Final Thoughts and Conclusion

Our Ramas Cos if havevacada projectos Cant andber. O Achine Porento Nuna Alexion de Puertas andras S Trore personal Ss. Ademas our Renta do Ares andunquit de doos Ramientas Wolf deente Voltos Max, Porsentosente Nuueedores. Yenel Proes de Los try to lista the materialis escrita anduna photo reibuna cotision and Minutos. Ajelisatus projectos Mriges or rando Cloos Aacetoosot resistanceloarga Okay for me a book on art forgery I found myself drawn to these Old masters How did these artists take paint from a palette, arrange it on a canvas? I began to unlock the secrets I was a storehouse of knowledge of how to create an illusion present it to a experienced expert, manipulate his mind and convince him and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine We flooded the market with my paintings And I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it Then the dominoes started falling and eventually the FBI will led to my door They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me, but they never actually got you. At this point, you've sold a lot. You've got like a million dollars in cash. You've sold one painting for seven hundred seventeen thousand Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? And How are we having this conversation? I guess it's the greatest story of all To hear how Ken Perei made millions in art forgery, dodged the mafia and the FBI, suubbscribe to the Jordan Harbinger Show and check out episode two hundred eighty two in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. I'm Bret And I'm Alice And we are the prosecutors Today on the prosecutors A young Navajo girl disappears from her home in New Mexico The strange phone call a year after has led many to believe she may still be alive Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett, and I'm joined as always by my de lovely co host Alice Well, the thank you. than you. I have no idea what that is, but I will take lovely in any form. Yeah, it's not a real word, but that's from Joshua So apparently D did you watch American Dad Is that the like over the hill or King of the hell made it No, it's the ones who made Puturama. No. It's cartoon. It's the one. Oh God. it's an adult cartoon. It's familyily guy. S familyamily guy.. Okay. That's right. It is I've watched familyily guy. I've not watched American Dead. Well, he, I don't know. he made up the word de loveovely in an episode and Joshua just thought that was the most Josh. justust decided that was the coolest word ever It is a great one. So he thinks you're a lovely I to thank you. Yeah, there you go. Anyways Okay. well, that's the last bit of fun we're going to have. You know These cases, Alice, I guess this is the problem. We've said this before, we're doing Tue Cumb. You just come across these cases that are absolutely tragic. This is gonna be one of them. We're dealing with the disappearance of a young girl and frankly, just some things that were going on in her home that or disturbing make you question exactly what happened in this case. This is going to be one where we're going to play some audio. It's going to be tough to listen to, but I think It's worth doing because We don't know what happened to this young girl And we want to find her. So that's why we're telling the story So who we're talking about today is Anthona Christine Cayadido So Anthonette was born on Christmas Day nineteen seventy six. People who aren't born on Christmas Day just in general have a soft place in my heart because you have to share your birthday with them, you know Jesus' birthday. My mom was actually born on Christmas D. Really Yeah. And so I don't know. anyyone who's born on Christmas Day probably because you know, you have one mom. you always think of Every surrounds your mom I just love everyone who's born on Christmas Day. I like how you wil you share with Jesus' birthday. My thought was you only get one set of presents. I don't know what that says about us. That too. But my point being you know, if you're going to share it with Jesus' birthday, Jesus' birthday usually at least in the rest of the world probably takes up more celebration than the individual. So I always celebrated my mom twice, obviously Christmas and then her birthday This is not going to be the only reason Anthonte is going to just stick with you. You'll see very soon why? So Anthonte was the daughter of Penny Calladido and Larry Estrada. She was part Navajo on her mom's side and her father was of Italian descent. Anthonette's parents separated when she was young, with Penny acting as her primary caregiver. She grew up in Gallup, New Mexico, right on the edge of a Navajo reservation with her mother Penny, and her two younger half sisters, Sadie and Wendy Anthoninette was described as smart, sweet, and very responsible. She was a great older sister. offtten tasked with watching Sadie and Wendy while her mother worked, a task which she took great care in Her sisters remember her as almost a second mother often taking responsibility for household chores and even preparing meals. And we're not talking about like a sixteen year old taking care of her young half sisters. No, at the time of the story we're about to tell, Anthonette was just nine years old and she was a fourth grader at Lincoln Elementary School. Yeah, so you know, some of y' have been in the situation you got to grow fast when Last tough and obviously she had a single mother and she was having to take a lot of responsibility in the home. So let's talk about april fifth, nineteen eighty six. So Penny Kaadito leaves her three daughters home with a babysitter and goes to a local bar with some friends Now, one thing I want to know Over the years, the validity of this story has been questioned. whether or not there was actually a babysitter. I think almost certainly there was not And one thing that this sort of hints for you, a lot of unreliable narration in this story. We're going to tell you the stories as it's been told, but just know, not everything you're hearing is probably true and that goes for things that you hear from mother as well. So this is probably a circumstance where the girls were left at home and Anthonette was taking care of them and this was often case. So at midnight, Penny arrives home and the babysitter leaves, as is her story. When she gets home, Kenny puts Wendy and Sadie to bed in her bedroom, but Anthonet stays up She said that she and Anthonet stayed up talking and playing cards until roughly three AM Per Sadie, it was unusual for Anthonette to stay up this late. Already, weird Right? I mean, from the very beginning of this story, you got the babysitter that probably didn't exist And now you've got this Nine year old. staying up until three o'clock in the morning playing cards with her mom. A mom has probably went to the bar to have drinks and usually I mean People do come home and continue to party, but a lot of people come home after a night at the bar to crash, to crash out, to go sleep, you know, because they've had their drinks, they come home and they go to sleep. And so yeah, I would say that part of her story is true, that it's unusual for Anthonette to stay up until three AM. Most nine year olds, most people don't stay up till three AM. Well, Penny says around three AM she falls asleep and all three of her daughters are in bed with her Sime after Penny fell asleep. Sadie reported hearing someone knocking at the door She said that she heard a man's voice outside, but no one responded or opened the door. Now, what's interesting about this is you're already thinking Okay. we got a mystery here. W there a knock on the door? If there was a knock on the door, who was it? Is this possibly someone who's going to be involved in the story