Reflections and Future Investigation

Rot Patio sets the scene, the Rot Grill steals the show. For a limited time during july fourth, extra big deals at Lowe's, Get two twelve byx twelve inch square patio stones for only three dollars. Plus, save one hundred dollars one on a select Char Royal Performance sereries four Burner gas Grill. Now just one hundred seventy nine dollars All you need now is good company. Our best lineup is here at Les. Vallet through seventy six, seelection varies by location, while supplies last excludes Alask and Hawai. Every day as a small business owner feels like solving a puzzle One moment, you're cruising along, and the next, there's a shipping snag that has you scrambling. But here's a surprise you will like. With Progressive, small business owners save thirteen percent on their commercial auto insurance when they pay in full. Go ahead, surprise yourself. Get a quote in as little as eight minutes at progressivecommerercial d. comot Progressive casualty inssurance Company and affiliates. disiscounts not available in all states or situations This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies Try it at progressive. com Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, potential savings will vary notot available in all states Hi, I'm Juliette Coweie, a retired FBI profiler and host of the true crime podcast, The Consult, Real FBI Profilers If you're fascinated with true crime and criminal profiling, then join us as we discuss real cases and examine the behavior exhibited before, during, and after the commission of the crime You can listen to the consult wherever you get your podcast. It's as close as it gets to being in the room with the FBI's behavioral analysis unit I'm Bret And I'm Alice And we are the prosecutors Today, on'm the prosecutors It is one of Australia's greatest tragedies But was it also Murder. We discuss The fire at Luna Park Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my slim co host. Alice Thank you. You'reost waiting for you to notice that I've only been eating half a bag of chocolate chips a night instead of a full bag. Well, you know, that was suggested by Renette. so you should thank her. Though she notes that in Africaans It means clever And in German This is a little bit more appropriate. It means terrible So I'm not sure which one she's going far But we'll take it either way. I'll take it. It's kind of like it's in the ear of the beholder sort of thing. It's true And today we have a terrible case. We have a slim case today that we're going terrible case. disiscussing It's not in Germany. At least One episode, probably two episodes I would think This is one that's been suuggested to us by our Australian. listeners for a long time and I had this vague knowledge this, had no idea Number one, how terrible it was. Number two, how many twists and turns there were in this case. If you're from Australia, No doubt, you are familiar with the fire at Luna Park, sometimes called the ghost train fire and all of the controversy and tragedy that surrounds that case. But that's one that we're going to talk about today. despite How truly horrific This entire incident is No, it truly is, especially when you look at the setting, it's almost like the worst movie you could write. It takes place in a beloved amusement park. There are bright lights, It's fravolity and fun. It's young kids who are out kind of just barely testing the limits of adolescence being at a park without their parents for the first time. and there's like final destination stuff with near misses. and complete Unfortunately, bullseye non misses that lead to one of the biggest tragedies, I think you will have ever heard of Worst still, Brett, is of course, all the twisting turns, just like the ride that come after the fact because if this couldn't be more tragic The more you learn about what may have happened, the more tragic the case gets. That's absolutely true. And if you listen to this and you're interested in it, There's a fantastic documentary put out by ABC Australia called exposed the Ghost trarain fire And it came out on Netflix a few years ago. I missed it somehow But it's now available on YouTube for free So if you're interested in this case, if you listen to this story, And you want to learn more. If you're watching this live or if you watch it later on YouTube when we probably release this video, we're gonna start releasing these videos about us recording live. so I should know Alice, you know. Brush my hair. Alice looks amazing every time we record an episode. I'm like a tragedy, but you know, whatever. There's some just incredible photographs of this fire, some great recreations We're talking about a fire here. We're talking about a fire that happened at an amusement park. Some of the great tragedies in history are fires in public places. Some of you heard of like the coconut Grove fire that I think happened in Boston. There was can't remember the name of the fire, but G White was performing at this club only about twenty years ago Huge fire killed a lot of people and you see this every now and then. and in this case you have a situation where peopleeople are at a place where you should be having all the fun in the world, an amusement park. just a great place to hang out with friends, you know, have that first taste of freedom if you're a child in this absolutely Herrific fire occurs and we're going to talk about it, we're going to talk about what caused it. We're going to talk about whether or not the official story is actually inccorrect And we're going to try and reach some sort of conclusion. this case because it is so tragic is you're going to see Legends have grown up around this case. This takes us back to nineteen seventy nine and there are echoes of the satanic panic with this case as you're going to see. And so we're going to talk about that stuff as well. But I think that's enough introduction. Alice, are you ready? to dive in Unfortunately, yes, let's go Alice has been trying to put this off for a while because you know, it is a tragic case and I feel like You know I don't think we were like this when we started. I don't know if it's that we've added more children or our children have gotten older or we've gotten More I'm not sure what it is. Tnder hearted. hereere's my theory on this I think the weight, you never quite forget the cases you try, in a lot of ways, the cases that we dive into, even though we didn't try these cases ourselves, they become a part of the fabric of who you are. And so you carry with you, this is why like old wearried prosecutors, they like carry on their backs the memories of all the cases that they've prosecuted and all the trauma that comes with it I think we have a bit of that with all the cases we've carried of like three hundred episodes of stories that have become woven into the fabric of our souls because when you look at these photos, when you read all of the evidence and the police reports and the things that come out after the fact, I do think they become embedded within you. So I do think we literally are more weary because These are heavy cases and they become a part of you and I don't want them to not be a part of me. because I want these victims to be remembered and I want them to kind of endure past their time because there is meaning to their lives So we're talking about Luna Park here in Australia, but Luna Park is actually a product of the good old USA The original Luna Park opened in nineteen oh three in Coney Island, New York, pererhaps the most famous amusement park. in the world. It was started by two men named Frederick Thompson and Elmer Dundee and This was the most impressive and successful of the three amusement parks on Cony Island, sort of made Island And as you know, at the time, the turn of the twentieth century, the early nineteen hundreds, one of the things that's happening is electric lights and they totally bought into that In fact, they feel this amusement park with electric lights, two hundred fifty thousand of them. You can only imagine at that time for so many people who had probably the barest experience with electricity, seeing something like that, just the experience was probably overwhelming. It had a grand lagoon. and a spectacle of rides including a trip to the moon. And that's where the name came from Luna It was massively successful and it inspired similar parks around The globe in december nineteen twelve An American company, the Greater JD Williams Amusement Company brought Lunaart to Melbourne. And then after an initial success, another location was set up in Adelaide in nineteen. but there were some issues there and the Adelaide location wasn't able to stay open. And so Herman Phillips and his brother, A Abrahams went in search of a new spot for the theme park So they identified a site in North Sydney and signed a twenty year lease for this new theme park Loona Park opened in Sydney on october fourth nineteen thirty five And as you can imagine, it was an immediate hit. The park was designed using the art Dco style popular at the time, and it featured popular rides that were relocated from the Adelaide location It was run by showman, David Atkins as well as Ted Hawkins and Arthur Barton This park boomed, especially during World War