The Grundy Organization and Lease Failure

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Call one eight hundred Granger, clickranger. com or just stop by Granger. For the ones who get it done Hi, I'm Jesse Preay. And I'm Andy Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder, where we unravel the darkest talales of romance Ted Deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative driven, and deeply researched, perfect for the true crime of ficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so called black widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers orr the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Duayne Johnson, where family ties mask a sinister plot. Subscribe to L loveve Murder on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen Bret Hi, I'm Alice. and we are the prosecutors Today on the Prosecutors, we continue our look at the ghost train fire Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my woo woo co host. Not that kind of woo but it's fine Are there multiple meanings of woo woo? Woo woo means kind of out there paranormal, weird alien stuff S I thought you were saying, whoa? Well, yeah, it's 'cause you got that earring. You look Vegas show girl or so I'm told by the comments. Only because we were just in Vegas, which we were By the way, Still so fun T weeks removed Just getting my voice back from Vegas. What does that say about my old age, I think? Or maybe how much I talked Guys this summer is going to kill me. I was just in Maine Shanot tell y'all in Maine. Beautiful state. Great. We were in S harbor my kids They found out that people call it Bi Harba. All they wanted to say was Bai Harba Do they know they have an Alabama accent? I don't know if they know that or not Because I just think it's really cute that they're not making fun of, but they're delighting in a They're a delight in acc. They're delighting in an accent when others probably delighted in their adorable Southern acc. They delight in the diversity of our nation Okay I am so getting into America two hundred fifty. I hope everybody is But like, I I went grocery shopping today. I almost no groceries and bought so much Like America paraphernalica. Ie, I tell you what, Main. There's flags everywhere and we drove down some out in the middle of nowhere roads. If we went all the way up, we basically flew to Boston didid Boston for a day. didid some of the patriotic stuff there. went on the Constitution, did all that stuff. And then we drove to Acadia, which is all the way at the top. So it took a long time. And it's in the middle of nowhere. Flags everywhere. They must have spent a fortune on flags It didn't matter where you were. if there was a lamppost or a power pole, there was a flag on it. That's cool. Awesome. That's Well, you know, it's flag day, well, we're recording on a Monday It was flagged day yesterday But like all these people in town were handing out American flags. I just thought they were being patriotic and then I realized it was flag day. So my kids would just gathering them up, because What does a flag remind you of if you are a six and eight year old boy? You're right A bayonet So they were stabbing everyone with our flags probably completely sacrleage there All to say is, I don't know, I'm just really getting in the spirit right now because like two hundred fifty is a big deal. I hope we last for another two hundred and fifty years. I'm not sure. squennial Semi susquentennial, Which by the way, I promise this is not an episode of After Dark. And I will tell you I have so many stories about Main.' gonna talk about Main. Maybe' be to do after Dark about it because I want to hear about Maine later It do it tonight, because I'm exausted America two hundred fifty This is, you know, little things that you just never knew. You go through your whole life not realizing something very simple I did not realize until the semisesquentennial What semiant I just meant half. That's what it means. It means semircle. I know, but I just thought that was kind of like an arc. It it didn't go all the way around a semicirc. Like you tell kids to sit in the semi circle. you're not expecting them to form a perfect half circle. just they're just gonna to do an arc. And then I was like, Oh so like a semifinal. That's why there's that's why there's four teams You know, I just I thought it was like We're almost to the final. It's almost a circle, you know? Like S me sweet chocolate. Is that half sweet I just thought it meant it's not as sweet as really sweet half between milk chocolate and the dark chocolate. It is half. I mean. I mean, it's not like a mathematical half sweetness, but what I'm telling you, I understand that this is what it means That's my whole point. I did not know That's what it meant until Okay quick po. because I was I'm laughing at you. I was the girl who had to ask how many quarters We're in a football game. so that's That's on me. I definitely knew that the semicircle was half a circle so that sem half let me just take a poll I'm curious, people in the chat, or whoever's listening want to write us in, did you know what that semi meant half? Beuse I did not know that that was unknown to you. But you know everything. And Joe, as Joe points out, like a semi truck Is that a half truck? Like I just always thought it was not a fult truck The semi truck You know, because you got to have the thing at the front to pull it But I don' feel like it's a half trip. But anyways, so yeah, I never realized it literally meant fifty percent. didn I didn't know that So like semi squentennials like half, which is a stupid, frankly, I think we should haveome with something the better. I like America two hundred fifty much better. Like bicentennials great America two hundred fifty is good. Defining it by half of five hundred, I don't likee I don't like that. That is your. but I don't know. Okay, so anyway America. Oh after's coming up. I'll show to you after dark. but I got this like cute American Red Bow shirt today When I was shopping at the Not Costco 'm sure it's beautif