. Wait a minute.ait a minute. Let me finish. I'm not gonna to let you finish. You're such a slob that you know, I can't even walk through the I am room. I am charmingly , but you are really a nut. I mean, you're You need therapy. You really do. I mean, everything has to be perfect for you. Everything's got to be perfect. Well, that's right. And I need just to live with you. I don't even want to anymore. All right I feel like I now know what it's like to be a marriage therapist. watch do You ain't see nothing. That could be worse. I once had somebody who was so upset, so flooded, and she was all of about four foot ten. and her husband was six five had cheated on her, et cetera. So I tried to calm her down. She finally sat down on the couch And my couch was a beautiful red leather, gorgeous couch. When she left, there were scratch marks on the couch That that bet her heart rate was up. I bet it was. So unpack what was happening? in that because I think that we've all experienced those kinds of fights, whether it's about the relationship or now you're arguing about, well, youre you're giving the kid too much money and that, that, that and you're over parenting and like, you know, aiming at like what was happening in that You just had. So I was describing the problem in terms of her personality being deficient that there was something wrong with her. It was all her fault. So you, you, you, you. That's all He was saying, and of course, I got defensive and I counterattacked That's a classic form of defensiveness. you counter atttack So then I moved in to you, you, you, you and it was all about character flaws He your job. That's right. And all I'm doing is trying to give her feedback about what's wrong with her so. She can improve. ' I'm pretty much perfect as far as I can tell. See this, it's a halo. It's a halo. It's not a Yamka, it's a halo that God gave me. So I'm always innocent and it's always her fault. That's the way the disaster is you And notice, did you see any listening there No zero listening. Zero. That's right. So people were talking over each other and immediately coming up with their rebuke before even hearing the last words of their sentence and the partner. R away, persuasion enters. I'm trying to persuade her that I'm right and she's wrong. you know, I haven't even listened to what her concerns are The other thing that happened is volume started getting higher and higher and higher. Right rightight because neither one of you were listening and you're both blaming and now you're trying to talk over one another Yeah then you both went like And if I'm physiologically flooded, I think All I need to do is repeat myself louder in order to be more persuasive. That's the way I reason When I'm flooded. sixty three times later, have I listened? No does a positive argument look like. Okay, let's let's roodel that. We can use the same top. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So What's going on, hu? Well, I'm kind of thinking that I can't do anything right. you know, I I haveve tried tried you know, being neater more tidy cleaning things up and You know, it's never good enough for you. It feels like that. And like like I can't. satisfy you. It's just like I kind of give up You know, what am I supposed to do to make you happy God, that sounds actually like a pretty terrible feeling. Yeah. So you're really frustrated because There's nothing you can do that you feel is good enough, is that right?y making you feel that way Yeah Oh dear. What am I doing that leads to you feeling that way? Because I don't want you to feel that way. I don't want to. Well you know, like for example, you asked me to clean up the kitchen. you know So I clean it up, you know, and It doesn't meet your standards So I don't even know what your standards are. I mean do you want me to tell you what they are? Probably not. Well, no, that would help. W I really would like to know, yeah. Oh go. Beuse I think I've done it justust fine. And then you're disappointed I just don't get it Oh. I see. Well, I tell you what, what would make a huge difference for me. is after let me write this down. Okay. That's a great idea. So your notebook Hang on a minute So Let me just breathe a little bit Okay. so I promise I won't hurt your Okay. A after washing the dishes. Yeah It would be wonderful if you would wipe down the counters Yeah, just get all those crumbs into the sink and then rinch them down the sink It's really all I need. just to have counters that are clean would make a huge difference for me. Okay. It would feel great. You know, I really can't tell when counter is clean or not because it's got You know, you got this pattern of I I yeah This is true. This is why I chose M counter with brown in it. If you disguise all of J just wipe it down really well. just wipe Okay. That's all you have to do. All right. All right Would you would you? No I'll do that. Y. God. I love you It makeakes sense. you Aorable Okay. Can you explain what just happened? in that conflict Yeah, yeah. easy So It started, it started in a perfect way was John bringing up that he's feeling bad about an interaction of ours But notice, he's not saying you're a Smuck and that's why I feel bad. He's saying I feel like I can't do anything right. So Is you in there? no? He is having that feeling Pulse on my heart Mill K's being vulnerable with me and telling me what his feeling is like and that feeling I'm translating into, oh God, he's feeling hopeless He's feeling despair I don't want him to feel that way But Here's the kicker You want to understand what's making him feel that way. So instead of just responding with, you know, just a comment. I ask a question to try to understand, tellell me more Tell me more because You know, it's sort of like if something Pre prettyty smelly is bubbling up from the earth I want to know what's under the earth. You know, what's going on down there that is creating something that feels bad for him. So I ask him a question And that gives me information about H