Crazy thing about this, we know exactly who this is So the police are going to end up interviewing a man named Roger and Roger recalled knocking on the door and windows at around three thirty AM According to his story He had been at the bar Penny And they had got into some sort of fight And he wanted to check on her things about this story already. Penny gets home According to her att midnight. Now I say according to her, recall We're only really hearing from y Anthony's the oldest, the other two girls are very young It's not clear to me whether they were even necessarily awake At midnight when Penny supposedly arrived home, she then tells a story about staying up until three AM with Anthoninette. I think the more likely story is she got home around three AM. I think the more likely story is she got home around three AM. She puts the girls in her bed or they're already in her bed And then Roger shows up around three hundred and thirty That makes a lot more sense. We had a fight in the bar. thirty minutes later, I'm knocking on your door. Not, We had a fight in the bar at eleven thirty You went home and then four hours later, I'm knocking on your door. I think probably Penny got home a lot later than she says. And I would even gander to say she got home very close in time to when he because she probably stormed out and he probably followed her it was shortly after that he's knocking on the door. Otherwise, if you had a fight and then show up at someone's house in the middle of night four hours later banging on the door I would think you're here to like kill me, right? Like that's not a friendly sort of situation. There's no reason really to doubt him. because he say, yeah, I was there knocking on the door. Now, I truly believe these are lies for the reasons we said Are they significant? I don't know, but it goes back to the Who can you believe in this story? and you're going to see that as this continues Anyways, Roger says he knocked on the door, he knocked on the windows. Nobody answered. He leaves and he goes to stay with a friend down the street and the friend will confirm this story. He says Roger basically showed up around three hundred forty five or so and slept on his couch So it seems like Roger' telling the truth. maybe. Now Sadie will say that when she heard this knocking Her mom told them all just to ignore it and it would go away Now what's interesting, though is not that knocking. It's the knocking that came next because sometimes later Sadie, who remember is the younger sister She hears this knocking Again the door Now she doesn't know exactly when this is. She just knows it happened somet time later And this time, Anthoninette got up to see who was there. Sadie falls back asleep. She has no idea what happened after this. She just knows that Anthonette is going to go to the door. Now, this is what she tells the police at the time In a later interview, she will say that She does not recall this event. though interestingly, Wendy who is also one of the younger sisters says she does remember it and it did happen. I'm not saying Sadie's lying now This was a very long time ago, nineteen eighty six is when this happened. And people forget things and they forget things that seem like they should be absolutely critical We see that in a lot of true crime stories But I think given what Wendy says and given what Sadie said at the time This second knock on the door did So now brings us to a few hours later, about six thirty or seven in the morning. An elderly woman who lived next door to the Calladitos later told police that she saw an older model brown truck or van. New Mexico plates outside Penny's home around six thirty or seven in the morning She saw a man exit the truck and go up to the Cayadido's door At the time, the neighbor didn't think much of this because it was common for people to be coming and going from the Cayadito home at all hours. That itself, by the way, tells you a little bit something about the home life here as well Another neighbor corroborates this story. And I just want to touch on what Alice said, Look, there's nothing wrong with having a lot of people visit your home, being very friendly, being whatever. But Certainly means there's a lot of potential suspects here. There's a lot of potential people who were coming and going from that home who might have taken some sort of interest and one of the girls and could possibly be a suspect. And because there are people coming and going It's very difficult for us to say who any of these people are so to even check on them or narrow a list of suspects down is going to be very difficult for the police, th as you'll see is typical the police you don't really care. Okay. so That's around six thirty or seven AM This could have coincided with what Sadie heard. Remember Sadie hears this. so does Wendy But it's one of those things that they're not staying awake. They wake up go back to sleep. They have no idea what time it is. So this could be the same incident could be a different incident. Around seven AM though, we know that Penny wakes up and she's going to get the girls ready for a Bible study. Both Wendy and Sadie are still in bed, but Anthoninette is So Penny goes around the rest of the house. She's looking for Anthoninette, but she can't find her anywhere So at this point Penny takes her two daughters and they start to sort of fan out and look around the neighborhood And they sort of stopp at various places that they knew Anthonette would frequent her favorite spots around the neighborhood But they're not seeing anything. So then they start to knock on neighbors doors. These neighbors are going to help with the search And Penny notes a couple things. She notes that Anthonet's shoes and coat are still at the house, which means it's unlikely that she just walked out on her own. You would think she would at least put on her shoes But one thing that was missing was the nightgown that she had been wearing, it was nowhere to be found. So it's likely she's still wearing it. This may conjure images of a should degree walking out in her nightgown, though here, unlike in that case It seems like there was someone at the house at some point. that may have led to this departure So at eleven AM, Penny reports Anthonette missing to the galluop PD So she says that she woke up at seven. That's what she noticed. So this is about four hours later. Now obviously we're talking about a nine year old girl. If you wake up and she's not there, this is not a situation where you wait for her to come back, for example, from the bar. She's supposed to be home Now Penny is told she has to wait eight hours before filing a missing person's report. Again, what I just said, generally, maybe the police did tell her that and they probably did. That's BS. I mean, I'm sorry. If I wake up and my child's not there, I don't care if it's been eight hours or eight minutes. I'm running to the police. Yeah, and we and especially these older cases. I mean, I would say And I think it's true I don't think the police would tell you this now. I think opinions have really changed about this Now, I would hope they wouldn't. But these older stories, you hear this all the time. Eight hours, twenty four hours. And there are circumstances when we talked about West Memphis three. And the boys are out and it's getting dark. in the police officer's liide will'll give it An hour. giveive it forty five more minutes or so. And if they don't come back, call the police. That makes a little bit more sense. three boys out playing. It's getting dark. I mean probably don't need to make a big deal out of this yet But as Alice said Your daughter is not in her bed or anywhere to be found in the morning. You don't need to wait eight hours to start