Navigating Toxic Environments and Work Boundaries

Hey, it's friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robins podcast Let's you a serious question What would change in your career If you stopped waiting for someone else to see your potential and you stood up and started claiming your power I wanted to ask you this because a couple of weeks ago, I put up a poll online ust asking more than thirty million followers a few questions about work and career Oh my gosh, I got the results And the first thing I thought was, oh, we need to talk Because here's what you said. You are burned out hired to fight for what you want at work counting yourself out before you even try And you're saying, you're not even sure what you want next You're having trouble setting boundaries Well, let me tell you something. called in a heavy hitter because you deserve to get some coaching right now Today, you are going to spend time with one of the most successful women on Wall Street of all time She has a passion for mentoring and she flew here to our Boston studios for one reason coach and mentor you. Her name is Carla Harris and she's going to tell you You are not behind It is never too late. She iss going to acknowledge that yes, you may feel very tired You may be burnt out. And yes, it is true. the pace of change right now is overwhelming and it is a very difficult job market Carl is going to tell you the truth. There is essential information and coaching that you need at this exact moment of extraordinary change. She will tell you now right now is the time to recognize this change. seeee the opportunity and what she's going to teach you today is going to change the trajectory of your career for the next ten years The fact that you are taking time to listen to this episode, she will tell you proves that you are powerful and you are capable With the right tools, the right mindset, you can design what you want out of your career, starting exactly where you are right now Carla Harris is here to reveal the mistakes you need to avoid and exactly what to do To change your career, get paid what you deserve, stop playing small, build real confidence, and start making decisions like someone who expects to win Did you know that you can buy your car completely online on Auto Trader Really Just go to autorader. com and get picky Search through dealers listings for the makeake model color, all the features that matter Then all you need to do is drop in your info and you'll only see cars that fit your budget Really Once you find the one, do the whole deal online and either pick the car up at the dealership or have it delivered right to your driveway. Auto trrader, buy your car online Really? Here's one thing you might not know. Did you know that your vagina has its very own microbiome? And when it's off, you notice Things don't feel or smell, right? New Azo vaginal probiotic miniews have a probiotic blend made just for women that help keep a healthy bacterial balance, which keeps yeast and odor in check. And they're super easy to take and delicious. which makes adding Azo vaginal probiotic mini chews to your routine kind of a no brainer. Visit azoroducts. com for product details, usage instructions, and safety information. Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robins Podcast. Holy cow, have you hit play on an extraordinary episode? I'm so glad that you're here because it's always an honor to spend this time together. And if you're new or somebody shared this episode with you, I just want to take a moment before we jump in and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family Today You are getting a once in a lifetime opportunity to learn from and be coached by Carla Harris who is one of the most successful and respected women of all time on Wall Street. Carla graduated from both Harvard and Harvard Business School at the top of her class. She was a vice chairman at Morgan Stanley, where she has spent more than thirty years. She chairs the National Women's Business Council and also serves on the executive boards of so many companies, including Walmart M life She is repeatedly recognized as a top power player in business and finance Carla has won so many awards. I don't even have time to list them because I want to jump into the coaching so you get to maximize your time with her. If you could wave a magic wand and your dream career sponsor and mentor could show up Here she is Please help me welcome the extraordinary Carl Hris to the Mel Robbins podcast. Thank you.'re happy to here Malel. Thanks for having me. Well, I know how busy you are. and so I really appreciate you showing up and spending some time and service of the person who is with us right now And I would love to just start by having you speak directly to person who's listening or watching right now and just share a little bit about what could possibly change about their life or their career If they lean in and take to heart everything that you're about to teach us. Yes, well, I'd like you to know that you have extraordinary power. That's why you're even here today. The other thing that I want to say is that I'm excited about the time that we're in because it is an unprecedented time and nobody has the rule books. In fact, all the rules are being rewritten. And whenever we are in this kind of environment, each of us have an opportunity to put our imprimature on what's happening or what we'd like to see happen And this is the moment where you have to remind yourself, this is not the time to lay back and quote see what's going to happen. This is not the time to be dictated to when you have the opportunity to design. So does I Carla You showed up to play. I mean you are you are ready to go and you know what's amazing about you is you're not only one of the most powerful and respected executives and advisers to some of the biggest brands in the world Tod, you are going to put on your mentor and your coach hat. And I love the distinction you already just said. There is a difference between sitting back and letting what I'm not even going to say it as poetic as you did. the design versus the Yes, it's not the time to be dictated to. it's the time to design because Wh Wh has the credentials in this moment to you. Nobody knows what's going on. Innovation is going faster than it has ever happened. So nobody has the playbook So you get an opportunity to play in a way that you've never had an opportunity to play before. Oh, my gosh. You're right. You're absolutely right. when there is no playbook. And there are no rules Anybody can play the game. That's right. And you can also create how you want the game to be played. That's right. You get to define the game. Wow I love how excited you are about this because right now There is so much fear And I want you to imagine There's a woman that's listening thinking, okay, I get it, I get it. I know I need to design. I know, but Carla, I am behind I am ired And I just, I don't even know if I have what it takes to pivot and to grab the playbook and to change my career What do you want to understand about this exact moment and her power in this moment. Yes. let me answer them specifically. First of all If you are feeling tired, then that is certainly your bell, your red flag that says,h, I haven't been taking care of myself and giving myself enough rest. And trust me, I'm the girl who had no respect for sleep for the first twenty, thirty years of my career. I could be the all night queen. I could do this, I could do that But now I understand that that rest is when your body has a chance to rejuvenate, not just your organs, your heart, your liver, your kidney, but more importantly your brain. And that's the thing that really drives you. So finding an opportunity to get some rest, at least seven hours. If you can't do eight, you can't do nine, but don't skimp on six. try o go for the seven. So A get some rest. and I will tell you that I realize what a new different woman I am after seven hours of sleep. Have a whole different perspective. It will change your lens. The second point, I'm behind. let me help you reframe that. You are exactly where you're supposed to be to have the epiphany that you are having right now that you can put your foot on the gas and get more. It is simply a decision 's just a decision. You can say, I'm not cool with where I am right now. So guess what? I'm going to change it. Understanding that you have the power to change it. Wh do I say that? You already have the smarts, you have the training, you've read about it, you've gone to school. You already have the experience And if it's not the intellect or the experience that can change where you are, it's your network. It somebody in your world that has been there, done that and is more than willing to share that experience with you so that you can learn from that and then put your foot on the gas. There have been many times in my life when I felt like I was quote behind time I had that epiphany, that was the time that I also realized that it was my decision to change it. I had made a decision either to let it happen to me So I had abdicated my power or I had made a decision to let one thing that knocked me down keep me down longer than it should have. And so if I could make those decisions I could make a different decision That no mas, I'm not going to do this anymore And once you make that decision, you start realizing that there are things that are already at your disposal that you can move to dig out of that hole. And as I'm a big fan of saying, you take one step, the good Lord will take two. And if that doesn't happen to be your belief, you take one step and you can put the next foot in front of the other and the next foot in front of the other. and before you know it, You are on your way. So do not despair. This is your epiphany moment Now go get them I love that that despair you can flip into a wake up. thinking about the fact that you just are like, okay, I'm feeling these things, but that's the epiphany that I need to change. becausecause if I change nothing Nothing changed. That's right. And you ask yourself, Mel You say, how did I get here? That's one of my favorite things. If I find I'm down in the hole, I go wait, stop How did you get here? Let's think about the series of decisions and it's not to beat yourself up, which obviously as women, we're pretty good at doing that. It's not to beat yourself up. It's to peel the onion so you understand how you got there And then you can say, oh, this time if this happens, I'll make a different decision. Or you know what? That's what I learned from that situation. And then you realize you have what it takes from that experience to now get right back out of that hole andron. You said, Carla, all the rules are being rewritten. Innovation is going faster than it has ever happened, so nobody has the playbook you get an opportunity to play in a way that you've never had an opportunity to play before. So let's talk though about how you get an opportunity to play in a way that you've never been