The shirt's beautiful. The experience of being not at Costco is less beautiful. But anyways, okay, enough of me trying to get out of talking about child murders Right, seriously. Oh my God And unfortunately, I think that's where we're headed We are headed there, and we're not even talking about America. all this stuff about America You know, we're going to talk about Australia. which we love Australia. Australia. You know, we watch this documentary and As we're watching it My wife's like, you know, Australian she just seems like really nice people. Like Re nice. something similar. Like Iested you Re really nice people. Except for the corruption we're about to uncover. There were bad the witnesses, like this makes sense They're like a British colony, so they are all very stayed. Like you would reveal something shocking. and they respond appropriately, but it's like the great British cooking show, whatever it is where like something horrendous happens and they'll be like, Oh dear Whereas I would being Ns, isn't it? Right. Wow, that certainly changes my outlook, you know as opposed to like, well, bleep bleep, bleep. Wh I will say this if you watch the documentary What's interesting? is that is true But there are things in the documentary and eventually we're going to talk about them either now or the next episode this goes three, which given how much lead in we're having. There are things that shock even those people, even those people, things happen where they're like, wow That guy was involved in this? It's like, yeah. So their twist and turns coming to this. upp to this point it's just been A tragic case. with this fire that happened. We've already debunked one conspiracy theory about it. But the further we go the more inssane it's going to get. Right now, we've been talking about june ninth which is the day of the fire. We're now rolling over. into june tenth. Remember The fire starts nine thirty, ten o'clock. I guess it's around ten o'clock when the call comes in. that this fire is going on. immediately respond. They're pumping water out of the harbor. They don't extinguish a fire until midnight It takes them a couple hours to put this fire out and they're having to put out fires, ancillary fires as well. to ensure that all of Lon apart doesn't burn to the ground. byy two hundred thirty Six of the seven bodies have been covered Now what's interesting about this, we're only Tw and a halfours into this. Now this is a recovery operation. Obviously that's going to happen But in the back of everyone's minds has to be, we had to figure out what caused this. And yet by three hundred forty, there's already a crane on scene that is beginning clearing debris and given that this is not a typical fire. for all we know it was an accident. for all they knew it was an accident. but There are seeven people who are dead there, many people are injured. There's going to be an investigation So it seems a little strange that we're already starting to clear Bris By five forty, the seventh body has been recovered and the police are able to confirm this is the final death toll by twelve fifteen, the next today. So We want to talk a little bit about the victims of this case. We've mentioned them in passing, but like so many of these cases, sometimes the actual people get lost in what happened and another thing I want to praise about the documentary on this. and I just I don't know what it is But I watch this documentary And it was so much better than most American documentaries. It was based in facts. They were constantly pointing to their sources, reading to you from their sources, giving you concrete reasons. Great demonstratives. Great demonstrates. If this were like in trial because it is a kind of a complex web we're about to walk through, the documentary made it so clear remember how we've talked about certain Like for example, we talked about Cereial, an Anon Sayed case where it was kind of jumping around in the timeline to confuse you. There was no jumping around in this documentary. It really actually was very timeline driven so as the watcher could actually follow along, which I really appreciated. That was very starkly different from a lot of American documentaries, which is meant for the drama and therefore the skipping around. And another thing they did that I really appreciate it is a three part documentary The first part of the documentary talks about the people And really going in the second half, the people a lot. I mean, you come to know the victims in this case and they spend a lot of time on it Where as I think a lot of documentaries, particularly American documentaries would have just jumped straight into the mystery, the conspiracy, the cover up Everything like that But they spent a good whole episode and half. on the people who died in this and in their family. I mean they talked to the parents who are still alive, the brothers, the friends, the aunts, the uncles. It's really well done And we want to talk a little bit about these folks as well. So The victims, we talked about the father and the two sons. That was John Godson and his two sons, Damen and Craig. And when their bodies were found, they' found very close together. It was obvious that John did everything he could to try and protect his children in that last moment. four boys who died, who were four best friends. We talked about the survivor. who was just behind them and was pulled off the ride the last minute. were It's called Waverly College, but They're young. so mid. I think's what they call called middle schools in Australia, colloeges. Anyways, four Waverly College students, Jonathan Billings, Richard Carroll, Michael Johnson, and Samas Raheli So John Godson, as we said, he was twenty nine years old at the time of his death. Damen and Craig were six and four And their family, including their mother, Jenny, who we talked about who went to get that ice cream. And that's why she wasn't on the ride with them They were on a big family vacation to Sydney at the time of the accident. They' never been to Sydney. This was a really big