investigating. They do, and in fact, they don't really start looking until the next day. So remember, Penny is separated from Anthoninette's father. So Anthonette lives with mom, Penny, full time. Penny at this point, when she reports to Gallup PD that Anthony is missing, she calls Anthony's father and tells him, Hey, she's gone The next day, april seventh Gallipede began an official investigation into Anthonette's disappearance. Again basically a full day after she is gone. She if she likely disappeared sometime in that between three thirty and seven AM time period The next day, Galluop Ped' say, Well, she hasn't shown up, I guess we should start looking. So they begin by interviewing Penny, Wendy, and Sadie, of course, her family members who she was asleep with at this time and they search the home. Initially, Sadie told investigators about the two knocks she heard, and Penny claimed she hadn't heard them at all. But she told police that Anthoninet never would have answered the door for a stranger. And this is interesting because we have that neighbor, of course, who says that There are lots of people come to this house, but not just come to this house. Come to this house all times the day. becauseuse I'll say this mayaybe I'll answer the door for you, Brett at three AM. Like if I saw you I'd like, oh my gosh, like someone's died. Maybe I'll let you in But even if I saw someone I knew, like I knew socially or even vaguely and they came and knocked on my door at three AM I don't know that answer the door. Like I might be like, you okay? What do you need? before I open my door to them. Yeah, the last time anybody knocked on my door in an unusual hour, I literally had the shotgun with me while I'm talking to them. through the door Why? I would not be opening the door for anyone But I mean, she's a young girl, but I also think the language here could be important For a stranger, what is a stranger What exactly does that mean? If there's a lot of people coming in and out of this house, there may be a lot of people that Anthonette just knows if that person shows up you answer the door for So I don't know how much this tells us, really. Now we do know that nothing in the apartment indicated any sign of forced entry, no sign of a struggle. They found that none of Anthoninette's clothing was missing other than the pink nightgown she had been wearing. Penny told law enforcement that she locked both the front door and the screen door in front of it, but when she woke up in the morning, she found both O And authorities believed this was evidence that Anthonette did indeed know herer chapter Now one thing that's good So They move slowly initially, but immmediately upon this conversation, they contact the state police and they contact the FBI and they get their assistance So The initial move was slow. Once they started moving, they did the right thing. And so at this point, there's a multi agency search The begins and it last until Wednesday, april ninth. The surge radius spanned about twenty five miles which covers the entire town of Gallup and its surroundings. And They don't find her A few days passed four days after her disappearance and after a lot of relatives were urging. Penny tells police that her friend Emelia Emo, showed up to the house while Penny was getting ready to go out the night of the disappearance and brought Anthonet flowers and a necklace Again, she's a nine year old girl Ncklace jewelry unless it's like a candy necklace Interesting because you would think flowers and necklacees jewelry is a typically romantic move. So note that Anthona didn't bring this up when she reported four hours after Anthoninette was foundone missing or even for four days. And she only really reported it because a bunch of relatives were like, you have got to tell the police this. You have got to tell them about Emilio and what he did the night before Anthonte disappeared In twenty twenty four, This is thirty eight years after the disappearance. Sadie confirmed This with reporter Crystal Goutiers. Sadie said that she did remember Emo coming over and giving gifts to Anthonet. Anthona sat on his lap and they talked for a while Now this is, of course She was young at this time. Sadie was very, very young. She was just a child as she's remembering this thirty eight years later, But She says she does remember Emo coming over and spending a lot of time with Anthoninette. This is really bad. I mean, this is really bad. So you've got Eo who is a friend of her mother, S same age bracket as her mother Coming over the night she disappears Giving her inappropriate gifts having her sit on his lap and mom neglects to tell the police this. for four days Be generous and say three days That is like you talk about just blaring alarms I mean, this is today, I mean, maybe in nineteen eighty six, people wouldn't recognize this, but I would think I would think so. I mean, today, this is like grooming. I mean, the fact that the relatives urged her to say it means that It's weird for her not to have said it. And And also know, Crystal Gutier has done a lot of reporting on this case. You can find her stuff on YouTube. She should check it out. She's got some good stuff on this disappearance. but yeah, I mean, not great So move forward to april eleventh, nineteen eighty six. So the police bring in Ronald Perry. Ronald Perry is Penny's best friend and they interview him And he tells them that he actually introduced Emo T penny and that he was with Eo when he went by the house to bring Anthonette the flowers. So Sadie will later tell Crystal Gudiirez that while Ronald had been with Emo every other time He had come to the house On that specific occasion When Amo brought the flowers He came alone And it is worth noting that according to offfficial reports Neither Ronald nor Emo ever came by Penny's house again after the disappearance Which is interesting, especially if Ronald is Penny's best friend. Exactly Fast forward, now a couple months This is not good. rightight. We've always said every minute is precious, but when you're going two months with A compleplete cold case. We haven't found any sign of Anthoninette This is not good. So june second, nineteen eighty six Police arrested Wesley Daniels after several children in Anthoninetette's neighborhood reported that he'd been talking to them about picnics and sexually assaulting them Wesley was seen in Anthonette's neighborhood the day of her disappearance and did apparently have a picnic that same day Wesley targeted boys And the children who were with him that day said Anthoninette was not with them. so that lead went nowhere. He's just another sexual predator of children in the neighborhood Her neighborhood We always say this guys, the number of sexual predators out there closed proximity is shocking. Don't go look it up. It will terrify you. You will never want to go outside or let any of your children ever leave the house again. This you would think would be like, oh my gosh, we got the guy. No, noope Not her type. He likes boys and he did in fact have a picnic, the picnic that he tries to entice you to come to, saying that he's going to sexually assault you there. He did have one of those. Anthoninette wasn't there though. We know this because other kids were there. Hopefully they at least arrested him for everything el For that. Yeah R Hopefully one just like, o, okay. J different That's a different prosecutor's episode. Oh man. Yeah, you're right. And I don't want to scare people because the fact remains and this is even worse. know this is going to help not scare you. that the people most likely to abuse your children and the people closest to you So stranger danger Strangers can be dangerous But Typically it happens closer to the home But it's just a fact that there are a lot of sexual predators living near you right now in these cases always confonirm that Now look, if you listen to this case and if you've listened to most cases that we cover disappearances things like this You are probably thinking it is likely that Unfortunately Anthonette did not survive past that first night And the statistics will tell you that unfortunately, most children who are abducted are killed very soon after their abduction But something happens on april twelfth, nineteen eighty seven which throws all of this case into confusion and makes it stand out as a possible real outlier and maybe in some ways, one that despite the fact this happened forty years ago, There may actually be some hope You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet Drivers who switch and save with progressives save over nine hundred dollars on average They make it super simple Pop over to progressive. com Answer some questions And you'll get a quick quote with coverage options tailored to your choices. 