given before and that's whether your stay at home mom That's whether you've just been laid off. That's regardless of how old you are, if you're just graduating from college, that's for all of us. Absolutely Absolutely. And I have to tell you, I'll call this the meantime Valley ight the meantime valuly. What do you do in the meantime in the meanim because there's so much that's going on. But in these times, half the people are distracted, the other half are paralyzed So you have clear vision. There's nobody in your way. And here's why I say this is so very different than the eighties to nineties and the two thousands Back then, there was a certain way that you comped yourself if you were just starting in an organization. There was a certain routine that you had to go through in order to get trained. Many companies are not even training the way that they were training before. manyany companies are now going to be asking employees to train themselves. So now you're saying to yourself, well, if you're making all of these resources available to me what's going to be valued And many leaders don't know now what needs to be valued. How do you think about compensation now when we all have equal access to resources and equal access to being trained? So what differentiates person A from person B? Now you have an opportunity to find that, which you think is going to be valuable and sell it. Now you need to say at the end of the day, while we have data and a lot of our customers make decisions based on data, people are making people decisions. Are you going to deliver for me? So my ability to instigate and retain and grow a relationship has to be valued in this organization. And let me tell you how I do that So now you get to say, here's what I think is important. Let me try this. I'm so confident about this. giveive me a month, thirty days months on this. And if I'm wrong, then you can take me back down to where where we think, but this is why I think this is going to work becausecause companies are going to value people who have clarity, people who are willing to take risk peopleople who can think out of the box now, we all have access to the same information, then what's going to differentiate you is an idea that hasn't been tried before, but more importantly, the courage to go try it. Yes. That person who's showing that they're willing to take a risk. You know what? I see in what you're explaining and let's see if hearing this correctly One of the things that I think will be one of the most valuable and coveted skills beyond relationship building beyond emotional intelligence is the ability to solve problems or to find a better way and bring it to the person you work for And you talk about not being a taker. And to me, that is a habit of sitting back, waiting to be told what to do And the amount of change is so overwhelming that the opportunity that it creates when everybody has access to the same tools is instead of complaining with your colleagues or complaining to your family about how stupid work is or how frustrating it is or stressful it is, if you can find a better way And you can then present it and do it, not talk about it, do it You are indispensable. That's exactly right. And sometimes Mel, you just do it You don't ask for permission. As one of my good friends told me many, many years ago, it's so much easier to beg for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. And here's the piece that I add to that. Sometimes the person you're asking for permission, you just empowered them They don't even have the power to tell you no, but they do now because you ask them. Yes. Just go do the thing. Yes. And if you're wrong, then oh meail, couoopa, I'm so sorry. Let somebody slap your wrist, but you've already had the experience now What else do you see as the opportunity of this moment? Because it is easy to get paralyzed by I don't know how you use ARa. The economy is terrible and it is People are getting laid off. This is the worst economy that graduates can graduate. And a lot of that is true The cost of living is through the roof. How do you still spot the opportunity? Yes. And look at the data that we've had for the last twenty years. There are companies now that people aspire to work for that didn't exist twenty years ago So remind yourself how much evolution has happened. So ask yourself Is there a skill that I want to learn right now? Is there something that I'd want to try? Maybe I want to be an entrepreneur. Maybe I'm not entrepreneurial material and I actually you know, I'm a good soldier, not necessarily a general at this point. I can't lead at this point, but I just want to learn under somebody that's really good. Start thinking about the things that again that would allow you to feel like you have filled your time and you filled your time productively. I'm going to take you back to the financial services crisis where people were getting laid off indiscriminately. What made me write my second book, strategized to win is I saw so many people trying to get in and They were not being successful because they were actually going off for the old playbook of trying to get into the thing that they thought they should do, not understanding the key success factors, not being able to connect the dots between what they really wanted to do, not being able to tell their story something really basic. And so now is another opportunity for you to think about that. And maybe again, you don't have the resources to start your own thing, but say, well, what are the five companies I'd like to work for And why do I want to work for those companies? Don't just take any job. takeake a job that you'll be able to tell a story about two years from now because this is going to change. This is going to pass. again, as a woman of a certain age, you do know that this too will pass. So the question is, what do you do in the meantime? which is why I call this the meantime family What are you doing in the meantime? Be it's got to go Right? And will you have sat there completely paralyzed and afraid Or will you have invested in yourself to learn a new skill, to try something new, to be able to say that I did this because of that And I'll tell you this quick story, Melt, when we went into the pandemic environment, march thirteenth, twenty twenty, that was my last trip I said, Oh twoo weeks can get back on my workout regiment because I'd already fallen off the horse at that point because I'm thking We're going to go back to work. had no idea that it was going to be a couple of years. Well That was march thirteenth, twenty twenty. By July one of twenty twenty one Let's see. I had lost twenty five pounds. I had launched my international speaking career. I had written the outline of my third book and I had adopted a new baby all in a year Right? Because I couldn't control The environment. I can only control what I did with the time. And that's the power of the moment that you're in now. If you've been laid off, you have the power of time. It's a gift It's a gift you wouldn't have had And it might be creating some tight economic circumstances, but what's the other thing that you might do right now. What's the thing you might learn so you're ready when the opportunity comes, You have two choices You can sit there and worry Be upset in the meantime or you can run One of the things Carla that you say is that there's two things that tend to derail a woman's career in midlife. What are those two things and how do we overcome them? Yeah, there are two things that I say hold all women back. fear and fatigue Fear and fatigue. Fear and fatigue. And in the early stages of your life, it is fear You're not sure what's coming next. You're not sure whether or not you have all the skills. You're not sure whether or not you're ready. You're not sure that if you show up in all your power, is that going to be okay or somebody not going to be comfortable with that? Fear, fear, fear Now as you get more senior, you've gotten over all of those milestones. Now it's fatiguue because in many cases, especially if you were building your career in the eighties, nineties, two thousands, twenty ten s, you were fighting every day Every day you were fighting your way up the ladder So now You are twenty years in, you're thirty years in and you're saying, I'm just tired. I won't do this anymore. I'm tired. I just don't want to do it. And you know what I find that's so ironic about that. So many women talk about the glass ceiling And they're right there. They can see through the ceiling But the reason they don't want to punch through is that they perceive that all of that effort that it took to get there the twenty, twenty five or thirty years that they're going to have to do that all over again to push through that ceiling. and here's the deal What it takes to push through that ceiling is a fraction a fraction, a small fraction of what you have already done Push the elbow, push the shoulder, even put your head up against it. It's going to crack doesn't take all of that effort. And if you're feeling fatigued, take the rest. And here's what I said to myself and what I've said to other women. You take two days off the world's not coming to an end You decide you're not going to do the rest of that to do list this afternoon. It's going to be all right Beuse you get to pick it up tomorrow when you've had a little rest and you're feeling really powerful and very energetic What do you say to the woman That's afraid Be I think sometimes the glass ceiling is one that has been put in place by society. or by the rungs in the ladder of the job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're pointing to your head. So let's talk about what the glass ceiling actually is. Yes Sometimes the glass ceiling is a ceiling that you put in your own mind. You've already convinced yourself that you won't be able to get to this role. You won't be able to get to this level because they won't let you or they will be in the way. And one of the things that I remind myself all of the time is that if you keep saying they, they, they they Th Carlly, you put yourself on the outside of your own success circle Who is they At the end of the day, you're supposed to be in the center of that circle And you're the one that's supposed to be pushing it And what I say to any person that is besieged with fear, it is one of my favorite sayings, Mel, and that is fear has no place in your success equation Anytime you approach anything in your life personally or professionally from a position of fear, you will always underpenetrate that opportunity. And we all have those moments So as I like to joke, anyime I feel that fear creeping up the back of my neck I remind myself of that old southern saying. Fear is just false evidence of things appear very real It's really not there Because at the end of the day You take a risk and you fail So what? Failure always brings you a gift and the gift is called experience Now you know how to do it better Now you know how to do it differently. Now you know how to do