deal. You know, they went down and saw that parade and they're going to Luna Park And it was such a big deal for the family was one of those things they were going to remember forever and they had saved for Mths to be able to take this family vacation and they'd had this wonderful day and it's at the very end of the day and they're doing the very last thing. It was basically kids, what's the last ride you want to do And the kids want to do the ghost train. And so That's what they did. Jenny described her family's life in Warren is a simple happy one and her and John love beingving parents the two boys She was completely fulfilled by motherhood and she recalled spending days in the backyard under the Wow tree playing with her sons and their beloved Bassett H And the ghost train was supposed to be their last ride of the night. Like we said, it's ten PM. They're only sixix and four. You know, they're getting to stay up late on the special family trip theirir first time to Lun of Heart But shortly before they get on this last ride Jenny talks about this. She's like, I don't know what hit me I just wanted an ice cream cone And so she turned around and said, okay, I'm going to go get me an ice cream cone. Does anyone else want one? while her family stood in line for the ride And she says they were supposed to waave for her. She was just A couple steps away, getting an ice cream cone, and she was going to bring back ice cream for everybody else Now, when Jenny turned around with the ice cream cones in her hands She came back to the ride She found that The boys and the dad, they were gone. They'd gone on without her At that time she looked up in horror because not only were they gone No longer waiting for her She saw that the ride before her was engulfed in flames Now John and the boys were the first victims to be found He was found on top of one of the boys shielding him with his body. And Obviously, the flames were much too large to do anything there, but his last act was to try and protect his son And his other son was found just a short distance away from them. And if you remember one of the ride attendants who had run in trying to save them, he could see the father and the two young sons. And he said that they were all huddled together. So the way that John was found with his two young boys comports with what that attendant last saw before Everything went down in flames And You know, Jenny is talking about this decades after the fact and something like this you never recover from. How can you? Her entire life was ripped away from her in quite literally you know, seconds. And there's some horrific literary irony here that she is standing there holding cold ice cream while her son and husband are engulfed in the hottest of flames and she can do nothing to save them. Then there's Richard Carroll, Michael Johnson, Jonathan Billings, and Samus Raheli These were the four best friends who were just twelve and thirteen years old at the time of this accident They did everything together. They went to school together at Waverlely College, they hung out together. This was their first time to be able to go to Luna Park all by themselves that night. This was a big deal for them. They were big kids. Luna Park, as their parents said, was a safe place. This was the first time they were going be there by themselves, and they were just having a good time Everyone who knew these boys. friends, family, they describe them as inseparable with many people referring to them only as the four amigos because they were always together And if you're watching right now on YouTube, you can see the pictures of the seven victims At the top is John, the dad with his two young boys and We say that there's an adult, but he was just twenty nine years old too. He was barely out of, you know teenagehood himself, these are all such young, young people and these four boys who were They look like little kids. They don't look like young men, even, they look like boys And their last moments were tortuous because they were clearly alive for some time and the way their bodies were found, they tried everything they could to get out of there, but there was no hope based on the maze and the severity of the flames they were in So Richard Carroll The first of the four boys, I think often described as one of the leaders He was described as a happy boy who lived a wonderful life with his four siblings. He was caring and absolutely adored his sister and younger brother When his little brother would get scared at night, Richard would often crawl in bed with him and sleep there to comfort him Richard loved swimming and skiing and excelled in academics. His friends were extremely important to him and a fixture in his life. Richard was going to go on to do amazing things. I think That's pretty clear and You know, somebody on the gallery was talking about how they saw the ghost train fire in the top. think, Ohh, this will be another sort of fun case along the lines of Iel of passass or the Mary Celeste, It's like, N, nope, it's absolutely horrific. And when you talk about these kids and you see their families, you realize that Michael Johnson was, as his younger sister described, the golden child. He was the first child and grandchild in his family His sister remembers him as caring and protective, particularly of her He was extremely smart with fantastic grades, and she remembers everyone who knew Michael loved him Eespecially their gndma who watched the siblings while their parents worked And Jonathan Billings was described by his father as a caring and sensitive boy with a great sense of humor. He loved his friends, school, surfing, and football. He was self sufficient and often went the extra mile to care for his parents. His dad tells this sweet memory in the mornings before he would go to school, he would come into his parents room and ask them if they wanted tea, and then he'd bring in tea for them before he left for the day. I don't think my kids could make tea and certainly wouldn't think about it to bring to me, but this was the kind of kid that