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The operator says, Anthonte, where are you? Anthonette, Hello. And at that point, the call Unfortunately, at the time, because the call was only forty seconds long Please were not able to trace it Kenny listened to the call and she believed it was Anthonet's Pase. Okay, I have a practical question If you're in Albuquerque, how do you call the Galluop PD? It's a great question, Alice. If you were in Albuquerque in nineteen eighty six, how would you call the Galluop PD because and I actually This is okay, this is not an ad, by the way Mrses Bret's the greatest friend you'll ever have. Don't befriend her because then it willll take time away that I could spend with her. But she got me a tin can phone, which again, not an ad. We paid good money for this stuff. It's one of those like old school phones that's wired and it's awesome. and I literally set it up today. like it's right here with me T came from. Oh there it is But one of the things I set up on it today is to call nine hundred eleven. because otherwise, it's like a subscription service. the whole point is to protect your children. They can only get phone calls from people who you program their numbers into because like we just said, there's lots of sexual predators out there. And the thing is I can program this phone to call nine hundred eleven because nine hundred eleven is a nationwide system. Anyone call nine eleven, you don't have to put an area code in, right? You don't have to put in two hundred two if you're in Connecticut. and then then nine hundred eleven. No, not at all. five e two, Austin area code. then nine hundred eleven. no, because nine hundred eleven is a nationwide system. Today it is, but in nineteen eighty seven, when this call happened, nine hundred eleven was not a nationwide system That means Whoever made this call would have had to know the phone number to the Gallup PD And remember, we don't have Google. So you can't just jump on and say, you know, what's Gallop PD's number. You might have a yellow pages, but some people believe that because you have to know the number of gallapede This gives way to the fact that this call was legitimate because children in Gallup would have likely memorized some phone number for like a local police station, or they would know to look for that number. And it's not a random police station they called, right? This is the right police station. This is her hometown police station So if she is in Albuquerque, She would have had to memorize that number Or This phone call came in Galluop. Also a possibility alsoso a possibility So the police, even though this call is forty seconds long, the police have only released twenty two seconds of this call to the public And although the caller claims to be in Albuquerque, it's later revealed that the call did originate in Gala Now, why would the person because remember the person who says it's Albuquerque is the caller who identifies herself as Athidette She may have no idea where she is She may have no idea. She may have been told that she was in Albuquerque or whatever it is We have the twenty two seconds of the forty second call that's been made public and we are going to play it Now Police Department. Hello. Heis. I'm Andgereo Aisa. after now the turkey. h. Hello. Anntonette, where are you? Antonette. Hello. What are your thoughts about that, Alice So the voice coming through does sound Like a young Girl. All of that is very suspect to me because she immediately starts screaming. This is nineteen eighty seven. so it's been a year since she's been missing that you survive a year. If this is hurt, you would have survived a year by being incredibly savvy Keeping your head down, probably not making a lot of missteps to draw the ire of your kidnapper She's talking loudly I it, it's not a whisper. She's not speaking in code breathless. She would have been ten at this time. So still a very young child. You can't think about all the things you're going to do I just think you would have had a year to think about how you would do this. and it seems very rushed and hurried and also not the way I would expect a kidnapper like I'm not sure. All of it strikes me as very strange. in the way she was able to get the phone, call what she says, and then how it ends, which is her screaming at the top of her lungs But she would have had a year to think about it. Like, again, you're ten years old, but I think I would have screamed like the address. Yeah, I mean, I just think I don't know what to do. I think It could just be this was her one desperate opportunity And she took it and very quickly was uncovered And She screamed because she was terrified of what was about to happen? It's possible this is a hoax. Of course, that's a possibility People Do Terrible things. hoaxes happen. We've seen that A lot That's a possibility. So it's like a sick prank call and that's because it does happen very quickly. She says her name a couple times Then very quickly, the kidnappers on top. Who said you could use the phone, right? And then the screaming and the hanging out So It could be a hoax. it could absolutely be legitimate. I dont think there's any question it could be legitimate One problem I have is Penny is our verifier for the voice I'll trust Pitt for a lot of reasons And one possibility is that this is of a cover up It's a year later. But if for some reason S she were dead And for some reason, you think the police are getting close You could do a phone call like this and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, she's still alive No, like some people in Savannah Ghrie's mom's case where Some people speculate that the ransom notes are all intended to make it seem like she's still alive and she's really been dead for a while. It's just it's an attempt to sort of throw off the scent That's a possibility as well I mean, it could be a hoax, it could be real. it could be something like that. I don't know. It's hard to say. I wish there was someone else who could confirm. Voice But I H and and maybe this is the optimist in me, I guess this is optimistic. tend to think it's real. I tend to think this is legit. But I mean, it's obviously it's impossible to say. There's like no way we can know. Like that's why I'm like, I want to believe it odds of her getting a phone, remembering the Gallipede number, and she's been dreaming it for a year to like barely get it out and then scrap like my you know to say who could use this phone? Was she in the house or were they like at a gas station? You know, was she like grabs a phone or something like that? I don't know, but the way she's breathless It's really good acting And it sounds like a child which is why