it successfully. And there are very few things as a woman of a certain age. There are very few things in life that are irreparable And if that thing is gone, that moment is gone, something else will be served up that will be even better because now you're ready for it And one thing I'd love to have you expand on just a little bit is that idea of they. Yeah. They won't like it. they won't hire me, they won't see my value. They, they they especially in this moment in time where everything is changing And there is opportunity to think about your career in a very different way. For somebody who's still thinking that another person, whether it's somebody hiring or it's a future boss, or it's the person you currently work for They have the power What do you want somebody who really is like, no, no, no, but cartless somebody else is hiring me Carla Somebody else promotes me, But Carla Like somebody else is right signing the signature on the paycheck. Yes How do you want us to think differently? Okay, so let me take each one of those and unpack it. Oh, I love that. Oh, Carla, they won't hire me. Well, remember that whenever you're going into an interview, you have the upper hand Why? Because the person on the other side of the table is the one that has a job to do that day. They have to bring a very good candidate back to their organization. They're the one with the pressure And there should be no question that they ask you about who you are that you can't answer So remember, you have one job when you go into any interview and that's to make that person feel that they're going to be making a big mistake if they don't choose you And how can you make them feel that way? When you sit in that chair, you need to understand the key success factors of that job What are the things that it takes to be exceptional? And if you've done your homework, you got a pretty good idea of what the key success factors are for that role. And when you're telling your story, you need to tell your story where that becomes pretty obvious that you can deliver on those things. And here's the thing Most people get deterred when they look at a job description that they want to apply for and they see that you need five years of experience or ten years or you need a master's in this. Whenever you're reading a job description that says required, I want you to read preferred. because there is always an exception to the rule And when you sit in that interview chair and you can communicate that you know what an A looks like In that role Now you're going to number one, you've already crossed one hurdle. You already told the person you know what it takes to do a great job. And then two, you need to talk about why you're so confident that you can deliver on that. And you will have greater than a seventy five percent chance of getting that role. Now the they around whether or not they're going to promote me One of the things you have to always remember is that it's not generally a singular decision withith respect to whether or not you're going to get promoted So one of the things that's important when you're in an environment is to make sure that you're building a lot of relationships so that you lower the probability that only one person can stand in your way. there happens to be one person that is confounding you and that's in your way thenen the strategy that I've always found effective is make that person the outlier Everybody else is saying, Oh, Mail is fabrous. Mail is wonderful. Oh Mel did a great job on this. and that one person who quote doesn't like you wants to say something negative, they will not. Because generally those kinds of people are insecure And they're not going to stand up against the crowd when everybody else saying, you're the best thing since sliced bread They're going to be quiet And then your promotion will therefore be crowdsourced. in that environment when everybody else is saying you're a superstar, there's no way that person's going to stand up and say, no, I don't think so I love that. When you said yes come too Boston and beyond the Melell Robins podcast. I will take off the executive hat. I will put on the mentor and the coach hat. We reached out to our forty million followers. And we got an avalanche of video questions. And so I'm going to play the first one now from Dominiica And I would love to have you take a listen and then as you give her advice, you're going to be giving us all advice I have a question U How do you rise again and again Not the first time, not the second time, not like how do you rise? the third time but genally, u I feel like you have nothing left I've rebuilt my life several times already. I'm very strong, I know it, but I'm just tired, so tired Dominka, what I would say to you is if you're feeling tired right now, give yourself some grace to get some rest It's really just that simple Take a day get some sleep. If it takes two Get some more sleep. I guarantee you, you're going to wake up feeling much more optimistic You're going to be reminded of your power You're going to be reminded of the fact that you did it before, you therefore will be able to do it again But here's something else that I want you to think about that's really important What do you want? Make sure that you are living your life and prosecuting your life around the things that are going to matter to you So early on in our lives, especially in our twenties and our thirties and our forties, we're prosecuting an agenda. Oh, I need to have a career, or I need to be successful in my career. or I need to go work at these three or four companies really being influenced by somebody else's report card never really stopping to ask ourselves, what's going to bring me joy? What's going to make me want to get up early out of the bed in the morning and just and just go for it. What would I do for free, although they better pay me whatever the market rate happens to be? and then start to build How you move through the world, how you split one step in front of the other around that thing And maybe that thing can't be your main thing right now. But if you're making space in your day to do some of that every day, you will get so much fuel as you prosecute the other stuff for now. And then over time, while it might be five percent of your day, it'll beome fifteen percent of your day. It'll become twenty five percent of your day. And then one day you're going to say to yourself Well, if that is making me so happy. And oh, by the way, it's also fulfilling some other things financially or economically Th why don't I try to do some more of that And let me figure out how I do some more of That And just the idea that you are planning towards that will give you the energy that you need And that's how you keep getting up over and over again because you keep redefining What is important in your life Because what's important at twenty is very different than what's important at forty. and it's definitely different than what's important at sixty. Not that I'm there yet One of the things that I noticed and picked up on is the fatigue that I heard in that question. of I've had to Start over I've had to pick myself back up I have done it once, I have done it twice. I have done it a third time. I do not know if I have it inside me again. and, you know, if I look at poll from our audience, we asked, you know, kind of where are you right now in your life and in work fifty eight percent of the people who responded said they're either burnt out and regrouping. where they're trying to reenter the workforce And if I add in the folks that are working and want to career change, eighty four percent of people who responded are looking at or wanting to reinvent myself again, pick myself up again. Can you just speak to that fatigue of I thought I would be somewhere else by now. I thought I wouldn't have to rebuild right now. How do you change your mindset from that like u Cion to Well, I've always figured it out. I guess I can do it again. Do you know what I'm saying? I do understand what you're saying. And so I'm going ask That we changeed some words. Okay. becausecause this concept of I'm there or I got there or I've arrived, which was a concept that we talked a lot about in the eighties and the nineties and the early two thousands. But what is so clear to me now is that there's not really this concept of arriving. We should be thinking about this concept of evolving. Every day that we wake up every morning and we can breathe and we're on this side, as they say of the world, that you should be thinking about, I'm involving I'm growing So the fact that you're thinking, oh, gosh, I got to do this again, I got to do this again. If you think about it in the sphere of I'm continuing to evolve, I'm continuing to grow. The good news here is that you have more data today than you had thirty years ago about your ability continue to evolve or if I use the old language, your ability to do it all over again. And you didn't have that data when you were twenty. you didn't have it at thirty, you didn't have it at forty. So that alone should give you some confidence that you can keep it rolling The most important thing is to stop and say, but what is it now? And I will tell you, Mel that that's the hardest question for people Because again, in your twenties and thirties, I would argue that you're really prosecuting somebody else's agenda Now all of a sudden you get to your forties and you say, u, This is not really doing it for me or I don't really have a personal life or Oh man, I sure would like to have some kids. whatever. you start to think about these things, but for the first time now, You got to figure out what you want to do. And that is a scary question for a lot of people So they default and you keep going Just keep going Right? now You get to fifty and you know better You're a lot wiser. But now it takes the courage. to say I don't really would know I want to do. How I don't even know where to start? So You keep going Right? until you hit the wall and you go, I know life's got to be better than this. What I can't do it anymore So now, it's time that you have the courage. to say, yeah, yeah, it's all about me. And now let me deconstruct this. And what I tell people and when you're trying to figure out what you want to do, take a blank sheet of paper, look at all of your experiences and say, what did I like about all of that Was there anything in any of these roles that I really liked? Was it speaking directly with people? Was it working on a team? Was it actually working by myself? Was it creating something out of nothing? Was it just executing? Like I'm a great executor. Was it just executing What did I like And then once you figure out what you liked out of all of those experience, the second sheet of paper, now you say What kind of people did I really enjoy working with? Did I enjoy working with people who were smarter than I was? or oh man, maybe I wanted to be the smartest person in the room. Is that really smart? right? So now you look at the context where you