Jonathan was. And his dream was adventure filled. He wanted to go to Africa once he finished school And he once said in a paper that he wanted to go there to shoot animals, but he specified only thing he was going to shoot them with was a camera because he loved animals And it just shows kind of his sense of adventure, but also his tender heart. Seamus Raheli was remembered by his friend Jason, the boy who was sitting behind them and narrowly survived the ghost train fire As a beautiful boy who was always smiling. Sheamus loved rugby and sailing and even at his young age had a very strong sense of right and wrong He was quiet but was always looking out for his friends And we talked about Jason. He was with the boys that night. He was a little bit younger, but he was he's a good friend. He was kind of their mascot and he's very prominent in the documentary. I think He had wanted to do a documentary for a while. He'd been in entertainment, He'd been in film. It' one of those things where he would start it. it was just too personal. He recalls and as we said before, I mean he was right there It was a miracle that he was saved, but if they'd gotten there thirty seconds earlier, he would have died. They'd gotten there thirty seconds later, all of them would have lived He's pulled out R at the last moment even as the other four boys are going through the door into the tunnel and into the flames So at this point, the bodies have now been removed from the fire and the police You would think would now begin a thorough forensic investigation to identify the source and cause of the fire That didn't happen. as we said, the crane had already gone up at around three o'clock and they immediately go to work clearing debris from the scene. And in fact The entire scene was cleared and all potential evidence trashed Within a day O The tragedy. 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That's code podcast at gruns. co When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done So less than twenty four hours after the fire started, at three PM, police announced that they believe the fire was caused by an electrical fault, in other words, an accident In the press release, police referenced four witnesses who all claimed to have seen sparks and flames coming from the roof's electrical wiring system of the ghost trains shortly before the fire began Interestingly, in an ABC Doccus series, journalists went through all twenty four witness statements and not one of them mentioned seeing this. Obviously, the press release doesn't specify who the four witnesses are, but the witness reports from this time were reviewed and none of them mention the sparks coming from the wiring system And the doQ series we've talked about a lot. to remind you is called exposed the ghost train fire and It's incredible. We' talked about a lot. We're going to continue to talk about it. I mean, I hate to keep going back to it, but it's just really good And it gives so much color to this And it's really interesting because We talk all the time about these cases. you know, we did the Gunther Stole case, a few weeks ago And think about that case, there's a conspiracy theory there. and actually have an update on that case, which maybe we could be at end this episode There's a conspiracy theory there, but even as we talked about in that episode, it's driven really almost by a lack of information. We don't know a lot about him before it happened There's a lot of mystery about who the witnesses were and what they saw and when they saw it and everything else In this case, the documentary, it's so different because The stories and the possibility that this was intentional, that maybe this was even covered up. It's not speculation. It's not we heard rumors. it's not This couldt have happened this way. It must have been something else. There's no way this could have just been an accident Everything is based on actual reporting and evidence. and one of the things they do They talked to all these people who were in the ghost train immediately before this happened. Pe who were in there when the attendant came in and got them out. The people, you remember how there's that fake fireplace and the one woman reaches her hand out and realizes it's actually on fire, but doesn't think the whole place is on fire and just thinks well, that's weird. they get a real fire in there And she goes on, they talk to her They talk to the people who really were the first people to see the fire start. the ones who ran out to the attendant, the ones who told the attendant the place is on fire and got him to stop the train and probably save Jason's life through their actions. They talked to them and they asked all of them Did you see the sparks Did you see any sparks And all of them say no. None of them saw anything like that. And so they all confirm, that wasn't me Whoever said that it wasn't me And as Alice said, there are reports, there are police reports that say there are witnesses that said this But there are no witness statements And the police reports don't name anyone, which is given the importance of this fact. And given that there's going to be an inquest where people are going to testify, you would expect that The names of the main witnesses would be listed somewhere But they're not. They're not listed in any of this documentation And when you think about every case it seems to st these days, everything that happens, it just doesn't even matter anymore what it is or how obvious it is Everything's a conspiracy. People have conspiracy theories about every single thing that happens, every single case that comes up And if you're out there and you're trying to figure out, well, you know, I don't want to be naive. I don't want to think conspiracies never happen. I don't wantan to think conspiracies are impossible What do I do? How do I figure this out? Well, one thing you can look for is actual evidence of a cover upp An example of that would be if you think the police are messing with a case, when you see inexplicable things in the reports where it seems like the police