I think it's real. because I think it would be really hard to coach a child to act like that. Honestly The man sounds faker to me. The way he says, who told you could use the phone? In some ways sounds like a put on to me But the girl sounds absolutely legit to me. And she does sound young So I definitely think it's a child. But like you said, I mean, it's impossible to know. But this is not the last siding of maybe hurt now I say all this with a caveat This is really interesting because we have a recording. We have her voice, we have someone saying it's her voice Everyone who's ever disappeared, there's a thousand sightings of them that are fake That is just a reality. We've seen it time and again on this show and in any other missing personss case that you've looked at. But there's going to be sidings some people throughout the years who seem to think maybe they have a run in We have Innet So november nineteen eighty nine A man named Clarence Downing reported seeing a girl at a truck stop off Interstate seventy in Wayneesville, Missouri It not is exact close, but nevertheless, they resembled Anthoninette. He said the girl who appeared to be alone at the time was wearing torn jeans, a dirty white t shirt, a red bandana, and a big watch. He described her as acting like she had been punished for something And in some ways, she acted like she was afraid of people This literally could be Anyone anyyone anyone. especially because we're now like three years removed from Anthonte. And when you're nine difference between a nine and twelve year old would be huge. This is not someone who knew her. It's not like it's a family member A random person who probably saw an age progress photo So in nineteen ninety one, which is five years after Anthony's disappearance, Wendy. Who was now ten years old. So I mean just how young these kids were when she disappeared. So Wendy was five at the time. And Wendy's providing more information than her mom is in many ways. She's reinviewed and has a new piece of information for the authorities Remember, we've got the knock on the door That we think we know who that is. Then there's another knock on the door around three AM. This is the second knock at the door Anthonette went to answer the door. Now remember, the story that's been told up to this point is nobody knows anything except Anthonette went to the door. Wendy now says she actually followed closely behind Anthony Anthonette asked who's there? And the person on the other side of the door said, Uncle Joe Now the girls did have and uncle Joe So Anthonette opened the door. And when she did, two men grabbed her and dragged her kicking and screaming into a brown van waiting outside When she was asked why she didn't tell the police this sooner She said she was scared that she would get in two Trouble. Now one thing I'll know Remember The elderly woman six thirty AM later than what Wendy saying But Wendy doesn't know anything about T. She was five years old. My five year old C can't tell Tom H no idea what time it is in the middle of the night The elderly woman said she saw an older model brown truck or van with New Mexico plates pull up to the home around six hundred thirty. So this now jobves with the story that Wendy's telling about that second knock on the door. And if this happened, I'm not doubting Wendy. It's just it is coming five years later. She was only five at the time. If this happened, let's talk about this. This is a very bizarre kidnapping, right? Because the door would have had to been unlocked on the inside and if Wendy is in fact behind them or at least whoever isb they know enough to say a familiarar person's name, whether this was Uncle Joe or not. they know Anthoninette And this family, well enough to know there is an uncle Joe If they know the family well enough to know there's an uncle Joe, they know well enough that there's at least three people in there. The little girls If not a fourth person in there, the mom And who's going to be the one to open the door Maybe they know it's always Anthonte. I don't know. Were they going to grab the first person who opened the door? What if it was Penny, be adult. Would they have shoved past her and gotten to her What about the fact that Wendy, if Wendy remembers this correctly, is standing right behind The person who's grabbed would they not grab her too because she's at the very least going to be a really bad witness against them. So just grab her even if she's not the object of why they're there The whole situation, if this is what happened is Lots of question marks because it may say to Wendy's memory, but it also may go to who would have done this. It seems like someone who was definitely targeting Anthonette. Like that was she was the person they were after. and they like you said, they knew enough to get her Once again Stranger danger. I usually a stranger Uually somebody And an interesting thing to know, if If Anthonet is kicking and screaming, if somebody grabbed me Id certainly be kicking and screaming and whoever was on that phone call who the nine hundred ele call who was claiming to be Anthonette That girl can scream. So you would think whether this is three AM or six thirty AM. You would think this would wake up anyenny think A at the very least, the mom. L, kids can sleep through everything. My kids, they sleep through each other screaming. We've talked about sleep training. All my kids sleep on the same hall, they scream, Do doesn't wake each other up. That's fine But mom. But then again, if you're thinking, okay, mom's been drinking all night Hmm, she came home at midnight and it's three or six AM It should have worn off enough that you'd be able to hear kicking and screaming Unless she did get home at three hundred thirty, completely wasted, passed out and sleeps through any sort of kicking and screaming. Since it does seem like everything we have so far, Anthonette was the target of all of this, whoever it may be That actually, to me, gives more credence to the fact that she's still alive because she probably wasn't being held ransom because no ransom note came and Penny had no money. Right? They all slept in the same bed, they lived in apart. Like it's not like they were flouting how much money they had because I don't think they had a lot of money Dad didn't get some ransom note There's no indication that they would try to extort him for money So it wasn't for money, then it was probably for her spepecifically, whether it was to abuse her or to traffic her But you would have to keep her alive for that purpose, which gives more credence to that nine hundred and eleven call that she could be alive to make that call November of nineteen ninety one, a waitress at a restaurant in Carson City, Nevada believed she may have seen Anthonette. This is again five years later though. Now, this is reported by the Charlie proroject The waitress described a girl in her early teens who was sitting with an quote, unkempt couple The girl kept dropping her fork, and each time the waitress picked it up for her, she squeezed the waitress's hand After they all left, someone found a note under the girl's plate that read Help me call police. I mean that's Regardless of who this is, that's somebody. It's Carson City, Nevada. It's five years later. hard to say it's Anthoninette But Somet Strange was going on here. And it seems to be someone who was in danger who was being kept alive by this couple. I mean I think that's where we're at right now is is she alive or she not alive? Was she immediately murdered? Was she not immediately murdered? Is the call her or is it not her I don't know how much stock you can put into these sidings But this one, unlike the other one, which is like I saw a girl with ripped jeans, this is