flew before or that you really enjoyed it. and maybe you never flew, but you just like to be in it because you like absorbing all of it Now I'm going to tell you in a third sheet of paper, design a job design a job. How do you do that? Well, now you know what you like to do You know the context that you like to work in You know, the kind of people that you want to be around You know a little bit about yourself, where you thrive, where you don't So now I'm going to say, just give me some bullet points. Give me three, five bullet points It something that you'd really like to do and assume that money is no object. I will pay you whatever you want to get paid Now let's see what that job description looks like. Now you can sit down with a friend, a mentor sponsor and you say I don't really know what the job is, but here's the content. And that's what we should be focusing on is the content of the job, not the job title There's so many people who focus on the job title. I'm going to tell you to look at the content. Let me give you an example I've used to have graduate school students say to me, well, I want to do M andA. Why do you want to do merges and acquisitions? I want to do merges and acquisitions because I want to know how to value companies I want to know how to buy and sell company if really how to value company as well You can learn how to value companies if you're in equity research. That's what they have to do. They have to value one company over the other and then they have to write about why this company ought to have a better stock price than that one. Oh, o, they value companies in credit because you got to figure out if somebody is going to be an A or triple B, but you got to value it. So now I've taken you from one job Merges an acquisition to three. because we're focused on the content So if you focus on the content of the job, you will find that there are lots of roles where that content is common and that you might really enjoy. But you get to design it So often we get so focused, as you said, on a role. Yeah that we fail to ask ourselves why is it that role So I'm going give you an example of when I had the aha moment I was a freshman. All my friends, all the cool kids were going to organic chemistry in the sophomore year, but it was freshman year where we had to declare the mjors So I'll go see the freshman Dan. And I say, I want to take organic chemistry next year and he said, Well, I said, Well, you know want to preserve some optionality. I might want to be a doctor You sure you want to be a doctor? I said, Well, I can be I can be a doctor. He said, yeah, but Why would you want to ask it? Be that can be Because again, I'm negatively motivated. So you tell me I can't do something, I'm all over it. So he's now questioning whether or not I'm, No, I could be a doctor. He said, Well, let me try this again What are you read for fun I'm a freshman eighteen I said, I like reading Ebony and Jed and Essence and you know, I'll read Fortune or Business weeek was hot then. He said Hm Well, do you know if you're going to be a doctor? you have to read science journals for fun Do you read any science journals? And I was like, u No, uh no I was all enamored because this was obviously a profession that your parents and anybody else would be proud of, your a doctor. And my cool kids, smart friends were thinking about doing that. So Maybe I should. And so even today, and that's been over forty years ago I listened to professionals say, Well, I want to be so and so. I said, tellell me why Well, I did And then we can't go any further. And I said, let me help you with something You can Do anything So it's not about what you could do Tell me what you want to do. And that's how I know it's such a tough thing for people to get to because most of us haven't thought about that for a long time, if ever And so you got to free yourself of this. I can, I can. Yeahah, you can. What do you wantna? What's the wantna Now I wna make sure that as you're listening You do not let that life changing tool just slip past you So if you're sitting there like a lot of us get to at various moments in our life, you're like, well, I'm not sure what I should do next or I'm trying to reinvent myself or I hate what I do, but I don't know what to do next You, Carla just laid out that a lot of us make a major mistake And we ask ourselves, well, what could I do There's another layer to the cod, which is, well, what should How be you doing And then the third one is though because you're saying I want I want you to ask yourself, not what you could, what you should But what I want to do And it's a hard question to answer becausecause you have to suspend all excuses all of the negative conditioning from your lifetime And you must give yourself permission to imagine something that you have withheld from yourself which is the thing you desire. the thing you think you would like And those three buckets could, should, want That's a tool. that will allow you to analyze the mistakes that you might make and the thing that you could head towards. What's what's what you react you wouldn't should. you was like When you said should, it hit me because that is a little bit of what I'm going to call the disease that I think Millennials and Zers have right now They are so preoccupied with what's my purpose What should I be doing? And yesterday, just yesterday, a young man heard me speak and he caught me as I was walking out of the building. and he said, I'm really trying to work this out. here's where I am in my life. You know, what should I be doing now? And I laughed and I had the same reaction that I just had with you and that is I said, It's not what you should be doing I don't want you to think about your purpose. I know you're thinking because he clearly was a zer. I said, I don' know you're thinking about your purpose now But let me tell you in my view the way purpose is defined is by you're collecting a lot of different experiences. And through those experiences, something is going to hit you. And you're gonna to say, Ah but I like this Well, let me get a little more of that. Well I like this and oh, by the way, I'm really good at it. Oh, by the way, it doesn't take a lot of effort for me. I don't have to do a lot of prep. I don't have to invest. I don't have to take five courses. kind of just can do this thing. There it is And especially if you can do that thing in service of others becausecause I believe purpose is tied inextricably to what you're giving to other people. because that's how you get it And you could see, I was so pleased, Mel, because you could see his eyes opened up and he's like, o yeah You can stop worrying. about this thing. And you are so right, which is why I laid out the blank sheets of paper. You are right. The could, the should, the want, And what I loved about the way you said that was that underscored Everybody has power. And it is within your power And I'm going to use your words to give yourself permission to do the thing. spend an hour, a day, a week. thinking about what would bring you joy to get up every morning and go do. What a radical thing I mean, because if you really stop and think about it, you gave every year of your life to what you do and should do Imagine giving your future to the things you actually want to do and then figuring out how to go do that. Yes What do you wish women over forty knew about themselves and their careers That your voice is powerful. You don't have to be a taker in your career. What does a taker mean? A taker means somebody's telling you, okay, you should go to this role. You should go to that role, or you know, you cant do this or you can't do that. There's one person that should drive your career and that's you So you should be asking yourself, where do I want to go next? And let me make sure that I understand what the key success factors are in this new seat Let me make sure that I already have those skills and those experiences. And if I don't have them, let me be intentional over the next six months about making sure that I close the gaps that I perceive that I have and make sure that you're talking to people about what it looks like to be successful, so that you're not just defining that in your own mind, you're actually getting some data And now you're going to have to tell somebody that you're interested in that role And you tell them why you think you'd be great at that role. So when they tell you no, they have to tell you why Carla I love you. I love how you communicate and teach. And what I also love is that every single thing that you do comes with specific instructions that we can use as tools Now I have a lot of questions that I wna ask you about how to get a raise, how to nail an interview, all kinds of things we're gonna dig into. But I wanna take a quick pause so we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors. And don't you dare go anywhere because Carla Harris, she's just getting warmed up. So stay with us. We'll be right back Are you getting enough omega threes in your diet Your heart, brain, and immune system all need omegaes to function the way they're supposed to Now this is backed by tens of thousands of studies Over eighty percent of Americans are not getting enough Omega Thes from food alone That's why I want to tell you about Nordic naturals This is not your typical fish oil. They use high quality, sustainably sourced ingredients. They test everything for purity and freshness and get this actually tastes Good No gross aftertaste. and the worst, no fishy burps. I hate those. That's why Nordic Naturals is the number one selling omega three brand. Use promo code Mel for fifteen percent off your next order at nordic. com and discover the power of omega three with Nordic Naturals. 