II, when American servicemen began frequenting the park with their girlfriends Unfortunately, the park began to develop an unsavory reputation at that time The large number of soldiers at the park also drew sex workers to the area And additionally, there were fights between American sailors and Australian troops at Luna Park The park was also forced to dim its attractive neon lights so as to not become an easy target for Japanese bombings So this is so interesting, like a moment in time, right? If you remember during World War two, there were blackout times, right? People had to turn off all their lights or black out their windows so that from above, enemy planes couldn't see lights and know that this was a place to bomb. And with two hundred fifty thousand lights, you can imagine that would absolutely be a target The very hallmark of Luna Park was even quite literally dimmed at this time. And look, this is one of the reasason people in Australia came to love Luna Park. It was a part of their history. It had been there forever and had survived things like World War And it's amazing. If you look at it where it's located, if you go and look this up It's right on. The Sydney Harbor basically across from the Sydney Opera house incredibly valuable property. On at this time could that piece of property be an amusement park? Today, if things were different, it would be multiillion dollar condos or some you know, massive, super valuable construction But it was just a different time back then. and so they're putting this up ride on the harbor and actually that may come to play a part in what we're going to see because Now, they built this amusement park and you might think, well, you buy an amusement park. You probably own that land. I surely you wouldn't invest all that money. but in fact This is crown land, which means it's state owned land. they have a twenty year lease And it's one of those things where that's going to be reevaluated at various times and there may be other people, other investors who want to come in and maybe they don't necessarily want to do this whole amusement park thing. And you see that as history moves forward. So we have World War two. ends and those of us in the United States, we think of Pearl Harbor and there's this sort of vague notion that maybe the Japanese They could have maybe invaded Hawaii, you know, the threats the American mainland have always been Pretty slim because of the oceans that separate us from our various enemies, but for Australia The Japanese are right there and the danger from Japan was very real. The threat of invasion was very real. And this is a moment in time that you see, but that war ends The Allies win, we move on. It's the nineteen fifties. things are booming, things are changing And a group called Atkins and Hopkins purchases Luna Park. from the Philips brothers and decides to refurbish it, bring it into the modern era. This is a time where families are growing. it's the boom after the wars An amusement park is very valuableably think about Disneyland and all that that's coming along in the same time in the United States. So they're doing that. They're traveling the world looking for inspiration. They're visiting amusement parks in the U.S, the Netherlands, Germany, and Britain And throughout the nineteen fifties and sixties, they're constantly adding new rides and attractions to the park By nineteen sixty nine, the park is sold again. this time to World Trade Center Party Limited who had plans to build an international trade center in its place, sort of Interesting, so as I said, This is some really valuable land. It's right on the harbor Maybe an amusement park isn't the best use of this land. And in nineteen sixty nine, you have this company that moves in and basically says, hey It's f to move home. Musement parks are great, but seriously, we really just going to leave an amusement park here. Let's build a trade center. This is right around the time when New York is starting to build the World Trade Center the two towers that eventually would be destroyed on nine and eleven. and similar thing. They're thinking, let's do that here as well, right on the harbor. This is the perfect place for it And this is in nineteen sixty nine, but the plan is rejected by the government, the government and this is frankly kind of rare for the sixties because you see So much, beautiful architecture Beautiful buildings. You know right now, the Kicks are playing Madison Square Garden And it's a great place to play a sport Beautiful, whatever What they destroyed to put that there O Penn station in New York, this beautiful, extraordinary building They tear it down pen stations now underground And they put Madison Square Garden on top of it. It's like, what were you thinking? And we see that around the country and around the world. But here, the Australian government saying, no, you know, look, there's a lot of history here. We're not going to just tear this down to build this newew World Trade Center. And so they reject the plan and really the only thing the people who bought it can do is to continue to run an amusement park. But Asima exxpect World Trade Center Party Limited is not an amusement park operating entity. They bought this land for other purposes And In the nineteen seventies, they actually hire a group of artists including a famous avant Garde, sort of nineteen sixty seventies artist named Martin Sharp, another man named Peter Kingston. They're hired to sort of redecorate The park And while they're doing all this, the owners are struggling to negotiate a long term lease and there's a reason for that. Imagine you own this property. You don't necessarily want to run an amusement park. but you'd like to offload your lease to someone else. Well, if you don't have long term lease, are you going to be able to do that? Does anybody want to buy your literal week two week lease that they have No, you want to get some sort of long term deal here, and this land is highly desired by a lot of different people So these various entities are negotiating with the government. Who's going to own this land? Who's going to continue to lease this land? Who's going to run this land? And all of these negotiations are going on in nineteen seventy nine. into the summer, of nineteen seventy nine, but they all would come to a screeching O a tragic night at Louna Park resulted in the death of seven patrons includluding six children And the park was closed Every call to your firm is a moment of trust, a potential client who needs help, an existing client with an urgent update, a referral you can't afford to lose. And if no one answers, they move on That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, the smarter way to run your firm's communications. Quo QUO brings every call, text, and voicemail into one place with twenty forty seven coverage, intelligent routing, and AI powered summaries that keep your whole team prepared and accountable. Qo is the number one business phone system on G two, with over three thousand reviews built for how modern teams actually work More than ninety thousand businesses from solo operators to growing firms rely on Quo Quo's speed to lead routing makeakes sure new client calls never go unanswered even after hours. A twenty forty seven AI receptionist and local numbers that boost answer rates mean your firm stays competitive whether your team is in court in a meeting or out of the office. Quo isn't just a phone system. It's a smarter way to run your firm e automatically locks every call, generates summaries, and highlights next steps. So no detail ever gets missed. and it integrates with tools your firm already uses like Clio Lwmatics, my case and Hubspot Be the firm that answers first. Try Qo for free. pllus, get twenty percent off your first six months when you go to quQo dot com slash prosecutors. That's Quo dot com slash prosecutors. Quo. No missed calls, no missed opportunities So if you're like me, you are always thinking about the next event you have to get an outfit together for. whether I'm in court, whether I'm going to a party, a birthday party, a beach party, anything like that, I feel like I'm always looking for the right outfit. The thing is, my tastes are a little bit expensive and I hate paying retail price for everything Which is why I'm so excited that our advertiser, Poshmark is here to help all of us who are looking for great pieces, but at a fraction of their retail price. When I first started looking on Poshmark, I thought it's just gonna be a bunch of fast fashion junk, but no, I had my eye on this beautiful Tucker Nuck dress for the longest time. I just couldn't get myself to pay full freight And guess what? It was right there on Poshmark. I immediately texted all my girlfriends and told them I found it, bought it, and wore it to a party the next week. You will love using Poshmark. It feels too good to be true, but it is seriously the secret that we're all using to make sure that we get the outfits that we want but not paying full freight. Poshmark is the leading fashion reale marketplace shaped by real people in real style Millions of new and pre loved items from daily wardrobe staples to vintage in luxury fashion Archive worthy pieces you thought you miss forever. Crent Essentials, one