actually a girl who's in some sort of trouble Yeah, if this is not Anthinetette, this girl is definitely in crisis Right. So later Despite these tips coming in, it's still cold. So december sixteenth, nineteen ninety two An episode of Unsolved Mysteries featuring Anthonette's cases aired. and when it's aired, more than a hundred tips come in as a result of that episode. Unfortunately Most tips are just useless. This is just something every law enforcement officer knows Tip lines are great. We want people to call in tips, but unfortunately the vast majority of things that come into a tip line are just trash. ninety percent of them. Maybe more. Now, the good news is you only need one. You know, you only need one good tip to crack open a case. and that's a good thing because you're probably get ninety nine that are worthless. And in this case, we have a hundred tips that we don't. Nothing comes of it In nineteen ninety four is reinterviewed by the FBI This time, she tells the FBI that she was not asleep when that second knock happened that in fact, she heard the knock Around three and thirty or four And Anthoninette didn't just decide to go answer the door She told Anthony to answer the door She says that when she went to check on Anthonette about a half an hour later She could not Find her Now note If that's true, she didn't exactly start looking for her But It is almost certainly the case that the three hundred and thirty to four o'clock timeline is wrong because she said it was getting light when she heard the knock That would conflict with a three hundred thirty and four o'clock timeline, but would fit much better with the seven thirty timeline from the neighbor who saw the same kind of van that her other daughter supposedly saw and would fit better with Penny then waking up thirty minutes later. looking for Anthonette and going to search for her in the neighborhood I don't know a world where I would ever send any of my children to go open the door for anyone and certainly not if I think it's in the middle of the night Yeah, I mean, it makes you question things. I mean, I havem an eight year old He knows he can't answer the door for anyone. And I actually think if I were asleep and someone were ringing the doorbell and I told him to answer the door, I think he'd be like, what Are you sure you told me not to answer the door? Like he would doubt me if I asked him to do that. And certainly if I were asking him to do that. I wouldn't wait thirty minutes to go see why He hasn't come back because remember, by Penny's story, all three girls are in bed with her. So Anthonette should have been, I guess, coming back to her bed as opposed to somewhere else. So on april eighteenth, nineteen ninety nine, Penny Kaadita would die at age forty six from cirrhosis of the liver. And when the FBI learned that she was dying, they actually rushed to the hospital because they believed they might get a deathbed confession from her. But by the time they arrived, she had already passed away That is the end of our timeline. Unfortunately, that is twenty seven years ago, but that's the last significant thing that's happened in this case It doesn't mean this case is unsolvable, though, particularly in a world where Penny might still be alive. That brings us to our theories My family's favorite season is here That's pool season. Now that it's getting warm, my kids are asking to go swimming every single day, which means swimsuits are a really important part of our wardrobe. And that's why I turn to Mnow for all of my family swimsuit needs. Minno is a family lifestyle brand that embraces clean lines, simple details, and crisp seaside breezes The Mino customer is one that values quality, comfort, and style. 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So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive dot com Find a rate that works for you with the name Y your price tool. Progressive Casualty inssurance compompany and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law So the first one is Everyone. In fact, the police probably thought that's why they waited eight hours before they took this missing person's report seriously Is that Anthonette ran away So there are some people who suggest that Anthonte ran away. They point to the fact that she had a challenging home life and She had immense responsibility on her She was only nine, but she felt like she had to take care of her sisters. She's being asked to go answer the door in the middle of the night. There's a lot. The world is on her shoulders Now this theory holds very little water though, for various reasons. First, none of Anthonette's clothing or belongings were missing So you would have to believe that she ran away with nothing but the nightgown she wore to bed that night. So this is unlike the Asia Dgree case where Asia did leave with a backpack of things. N not a ton of things, but honestly probably what you think a nine year old girl would take a shirt some candy bars and whatnot That's not the case here. Anthoninette left with nothing secondcond Anthonette was reportedly extremely protective of her sisters and she took care of them. So even the sisters, you know, all these years later, remember her as a second mother You know, she didn't act like an evil stepsister to them or anything like that. She loved them. She cared for them So it's hard to believe that Anthonette would have left in the night abandoning these girls that she loved so much and honestly was probably taken care of that night. Third. Anthanette was just a child. It's really hard to believe that she would run away in the middle of the night without being spotted or any evidence of being sound We talked about this with the AsA case, how the runaway theory, which it looked like Right? She had a backpack of things and people saw her walking down the road was so bizarre because of her age Runaways, real thing not at nine years old It is typically a little bit older. It's getting into the teen years. and or much younger and they're like They think they're in a fairy tle But nine, she's old enough to be taking care of her sisters. She's actually not at the prime age to be running away and no indication is that she ran away because she looks like a little kid. If she were standing at a bus stop, someone would have noticed. Theation degree is a great example of that N sure as bizarre as that diseience was People saw her. multiple people saw her walking down the road and they Exactly that. They were like, What in the world is this kid doing out the middle of the night She left behind evidence. We found the wrappers and all the other items in the shed where she had taken shelter from the rain. So yeah, I mean Not only would you have to believe she did this des spot everything I said You have to believe she's so good at it. She just disappeared in the thin air. And I think that's Hly unlikely of all with no minies. This is not a runaway case. That's not what happed. And that brings us to theory number two, which is that Anthonette was a victim of a stranger abduction. As we've said, this is rare, but nevertheless, it is a popular theory And she was abducted at her door by a complete stranger The motive is not clear, but if you believe the phone call was really her, Some would say she was probably forced into the sex trade in some way or another. The problem with this theory is that number one, Anthonte likely wouldn't have opened the door for a stranger. T A stranger would have had to have just knocked on her door at three o'clock in the morning and hopes that she answered it. That seems unlikely And her sisters have said that they wouldn't have opened the door unless Penny had told them to, which we now know Kenny did indeed D And she would have had to