That's what's happening inside. That's something that we can change leads to a solution. I love this example, and I'm going to tell you why I personersally No that Chris and I for years would have this reoccurring fight And when I'm volcanoing and he's turtling when he pokes his head out of the shell to say something, it would literally be Nothing's ever good new for you Yeah. And I think that's a very comm and way that people then bark at each other and it's very different to say, Well, nothing's good enough for you. I don't even know what to do because it's never enough for you versus what you just taught us which is instead of accusing not it's you I feel that no matter what I do, it's never enough. Right And you're right, as soon as Chris started saying that to me I immediately feel like a monster and then I want to know, okay, well what exactly I'm sorry And I can see why this works. Sure, R. Right. You know, if couples fight the first way. yelling at each other. It's never enough for you. findes door slams, go into your corners Is there hope Sure You know, the thing is this When in our lab we saw couples who were going down the road of distress Remember, they weren't getting any intervention. They weren't reading anything, they weren't listening to fabulous podcasts like yours. They weren't trying to learn a different manner. of relating to one another. So without intervention, they're falling back on old habits on what they learned at the feet of their parents or caretakers which didn't work So You know, nobody takes relationships one on one in high school You got to learn different ways of talking When somebody says to you, Ohh, we never fight Mhm What do you think H I think they're probably conflict avoiders and I think, oh dear Gota help this couple surface unearthed The differences, the things that are irritating, annoying, because if you hold them inside and you don't bring them up, after a while, they accumulate. And then you may end up with an eruption Right, whichich doesn't help anybody. One thing that can happen We saw it in This study that the Sloan Center at UCLA did on dual career couples with young children And they spent less than ten percent of an evening in the same room We talk to each other an average of thirty five minutes a week And mostly what they talked about was Eerrands, Wh's going do what? when So they wound up really living these parallel lives where they ignored the relationship, they ignored Friendship, intimacy fun Adventure They were just Lives had devolved into this infinite to do list that they did together, but that was the only contact they had So they lived life in parallel You know, he goes to work, she goes to work. they come home, they're with the kids, but they're not really talking to each other. They're not saying You know We used to have so much fun and we don't have any anymore. We're just kind of becoming drudges. They don't say that to one another. They say roommates They stay roommates They avoid conflict, they avoid saying How lonely they are, how unhappy they are, how much they miss the way they used to really pay attention to the relationship. If the person listening is thinking, well, that's me Because I can think of periods of Chris and my marriage where we have three kids who are now all in their twenties But when they were little, That was us. That was you. We were two ships passing in the morning and the night and arguing about who didn't go to the grocery store and that no matter what I do, it's never enough. Yeah, you have to build in rituals of connection in the relationship, build times that you can count on having your partner's ears. and You know, we have an annual honeymoon that we do And for twenty seven years, we've gone to the same bed and breakfast and took her a kayak And we spend two weeks asking each other Three questions What sucked about last year What did you hate about last year? What did you love about last year And what do you want next year to be like So we we have that ritual Well we know we can connect. And it's romantic and it's fun and we kayak and You know, we hike and You know, it's always magic Let me point out though, what John is talking about Especially for really busy two career couples are those rituals of connection? but they don't have to be great big u, you know, broadcasts, they can be something so simple like How do you say good morning first thing when you wake up. How do you say good night and you look forward to that? What do you do on the weekends when you get to sleep in How about Night You know, I mean, lots of people talk about that, but do they actually do it? So there's so many ways we can connect with one another that sustains the sense that a beside me even though they're in a different office. I love that recommendation because I do think when you're in that moment, as the research suggests which I think most couples are both probably working because of the reality of how expensive life is and coming and going and only thirty five minutes a week in the I mean, that's just can you imag imagine? appreciate the small thing, like could you Create something first thing in the morning. Could you create something that's part of the wind down at night One of the things that I remember that made a big difference and I'll just share it in case it's helpful for the person listening is since logistics was the reality and it was also the source of all of our conflict The one connection ritual that really changed things was we had a Sunday night calendar meeting Yeah that doesn't exactly sound like a date night. Yeah but it became They consistent thing we could do every week that helped us be aligned and helped us coordinate the logistics Yeah at one view pointoint.. You were a team. Yes and to this day We do it. That's great. And it's just the smallest of things. And the other thing that I have to give a huge shout out to Chris that he does that makes a big difference for me He puts little notes. It's kind of like the notebook you have. He'll