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That's Rsettaestone dot com slash ml and start learning a language for real Welcome back It's your friend Mel Robbins, and you and I are here with the extraordinary Carla Harris, and she is giving you and me the essential information and coaching and the truths that we need to hear to take advantage of this extraordinary moment of change Carlly, you have spent thirty five plus years inside the rooms where decisions about people's compensation, promotion, equity, opportunities are decided What do women not understand about how power truly works in the corporate world One of the most important things that I think women don't understand is that you do need a sponsor speaking for you in those rooms, as you just articulated, E single decision about your career will be made in a room behind closed doors where you are not present. Your compensation is going to be decided in a room where you're not present. yourour promotions are going to be decided in a room where you're not present. and new opportunities are going to get doled out and you're not present So somebody has to speak on your behalf in that room and I dubbed that person back in nineteen ninety a sponsor. becausecause that person is spending their currency. The sponsors do spend currency. They sponsor shows, they sponsor games. They spend their currency on your behalf to make sure that you're going to get the promotion, you're going to get the compensation. you're going to get the next greatade opportunity. And women were told for so long they just keep your head down and work hard And if you're doing that, we tend to overinvest as I call it in the performance currency. That's your deliverable. I call it that the performance currency. You're delivering that which is asked of you and a little bit extra Right? But you keep investing to the point of diminishing marginal utility And what you should be doing is investing concurrently very shortly thereafter in the relationships, there should not be a question in your mind as to who's going to spend some currency on your behalf in that old so important meeting So going back to your context about you're in the room where the things are getting said, somebody has to speak for you. Do you know who that is So one of the things that I say to professionals is especially when it's time for compensation decisions, especially when it's time for promotions You need to ask yourself Who's going to spend some currency on me in that room And if you can't answer that question Then you know that you need to retreat from working so hard and invest in a sponsored relationship And sometimes you have to exercise your power and you have to say, Mel You know, I know that u You guys are going to be making those decisions about promotions And I need somebody to speak on my behalf. You know me, you know my work, you know the client feedback. And I hope you feel comfortable spending a little currency on me behind closed doors. Now in a perfect world, you're having that conversation long before that afternoon where it's going to happen But worst case scenario. You don't let the meeting happen in the room and you haven't said anything to anybody because then you're sitting there like this And as the great Mike Tyson said, hope is not a strategy I would love to dig just a little bit and unpack the sponsor. And here's why Whenever that advice is brought up and it is true Because if you are not known, if your contributions are not known, if somebody cannot speak on your behalf the value that you demonstrate Why on earth would you think that just like you're getting paid to show up and do the job You get promoted for doing more or doing an exceptional job at it. And I think I made the mistake in my career early of just assuming that somebody else would notice that How do you market your own visibility and contributions Especially in a world where you may be working from home, it may be hybrid, everybody's busy, half the time, I don't even know what I'm working on How do you do that Let me unpack that a bit. So first of all Once you recognize that somebody has to speak on your behalf, now you have to ask yourself, well, who is that somebody for me? And what I normally say to people is when you're thinking about a sponsor, here's how you pick out a sponsor. Number one, the sponsor needs to have a seat at the decision making table Number two They need to have some visibility into your work Because if I go into the decision making room and I am pounding the table Mail ought to have this, Mail ought to have that. and everybody in that room knows that I don't work with Mail, I have no credibility in that room. And number three, your sponsor needs to have some juice. They need to have some power in that room Now. So what do you do? For two weeks, you study your environment and you say to yourself Who has a seat at the decision making table? And if you can't figure that out, then you just simply ask someone. Mel I walked around for years not understanding how decisions were being made, right? Everybody would talk about the promotion committee, the promotion committee, but it wasn't really clear to me who was on the promotion committee. until one day I asked somebody. And it was another female manager director. I was not yet an MD. and I said, talkalk to me about this promotion committee because this is an important year for me. I don't understand how this thing works. I've been hearing about it for years. And she said, Well, it's a group of people. There are four or five people that are always there because they're on the operating committee or they're on the management committee. And then there are different department heads that may or may not be the same from year to year. And not only did she tell me who they were She actually drew a picture table And she said, this one sits next to this one, this one sits next to that. this is how that works, right? And I couldn't believe I'd walked around for so long in such ignorance just thinking, just make sure you do a good job, makeake sure you do it, not really understanding that dynamic So that's the first thing you should do Who has a seat at a decision making table? and how are these decisions made The second thing is now you say of the people that I know who have a seat at the table Who has visibility into my work? And it doesn't have to be your direct boss, but it needs to be somebody that has some visibility into your work. So it could be somebody who's in an adjacent group or something like that And then now ideally you pick two or three people from that second sheet And then now you start thinking about ways that you can build a relationship. And this is the easiest part. Most people think, oh, it's so hard to build a relationship in my environment. you know, and oh, by the way, I'm an introvert. And the way you build any relationship personally or professionally it's just frequency of touch Think about the people and it could be virtual touch to your point or it could be physical touch. So if you think about the people that you are close to in college or from previous experiences How did you get closeer to them? Maybe you went to the football games together. Maybe you always worked out together, but it was that touch that created the relationship So now with those people you want to build a sponsive relationship with, you start thinking about ways that you can interact And in a professional environment, it takes light touches You don't even have to work with them. You can just, you know, you know what? I'm going down for my starbucks run today And I know you like it, how can I get it for you? You know, orr you know, I'll fly you buy whatever it is or, you know, Fridays, you say, hey, what which goty going on for the weekend? You know, Mondays you say, how was that thing that you did over the weekend? or let me tell you what I did for the weekend. or it's a town hall. You make sure you sit next to Mail, every town hall. I say So what question do you think this is going to be about? Or you know what I got two questions. They're always begging for questions. Let me try this one on. and see what you think Anytime you find ways to engage, those light touches are the things that relationships are made of. And Nirvana is when somebody says, Mel, I'm going to make it happen for you. So they're already defining themselves as a sponsor But for many of us, you have to exercise your power, which is what I did. And I went to somebody once I realized how important this was big year for promotion. And I said, listen You know, you and I both know somebody has to speak on my behalf behind closed doors And you know me, you know my work, you know the client feedback and I hope you feel comfortable sponsoring me because I think you'll do a terrific job on my behalf And the person was sort of like, Oh nah, Habaab. But then he said yes And why was it an important conversation for me to have? If he had told me no He's going to have to tell me why And that would have been important data for me from which to make a decision But if he said yes, I trusted he'd get it done Carla, I don't want you to stop But I got to take a pause and give our sponsors a chance to share a few words. and I want to give you a chance to copy this link and send it to every single woman you know. We all need Carla in our lives because the world is changing and she is giving us the new rules we can play by Don't go anywhere. 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Sign up and get ten percent off at betterhelp dot com slash meel Robins. That's betterhlp dot com slash Mel Robins. Welcome back to's your friend, Mel Robbins, and today you and I are getting to spend time learning from the extraordinary Carla Harris All right, Carla, let's just jump back right in You talked earlier about how The playbook that we thought was what work was is The window All the rules have changed, which creates this extraordinary opportunity. And you also have spoken about and write about the fact that reinvention is what you call me three point zero. Yes. talk about reinvention and also Help us grab the opportunity Yes, off this exact moment that we're in. Yes Let me talk about the three point zero. And I have to give credit to my former chairman and CEO. We were having a conversation one day and I said, okay, it might be time for me to get to two point zero And he said, you know, I will concede that you have you have done your thing. However, I don't call it two point zero. I call it three point zero. And I said, oh, detail He said, one point zero is about your academic preparation to get to your career point ero is hopefully about excelling in your career and then your family life. And three point zero is all about you I said, okay. I will forever call it three point zero. And I've been calling it three point zero since then. And I am again going to change this word from reinvention to evolution. becausecause even the thing that you are becoming or that you aspire to be has been influenced by that which has already been and it has helped you to now crystallize this next thing that you're trying to get to and get to with excitement because you have the wisdom, the knowledge, the experience of the last ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty five, or thirty five years So I think to get to that point in your life now where you can put it all together. And again Don't be afraid of this moment because you have assets that you didn't have thirty five years ago. You have relationships You have learned skills, you have experience. And the thing is to not get tethered or weighed down by the things that you thought were hard because those things just came to teach you something I tell folks when you have tough lessons, they're just coming to teach you something. So stop and make sure that you are being real clear about extracting the lesson because as you know, when life comes to teach you a lesson, you don't pass the test, you will repeat the class. class is harder. That's right it's coming again. R. So now you think about this next thing with a new kind of excitement and you go towards it as you are evolving to become else Well, on this topic of evolving, we have a question from a listener whose name is Melissa, who is in the middle of as you put