of one vintage finds. It's all there New deals and styles are listed every day, so don't wait. Download the Phmark app and use code prosecutors when you sign up to get ten dollars off your first purchase. Or shop now at poshmark. com slash prosecutors and get ten dollars off your first purchase. That's Phmark PO S H M A R k dot com slash prosecutors. For a small business owner, every day is full of surprises. Some great, some not so great. likeike when a client cancels their order at the last minute. But here's a surprise you will like Progressive provides small business owners with thirty customizable coverage options to help keep their business going strong Go ahead, surprise yourself Get a quote in as little as eight minutes at progressivecommercial. com Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates and third party insurerures, coverage is not available in all states or for all vehicles and coverage selections. Truckers aren't just moving goods. They're making sure bakers get their chocolate chips and hotels get their tiny soaps. trruckers can't do this if they're not on the road That's why Progressive has over three hundred and sixty heavy truck employees to help truckers stay on time and on track Quote truck insurance today in as little as eight minutes at progressivecommerercial. com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates Insurance isn't one size fits all That's why customers have enjoyed progressives name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options Visit progressive. com Find a rate that works for you with the nameame Your Price tool. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law So if you can't already tell as we're going to dive into the timeline, there's a whole lot more to this than your typical arson case than a typical tragedy case in fact So we're not going to start day or two before this tragic fire We're actually going to go back a couple of years so we can get the full picture of what might have happened that night In nineteen seventy seven, local council and the fire Brigade inspected the ghost train ride and found that it was a fire risk. That same year, they also received advice from a Sydney design consultant to install a sprinkler system in the ride. Now following this inspection, management was given two years to quote adopt ten fire protective measures Now some of these measures included installing an emergency lighting, marking emergency exits, and adding a hose reel inside this ride Just You know, it's really interesting. obbviously, you have to have time to rectify whatever risks are found, but it's interesting that like something as simple as just installing sprinklers or maybe an emergency exit sign, you get a two year runway to do this. So even though Something very, very damaging can happen here. It's a fire risk. The park still has a whole two years runway to install these protective measures. There's an old saying that regulations are written in blood And the meaning of that is typically we don't See changes to regulatory systems We don't see the enforcement of a lot of regulations until a tragedy happens. This reminds me I've talked about this before, the El Farro disaster, which is a shipwreck. The podcast, I forget the name of it, but it's Amazon Audible Eclusive podcast. was actually nominated for podcast of the year. I don't know if you notice that Alice A crrime Con. didnn't win, but you know As we know very well. honor to be nominated, even if you don't come out on top. So that podcast talks about the Alfaro and one of the reasons that tragedy happened was because the Coast Guard had inspected it. and had all of these safety concerns There're all of these things that the ship was decades behind in safety. and they kept pushing back Well, okay, we'll give you five years to do it. Five years came and went. they Oh we'll give you another five years. They kept pushing back how long it was going to take for the to actually have to do these repairs, then you have the disaster. And of course, many of the things that failed were exactly the things that people pointed to. And I think it's important to talk about this aspect of this case because typically when you talk about this, what you hear discussions of whether or not this is arson, whether or not this is intentional. You hear a lot of blaming And it's worth noting, and I think it's important to remember Whatever caused this, there were some real failures by the owners. the operators and the government when it came to this facility There were obvious problems. insspectors had pointed out those problems But the government did not force the owners of this property to make these changes They did not force them to install them in a timely manner. and the people who were in charge since they weren't being forced to do it, they't it either And this will become important later on. Whatever you think the actual cause of the fire is These are steps that could have mitigated the disaster that we're going to save So the two years pass. now we're in May of nineteen seventy nine. And of course, as Brett said, management fails to implement any fire safety measures at all But instead of taking any kind of punishment or anything, they just get a twelve month extension. This is like key regulatory red tape, right? Just do it, do it when you can And There we have it. I will note this though. There's going to be paperwork around this and there's also going to be people who know you have to check boxes, like you have to have a fire check. justust like your elevators. Whenever you get an elevator, you see like them sign, right? This elevator wasn't inspected on this day. whether you want to buy into conspiracy theories or not, This is not secret that there are fire inspections. and there will be people who know that there were fire risks identified on this ride And also that management was given two years. and did not implement those measures and given an extension And let's say just th it out there But you're someone who has an interest in this property, doesn't really want it to be in an amusement park or you want to control it and put things in place that you can make money off of, even if it stays in amusement park And you think, hey You know, a really good way to get the current owners out Move those people out is if there were a fire on the property And you're thinking What space would be a good place to have a fire Well, if you happen to know that one of the rods has been sightited multiple times as lacking any kind of fire suppression measures and is a particularly fire at risk location, that might be the place you target if you were going to do something like So I think Alice makes a really good point. This was well known by a lot of people. in government bothoth low level and high level people They would have known about this, they would have known This is a circumstance that could lead to some sort of danger And it's one of those things. you just see this and you think, Why didn't they just shut down the Ghost sting? Why didn't they just say, sorry, you can't have the ghost train until You fix this? Well, look. The Gush trarain was probably the most popular ride And we're going to talk about everything that was in the Ghost Train later on. This is probably the most popular ride at the park. I mean, it's called the Ghost Train. You can imagine what it was like. And It was said that if you went to Lina Park You had to ride the ghost train. It was the main thing. It kind of reminds me of the mayayor and Jaws, right So He's the mayor. He knows there's a shark out there somewhere But the beach is the biggest attraction. And he tells the sheriff. like I can't shut down the beach On the biggest weekend of the summer L if I do that, then We're going to lose all kinds of money. People who out of business. like he has all these other concerns. and he's often laughed about, right? Like Well, what an idiot. But then people point out, but he got reelected because he's still the mayor in Jaws too. And the thing is Money tks, right? And there's a real strong interest. What are the chances anything's going to happen What are the chances a shark is going to bite at somebody? What are the chances there's actually going to be a fire Come on We'll get it fixed, but for now, let's just continue doing what we're doing and that's what happens So that's M ninet it's sev nine. Fast forward to june ninth nineteen seventy. And we're going to start with The most evocative thing about this entire case The reason I know about this case is because of the photograph that we'll have on the website or if you happen to be watching, the photograph that we're about to put on the screen. because when this case is discussed in various sort of true crime media What tends to happen, this is a case that If you ever see a YouTube video that's li Five disasters and the one photo describes them or something, like the photos before disaster, right? You tend to see this photo when this is discussed. If you ever watch Lazy Masquerade, for instance, or Mr. Balin, or you know those kind of shows when they talk about the ghost chain fire. they always talk about an image of a man dressed in What is often described is some sort of demonic outfit. He's wearing a loin clloth He's