rip out a page and just put, I love you and I'll open up my eyeglass in the middle of the day. And there it is. Beautif I'll open up my wallet. And there it is. And I had no idea that he had done that. And so it's kind of this little signal that I'm still here with you even though I may not be standing next. You know, a consistent research finding is that You cannot just focus on conflict as a therapist. You have to work on Friendship and intimacy, romance, passion, play and fun. You have to work on all of that together. It's not enough to just conflict better You really have to bring you know, the two souls together in a way that is brings joy into the relationship. Let me just mention something about your meeting which is fabulous doing that as a ritual of connection One thing that we also talk about is a weekly meeting, which often takes place on Sundays. We call it the state of the Union. And so what we suggest is that First, you begin with gratitude, you think of something your partner has done maybe you haven't yet thank them for, and you express your gratitude and your appreciation to your partner for having done that You know, so often we take our partners for granted, right? Eespecially after years of being together So all of us, however, still need to be seen. We need to be appreciated. And so starting with that is lovely And then in the middle piece Maybe there is a complaint that you have, you haven't talked about Or maybe you had a little regrettable incident that you need to process. clear the air about that, try and understand what went wrong during that and what to do right next time. And then you end the meeting with another appreciation, another expression of gratitude I mean, there's there's nothing better then Hearing gratitude as a sign that look You're visible You're important to me. I see who you are. I love what you do And I want you to know I recognize you And it's you're beautiful. And a great question to end the meeting with is what can I do next week to make you feel loved Is that the best question in the world? I know You guys are so incredible I don't want to take a break, but I have to hit the pause button so we can give our extraordinary sponsors a little love. And listen, if you're thinking of a friend A sister, a brother, anyone who's walking on eggshells at home. keeps replaying the same fight on a loop and you keep hearing it about it Send them this episode One of the most loving things that you can do for people is to give them a resource like Dr. Julie and John Gottman And don't go anywhere because a little later in the show, the Gotmans are going to walk you step by step how you can bring up something that you're afraid to talk about out it turning into a big fight You do not want to miss this So stay with me The cow, summer schedules get busy fast. I mean, the camps, the vacations, the sports, and with three kids, boy, have I been there? 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I loved meeting so many of you, but you know what I'm doing now I'm taking a beat. I'm resting up for what's next. And if you're having trouble taking care of yourself, therapy with betteretter Help may help you better understand your needs, feel more confident setting boundaries, saying no, and create a rhythm, habits that feel sustainable for you BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. Just take a short questionnaire to identify your needs and preferences and BetterHelp will handle the initial therapist matching work for you. And you can feel confident knowing Better Help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully qualified Take a pause with therapy. Better Help can help life feel manageable again. Sign up and get ten percent off at betterterhelp dot com slash Mel Robins. That's betterhlp dot com slash Mel Robins. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robins. and today you and I are here with Dr. Julie and Dr. John Gottman. They are the world's leading experts on love and what it takes to make a relationship work And they're teaching you and me everything we need to know about the four things that'll blow up your relationships and what you can do to break these patterns of conflict I am so excited about the role playing. So let's just jump right back into the next one I would love to have us just really highlight the warning signs around conflict. And there are four horsemen of the apocalypse in your relationship. What are they Okay. so the first one is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner You're so selfish, you're so lazy, you're so inconsiderate, thoughtless, whatever characteristic that's bad that you're seeing in your partner. That's criticism. okay. Secondly is contempt Contempt is the worst one we have tempt is like criticism comoming from a place of superiority, looking down your nose at your partner and you're snearing a little bit. You've got a look of disgust, maybe on your face There's scorn, there's mockery, sometimes sarcasm. is contempt. And contempt is not only the best predict of relationship demise, but As John was saying and I'll fine tune it a little bit, the number of times a listener hears contempt in a conflict. For fifteen minutes. How many infectious illnesses they're gonna have in the next four years Because it is sulfuric acid for the immune system deal Sir horseman is defensiveness We all love defensiveness. Everybody's defensive unless they have an ego of a rock. I haven't met a rock lately. So defensiveness gets manifested as either counter atttack, as we described, or Whing The innocent victim. Oh, I did to clean the kitchen. What do you mean I love whining. it's great And then there's stonewall And stonewalling is completely shutting down But it's not shutting down for just a few seconds, you know, to come up with the right phrase It's shutting down completely The minutes Minutes, minutes, long minutes, maybe hours at a time And what Brilliant John here and his colleague, Bob Levinson discovered with physiology is