it evolving. And I would love to hear your thoughts and specific advice about what she should do Hi Mel I amm fifty years old Gonna gonna be fifty one next week I have been at the same position for twenty two years. so I'm an executive director for a nonprofit Unfortunately, we've lost our funding and so we'll be closing And I need to find a new job For me, My question is How do you get past feeling like You are not qualified for anything. I've been doing the same thing for so long willill I really know how to do the new stuff. How do I work my way out of that, to feel the confidence, to look for a new job, to feel like I'm worthy for whatever position I'm applying for. and not question myself when I go for a job interview, really even just press send on submit the application I love, love, love, your question. Now let's look at your facts. You have twenty two years of experience and you've been doing this for twenty two years and you're an executive director. My guess is that you didn't start in as an executive director. You worked your way up to that position. And let's talk about your facts. One, you know how to ascend, two, you know how to learn new things and master those things Three, you know how to manage and more importantly lead other people because if you've been in a leadership position for as long as you've been in a leadership position, that means people are inspired by you. They like working with you. You know how to work with new people and inspire and motivate those new people. Those are general skills that I'm arguing that you have because I have not met you But those are things that would be applicable to any leadership position, no matter whether it's going to be in a nonprofit or a for profit. Now your story becomes, I have twenty two years experience in a nonprofit. As you know working in a nonprofit is not a very easy thing to do. And in many cases, you have to be able to produce and also deliver for your constituents lot of resources. So I would argue that I'm very resourceful and I know how to deliver for my constituents on very little I also can inspire and motivate people because as you know, it's not easy to recruit and more importantly to retain really good talent in a nonprofit. And many of my team have been with me for the last eight, ten or twelve years. We have evolved as an organization. We have gone from A to B to now C. so I obviously also know how to lead throughout a transformation And I know how to take people into new territories and inspire them to do things that they didn't even think that they can do. So now in the role in your organization where transformation is required, innovation is required, Motivating and leading a team is required for this particular seat to be successful, I'm highly confident that I'll be able to deliver for you. And I'm excited to be having this conversation with you Melissa, that's your script. Go get them You know, one thing I wonder if you could give some coaching on is I suspect, especially since at the end, I noticed she said How do I work my way out of this feeling I'm worthy for whatever position I'm applying for and not question myself when I go on the interview or even question myself when I really just hit that send And here's what I want you to speak to I think when You lose funding or you get laid off. or you feel like has ended and it wasn't your choosing or that you've failed There's also that struggle of I'm not good enough. And so what would you say to the woman? who has been laid off or whose career ended or company closed and is struggling with that sense of I'm not worthy because I didn't choose to pivot. So here's what I'll say if you find yourself in a situation where you've been laid off, I'm going to tell you not to put on the jersey of failure. And here's why. sometimes layoffs happen when they have nothing to do with the individuals, they have everything to do with the income statement and that the organization just cannot retain the resources frankly that it needs in order to compete The second thing that I'm going to tell you is that you might be in a situation where the universe has been telling you for a long time that you were ready for your new challenge, but you didn't want to see it or worse, you were afraid of it. So now you've been put in a position where you have to go for it. And remember this, if a situation of any kind been delivered to you, you are ready for it So maybe you didn't make the election umbilical cord yourself. but the universe knows that you are ready. So I'm going to ask you to trust it as if You al reready, even if in your heart, you're not feeling like it. What would you do if you were going to act like a courageous person and go get it What would that look like? So for now, I'm gonna tell you to play at it and practice until you realize that in fact, you are ready, and then I'm going to tell you to go get it with some conviction and some confidence. That is Brilliant act as if it was delivered to you right now because you are ready for it right now. That's right That is a massive reframe You know, I don't know who said this, but I constantly think about this thing that, you know, for somebody who always figures it out, you're worrying awful lot. Yeah right? Yeah. that the past has shown you that you've always figured it out. So if you haveave this delivered to you right now, the universe is telling you time to figure it out It's your data. It's your data It's your data Um You Also tell women to pick three adjectives that you want people to describe you by Why do you recommend that we do this in our careers? Yes, I wrote about this Mel in my first book, pererception is the co pilot to reality, how people perceive you will directly impact how they deal with you. And I wrote this because so often, as we say, first impressions are your last impressions. But what we don't say is that everybody comes to an encounter with some baggage And so therefore, if you have baggage about who I am, It will color your lens and it may also impact what you hear because of what you see And so if you want to make sure that people see your strengths or they see you as you see yourself, you have to be thoughtful about what are the words you want them to use. And what I also suggest is that those words are consistent with what's valued in your seat And the way that you can train people to think about you, the way you want them to think about you is to think of the three adjectives that are consistent with who you really are authentically, but think of the three adjectives that are valued in your seat. Wh whereere they intersect is how you must behave consistently around those adjectives, because now you will train them to talk about you in the way that you want them to talk about you when you're not in the room. And the other way that you do that is that you use this language in your environment when you're talking about yourself. So the story that I love to tell is that I had a senior manager director who was big guy, big voice, you know, that kind of dude in the environment. and he's like, you know, I think you' you're smart, you work hard, but I don't think you're tough enough business And as you might imagine, as a woman on Wall Street, the last thing you want to be thought of is not tough. And then I thought, well, surely he's pulling my leg. you know, what was this guy smoking, right? And then I thought, o, wait a minute, Carla, maybe he's not kidding. And maybe the rest of the organization doesn't see you that way. And like I said, that's the last thing you want to be thought of. But here's the most important part of the story I always thought about myself as being tough. So the fact that he was now questioning whether or not I was tough enough, was a wake up call that the real Carla Harris wasn't showing up anymore Somewhere I had lost my confidence, someomewhere I'd lost my voice And now it was creating a competitive disadvantage for me So I decided for niney days, I walked off Duff tough, drink tough, use tough in my language. And sure enough, in about ninety days it worked because I would say things like, oh You know, you want me to go in and listen to that CEO's presentation and it's not even my deal. Well tell me a little bit about this CEO. if this guy sensitive? Do he have a thin skin? you know, because I'm tough. I don't want to hurt about his feelings And I kept saying it over and over and sure enough. in about ninety days, people were like, we're going to see Carla Harres. You know, she's so tough. Oh boy, you interviewer with Carla Harres, Oh, she's so tough. but you have to people think about you in the way you want them to think about you because they just may not see you that way And you can't take it personally, you know, they don't see you So you have to make sure that you're seeing and that you thought of in the way that you want to be thought of , I also want to make sure that I highlight something that you said that I think is very important If you're going to pick your three words Maybe they're confident. prepared, smart or Maybe it's u, you know, you're tough You're powerful, you're clear Pick those three words, but what I love that you said that I want to make sure that as you're listening to Carlly, you do not miss. is do not do that just in meetings If you want to be seen as confident and serious and powerful Make sure you're not joking around in the lunchroom. Make sure you're not rolling in late becausecause, you know, you don't take things seriously You gota s like those three things from the moment you walk in the door and in every email you send your behavior to be consistent. Yes. That is the key word consistency. because if you're inconsistent in that behavior That perception will not be solidified Correct. R. And so I appreciate that you pointed out that Pick your three words, but also look at the environment that you're in and is there an overlap? And am I consistent in every interaction when I'm showing up? because that's how I build a reputation.s byy deciding What do I want my reputation to be and then acting consistently? I love that. And make sure it's you authentic. Don't make it up Don't say I want to be this and this. But that's not you because you won't be able to deliver that And that's why it's important that you are authentic about the decisions and the jobs that you choose Because if you don't like doing numbers, why are you thinking about going to a quantitative or a financial position If you're not a creative person, why are you trying to do marketing Right? So pick the things that are consistent with who you are And the things that are valued in the seat, that's where you have a shot to maximize your success I would love to have you hear from a listener Lee, who's a stay at home mom, and she's dealing with a lot of self doubt G I know I've been a stay at home mom for the last twelve years And I really want to get back out there and start working, but I feel like I'm dealing with a lot of nervousness a lot of lack of confidence I feel like