are manufacturing something. And they don't even have anyone to back it up. There's no person that they can two. But they're giving this statement that this is an electrical fire and This is not speculation on our part. We're not just saying There's no way an electrical fire could do that. Beause you see that a lot too. Something terrible happens and people want someone to blame. And we talked about the florifier. That might have been arson. I think there's a strong case for that was some sort of accident mayaybe negligence on the part of the owners, but some sort of allegical thing cause that. I think there' strong evidence of that People naturally rebel against that because they want someomeone to blame, someone to bring to justice It sucks when it's just an accident. I'm rant here, but Alice, did you ever watch CSI a little bit So just enough to know about the CSI effect. Yeah Well, there was a CSI episode It's actually based, I think I'll in a case have Australia But There was a CS episode and it was really interesting because this College girl dies in this really mysterious way They find her body in a landfield And they're trying to figure out what happened. And sppoiler alert, I mean, this episode's twenty five years old. But at the end, what they figuure out happened was she was moving out of her dorm room She was dumping her trash down the trash chute. She accidentally drops the trash can goes down the trash shobe Well, she realizes if she doesn't get the trash can back, she's going to lose her deposit because it goes to the room. So she goes down to where the dumpster is And she's like digging around in the dumpster get the trash canan At the same time, this guy whose wife is pregnant, and is in labor is taking a shortcut down this alleyway And as he's driving down the alleyway, he bumps the dumpster doesn't realize this girl is like halfway in it. When he does that, the door like to the dumpster falls and whacks her on the head, knocks her out, and then she ends up, you know, they take the trash and she basically dies in the dumpster, right? Then her body ends up in the landfill. And so it appears to be This's just tragic accident. So at the end of the show, the end of the episode They explain exactly what happened to her parents This is exactly what happened. H's all the evidence how went down everything and her parents like There's no way that happened. We'll never believe that. We're hiring a private investigator to figure out the truth. And the main guy who's this very sort of like scientific, not emotional guy, he just can't understand why they would think that. And then one of his associates who's a little bit more cued into human emotions, basically explains to him like they want someone to blame. likeike they can't believe that something like that would kill their daughter And you see that a lot with accidents. You see that a lot with suicides. People don't want to believe it difference here is it's not just how could seven people be killed by an electrical accident in a train We actually have evidence we're about to talk about Proving that that didn't happen Sorry, ran it for a long time there. Did you have anything you would say No, I think that's exactly right. Over time, we've gained the reputation of being cold water prosecutors because we shoot down conspiracy theories that may sound interesting. And sometimes we've said, if there's no answer for something, then we have to look to extraordinary circumstances because none of the typical circumstances or reasons explain what we see before us, kindind of like Diatlov Pass This is singularly interesting because what we are about to talk about may sound like a conspiracy theory, except it is absolutely documented within a paper trail. The fact that this all still exists and you can verify this will point to Vverifiable lies that were happening at the time, and they're verifiable now. These were documents at the time of the investigation, at the time of witness statements, not found, quote unquote, or remembered decades later. The extraordinary thing about this is what we're going to read to you all was Inest or lack of investigation was documented at the time of this accident because oftentimes as conspiracy theories take root, you'll see that someone will suddenly find new evidence or find a new witness who remembers something and they never came forward forty years ago. Not the case here. We have a lot of people who are willing to talk, by the way, on camera, that says a lotult witnesses up here in this ABC Docu series who have never talked about this publicly before. They've talked to law enforcement, but they've never talked publicly about it and to be able to get them all on camera to talk about their memory and to confirm what they told police at the time is Some of the best investigative journalism I've ever seen So they within twenty four hours they're saying this is an accidental. This was caused by faulty electrics. When this, you know, makes sense. It's the seventies, the late seventies or whatever electrical fires happen all the time. So maybe that's what it is. The problem is E the barest review of this allegation. doesn't hold up to scrutiny For one thing this was an electrical issue The problem you have is the track was still running The track, everything there is electric. The track's electric, the lights are electric throughout the fire Even when the fire is at its peak, all of the internal lights are still working. There are these images that were taken by a tourist and we've shown some on YouTube if you watched it on YouTube There are these images that show this fire just in Cool Flame I mean, looks like hell on earth. The fire is going just at an incredible rate even as that is happening even as the fire is raging The lights are still on The ghost train Sign is still lit up. If this was electrical fire, you wouldn't expect that. You would expect that the electrical shorting out and then the fire starting in the wiring would have very quickly caused electricity to fail, but that never happens The police