have opened the front door, seen the person or persons and unlocked the screen door them have access to her. That is if you believe. The screen door was actually locked. but either way I think the chance is this is a stranger abotion. incredibly slim. This is almost certainly someone that she knew. And that gets us to our last year, which I think is probably what happened So the most likely scenario, like Brett said, is that Anthonette was abducted by someone that she knew. Anthonette would have been far more likely to open that door had she known the person And since there were no signs of forced entry, she likely did open it and probably opened two doors, so had time to rethink it. or to really get a close look and say, you know what, I actually don't know who you are. Then there was Wendy's recollection. Wendy was five at the time, but she heard someone at the door say it was Uncle Joe So though the girl's actual Uncle Joe was ruled out as a suspect, maybe someone knew that they had an uncle Joe and used that name, that person to lure Anthoninette into opening the door Reportedly, Eo, Ronald, and Penny have all failed polygraphs. Additionally, Penny reportedly offered some level of confession to the FBI saying quote. What if me and Eo did this? would we both go to prison Not a confession, but a strange thing to say when your nine year old daughter is gone without a trace. There's a reason the FBI was expecting a deathbed confession Yeah. Now, Penny's story continuously changed, leading to more suspicion. We've always said this and it's really hard to keep a lie straight. It's hard to keep a truth straight sometimes, but really hard to keep a lie straight, especially over time. And her story kept changing. That's one of the hallmark signs of an untruth So some suggested that Penny sold Anthonette for drugs or because Anthonette was a difficult child. Honestly, we can't find anything that suggests Anthonette was actually difficult because I don't know how Penny would go party all the time if she didn't have her babysitter around all the time because she has pretty young kids. They're like five, six at the time Anthonette is her key to freedom actually because she's around to take care of the little girls. I don't think necessarily it was that Anthonette was difficult. Of course, if you are to blame or You are the reason she's gone. It's easy cover up and say, you know, she was she was difficult And maybe it wasn't for drugs, mayaybe it was for something Unfortunately, Brett and I have seen a lot Maybe it was to make money on sex trafficking. Maybe she was lending her out other people Maybe she was supposed to be returned Maybe Eo was supposed to take her to another man and she was supposed to be returned and she wasn't, which is why she reported her at eleven because maybe she was supposed to be back by seven or eight. and the downside to doing the job that Alice and I both had as you do see the very worst of humanity and There are women who will let their boyfriends abuse their daughters That is something that happens Ronald was supposedly her best friend. Emo obviously had interest in H interest in Anthonyte I don't actually think this is much of a mystery. I think it's a mystery to the extent of What ended up happening to her Mom did this. Mom allowed this to happen. She wasn't the one who grabbed her into the van, but she did this and unfortunately, we see this all the time. Now we have digital evidence of this. They didn't have cell phones back then, but we see these texts all the time. Facebook messages. They're not even texts. We're talking using Facebook messaging where some Living up in New York messages a mom somewhere far away. Nevada, in fact and says that's a really cute girl on your lap in your profile picture. How about You let me take her, show her the world for a little bit Mom says, what's your price They fly there and we have seen this exact case I've changed I've changed the locations and I've changed the exact messages, but that's we've seen that exact case and it's moms who do it The the most disgusting thing ever when it's the mom, we've seen grandmothers do it too But I think Penny planand this becausecause I think she told the person to show up in the middle of the night when hopefully there were fewer witnesses and she absolutely told Anthona to go open the door to make sure it was Anthoninette. And I think the fact that this went south, I think something did go south Maybe the plan wasn't exactly. mayaybe she wasn't planning like a total abduction or something like that. But the fact that it went total south and the police got involved and the FBI got involved is the only reason her younger two daughters weren't trafficked. No, I think that's Probably likely. I think you're one hundred percent right. I think in my mind, I think she probably did not intend Anthoninette to be kidad forever just because she was so useful to her. You know, I think she probably wanted her back, but I think she was willing to lend her out notot to be crassed, but I mean that's essentially what happens in these cases and I think it's possible that Eo O Ronald whichever one it was who facilitated this. It could have gone wrong and Anthonet died Or could have beenent he didn't want to give her back And he says no. And Penny's in a position where what's she going to do? Tell the police? She going tell the police that she did this whole thing and you go back to the what if me and Emo did this, would we both go to prison I mean To me, there's just no question She made a deal with Eo. And was to get a cut of it or he was going to return her and Eo contacted his buddies who did it. They were like, yeah, sure. We'll take her for a couple days and return her. Not, We're going to get her a lot more money Now whether that was actually her, I think she was taken to be trafficked because is very lucrative at nine So I think there absolutely is a possibility that was her on the phone call It's a really rough life And look, you know, sex trafficking is always a sexy theory whenever someone disappears, but usually it's no one who would ever be sex trafficked. Sex traffickers don't kidnap wealthy women off of cruise ships That doesn't happen They don't Take up. women off of Rodeo drive. and you know, get them addicted to heroin and traff them. That doesn't happen. But what they do are these marginalized people who people don't care that much about kids from families who' do things with a mom who'll do things like sell her or give her away Those are the kind of people who absolutely are trafficked and This is a scenario that absolutely could happen And think about this, you're nine years old. you have no money. You have the nightgown that you're wearing. You know what your mom's up to. She's old enough. to know what her mom's up to If people are coming in all hours of the day as the neighbor saying, Your first thought is, okay, mom is turning tricks to be able to afford her habit. The more sinister one we don't have evidence at this because the only people in the house really were veryy young girls who may not have known, Anthonet, who's gone and Penny with what's happened to Anthony It's possible that maybe at first The people who were coming all hours of the night, by the way, hours of the night being they were coming for sex for mom. But then enough guys were like, you know what I like I'm younger. Maybe this had been happening for quite some time. And I just want to know, Penny died at forty six of cirrhosis. Penny wasn't at the bar. letting off some steain Penny had at least an incredibly serious alcohol problem And she probably had a pretty serious drug problem as well So this is the perfect storm. For something like this And I hate that. I mean this's not a