I've been at home while others have been studying, making connections, working their way up the ladder I want to let me get out there and start chasing my dream But I'm dealing with a lot of self doubt I want to crush that self doubt What advice would you give me So here's what I'd say to Lee. Lee, here's how you crush yourselff doubt I want you to take a look at your own data You've been a stay at home mom for the last twelve years. So h, what does that tell me? That tells me you know how to deal with the unpredictable. That tells me that you are extremely resourceful. That tells me that you work very well under pressure. That tells me that you're solution oriented, you're a problem solver. These are all the things that are valued in any environment. So when you talk about yourself, even though your experience and your context might be at home and as a mother, you can talk about the fact that I'm a problem solver. Let me tell you the three things that happened in the same day. and let me tell you how I resolve that situation Let me tell you how I was really resourceful when A B and C happened and I didn't have any of other things that you would have needed like DENF in order to deal with that. But let me tell you how I shifted in order to make that happen. Let me tell you how I built relationships as I started to put my kids into school or as I had to build relationships with this counselor with this playdate team All of these things taught me how to be a team player, how to be a leader, how to manage situations. Aain, how to be results oriented, how to be problem solver. And so there's nothing that I can't learn and learn it quickly. Now Lee, that's your data. That's not mine So I want you to listen to this over and over and look at yourself in the mirror and say those things about yourself because those are your facts. And the more that you can embrace that, the more you can connect the dots between that and what it is you'd like to do and draw the parallels Go get them Lee Carla, how do you coach women to prepare for a conversation about a raise or a promotion or even just walking into that annual review. Yes. So if you're walking into your annual review for the first time, what you should have done ahead of time is your own report card You are not a taker in that conversation. You are a participant. And it doesn't matter who goes first So your boss may go first with a lot of things good and bad about what your year has looked like. and then you should follow up and say, wow, that's some really interesting data. And I really appreciate the feedback. When I walked in here, here's how I was thinking about my year And here are the things that where we intersect it and here are the things that are different. So I'd like to spend the last fifteen to twenty minutes talking about those things that are different. And what's reality and what might have been a perception and what I can do to close the gap between the two or they say to you, Mel What do you think about your year And then you start off where here's what I think about my year. Here are the things that I knocked the cover off the ball. I exceeded expectations. Here are the things where I think I was right on the money. And here are the things that I did okay, but I want to work on those things as I think about the next year. But remember, one third of that conversation should be about what you have done, two thirds should be about what you are prospectively going to do for the organization? And oh by the way, what resources you need in order to successfully prosecute that? So it's really about understanding that this is your evaluation and that you have the power in this discussion. And for so long and for so often, I would say many of us go in and we're takers. We're like, oh my gosh whereere they going to say You know, And one of the other things that I say is that if you are looking for a promotion, then you might want to start asking for it a year before you think you're ready Because when you say Mel, I'm really looking forward to getting promoted at the end of twenty seven. If Mel has no thoughts that that's going to happen, she's going to say, Oh, why do you think that Now you give your data and she goes, Well, I'm not sure you should be thinking, A You shouldn't be thinking B. and you know, you have C on the list, but C doesn't matter But at the end of that conversation, you're now going to have a really strong prescription. of what you need to deliver in the next fiscal year so that you're having a different conversation at the end of the year about your promotion Now let's talk about money M of us and I'm going to say of us because I was guilty too We go into job interviews so focused on getting the job that we haven't done our homework around the market value of the seat. You ought to know what the market value of the seat is. So when you go into that interview and you crush it and you get that offer And let's say the market value of the seat is between two hundred and two hundred fifty And they say, Oh, wellamel We're delighted to give you this offer. Your conversation is going to be one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year Now you say, wow, I'm so excited to have the offer. And I agree with you. I think I'm going to come in and knock the cover off the ball. However I'm not in a position to take this offer because I did do my homework coming in and the market value of the seat is between two hundred and two hundred fifty And I'm sure you' expecting me to knock the cover off the ball and to give you excellence in my deliverable And so surely you wouldn't want to pay below market for that which I'm going to deliver And if the offer was between two hundred and two hundred fifty I would hit that bit How would h that b? Yeah. I'm prepared to do that. But the problem is if you take the one hundred fifty, then you're sending some horror messages The first is that you negotiate poorly. The second is that you'll take anything The third is that they're going to be able to continuously pay you behind the market value of a seat And you're going to get frustrated pretty quickly when you realize that either people who are already there are making a lot more money than you or to replace your excellent work, they're going to have to pay somebody fifty percent above what they're paying you to come in. So you Get yourself out of that situation by going into that situation, knowing what the market value of the seed is. Now Let's say you didn't do well and you've been in the job. Now it's time for you to ask for a raise. Now you go in and we'll just call him Steve Now you say, Steve I'm so pleased with this evaluation. and you know, I'm proud to say for the last three years I've knocked the cover off the ball. and I'm pretty confident that I'll continue to be able to do that. But We've done some homework here and the market value of this seat is between X and Y And I'm making x minus b So I'd like to understand what we can do in order to get me somewhere between x and Y, and preferably not at X Be if I'm giving you a quality work, I should be getting a quality pay Steve says Well, you know, tight budget We're laying off people And you say, Steve I'm not happy with that answer. I'm going to continue to deliver at the highest level, but you and I need to revisit this in the next quarter to figure out how I get there ' that's not going to work for me Now you're not threatening that you're going gonna leave You have put Steve on notice. and if you're that good, Steve is very clear that if you leave and have to put somebody else in your seat They're going to have to pay them more. So why let a great resource leave? that you know can continue to knock the cover off the ball by underpaying them And if by the way, Steve continues to make that decision, then you got a different decision to make in that instance Isn't that also a giant sign to start looking around? Absolutely Absolutely, Mel. And that's the thing, if you're that good, evenven in an environment like we're in now where the economy is tough and many companies are laying off people It's been my experience after almost forty years on the street that even when companies are laying off people, they are selectively hiring Because every company likes to feel like they're using a tough economy as a way to upgrade possible. And I can't think of one industry where that has not been the case So you can't allow the exogeneous factors distract from doing what you need to do in order to maximize your success. I need you to hear that as you're listening that even though it's a tough economy. Companies are always looking for talent. Yes Do you want us to know about looking for a job or making a pivot in an economy and in the reality that we're in right now. Yes. In a tough economy like we're in right now where a lot of things are shifting. Yes, There are two real opportunities. One, you continue to network and have conversations with people because as I said, folks are always looking for great talent. but two, Think about the roles within your own organization that might need to be created. Sometimes there are opportunities within your own organization where they need somebody to do X, but they haven't taken the time to figure out what that might look like. But if you have had an opportunity to say, you know, we really could use somebody to do this. And if that person was doing this, it might help us make more money. It might help us be more efficient. It might help us train people differently. It might help us be more competitive in the marketplace Now you have an argument to somebody within your organization and you say You know, what I'm doing is fine But you and I both know we need somebody to do X And here's what I think that might look like And here's why it might be great for the organization to allow me to do that thing. You know, by the way, here is where It should be compensated Because when you're creating something new, Many times people don't know how to think about that And if they don't know how to think about it, they don't know how to value it. So you need to come to the table with the argument as to what the market value should be for that role and why it's good for the organization to allow you to do that new thing because everybody needs a Y Even an organization, which you can argue is an institution, everybody needs to whye So when you sell it You have to sell the Y. If it's new You have to educate and sell It's just the next version of something then you just attach yourself to that which has been and say this is now the three point zero or the four point zero of that thing Carla, what do you want women to know? about technology and in particular AI right now? Yes. It's a new frontier and Nobody understands it has the playbook can be prescriptive. So you get an opportunity to learn alongside everybody else. Talk to your friends about how they're using artificial intelligence. You'll be surprised what you learn. I was just sharing with someone, you know, I created a