bare chested and then he has on his head some sort of mask. It looks like sort of a rough I don't know A cowless cow And say like sort of a it's very Salvador dolly Okay, well there you go. that's one description of it. You gott to look it up. You got to Google the to go to our website if you haven't seen it. But essentially He's wearing this. It looks like some sort of animal pelt, right? It's got holes cut out for the eyes. It has these giant horns coming off of it and this black ha coming down. and in this photograph he has his arm around a child and this image is always associated with the ghost train. fire. So we're going to talk about this image And and we'll explain Wh it probably isn't evidence that this was really a satanic sacrifice to some Dark God On june ninth, nineteen seventy nine, earlier in the day. So before all of this happens The gods and children, the gods and children are going to become important as we go forward because unfortunately, they are going to lose their lives early in the day before they went to Luna Park they were in Sydney Cityities where Luna Park is, but they're in a neighborhood called Circular Keay And while they're there, A man dressed in what is described as a loincloth and wearing a mask with horns, which is a pretty accurate description. approached Damen Godardson He was one of the gods and children and said T his mother. Do you mind if I have my photo taken with your little boy He then puts his hand on Damen's shoulder and Jennifer Godotson, who is his mother takes a photo. This ends up being the last photo of Damen while he was alive And so this has been presented as some sort of something related to What is going to happen later in the day? A couple of things to note This isn't at Luna Park This is in Sydney And the photo has led many, including most of those people we talked about earlier, who've covered this case T to say that the fire was somehow satanic or occult in nature Some people have said speculated the children were sacrificed to the God Molock, Molock is a Mir Etern. God, you may have read about him in the Old Testament in the Bible who people worshiped him by sacrificing children by burning them So you'd burn children to the god Moloch. And that comes up a lot in the Bible because obviously that's pretty horrible things and the Israelites were very much against this. And some people said this is like a modern example of this because obviously we're going to have a fire later and we got this guy with the horns. So of course This is some sort of satanic act. and the fact that this man has never been identified adds to The mystery in classic cold water prosecutors tradition style We're going to go ahead and put that mystery to r. Now we can't tell who this guy is, but we can tell you exactly what's going on here So as I said earlier, this photo was taken in a neighborhood of Sydney During the day across the harbor from Luna Park. He was not at or even particularly close to the park And it was taken during the day. The fire itself, as you're going to see, does not happen until the park was on the verge of closing much later at night And second, even though we don't know who this man is We can figure out basically what he's doing. If you watch that documentary I mentioned earlier There is a blink or you'll miss it moment When Damian's mom who took this photo, and she's not even talking about this photo. She's just talking about their day mentions that it was the year of the child. And there were parades with people representing cultures from around the world. Now what she's talking about is the International Year of the Child, which was a proclamation from the UN meant to celebrate the twentieth anniversary of the Declaration of the Rights of Children And this was celebrated around the world in lots of different places in lots of different ways. and this included in Sydney. And Sydney' celebrated with a number of parades, processions, and festivals, including the one that was happening on june ninth. nineteen seventy nine And these festivals included sort of Demonstrations of people in cultures from around the world So This image is probably You got the leopard loincloth, you got the bullhead covering, you got the horns. It's probably a nineteen seventy nine less politically correct attempt to represent certain African traditions. If you know anything about many of the tribes in Africa, the wearing of sort of animal skins and masquerades with The recreations of sort of extreme animal heads with horns and you know, gazelles and giraffes and lions and bulls and everything else is something that a lot of Afran tribes will do This is probably a pretty poor attempt to do that. Like if you saw this now, like if they did this now, itd probably get criticized. People be like kind of mocking these cultures. I don't think that's what they were trying to do. I think they were trying to honor them. But I think that's what you're seeing here And probably the reason we don't know who this guy is is because he wasn't at Luna Park. He has no idea that he took a photograph He probably took a lot of photographs that day with a lot of kids. He took a photograph of one of the kids who eventually would perish in the fire. So That's what This is That's what's going on here No one is worsihippping the devil this category. Or This is the demon's foreshadowing of what will happen to Damen and five other children, six other people later that night. And of course it's in daylight and across the harbor because he doesn't want to be too close lest it be too on the nose. and everyone figures out exactly what demonic forces are at play here, Brett Do I have to be the one to explain this to? it's the international year of children because the UN is the center of a global lluminati child sacrificing devil worshiping cult And when they declared the year of the child, it was the year of child sacrifice. That's you didns what the year of the childild was year of the childs sacrifice Exactly. No, I think you're right. but look Any last photo of any especially a child who is going to perish later that day is going to be haunting, no matter what it is. And of course, when people are searching for answers, A photo like this is going to jump out and it absolutely is going to catch people's attention, catch the world's attention because of what's going to happen later that night. But If you look at the totality of where this is, it is not close to this. It was a parade. There's a reason in which you know children are wanting to be photographed because it's the yearar of the Chren, not of sacrifice, just literally Year of the Chren for rights It makes sense in that sense why this picture would exist and it has nothing to do with the occult But you're going to continue to hear that because it is. this is an incredibly disturbing picture and I bet you Even if this were a happy clown or some happy costume peoplee would still be pointing to it as some sort of you know premonition or foreshadowing of evil to come later because we know what's about to happen is tragic. and we are always trying to make sense of the unthinkable And look, there's a lot of people out there who don't believe in coincidences. They'll say there's no such thing as a coincidence. Those people are one hundred percent wrong Coinidences happen all the time And sure, given what's going to happen, I can see. why you would want to think about this. Look If this dude was just randomly walking around the ghost strain right before it caught on fire and asked to take a picture with his child and then disappeared into the night Okay But he's literally coming from a parade with a bunch of people probably dressed in similar ways, representing other cultures I think it's pretty explainable. It's funny to me because No one ever points that out and literally You know, I was trying to figure this out. I was Googling this and everything that all you get is all this like conspiracy theory stuff. And then I'm watching the documentary and it's like Three seconds. It's like she's just describing their day And she just mentions this offhand, You're the child. And there was a parade with like all these cultures people from other countries. And I was like, what And then like you dig into it and you figure out that's exactly what was happening So that's where this comes from Anyway, so hopefully if we don't do anything else in this podcast, hopefully we can put to bed this particular Image as creepy as it is And I hate to put to bed an image as creepy as is because it is the one I knew about this case because of this. Like you hadd ask me about the ghost train fire, I would have said, Oh, you mean the one with the guy dressed up like the devil Yeah, I know that case. But it turns out The things I thought I knew about it. weren't true at all But don't you worry because this picture isn't going to be the last creepy thing about this case So now we fast forward to later that night. This picture was obviously during the day with the parents. It's bright daylight. Now we're gonna to go to later that night. In fact, ten ten PM So at that time, the Ghost ride, which featured one hundred and eighty meter electric track It took riders and carts through a series of twists and turns with doors opening and closing, and