theorize that The fire started in one of the fuse boxes. This is their theory probleroblem is there are two fuse boxes. One in the north O in the south The northern fuse box was still fully operational even after the fire So it was ruled out as a source that pushed the place to the southern Fuse box as the source. So let's look at whether or not that is likely or even possible So first and we've talked about this before, there were witnesses who rode on the ghost train in one of the final rides before the fire had taken hold, before it had spread anywhere, who noticed what looked like real flames in the fake fireplace These flames were basically pieces of fabric. They were blown into the air by a blower beneath. That night, they appeared to be incredibly realistic and in fact they were because as we said, someone reaches out feels the heat of the flame actually pulls their hand back thing that's interesting about this. If a fire was going to start anywhere The fireplace is actually a pretty good place for its start. Number one, It kind of looks like a fireplace so people might notice. But number two What does fire need to spread? and needs oxygen Win Eactly. And what do you have in the fireplace? You have a blower underneath it blowing up through these flames. you would imagine if you wanted to say start a fire that this would be a really good place to start one Now, this fireplace is fairly close to the southern Fuse Bogs. If you look at a map of the ghost train, basically the southern fuse box is on the southern wall, which is where you'd expect it to be. the fireplace is probably halfway across the ghost train. So go back halfway, you get to the fireplace, go the other halfway, you' hit the northern So you know, it's like, okay. It's not that close, but maybe somehow there's some sort of spark from the southern Fuse boox. The southern fuse box catches on fire, the fire spreads to this fireplace. That's the first place it's seen, but the southern fuse box is actually on fire. and maybe the light stayed on because they're all connected to the northern fuse box The problem here is in almost a miracle The southern Fuse boox, which is right where the fire is happening is compleompletely intact At the end of all this, Especially compared to the rest of the rud. If you see photos of this, everything around the fuse box is burned to the ground. The fuse box is still there. Now you would expect If the fuse box had been the source of the fire, it would been completely burned out, but that wasn't the case Several firefighters who were on scene that night were interviewed and shown photos of that fuse box the next day, and they agreed in their professional opinions that it was very unlikely could have been the source of the fire. And as we said, even as the fire is raging The lights are on, including that haunting image of the ghost train sign still glowing even as the fire is burning this ride to the ground. And if you think about this, if you've seen a fuse boxes or you think about your electrical boxes at home it's usually encased in a metal box with a cover. That's exactly what the case is here. And so if the fire were external to it, the purpose of that box is to protect the wiring so that if something like this happens, the fuse box can still stay protected. But if it's coming from internal, if you've ever had any a fuse blow, like I remember I plugged in something one time and it like blew the fuse. The fuse, the like little outlet as well as my charger plugin all turn black because it exploded, right? It was very dangerous. But you would expect the inside of the fuse box because it's coming from the inside would have blown out. There's a picture and it wasn't even that someone took a picture of the fuse box, it happened that someone had taken a picture of the completely demolished area as it was being cleared and you have to zoom in and see that the only thing standing there was the fuse box. So it's not that someone had the foresight to take a picture of the fuse box No one was trying to debunk this theory later. By a miracle, this fuse box was captured before it was completely flattened by the demolition crew And there's another picture of it where the box is opened. And you know how you have switches? If you think of your own electrical box The little switches are still white Like they're still they haven't been burned out because the cover had been on it. That's how intact this box is. It's not just a little bit intact. It looks like it would still be functioning if it were not surrounded by inferno debris. So that is the state of things right now. But again, this wasn't investigated at the time. It was just said, well, it must have been a fuse bucks, it must have been wiring. Fast forward to july thirty first, nineteen seventy nine, so the government who owned the land where Luna Park was situated called for new tenders to lease the land This waterfront location on the Sydney Harbor next to the bridge and across from the famous opera house made it an extremely desirable location to local developers. august thirteenth through the twenty ninth of nineteen seventy nine, the Coners's Court of New South Wales held an inquest during this time before coroner Kevin Sidney Anderson. And the purpose of this inquest is to figure out What happened? What started the fire Note that this is happening about a month or so after the fire and also after the time that a new lease for the land is basically being advertised. And if you look at a picture like an aerial picture of this area, you can see that everywhere around Luna Park is developed essentially with high rises and businesses. and it sticks out in that it's the only strip of this area that is not developed like a business commercial zone. It's just a theme park And remember, even before this happened, the lease was sort of in question. It was it's like months a month or whatever But the people running the park were holding on to it. They weren't going to give it up and Then you have this fire, this horrific tragic fire And guess what Now of a sudden