that when a person was flooded They were in fight or flight. Their heart rates were often over one hundred beats a minute as they sat there. And they started stonewalling. And they started stonewalling in order go inside and try and soothe themselves because Being in fight or flight while you're sitting there feels awful makes you sick. So that turtle thing that Chris does, right? Yes, you know. And he's just starting to calm himself down, but to the person speaking to him It looks like he doesn't care. cororrect. You know, and he's he's tuned out. you can't I'm yelling. I'm yelling because he's like not responding. That's right. So And it makes it worse. Yes. I can see that. Well the other thing is that Bob and I also, as we kept following couples, we found there was a group of couples who didn't do the four horsemen When they talked about the events of the day There was no connection And they even went out of their way to show that they were bored with their partner talking about their day So it's not that they had all this negative stuff. They didn't have very much positivity, not very much interest in one another very much shared humor, affection And those couples divorce an average of sixteen years after the wedding They last longer It's still disastrous I would love to go deeper into all four of the horsemen of the apocalypse of a relationship. Could you describe for the person who's Listening right now, what do you mean by flooding So somebody's never heard this term And they're not quite and, you know, I think there's a it's kind of obvious if you're like the stonewalling or rather you shut down and you're like the turtle. or you're a volcano like me. But can you describe what does it mean to have this emotional flooding and what are the What are the kind of personality types of flooding, if you will, so the person can see themselves as we unpack the four different horsemen, if that makes sense. Sure, sure So first of all There is no correlation between personality typees And flooding. Anybody can get o. First of all. And what does that mean when you use that term flooded? Okay. so what it means is that you are so overwhelmed by what feels like facing a saber toothed tiger. So what's happening is you're hearing what feels like an attack. It may not be one, but it feels like one And because it feels like an attack Right And it's a dangerous attack. It's threatening. It sets off. this fighter flight response. And so Men who experience this and get flooded going to look like this. They give themselves permission to look away to look away but a female doesn't typically. And here's why. Because you know as women Fr, you know, this high, we are trained to relate to others, to nurture others, to take care of others, right to be sensitive to others' feelings So we don't give ourselves permission to break contact and look away. So what flooding for a woman looks like is very different. It looks like this and you're just kind of staring Nobody's home. No one's home. Nobody's like face. That's right. You may be Meting the other person's eyes, but nobody's home. You've taken yourself out I just realizeed my daughter does that. Mm when hey, I get like scary. that She A deer in the headlight. Yes, doesn't know what to do Yeah. That's right. Yeah Yeah. Okay. That was very helpful Becauseuse you're right. if and I know that this is all based on your research that for a lot of men, it's the crossed arms. It's the looking away. it's the walking out of the room. Yeah or going to make a drink as you're walking You like following them yelling at them. Yes Yeah. And it feels kind of awful in your body You know, it it's so almost like having a panic attack. The breathing is more shallow and more rapid. and It really feels like There's no way to win here. you know. I mean, you just have to escape Yes I can see that And you're escaping your body or the room That's right. That was super helpful Let's dig into each of the four horsemen and start with criticism. Okay. How is criticism defined in the research and I'd love to have you role play. Sure. A example. teach us how we can shift out of it Okay when we're in the middle of it. Let me just mention that the shifting that you are pointing out, which is very astute, is what we call repair. Okay. so making a repair during conversation is a great way to step aside from those four horsemen and make the conversation flow better. Okay. Okay So Again, I think the definition of it would be blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner That's what it. Let me start. Okay, go ahead. I've been meaning to talk to you because I think that I have something to teach you You know what I mean? Well, no, I noticed that, you know, you kind of get upset when the house is in some kind of disarray And I don't have that problem, you know, I can concentrate really well, you know whatever's going on around me. So I can kind of teach you to focus your mind more because I think your mind is kind of Um Weak, You know, I think your mind is not think strong. mind is weak Yeah. I think you have a weak mind And I can help you honey strengthen your mind. Better great Not as much as I am. You did I don't have a weak mind What am I talking about? Well, I'm just trying to be helpful to you You know, I'm trying I'm trying to help you strengthen your mind So it's more like my mind. I tell you what, go help The dog Okay, not me So that's criticism All right, gotot it. Let's show the antidote for each Yeah, So how do I do that? I gonna So I'll make a repair. Okay, Okaykay. Okaykay. so why don't you pick up you know, like I was saying, you know, I really can help you focus your mind better and be much more like me. Yeah. honey. Yeah I need to tell you, I'm really feeling defensive right now You I don't want to be defensive, but I feel that way The way that you're describing me feels to me like a put down Can you say what you want to say in different words Um, Well, okay, um I think it'd be great if Even when there were a lot of books