it's meant to confuse writers around where they were The ride was spooky in nature I mean, it's called the Ghost Train, and it features dancings, skeletons, monsters, a dragon, and Dracula among other things The ghost train was extremely dark because that's part of the creepy factor of the ride. and it's illuminated inside only by neon If you've seen the documentary or you've seen kind of video recreations, Always see like a skeleton burning up which is incredibly creepy, off course, because we know that what's going to happen is that people will in fact burn up inside this ride. That is an actual image in the sense that there were skeletons. This was meant to be a creepy ride. It is confusing inside. You can't see anything. Remember back to nineteen seventy seven when they said this was a fire risk? they said, you need to illuminate some stuff in there. In case there's actually a problem, people really can't see their way in here, so you need to have emergency exit signs. That's why because that's really a feature of the ride So at approximately ten ten PM A fire started inside this popular ghost train ride There were about thirty five people on the ride at the time. One rider noticed that the decorative fire towards the end of the ride It didn't appear to just be part of the ride anymore That fire image actually looked to be real And that rider reached out her hand to see if in fact, maybe this was just such a good, you know, recreation of what fire would be like. But when she reaches out, she actually recoils because of the heat So it was not just an image, but real fire Now Still, she's on this ride, there's all these other images. She assumes it's part of the ride, so she gets off without any sort of incident Initially riders in line didn't notice anything out of the ordinary that changed once they got inside the ride? instantly? The riders could smell smoke and the smoke got thicker and thicker the further you progressed into the ride Then they saw little bits of flames on one of the walls, just two to three small balls of flame at first about the size of a fist. By this point, it was obvious something was deeply wrong. Then, one of the riders remembered that they were about to come upon the caged portion of the ride where the carts went out into the park. surrounded by only a chain linked fence They thought this might be a chance to escape But unfortunately, it was not They were completely fenced in by chain link, even the roof St m Thiss terrifying 'use you're going into a cage. L Yeahah. and so you' ye What Alice is describing The ghost train is it's entirely pitchback. It's it's like going to the haunted mansion in You know, Disney World, but a little bit more Not roller coaster, but it's jerking you around. It's in the dark. you're seeing all the scary stuff. You're going on these stores, but you're inside. And they're saying this fire. And then they come outside. They're now outside. They're free of the flames in this section where basically, you know, you come out and people can see you come out. You can imagine and take pictures of you, like you know, say hello to your friends and family. They come out of this. They're now outside of this incredibly dangerous situation. and they're thinking, Wow, we're outside. Maybe we can escape. Maybe this is our chance to get out. But there's no escape And now the train is turning back towards the doors that are going to take them back into this building whereere they know There is a fire awaiting them And that's terrifying because they have absolutely no choice. They have to actually go back into the flames And when those doors open back up into the smoke filled building, they're entering an inferno Flames were everywhere, completely encompassing the walls. Some riders jumped out of the carts and came bursting through the doors, yelling, stop the ride. It's on fire As this is happening, the attendant pushes the button to allow a group of young boys in notot able to stop it in time This really is like a final destination situation. You know, peopleeople are screaming, they're saying stop the ride. but remember, this is an amusement park. This is a ride meant to scare you. Of course there are screams. It's dark. And the attendant, they're just supposed to press the button, you know lift the bars, people get out, people get on. You got to keep the rides moving. Otherwise, people get mad that they've waited too long and this is near the end of the night. So he pushes the button to let on a group of young boys onto the ride, not realizing what's happened. and it's too late to stop Now one boy is in a carriage behind his four friends. He gets into the ride As he gets in the ride, as he is about to take off because the button is pushed, the ride is going an attendant actually sees what's happening, sees the terror in front of him and grabs this boy who has happened to be sitting behind his friends, able to grab him, Yank him out of the carriage just in time before the rest of the ride goes Forward This boy survives because the attendant grabbed him and yanked him out of the car but his friend sitting right in front of him They do not By this point, those inside the ride are desperately screaming Empty carriagers are coming back completely engulfed in flames So yeah, I mean, and I think it's worth stopping if you've watched the documentary This boy Now a man, forty years later describing this experience and the immense Guilt he failed. In fact Immediately after this, he's tranquilized. They essentially k these were his four best friends The five of them went everywhere together. He was the youngest. He was kind of Their mascot, a little bit younger than these other four boys who he idolized They're getting on this train. There's only four boys who can fit in a carriage and so they're back to back before getting the first one. he gets in the next one And as Alice said, I mean, and this is A lot of the cases we talk about going back to the McKenzie Sherilla case, we're talking about the grabbing the wheel and trying to change the gears and why to take them so whyy didn't they act immediately It takes a moment. for the brain to recognize what is going on You know, in that case, there are four seconds. Here as Alice said, there's so much noise. People are screaming with delight then all of a sudden, like you're phing the button,'reaking sure everybody's seat on. You're pushing the button,'re keeping it going, and keeping going.'s most popular ride in the entire amusement park This, by the way These four boys They wanted to get on the bumper cars. And they were walking up to the bumper cars as the attendant was closing it They literally got there right as he was putting up the chain. He said, sorry guys People in front of you are the last people on here And they're like, what are we going to do? Let's ride the ghost train Be the whole place is closing down. they're going to ride the ghost train again So there's so many moments if they had just been fifteen seconds earlier. To the bumper cars, they will be on this train You know, this situation where if the boys had just been fififteen seconds later So the gost straing Maybe it's stopped beforehand, but they're literally arriving right as The attendant is being told something's going on But he's already pushed the butt And that first train's gone through those doors inside And that second carriage with this one boy is about to go through those doors And if he goes to those doors, he's going to die But the attendant realizes just in time and rips him out of there and saves his life And the other four boys go forward into this inferno. It's just Wild It's horrible. It's herrific than the guilt he's felt. and he says, you know, I try to live for my four friends, but live my whole life for those Four boys who I loved because he survived and they didn't It's impossible to even imagine what that must be like And it's not the only tragedy that's going on here We mentioned the Dsston. Bys. There's two boys. Two little boys in the Godson family there Craig who's four and Damiian who's six. Damiian's in that picture we mentioned earlier And they're with their dad, John and Their mom who took that photograph. The place is closing down. they're trying to decide what's the last thing we want to do? and they decide also, let's do the ghost train one more time And as mom's walking over, she says, let's get some ice cream. Let's get some ice cream. And they're like, Yeahah, let's do that. And she says, I'll go get some. You wait on me She goes to get ice cream Wh she's going to get ice cream, her husband and two boys get in the car. And I can only imagine what they're thinking becausecause it's the thing I would think Let's go ahead and write it. and then we'll be done by the time she gets ice cream We can get the ice cream, we can eat the ice cream, and then we can all do it again, right? There's obvious, she's going to be an ice cream. Why weait wait her Let's just go ahead and go So she's off getting ice cream. and as she's walking back with the ice cream in her hand Her husband and her children are in this building. as It's engulfed in flames and everyone is screaming and terrified And then she has to livever that for the rest of her life as well. I mean, Immense tragedy What's