the ability to develop that land. that's been the S of amusement park for forty years. well Back when The land probably wasn't worth much of anything You know? now all of a sudden It's worth a ton. I used to live in DC. I used to live on the waterfront in DC Back before it was developed Th he was a ghost town You know? And there were just all these abandoned buildings on the water and everything If I had bought some land there I would have made a fortune because now It's this massive development It's a similar thing. You have this property There's nothing on it In that case, they were able just to buy that property and build it. But here you have someone who holds the lease who is not interested in selling They're not interested in giving up police They're not interested in letting the government do something else with it. And it's so valuable and anyone who sees it knows how valuable that land would be And so this inquest does go on for about two and a half weeks. What do you expect to happen in an inquest? It's an investigation. It's like a public investigation, the way Australia does it. They call witnesses and they're asked questions about what they saw so that the coroner can make findings of fact to figure out what happened here And interestingly, when you watched the Docu series, there were many witnesses of to this fire, not just witnesses to the fire at the park, but people who were on the ride as the flames were starting, people who were pulled from the ride, people who are watching it burn. All of these witnesses showed up thinking they would be called to testify and one after another, in the docu series decades later, they say that No one called them. No one called them to testify They had very important information. They were firsthand witnesses of this fire about where they saw the fire in that fake fireplace, about what was developing, that the lights were on, these sorts of things, and none of them were called for the inquest And just a few days after the inquest concludes on september third, nineteen seventy nine, the coroner issued his findings. He found that, quote, the cause of the fire cannot conclusively be stated Now he did refute the police's earlier claim that the fire was due to an electrical fault, calling that most unlikely He reasoned that the most likely explanation was actually ignition of flammable litter by a cigarette or match carelessly or recklessly discarded by a person riding on the train So note, even though the electrical fault, which seems very improbable based on the fuse boxes and the electrical tracks continuing to run. dispels that. He says, that's not true But he then goes on to make a finding that it's most likely a different type of accident caused by negligence. People smoked all the time in the seventies. This was a discarded cigarette butt that caused the ignition of this horrible fire. And look, I give him credit for rejecting the police's proposed theory becausecause not only is there no evidence for the police's proposed theory There's evidence against the police's proposed theory. I think he should have questioned more extensively Why the police claim there are four witnesses he said this and then could not produce them or even produce who they were. I think that's a big issue that he probably looked into, but I will at least give him credit for saying this was an electrical fire But then he does something almost almost as bad by speculating by the cigarettes. Now There's not the same kind of evidence against it being a cigarette But there's no evidence it is a cigarette. I mean, it's complete speculation. We talk about this a lot on this podcast. People often do this with cases. Well, maybe it was this Well, I mean, maybe it was. Do you have any reason to think it was? Do you have anything to point to that would make that likely? I mean, yeah, peopleople smoked a lot back in the seventies. But you' seen the documentary The people who rode the ride said They didn't see anybody smoking, which I think is significant. I think the people who were on at the time didn't seem anybody smoking significant They said a few things which weren't as convincing to me, like, well, you know, the ride was really jerky and you had to hold on, and who would smoke cigarettte in that circumstance? People who smoke You know, they're the ones who would do that. Oh there was no smoking sign outside of it. Okay I'm sure that would stop them, right? So there are a couple things that I think are interesting I do think I can imagine a situation if you were smoking a cigarette on The Ghost traing And you wanted to be cheeky Where would you throw your cigarette? into the fireplace Yeah, I can imagine that. I mean that feeles like something someone might do But We don't have anybody that. We don't have anybody seeing you by doing it Obviously nobody ever admitted to doing it It's better than an electrical fire, but only slightly. There's not a ton of evidence for it. I don't think you can totally rule it out. Though the things that we're going to talk about as we continue to look at this Make me think It is most unlikely in the words of the corner. that a cigarette caused this fire. But one thing He did point out, which I think is legitimate. And I do think the documentary didn't talk enough about this. There is some real liability on the part of the park becausecause there were safety measures that could have been taken, basic safety measures that were Taken There should have been sprinkler systems in this place. There should have been lighted emergency exits in this place. These were things that they were told to do. that regulators didn't really follow up on, that they did not do. And the coroner did say this was a breach of the duty of care He said it wasn't the high degree of negligence necessary to support a charge involving criminal negligence But I think civilly, I don't know if lawsuits were ever pursued in this case or not. And I don't know exactly what the laws are in Australia and how that works. I think in the United States That certainly would have led to the