around and papers around You were okay with that. You didn't get upset T Call order. Yeah Well Tell you what? I hear you and I know that I probably come across as an ng sometimes. Yeah. I'm sure I do I would say that, yeah. Yeah, I bet you would Um, but You know, I think I can spend some of the time. feeling comfortable with everything scattered around. E I think you probably know me well enough to understand that When my environment feels chaotic just to me. It may not be to you, but it is to me. then I get all discombobulated inside. I feel really disorganized. And so All the papers and so on contribute, unfortunately to my having that feeling. I wish I wasn't like that, but I am Be I think that a house sught would be a little bit messy to be comfortable. Yeah, I know you Yeah. My mom used to clean Can the place to with an inch of its life, you know? I love your mom. And she put plastic on all the furniture. She was crazy. Yeah. that's true. I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. well, you don't have to sit on plastic, okay? It's okay. Yeah. All right. Beautiful. And I saw you repaired by using eye That's right. I feel. That's right I feel defensive. So when you're getting cricized saying, I feel defensive, right? Inead of going defensive. Right, right? Or instead of counter attacking. Yes, or stop criticizing me. Yeah. exactly. I feel defensive. That the prepare for criticism. Yep, got it Beautiful On that note, how about we take a quick break And let's let our sponsors share a few words with you and don't go anywhere Coming up The Gotms are going to talk about what you need to start doing to turn toward your partner and the mistakes that you are making in the microoments that are pushing your partner away. We can fix that, and the Gotmans will show you how when we return to stay with me. G a feeling when your brain is fried. You have like twelve irritating tasks you don't care about But you have to do them anyway That's where I've been lately. The administrative stuff was eating up half my day. So I've been using Microsoft Copilot as my extra set of hands. It's like having your own personal assistant That's why Microsoft Copilot is my favorite AI tool Last week, I had to send this long, overly complicated email about scheduling and travel, the kind of thing that takes up way too much energy for what it is. I open Copilot, talk to it out loud while I was walking around my kitchen and co pilot turned it into a clean professional draft. It was amazing. And because my brain wasn't fried, I had the energy to sit down and eat dinner with Chris. without feeling mentally wiped That's the whole point for me Microsoft C pilot clears the clutter So I can be more present for the moments that matter That's why I'm using it. If you want to try it for yourself, visit microsoft. com backslash Mel Robins to download the C pilot app. Get started with C pilot today for free and see how handing off the small stuff gives you more energy for the moments that matter. 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Just head to trumed. com slash ultra to check your eligibility And it may save you an average of thirty percent. TrueMed is for quQalified customers HSA FSA tax savings Vy. Experience Ultra and stay out there. at ultrarunning. com That's A L T R A rununning d. com. Folks, you know I cut to the chase and when it comes to women's health, AzO does the same thing. They don't dance around issues like burning, itching and yep Odor As the number one doctor recommended OTC brand for urinary pain relief and vaginal health, they get right to it. No cutesie talk, just the facts. And whether urinary or vaginal, AzO helps you handle it With science backed relief and support, they've been there for over thirty years. Visit azoroducts dot com for product details, usage instructions, and safety information Welcome back it's your buddy Mel Robins, And today, you and I are here with the world's leading experts on relationships, doror John and dor. Julie Gotman. I told you would fall in love with them. Aren't you in love with him? I know I am. All right, I'm so glad we're back. Let's just jump right back in Let's move on to contempt. Okay. You want to define that one, H? Yeah, Contempt has this air of superiority You know, I'm better than you Can you show us what contempt looks and sounds like and how is different criticism. You can't do anything right, can you? What are you talking about I mean, you know, even when you go shopping, you spend too much money you know, you spend too much money on clothes. So, you know You know, so why? Well, we're trying to save for a down payment on a house And you're ruining the whole thing You just dispin. I'm ruining the whole R Dare you? I mean you just went out and bought a porsche for God's skes and I I need that for my work. I need that. I I wouldn't spend it if I didn't need it for my work to take it back I need to take it back. Okay. so that's one example. So it's judgment But place of superiority. What about the eye rolling and they like Well, I was thinking of an example that one of our ist talked about seeing this couple and She was being contemptuous and he said Do you think you're better than me And she said, better than I Oh Boom Wow, Isn't that a killer Correct their grammar. That's a great way to be contemptionist I have a couple in my life that's uncomfortable to be around because as one person's talking, the other one is like rolling their eyes. That's right. As they leave the room, they complain about them and Why is contempt the most Cy And let's start there, why? It really it's really a murder attempt at the person's sense of self. And the Jewish Talmud talks about it H murder You know, you're destroying the other person's sense of self And you're saying, you are worthless and That's the worst attack It's not just something you do that I don't like, but I don't like you I value you. I call it character assassination 's what it is. And do people that are contemptuous actually are they