going on as this fire is unfolding So Everyone's panicking They're screaming There are two attendants. who run the train One of whom has already saved one boy. They know this place like the back of their hand And they decide we're going to go into the ride and we're going to rescue the passengers who are inside So they go inside. they got flashlashs, but they're also fortunate because the lights are still on And when they go inside, it is filled with people who are panicking There's tons of smoke. There's fire People have gotten out of the cars because as Alice mentioned, the cars are going through that inferno. They're on fire when they come back out. They're coming into that cage now completely engulfed in flames because the electricity' still going. So the train's still running. They go inside, they find all these people. they can't find their way out. There's no emergency doors, there's no lights. The whole place is designed to confuse you And they start getting people out And they save dozens of people I mean, there's no telling How many people they saved? I mean there's over thirty people who were on the ride. When all this starts, they get those people out. But of course, Those are not the people they remember. The people that haunt them are the people they couldn't save. One of the guys is overcome by the smoke. He has to get out. He can't breathe and he goes to find a fire extinguisher. He's like, I gott to get out, go find a fire extinguisher. He gets one. He comes back fire is so intense, it's no use The other operator is a man named Tony. He pushes further and further into the fire. He's saving people. he's getting them out.'s showing them where safety. He's kicking down doors. He's knocking down walls so people can escape. And as He gets a bunch of people out, he goes back in This guy's a real hero He didn't think of himself as a hero. He thinks about how he failed, but he's a real hero. He goes back in and he actually can see The father and his two boys. Tuddled down. hisis father's trying to cover up the boys to protect him. He can see the other four boys But they're beyond where he can reach. There's a massive fire in front of him. The fire is getting worse and worse. By this point, the smoke is so intense that he can no longer breathe. He can't get to these boys and he can't get. to this father. He has to go out of the building to at least get his breath back He rushes out of the building, He expects to go back in, but as he leaves barely gets out of the building And there is this series explosions loud sounds. they're so loud, they're shaking the ground and every time one of them happens, there's a massive plume of flame The shooting out of the ghost train And at that point, they realize anyone still in That building is not going to make it. And there are photographs of this We'll put those photographs up on the website as well that there was a guy who was a tourist some random dude and He took a picture. U What was happening? He takes a picture. of this massive inferno And the flame is actually coming out of that cage. Remember there's the cage. So the cage is sort of opened everywhere So there's this massive infonto that's coming out of that cage. And the people who were standing there watching this just an absolute terror realizing How? Horrific this is and that anyone left inside is not going to make it. and it's only because of the efforts. of those two men that this tragedy which is As horrific as it could possibly be. isn't even Wse. Ever wonder who's out there making the world go round? It's truckers. Who unites baristas with coffee beans? Truckers Who unites dogs with their favorite chew toy? Truckers That's why Progressive offers truckers even more protection with cargo plus coverage to keep truckers moving right along Q quote truck insurance today in as little as eight minutes at progressivecommercial. com Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, coverage subject to policy terms, limits and conditions, not yet available in California, New York, and Virginia. If your supplement routine feels like a handful of pills every morning, it might be time for an upgrade. Quicksilver Scientific patented Ultra vitamin Packs, a comprehensive blend of essential vitamins and nutrients into one powerful formula, like vitamins A, C, D three, K one, K two, and the full suite of B vitamins, using liposomal delivery to support better absorption Simplify your routine and still give your body what it needs. Fewer pills, smarter delivery, ultra vitamin from Quicksilver scientific. Get ten percent off and free shipping at tryqus dot com slash podcast. That's tryqus dot com slash podcast for ten percent off and free shipping. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat cure, or prevent any disease Our Ramascal laws is youac cada project while Cent and. Our Achina Porento Nunas Alexion de Puertas andradas Santiores personersonalis Sas. Adamas our Renta do Aresenunquit the doos Ramentas the Wolf de Vaine Voltos Max Pentos Centa Nuuevedolares. Genel Proesque the laws try to lista the materialis sescriita and una photo in reiba Coticion and Minutos Aelisatus prorojectos Mintrasiges Ondo Coloos Piostacietoosot resistancex Mar P Lua There's incredible tragedy here and the image that Tony must have burned into his brain of the people he couldn't help despite helping, like you said, dozens of people get out. This was a tragedy. It could have been M, much worse, but if you are looking at the picture in front of you, this is quite literally an inferno. You know later on, they will say that it took them a while to identify bodies because everything was just melted That fire in front of you, it's not, you know, just a little bit of fire. you can tell there's like two hundred fifty thousand lights in this place and it's an electrical ride. Even if there were not an accelerant, there's so much electricity coursing through this train that you can only imagine what's causing these explosions and how big this flame is. And I'll say this just before I go home The documentary that we talked about it before. expose the ghost trained fire. My wife was very angry at me I didn't realize how bad this was going to be. So we're watching this first episode. I just warn you. I mean, it's not like Paradise Losts. There are no images of dead children. You don't have that the first episode, which is entirely about the tragedy is as difficult a thing to watch as you're ever going to see because you see the survivors, you see the mom talking about this. You hear the attendant and what they went through. You hear this boy who's now a man who survived. It is really difficult to watch and I will say this They do an excellent job of remembering the victims and humanizing them and really talking about them And it's a great documentary. really is. But that first episode Really, really difficult to watch. There three in total The second and the third one are the ones that really go into What happened afterwards in the evidence So if you're someone who This is the kind of thing that might be very difficult for you for whatever reason Maybe I'll watch the firstpisode. I mean, it's amazing. It's great I appreciate that that's not something everyone wants to experience. So just know there's three episodes. that first one Really tough devastating And the thing with fires They spread incredibly fast and also the devastation happens in minutes. Remember, around ten ten is when some of the riders started to notice maybe something was amiss By ten fourteen, just four minutes later, headquarters contontrol received the first call about a fire in the ghost train ride at Luna Park And when firefighters arrived, they saw thick columns of smoke reaching a hundred meters high coming from the ghost train One of them said on arrival, it took crews longer than expected to reach the fire as there was only a single road in and out of Luna Park, which made it difficult for crews to enter the park against the sea of people who are running in panic this point probably goes to the fire report that they had two years earlier, right? This is not great. This is why you have multiple exits. for fire evacuations like this So the initial crews called for backup assistance from both firefighters and EMTs because as soon as they saw the devastation before them They realized that it was very likely that there were casualties and they were unfortunately correct So it's interesting watch document, this is never really explained and I assume this is a problem with the park as well, But these firefighters, they realize very quickly. it's pretty obvious if you've seen the photos. The ghost trained ride is completely consumed by fire And what they're trying to do is get their lines in place, get their ladders in place because they're really concerned that the fire could spread to the big dipper, which is the roller coaster. If you're looking at the photo on screen, in the middle is what used to be the ghost train. It's completely gone, completely destroyed. But you had this wooden roller coaster rightight next to it. They're concered it's going to spread to that. It get spread to the river caves, which is right there. And they're having this issue where they don't have any water pressure. It's very fortunate