new workout program and a new diet program. I said, I want to lose ten pounds in four weeks. What does that look like Right? And I shared that with somebody and somebody said, Well, I'm talking to a new endocrinologist and I asked artificial intelligence if you're onboarding a new doctor to your team, what are the ten questions that you should ask? Somebody else said, Oh yeah, I was told I had this, this and this. and I was completely paralyzed, Did't know what to do with that. So I went to artificial intelligence and said, what is that Right? So the more you share with respect to what you're doing with it and how you're using it, the more you learn from other people where they are. But don't think of yourself as behind and for Pete's sake, don't be afraid. The thing is here Nobody invited it in, but they're at the party They're dancing Now the question is are you going sit against a wall, you're going bug it too I would love to have you talk about how specifically Women can use AI as a resource at work when they are tired and fatigued. becausecause one of the things I am excited about is the fact that so many of us are constantly overperforming. We don't have an assistant. We don't have anybody we can give it to corkers are burdened. And so I see it as this incredible resource if you learn to use it to give you time back. Absolutely. So can you talk though a little bit about how could you think about using this tool if you're burnt out, if you're tired and you still need to show up for work in your family. Yes. So one of the things you can think about, especially if you are working in an environment where you do not have an assistant, there is something now called an agent. And if you don't know how to build an agent, as I asked a technology professional, I said, how do I learn how to build an agent? They said, As artificial intelligence, how do you build an agent So stop me straight in my tracks, Mel. All right. Now you can say, summarize these twenty emails for me. So you don't have to read all twenty emails. I have a good friend who created an agent to go through all of her emails and to pick out the five most important ones. Now in the beginning, you might have to go behind it to make sure it's not making mistakes, but you do that once or twice And now the thing is working for you because it learns from you every time you do it. Let's say you are burdened because you have to make travel arrangements all the time. Now you can have the agent pick out for you what are going to be the most competitive fares for you and how to actually think about not only the flights, the time, but what hotels you ought to use for this new city that you're going to. Let's say you have to give a presentation on something you've never done before When I was getting one of our technology professionals to show me how to use artificial intelligence, I said, you know I don't know a lot about this particular thing And I said, write me a presentation on this particular thing, fifteen pages. That was a primmer Right? So there's so many things you can do. Now, let's talk about how it saves you time Somebody asked me to do a fireside chat with an author I hadn't hadn't any time and I was sent the book literally The day before I had to do the fireide check And I said, just for kicks because I was planning to get on the plane and go through it. And I said Give me the summary of the chapters of this book summaries If you were doing a fire side chat with this person, give me three questions from every chapter It was less than ten minutes. And I would have spent seven hours or the six hours that it took to get to the coast trying to cram down that book and create some questions. Now again Now that I had all this newfound time, I could say, oh, this chapter looks interesting. That chapter looks interesting. So then I could pick and choose which ones I were really going to go deep and invest in and be able to do it. And by the way I was only doing the fireet chat for thirty minutes I would have invested seeven hours of learning For thirty minutes of delivery I'll let your listeners do their own math on that You know, another way that I think it's really beneficial to use it is a lot of times people, I'm going to use your word taker. You sit back and you're waiting for feedback on something and there's a bottleneck because the person who's supposed to give you feedback has so much else going on You can use it to make your own work better. You can use it to give you feedback when you cannot get time with the person whose feedback you're waing on. Absolutely. I mean, it's just endless. What do you want to say to a woman? So is just like, I'm not using it. And there are very real reasons to be afraid. There are regulations that need to put in place there very real concerns that we need to address about the environment and about the impact it's going to have long term. That is all true and to the woman who's just like absolutely not Yeah no. I had a friend who was like that who was like, Nope, AI social media. Nope, I'm not doing any of that. And then I said to her, I said, listen, you can't afford to not engaged with artificial intelligence. It's here to stay and it's not going anywhere. And you also don't want to be left behind So this is something that is going to continue to grow. And if you don't want to become a fossil, you have to at least start to play around with it. So I convinced her to go to a couple of conferences and where they actually had breakout sessions on artificial intelligence. And boy did she come back a convert playing with it every day, using it every day. And I submit to you that maybe it does need regulation. I submit to you that it's not always right I submit to you that there are some hallucinations, but you can't afford to wait until all of that is ironed out. before you engage because otherwise, you're going to find yourself just a year from now feeling like you can't engage in the economy that we're living in because everybody iss using it for this or for that So you are not too young too old to start playing around with it I love that you said you're going to be a fossil because I agree You will be if you let this pass you by. and I appreciate that like me, you're acknowledging problems that need to get sorted out, but in the meantime, using your phrase in the meantime. That's right. You better jump on the dance floor Yeah What are the rules around how you deal with a work environment is whether you call it toxic or just insanely stressful or you deal with a boss who tends to be a little narcissistic in their personality style or eruptive or emotionally immature, whatever label you want to put on it How do you show up to that kind of job without losing both your confidence, your sanity or your job. Yes So first of all, you should be very clear the reason that you are in that environment is that you are that good So nobody should make you second guess your confidence because if you weren't good, you weren't still be in the environment. That's number one. Number two, now you need to go back and think about the reasons that you went into that work environment Right? Maybe the work environment has changed because nobody walks into a toxic work environment because they want to Either it wasn't like that when you joined or you really didn't see it or you didn't do the due diligence. So now let's say you're in it and you say, oh my gosh, I didn't do the due diligence. Now you say, is this an environment where there's something for me to get Are there skills here that I think I can get really quickly? Are there experiences that I think I can get really quickly? And if so, let me focus myself on this so that I can get this and put yourself on a timeline. I'm a big fan of having a timeline because otherwise it's easy to get distracted to get comfortable and you look up and five years have gone are you still there. And oh, by the way, now your confidence has been eroded or you have become somebody that you don't like So once you figure out whether or not there's something you can get in a short period of time, you get it. And at the same time, you start building your relationships externally so that you have an off ramp. in that environment. Now, let's say that it just changed. So no shame in that game. It changed because there were a lot of leadership changes or whatever. Same thing. You start using your power to build relationships to get yourself an off ramp. But the risk that you run in staying in a toxic environment for too long is that unconsciously, it will erode your power and it will erode your confidence Because I don't care who you are, Mel. If I keep telling you, you're nothing, you're nothing, you're nothing, you're nothing. evenven if you're stronger and you're powerful and you go into that, you start to absorb that Right? And somewhere along the way, you will start to question whether you are all that. and you'll start to think that perhaps you're anythingything So you got to get yourself out of that once you have extracted What's what you want out of that environment I love the advice of creating a timeline. And one of the reasons why I love that is because it's very easy when you have a mortgage or you have daycare or you got the bills that you're paying that you start to tell yourself that, well, I need this job to pay my bills. And then you start convincing yourself that this is the only job and there is no other job. And if it's kind of toxic, you're probably working eighty hours a week and feel like you don't have time to do anything else. So what I love about the timeline is the second you are honest with yourself and you say, I don't want to work in a place like this. Yes, there is something I'm going to get But I'm giving it a timeline. You have now stepped out of it and said, I'm going to use it instead of it using me. I'm using my power. Yes. That's right. Brilliant. Brilliant. Carlt Given that you have a huge public job, you sit on multiple boards. You have two young kids You are an international speaker, a wife, an author. How do you think about the boundaries between work and life What are some of the rules that you've set up for yourself or how do you get this all in harmy?ure All live mail. It's all life. And so the question is, how do you divide your day and your time in a way that's going to give you the greatest return. There were many days that Morgan Stalley might have gotten ninety percent of it, right? But I got a big return out of that investment. And maybe my social life or my play life or my party or my hanging out with friends only got ten percent, but I got some of that because life has to be balanced Right And some days work is not going to bring you joy, S days your family or your personal life is not going to bring you joy. But if you have something in that day that's bringing you joy, then that is what creates the balance. And there are other times where, you know, Carla the mom is front and center, Carla the board director is front and center. For me, it's all Carla