able to recognize it? Uh not always Usually the listener is the one who recognizes it, you know the other person usually has a pretty heavy sense of entitlement that they deserve to say that. But let me also add something about why it's so destructive. that You know, a lot of people don't really think about and acknowledge, but none of us got parented perfectly None of us got taught with absolute appreciation in school So all of us have at base, at least a part of ourselves that's insecure that needs to be loved, that needs to be cared about And some people like to say that that's immature Or, you know, you're just not a grown up And I would like to say to them, No, that's wrong We all have that inside ourselves. We don't lose that. core of insecurity And the need too be looked at with care, with love, with understanding to be spoken to with respect. Even admiration.. None of us lose that. We just add layers on top of it as we grow older. but it's still inside there and it can still get if somebody expresses content That makes a lot of sense. So if you're the one that's getting stepped on and demeaned and interrupted and corrected by your partner, how do you repair this? Okay So Here's how I would repair it. Let's say he's just been contemptuous So You know, John? There's no way that I can hear what you're saying right now because I feel so insulted byy what you're saying. I don't know if that's your intention or not I feel like shrinking away. I want to just disappear. I don't want that. because it reallyally, I feel really hurt. by what you're saying So I wish you would flip What you just said on its head. and tell me what you do want. Yeah or you do like, rather then this wave of negativity I'm feel like I'm judging you. Yeah. ye That's what it looks like And when you get somebody that says, I am judging you Now you're like realizing, okay. Okaykay, well, that's okay. So let's say I am, you know, I'm just trying to give you feedback. Honey The effect of the feedback and the way that you're giving it to me pushes me away makes me want to run away from you because it hurts so much can hear if you're telling me what you do want, not what you don't Okay what you don't like Like amazingly helpful. I love the I feel insulted I feel hurt 'causeuse what ends up happening when it's you that is getting stepped on is you tend to flood. That's right. That's right Yes, That's right Yeah respect is as important as affection. is as important as infection. Yeah Eespecially for women, I think You know today, Women need to feel. that their partner values and respects them and as much as they respect anybody So one of my New Year's resolutions was Let me try to treat Julie with the kind of respect that I treated my father with I had to work on that and become self aware of ways in which I was not communicating respect. For example, it takes her longer to get ready than it does me So you know, I would get in the car and wait for her. and while I was in the car, I was saying, what the heck, why does it take job? You know, By the time She came out to the car. I had worked myself into a frenzy of anger about this thing. and You know, instead, I sat in the car and said, you know, she There's a lot of really important stuff that she sees that I don't see at all And she needs to get those things done before she feels ready to leave the house. So I think I'll just read my novel And whenver she comes out, you know? This was an issue in our marriage too. Yeah. Chris would be sitting in the pickup in the driveway Running. And I'm still putting my makeup on and then I'm running around the house looking for my keys because I forgot that he's driving And when I would then get in the car, he would be really frustrated. Yeah. I'd get an earfulull about it and now I try a little harder And he's usually listening to an audioobook when I get at a p truck that's been running. For eleven minutes. I've shavave like four minutes off. He is the best. The third horseman of the apocalypse of your relationship is defensiveness. What is defensiveness and Why is it so automatic, you know? Like it's just like you You just kind of feel like you should defend yourself. What should you do instead You know, that lawyer that I talked about, he was amazing at not getting defensive and his wife was criticizing him And he really was saying She's got an important point. I just don't know what it is. I have to I have to help her get to it, you know, But I'm so she she's got something she really wants to tell me that's important And he had that attitude very respectful, you know. and I think that's the attitude you've got to take. instead of saying I'm innocent, you know, I have I have no responsibility in this. I'm pretty much perfect If there's anybody defective, it's you That's a really bad attitude because you're not going to listen if you have that attitude. I would love to hear you guys role play. and if you could do an example where one of you which is the other one would either lose weight or take a little better care of themselves or You know, get a trainer or actually pick up the weights that we bought last year and use them. You know what I'm saying? And you know, and then the other ones because I think this is something that is boy. Yes. That's a hot issue. Yeah, it's a hot issue. Yeah Okay So let's say let's say you criticizeed me, you know Yeah for You know, having a tumming end. But you're really worried about my health. It's really ex.ight Yeah. Okay Oh, let's see John I need to talk to you about something. You know I know that you love sitting. and reading your books., especially your mathematic books. Y., which I can not understand one page of. Ty, I'm You know, you really, really, really should go to the gym more often. You really should. You're only going to the gym like once a month That's not going to do anything for your body That's, I mean You know, your body's starting to get a little kind of flabby or something. I mean just Billy is going out further and further. Well