because They are right next to the harbor. and so they're able to use harbor water to attack this fire So even though The Big Dipper did catch fire They were able to put out that fire and they were able to contain the rest of the fire to the ghost train. itself and eventually they were able to extinguish outbreak. So unfortunately due to the intense heat and flames within the ghost train Firefighters were unable to gain entry to attack the fire and conduct a search highly combustible materials used in the construction of the ghost train and the absence of a sprinkler system, which remember two years earlier required to add, this made it all difficult for firefighters to save any of the structures which collapsed in showers of sparks, smoke and burning debris. And so that's the end of the ghost trarain. The ghost train has been absolutely destroyed The people inside of it, unfortunately have passed away As I said, As awful a tragedy as this is only because of the efforts of those two attendants Was it not much? Wse The fire is going to be extinguished around midnight. We're going to go ahead and stop here for now This is a case. we're going to spend A couple episodes on Next episode, we're going to talk about the people who lost their lives on the ghost train. We're going to spend some time talkking about who they were. And what happened to them And then we're going to talk about the investigation into this case And what the police determined was the cause of this fire. And how that determination was quickly called into question by the coroners's inquest that was called to investigate this tragedy But that inquest, even though it called into question some of the findings of the police didn't really reach a satisfactory conclusion. And this mystery persisted for decades. and it's only in the last couple years where we begin to have a look into Some of the things that were going on in the background and some of the individuals who were involved They raiseed questions about whether this was truly just an accident, a horrific accident. Or maybe it was a crime and in fact was murder So we're going to talk about that In the next episode or the next, I don't know exactly how many This will go, but we will reach that Eventually I'm interested to know what you guys think. If you're in Australia, obviously I want to hear your thoughts on this. shoot us an email prosecutor's pod and Gmail d. com at prosecutors Todd For all your social media, Join us on the gallery to discuss this and other cases. If you want to see us record these episodes early and ad free, you can join Patreon for as little as three dollars a month. if you just want to get the episodes early and ad free You can do that as well through Patreon or if you don't like Patreon, you can join Apple subscriptions. and get them there as well, though, as always, Everything we do will eventually be available to you supported by ads, wonderful ads from all our wonderful sponsors. You can get yourself a milk kit from Hello Fresh or a blanket from Lola or a new outfit from Twins. I love. Or we got a bunch of new sponsors coming. so we're excited about those. You'll see those. Maybe you've heard about those And she've been listening to this episode. So However you want to consume O podcast Please do it. We're so happy to have all of you. We love your support. Thank you so much to our friends in Australia who listen to this podcast. We got some amazing listeners in Australia in Canada in Great Britain and around the world. We love you guys and we try not to just cover American cases because you guys have some awesome cases as well, even if they are incredibly tragic, which this is one of them. So thank you to everyone in Australia. We recommended we cover This Well, you want to do a question. This one's. Let's do a question. Let's We need a question.. So I've got a fun one. I've been holding. So But I'm going to need your help because I don't actually know what some of the question is talking about. So hopefully you can help me out Okay, so as you guys know, if you leave a five star review on Apple, you can leave a question. Or if you leave a five star review elsewhere like Spotify or some of the other places that allow you to rate a podcast but not leave a review, you can email us. And we got an email a while back. I've been hold on to this one. for a while. We got an email while back. And Here's what they say. And the reason I'm bringing this up now is I have begun my yearly reread of the Great Gatsby. I was actually reading it to my one year old daughter earlier. She was Little squirmy, she didn't seem as interested And Nick and Gatsby and Daisy as I thought she would be, but whatever. So I was reading it. So here's the question Bret says every year he reads the Great Gatsby In the Great Gatsby. Nick Caraway says that everyone suspects themselves to have one of The Virtues What virtue do you have And What deadly sin bothers you the most So that's so they want to know they want to know what virtue we have and what deadly sin we have. Now the only I only know the seven deadly sins from seven. That's all I know. But I understand that there are seven corresponding virtues It's really funny that I know the sins, but not the virtues either. Okay. I'm gonna to look this up then. seeven virtues. I see Okay, well well they're the four cardinal virtues for fourour cardinal virtues. Okay. seven the corresponding seven. I know of the four cardinal virtues. So here you go, Alice. Because they're often names. T a little bit about injustice fortitude and temperance The cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, fortitude, Temperance, faith, hope, and charity Those are the the seven corresponding. Those are the seven heavenly virtues, but there's also seven lively virtues, which are the opposite of the seven deadly sins. So I don't know which one they're going for. Those are chastity Temper Chity diligence. Kindness, patience, and humility So they want to know which of the virtues as Nick Caraway says and he does at one point Gre Gas but he says everyone suspects themselves of having one of the seven virtues. And I think his is honesty. He says honesty is his Right? So what virtue do you suspect yourself of having? And I'm just going to go ahe and say. So Nick Caraway says, honesty, that isn't actually one of these virtues. So I'll let you say whatever you want. It doesn't have to be one of these virtues. And then you got to say Which of the seven deadly sins? Oh, that's hard. is most They're all bad. They're all so bad. I mean, mine's easy. I didn't even find the Seven Deadly Sins to be that hard I will let you decide. I was about to guess what yours was. That's what I. But then I thought better than to do that. You should guess. Guess which of the seven de. I'll guess you Well you can't in the chat can guess as up. You can't d out there in podcast world You should guess of the seeven deadly sins And we have You can do, too. I'm not gonna to be offended.. Is your seven is one of your seven or is your seven deadly sin? Gluttony gummy bears. So I'm going to give this a moment for everybody to guess What it is It's absolutely glutony. There was no question about it. I mean, gluttony is like so I mean, because I love I just Gummy bears is a great example. I just love them And they're so they are so good though. L like a feast is so I mean attractive to me. and like you know, good wine and good drink and good food. like just give it all to me, Give me all the food and I just want to feel myself and tim'es s. It's like when I was at Josephine's in Paris And I had to literally get up and walk around the block because I'd had so much foi gras anas I was like developing gout in real time. You were had to You were sweating Turning into the fu gras that they had. Exactly. So So that's mine. Let me give you the seven deadly sense of somehow you miss Pride Envy. Wath Gluttony, lust, sloth, and greed Okay, you get to guess mine you get you get to guess mine too, but people said we said it to stS So give it a second before you Oh. I have my guess for you. Mine, I think is pretty easy. justust like you think yours is pretty easy. I know what you're gonna to say Okay, a roome. Okay. Okay, go for it. What do you think mine is Wath. It's so wrath. That's hundred percent It's wrath. It's totally wrath. And you would never know that from Alice because she's you actually know that. But when she gets angry, it's like we have say you do said. It's like That's what. It's so interesting because it's definitely not sloth Or like it's too it's you would say sloth. and I was going to reject that because you're the least slothful person I've ever met. No, I don't think it's sloth because I think I jump too quickly to the wrath and I could use a little slothfulness to like sit back, You know, what you're supposed to as a lawyer, You're always supposed to take a beat, listen to the question before you answer. I'm that terrible lawyer who like as the judge is halfway through the question I'm like I know what you're going to say I'm going to answer it whichich is very annoying to judges. I can have Rath. I mean gllutony is so clearly mine that it's hard for me. But like I do one of my things in court is I get anger and people object I want to be