conclusion we want to reach. that the mother of a nine year old is likely responsible for her disappearance either because she knew she was going to disappear or it just she knew what was going to happen and it got out of hand. But That's what happened to me there's really no question here. And it is my hope Myon's their hope that there is a forty nine year old woman out there doesn't really remember who she was because these terrible horrific things happened to her when she was young And she was able to get out of that. And she's made lie for herself And she has no idea that she's Anthony That's my sincere hope. and I hope she's has a wonderful life and is happy and has overcome the horrific things happen during her past I acknowledge that is not the most likely outcome. evenven if she weren't murdered growing up in this environments You can only imagine the things that could happen This is not an uplifting case. And I'll say explicitly what we see often happen because I think people talk in Honestly, such fairy tale terms about and I don't use that term lightly because I've actually heard a defense attorney say that about child sex trafficking. What likely happened to her if she did live and was not killed within minutes, hours, or even years They would have gotten her addicted to drugs because that's the way you get someone submissive in order to do these horrendous things as anyone You're treated like an animal, you're probably locked up. You have someone who quite literally enslaves you. You're not free to go anywhere yourself Where could she go anyways? She's nine years old. The only person in the world who should be looking for her is not going to look for her because she is the reason she's in the situation she is So she would be plied with drugs and alcohol from the age of nine, which will do an incredible number of course on your emotional and mental and physical abilities. And she would only be attractive for the people that she is being trafficked to. until a certain age it would be in her teens basically By her twenties, she would probably now be a liability. So at best they kick her off the side of the road and tell her to go just figure it out and she's homeless and finds some somehow in her drug addled state is somehow able to come out of it O worse, someone who she is trafficked to murders her And Who cares Right? Or she has a drug overdose. She's just another homeless person who died of a drug overdose or she kills herself I mean, the outcomes are all horrific It's one of the reasons that fighting this kind of thing is so important. and needs to be a focus. And I think One thing that bothers me a little bit about what we see in true crime sometimes how sensationalized sex trafficking is It's not sensational. It's not romantic. It's not A movie It's dirty and it's awful. And it's horrific. And and it's targetill literally dirty. It's disgusting. disgusting. The raids of these motel rooms are the most disgusting things you've ever seen. You guys, you know, you've laughed along with me and with my bed buug episode when I accidentally rented a hotel room with bed bugs we laughed. When you walk into these hotel rooms, they smell like death because they are riddled with fleas and bed bugs and the most disgusting things and showers are a luxury that you're not afforded And it is a horrendous site We're not talking about Like gold plated bed that you get to, you know sit in your Beautiful ivory tower in It is. Horrendous No, it is. It's terrific and it's something that we should continue to fight. We actually have a Ligor Brief episode coming up this week as we record this about an organization that child sex trafficking. If you haven't heard that yet, go over to legal briefs, listen to it There are a lot of different organizations you can support work in this area. And if anything good can come out of this story, it should be that. Commit yourself to helping. If you can help, if you've got resources you can give and you're looking for, I know I'm always looking for something to support, right? L What's a good charity I can give to? How can I make a difference? Well, these people that are doing this work. They need the help, they need the resources. There's so many of these folks who are in this situation. and it takes a lot. It takes a lot to overcome this to overcome the addiction to start a new life, to get an education, to reintegrate into society. So Think about that when you're thinking about where to give if you're able to give. These organizations that fight child sex trafficking or and sex trafficking in general or organizations you should support So if Anthonette were still alive today, she'd be forty nine years old Anyone with information is encouraged to contact your local FBI office or the Gallet PD. Their number is five hundred five, eight six three, nine three six five. That's five hundred five eight, six three nine, three, six, five. I pray and hope that she is alive and well and hopefully has amnesia and doesn't remember the horrendous things. that her mother did to her. and that she is living a wonderful life. But For her sister's sake and for all who love her, I hope she is found So that There can be healing done here. So this was So sad, but unfortunately not a standalone case. It is but one of many, many cases like it. And We've done a lot of these cases. We're going to continue to do these cases. I know these cases are a bit of a downer. They're not the fun who dones, they're not even the fun disappearances, they're hard and they're difficult But I really appreciate you guys sticking bias. we talk about these other missing a murdered indigenous women, missing people peopleeople who are taken advantage of doesn't really matter who they are, where they come from. You know, we need to do everything we can to support them. and I really appreciate you guys continuing to support us as we talk about these cases. If you have thoughts about this, shoot us an email, prosecutorspod at gmail. com add prosecutors Pod for all your social media. Join us on the gallery, which is our fan run fan created Facebook page. You can discuss this And any other case that you're interested in, if you are interested in watching us record these episodes, Pro three dollars a month you can do that on Patreon. if you want to get episodes early and ad free, if you hate ads We now have two ways you can do that. You can do it on Patreon Al also for three dollars a month O you can subscribe on Apple subscriptions and get them that way if you don't like Patreon, but as always, everything we do will always be available to you eventually four Ready All right, Alice. Well, I think we're going to go ahead and sign out for today. This has been a heavy one, but do you have anything else you want to share before We say goodbye. No, thank you for everyone who sees something to say something. I'm glad those people who think they saw Anthonette came forward because whoever they saw, that person was in crisis, whether it was Anthonette or not And unfortunately, like we said, there are many anthonettes out there like that. So if you see something strange, just use your eyes. If we were all tighter knit and watching out for each other, I do think that these predators would have a much harder time continuing this trade. Amen, Alice, as always, the best thing about Alice is we always end these episodes and I ask anything else say? She always says no, but and then she says the most profound thing that's said in the entire episode. and that's why she's the best K your host and all of podcasting All right guys, we'll be back next week with a new case, but until then I'm Breittt. And I'm Alice We are the prosecutors We got our last swag. Guys, we got buttons for Crimecon. Yay