I think I'm fine You you think you're just? The thing that I'm worried about And this is true for both of us is that we're both getting older Right And you know, you've read all the newspaper articles about Being fit really adds years to your life Being healthy, exercising is one of the best things you can do. I just read this article about a guy who's a long distance runner and he had a heart attack while he was running And he was forty years old. So I don't think I don't think exercise is such a great thing. But honey a lot of these athletes are pretty stupid. Oh so What they found is that there was a heart defect It wasn't the running that caused it. it was the heart defect You don't think he overdid it? No, I don't think so. But if You don't exercise. I'm really afraid that you may suffer a heart attack Right? Yeah. I mean I don't want to lose you want to lose you And so I'm wondering, How can I support you going to the gym more often? or does that feel too controlling No, I think What if we went together loveove it Would you be willing to make the time? Yeah, if I can swim. Sure to sw Swimming is great. Yeah. swimming is great. I haven't been in a long time. You haven't? Yeah. You want to do it again? Yeah Well, yay. All right. That would be terrific. Okay. Okay. I'll work on it. Okay How do you tell someone It's not that you're worried about them, it's that you're losing interest in them Noo Okay, that's a good one Because I think the exercise thing is a big one Yeah. And I know you know, like really taking care of yourself and yes, there's the, I'm afraid something that's going to happen, but it's also like I actually and pulling away from you because I'm not proud to be with you or I am losing my attraction to you. Okay I have something I want to talk to you about that is super sensitive U oh I know. Let me get my notebook. You better get your notebook. And let me preface it Let me preface it by saying I adore you I love you so, so, so much. It's nice to hear. You is a butt hereere comes the sensitive part I don't know exactly what's happening but as you've been gaining weight H becoming more of a sphere. instead of trying My libido is going down my sexual interest is declining. that sucks Well, it does because I love you and I really, really want to express that physically to you att the same time I really, really loved it When you were working out and I could feel the muscles in your back, in your shoulders, your arms, it felt really wonderful So I wrote down Lose weight and get more sex That's a possibility. All right. Okaykay What do you think? Yeah. Would you like that? Would you like to sex Be Yeah. About twenty pounds melted away I betch of my sexual interest. You go get thatsound reat idea. Yeah J. I'm sorry, I'm laughing, but you two are adorable and And we have all been in a relationship like that The fourourth horseman That's going to destroy your relationship potentially is stonewalling. rightight. We've talked a little bit about it, but just so we're clear about what it is Okay You know, we actually didn't understand it when we first saw it And we brought man back in and said What was going through your mind right there? So we got this sort of internal monologue that guys were going through and they really We're saying This is heleless I just got a I gott to endure this I got to get through this And Don't say anything because whatever you say, you're going to make it worse and You know, I'm just gonna go get a beer and watch the game. You know, and not think about this Let me add here That's what they were thinking you know, and it was Sad, you know, is really like I'm overwhelmed, you know, I'm in a war zone Mhm you know And there there aren't any shelters. Can you give us a example of what this sort of sounds like in a relationship Uh, when when you know, the man or typically the guy, but often it can be the woman. Can be. Yeah. Yeah. fifteen percent of the time It was a woman's stombine Well let's Let's do you stonewall Okay. Yeah Uh So I don't understand why you haven't paid the bills I mean Bills have got to be paid. Why aren't you paying the bills, man? They're sitting there on the table. This is not a big deal. It just is. I don't want to talk about this. John, it's a huge deal. You're gonna ruin our credit if you don't pay the bills Would you please pay the bills So what are you doing You're pretending I don't exist You're just blocking me out Honey Pay the frigin bills. What's the big deal That's what it looked like because we've all seen it and experienced it. and if you were listening and not watching this episode as Julie was, you know Basically telling him what to do and criticizing him. and then the huff at the end is contempt. Yes, right? Wite that exclamation point of All You, John, crossed your arms and looked down and looked away and it is this act of like there's nothing to do. I just need to endure this until she shuts up. And that's the only option here. Yeah. and also If I say anything It'll get worse. Yes. It's bad now, but if I say anything I'll make it worse How the heck do you repair something like that if you're the stonewaller and you've got somebody who's critical of you. Okay. Like can the stonewaller like can you teach a stonewaller to repair Be a stonewaller does not trust that it's going to get better if I say anything. Okay, don't forget. yes, that what goes along with stonewalling is a heart rate over a hundred beats a minute Oh Waler it looks like you're c Yes, it does, but because John and Bob had their couples hooked up to physiology that measured heart rate We saw those heart rates like through the ceiling hundred forty, one hundred and fifty and second. seconds before they started stonewalling. I never, ever, ever looked at stonewalling. has someomebody who's panicked and overwhelmed. rightight. I've always seen this as a power play. Yes. that you're denying me attention and you are trying to just block me out as a way to control me Exact Eactly. And that is wrong. Stonewalling