like, idiot. Of course it's not leading. What are you talking about but you do it all with a smile so you don't you I'm pretty wrathful. I get pretty like if you get on the wrong side, if you' like If there is some injustice I get angry and it's like hard to move me off of it Everybody's guessing Pide me. Am I that prideful? Am I that prideful? No, I just think you're more gluttonous than you are prideful. D'e definitely more glutonous than I am prideful. I just you' the other thing. pride thing it's a facade Right? You are confident And those who don't know you may perceive it as pride Pride is someone who steps on others around them to elevate themselves, and having worked with you for a decade, I'd say that's like the opposite of you. So I don't actually think yours is pride whatsoever. You do think highly of yourself, but that is different than what pride actually is, which is to think yourself so big that everyone else is smaller, and you do not think that. So I want everybody out there to not only think about what ourours are, but think about what you'. This could be a good be this is, I mean, and we're not just any of them, right? Like I I definitely have glutony as well. You know, and this it doesn't matter ifether they're religious or not. And this is the kind of thing where we all can work on ourselves. And these are just examples of things that it's not good to be gluttonous. It's a good way to die young Right? likeike Okay. that was actually the fun part. That was the fun part It was fun to talk about how great you are If you had what virtue do you think you have? And then I'll say what virtue I think you have and vice versa. because I have to think about this. You can do which you can do whatever good thing you want. It doesn't matter what the virtues are. So I feel like I have a little bit of advantage here because every time I've read that book, I always think about which virtue think I have. It's not one of these listed becausecauseuse I didn't know what they were. Because yours is Glutney, I don't think your Virtua is temperance. It's not temperance. That's definitely true So I would say Loyalty No I'm a very loyal person, like almost to a f. Really. Like if you So I heard the story once about John Wne that John Wayne was the ultimate if you were John Wayne's friend He would defend you until the end of time And if somebody did something with one of John Wayne's friends, even if it was justified, that person was dead to John Wayne Like he was like and like I've always tried to be that way. And like I said, I don't necessarily even know that this is a good thing because it is to a fault. Like I will not abandon you. Like if you're my friend, you will not. If you're my friend or If you ever did anything nice to me, like if you've ever done me a favor or just said a kind word or stood up for me or anything like that, then like I am loyal to you until the bitter end. I will never abandon you, even if you do something wrong. I will not criticize you in public Even if you do something wrong, I may go to you and I may say, Hey man I'm over here defending you But you really shouldn't have done that. That was bad. But I'm going to continue to defend you in public and I don't care because that's what I do It really shouldn't done that. Like that is just my position on things. I will never abandon anyone who is my friend. I mean, they would have to do something really horrible. I mean, it would have to be like, like if you murder somebody, I'm not going to help you bury the body Right? I'm not gonna do that. I'm not one of those friends, but short of murdering someone or like hurting kids, short of like super serious things like that. I'm with you to the bitter end. and righta, I'm with you You are, you are rightiter I was going to say before you said that, I was going to say a shade of that, which is similar If we're going with like the, you know, s alatonic Plato virtues or what I would have said charity because you are the most generous person to those does you Oh, that's so nice. But that goes along with the loyalty. Like you would do you would give the shirt off your back for anybody. who you is your friend. But also like if someone's dead to you, they're dead to you. But actually I don't know that. You're really charitable to people who really mean. You're very forgiving. People who I cannot forgive, you're like People make mistakes, they're horrible sometimes and you would still give the shirt off your back. You might grumble about it but you still do. So I was gonna give you charity because you are so generous And that and that's the thing. and it's kind of ironic, I guess, because obviously, I think most people probably would have said justice for both of us because for both prosecutors, like justice, you know. And I always had a really hard time at sentencing because even though I'm a very big believer in justice, and that people should suffer the consequences of what they do. I just always felt so bad sending people to prison. Like I really hated it It was the worst part. being a prosecor I don't know if you felt that way or not. Not in the same way as you do. I totally know what you're talking about because Sometimes we'd talk about a sentencing and you'd be sitting there like Qulyar dos back. All right, I'm gonna go ask for life Yeah. so we do So I was going to say about me I guess this does go along with the rack is justice. justustice in the sense that like I feel Even if it hurts me It has to be right. Like if I cut a piece of cake I would feel immense guilt if I gave the bigger piece of cake to myself. Like I couldn't do it. It is not something I can do, which is why I find it really offensive when someone's really selfish and does something to benefit themselves at the cost of other people because like I I noticed a point suit with your kids, right? Like you were very selfless. That's very, very kind. But I think that's like all bordering along the justice thing. So if I like when we split the bill, for example, when you're out with friends and you split the bill If there's like that one cent left over It would kill me if that cent were given to like another person versus me. Like if they pay me one cent more One of the carrots that she went back I did. I did go back because I forgot to pay for the carrots at the grocery store. and I bought like a one hundred dollars worth of groceries and the carrots were like a dollar fiftyents. and I forgot to scan it and it wasn't on my receipt. And I went back and paid for it and the clerk was like Why are you wasting my time? So not justice in the sense of being a prosecutor, but I feel like I hold myself to a very high standard of like what is just and what is right That's also my downfall becauseuse like I really actually am very bad at like Lying. Which is why it's so funny when people on Reddit are like She's just telling a story. She's really good at lying. I'm like, I actually, if I don't believe in it, I can't really sell it. Yeah. That is funny because you're right. You're like a terrible liar I'm terrible, liar. Everybody knows this about me. terrible because you won't do it. L it you just can't. Yeah, I just I look I smile. I'm like, can't say it It's been a very pful discussion about how wonderful we are. Ab howonderful But I think this is actually really interesting But you know, there are like virtues I know I definitely don't have. I definitely don't have temperance Temperance. I don't have temperance. Patience Sometimes I don't have patience. I've gotten better in life, but I do not have patience. I'd like to think I have courage, but I think anyone who's watched a horror movie with me knows I actually have no courage. Re courage. No real courage here Well there you go. So everybody out there. think about what virtue do you secretly believe you have And go read the Great Gats because it's a great book. It is it is so good. I love that you're reading it to your one year old. That's actually It was way you You need to read it's a little early. It's a little early. I say this every year because so many of you out there, you read the Grey Gatsby once when you were sixteen in tenth grade or eleventh grade And you hated it. You've never read it since and maybe you saw the movie of Leonard DiCaprio, Maybe you didn't Read it again and particularly if you're like Thty and over. If you're forty and over, definitely read it Like it's a book. for people looking back It is not I don't know why we make sixteen year olds read it because it's not for sixteen year olds. There's a point where Nick realizes he turned thirty And like, it is so much better for people in that age of their life. Th it' for kids. So go back and read it again. I'm an evangelist for the Great Gatsby ally are. multiple times now because of you. That was a great question. So guys, definitely leave a five star review. And like when you ask really fun questions, it might turn into a whole after dark episode unintentionally. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, I love these these kind of questions are so good. And we've gotten a bunch of really good questions lately, I feel like So keep them coming, leeave those five star reviews. Like I said, send me an email if you can't leave the review And eventually We will Ask it