is an attempt to self soothe. Going inside Okay She can't touch me when I watch the game. so the game starts in ten minutes. I'm going go watch the game I'll have a beer come down. Yeah. So let me tell now Let me tell you, the antidote is it's not saying something exactly Only antidote is to do something to calm your physiology down Okay. So we've seen the antidote. It is tellell your partner you need to take a break that you're flooded You need to take a break and you tell your partner when you will come back to continue the conversation and typically the minimum takes is twenty to thirty minutes The most would be twenty four hours.. What do you do during the break, you do not think about the fight Because if you keep thinking about the fight and, oh, I should say this one I go back You'll stay flooded Because you're still hooked into the fight That is elevating your heart rate You need to do something else like reading a book. reading a magazine. Watching TV, playing with the puppy, even going for a run is fine taking a walk Do your email. somethingomething that takes your mind off fight so that Th stress hormones can metabolize out of your body You see. So And it's especially hard for guys. I would imagine. becausecause you know, Bob Lvinston did a study Startle You know, you have a gun blank gun go off behind somebody Women feel fear Men feel a desire to get even Get angry, get angry, get even with the experiment. They feel You know ang rage about having been startled And so that maintains the physiological arousal. And it was probably adaptive in our you know, ancestors time to stay physiologically aroused when you are hunting or protecting the tribe During that conversation with your lover It's not helpful to stay physiologically aroused. It's counterproductive. Can't listen, right So it's a challenge for men during the break to really distract themselves and do something entirely different. big breakthrough is to utter the words. I am emotionally down or I'm emotional. I'm bl. I'm fing just I'm flooded I'm flooded. I'm flooded. I need to take a break And, you know, the good thing about saying, I'll be back in thirty minutes is that A lot of people, when you say, I'm going to go take a break and they go The other person feels rejected. thinks Oh, great, we're never going to get back to this topic. We're never going to solve this. We're never going to talk about it. R So saying Let's come back in a half an hour when I'm calmer and let's try again. makes a huge difference It makes a lot of sense. Why is Can we just move on Why is that one of the biggest mistakes? you can make after a blob Fooding, you mean? can we just saying that canan we just move on Let's not talk about this. Let's not talk about this. Oh God, that's so terrible. Well, the problem in the relationship when you say, let's just not talk about this anymore It's another way of saying Whatever you're thinking isn't important. So let's just drop it. You're not important. What a message, right It's a terrible message it's tell you don't do it. Yes. That's I that is You're absolutely right. And then there's a loss of trust. Right Which is really damaging to the relationship. Right can't trust you to really keep your promises Be there for me O be there for me. Yeah Let's talk about turning toward each other. so important so important. So that's something that that one of my graduate students, Janice Dryver really noticed in the apartment lab. There'd be these small moments when one person would try to get their partner's attention or interest or a conversation or show them something they were reading. And the cameras turned to the other person. and We recorded the response And they either responded, you know or turn toward, we called it, or they didn't respond at all, turning away or they responded irritably turning against and What Janny discovered was that When you look Back at the couples who divorced. S years earlier average percent of turning toward their partners Bids for connection was thirty three percent And the couples who were still married Look six years earlier Their average is eighty six percent Wow, R than thirty three percent. So these small moments are really important Plus, she also discovered The secret having a sense of humor during conflict was having a lot of history of turning toward building an emotional bank account cononnecting. people had a sense of humor about themselves during conflict. I want to make sure that as you were listening to John say that that you got the very helpful distinction of the three things that people do in those microoments And obviously what we want to learn to do right is turn toward one another. R But the thing that a lot of people do is you either turn away or you turn against. Right, Right. And I think it's a very useful tool to ask yourself I turning against them when they're trying to hold my hand or engage in a conversation or tell about their day Am I turning away from them So what turning away means, a lot of people misinterpret that They think it means, oh, you turn your body away No, it doesn't at all means you completely ignore what they've said Oh, you ignore it So let's say I'm reading a book And John calls to me from the kitchen Julie. reading the book. He says again Honey, do you know where the big fork is as if he never said anything. That's turning away. turnurning against B Would you stop interrupting me? I'm trying to read M That's the hostility, you see that comes in turning against. They're really small moments, but probability person will rebid. after their partnerers turned away is twenty two percent So only twenty two percent of the time do they say Honey Where's the fork or, you know, listen to this. they They kind of crumple a little bit partner turns away. Well, of course. Yeah. You know what it reminds me of? You know what a sea anemoneone looks like? You know, it's this little circle of a being in the water in the ocean that has little tiny fingers and when it's relaxed, all those fingers