lawsuits's most likely successful lawsuit. So he does point that out, and I think that's true whatever happened in this case Part of the responsibility does fall on the owners of Lay to Park But evenven though You got it right, you feel like on the electrical system And even though he's right about the liability the owners might have had. There was a large portion of the public who did not buy his cigarette theory And as more information came out, that theory seemed less and less likely Several witnesses recalled smelling kerosene which is a common accelerate in the ghost train Ride Tal more about that later. There are also seven different witnesses who came for describing a bunch of Biker type people. They call them biikekes. in Australia. Bikes hanging out around the ride suspiciously. Two teenagers who were staying in the local youth Refuge even heard the bikers discussing. how they had poured kerosene on the ground and lit a match. And there was an attendant who reported feeling uneasy when a group of bikers matching the same description rode on the ghost train just ten minutes before the fire startarted And by the way These statements were taken close in time to the investigation. So again, these were not witnesses who came for decades later. It was within the day, really, the two teenagers who were at the local youth refuge, which means that they were homeless, essentially. They were not with their families. In other words, a vulnerable population They spoke to police that day And amazingly, decades later, The Docu series finds them and they completely confirmed what they originally told the police as well. I mean, this is really incredible follow up that this doocu series is able to do. and they talk on camera So despite all of these witness statements pointing to potential arson, the kerosene, people being a little suspicious who were described in detail by multiple different witnesses There's no questions asked about Arson, and it wasn't mentioned as a potential option at all in any of the one hundred and ninety page inquests Additionally, over twenty five percent of the witnesses called to testify at the inquest, including many who would have supported the Ason claim were dismissed without answering a single question. They showed up, were ready to be called, but we're never called. So This is really a shallow inquest And the shady reputation of Doug Knight, we'll talk more about him later left the public wondering if perhaps something bigger was at play here Maybe this wasn't an accident. Maybe it was a murder. and the police were covering it up course, What evidence do we have for that And the biggest question Why? whyy would they possibly cover this up This episode is sponsored by Better Help Guys, we talk about mental health, we talk about it on the show all the time. We're much more open about it, but asking for help can still feel hard. And Better Help's latest research confirms it. BetterHelp recently released their twenty twenty six state of stigma report. They surveyed two thousand Americans and revealed that eighty five percent of Americans believe getting support is wise seventy four percent say society discourages people from doing so Guys, we gott to leave this stigma behind. There are always times where we need help, where we just need someone to talk to, where reaching out can be the difference between being happy, pursuing our goals and not being able to do so. Better H is there to help You withith over thirty thousand therapists. Better Help is the world's largest online therapy platform haaving served over six million people globally, and it works. withith an average rating of four point nine out of five for a live session based on over one point seven million client reviews and betterter helpel therapists work according to a strict and they are fully licensed in the US. Better Help does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. They just have a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and preferences, and their twelve plus years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate means that they typically get it right the first time. But if you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs Don't let stigma stand in the way of support Start therapy with better helpel sign up and get ten percent off at betteretter Help dot com slash prosecutors. That's better HELp d. com slash prosecutors This episode is sponsored by Better Help Guys, we talk about mental health, we talk about it on the show all the time. We're much more open about it, but asking for help can still feel hard. And Better Help's latest research confirms it. BetterHelp recently released their twenty twenty six state of stigma report. They surveyed two thousand Americans and revealed that eighty five percent of Americans believe getting support is wise seventy four percent say society discourages people from doing so. Guys, we gott to leave this stigma behind. There are always times where we need help, where we just need someone to talk to, where reaching out can be the difference between being happy, pursuing our goals and not being able to do so. Better H is there to help you withith over thirty thousand therapists Better Help is the world's largest online therapy platform haaving served over six million people globally, and it works. With an average rating of four point nine out of five for a live session based on over one point seven million client reviews and better helpel therapists work according to a strict and they are fully licensed in the US. Better Help does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. They just have a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and preferences, and their twelve plus years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate means that they typically get it right the first time. But if you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored reps Don't let stigma stand in the way of support Start therapy with better helpel signign up and get ten percent off at Better Help dot com slash prosecutors. That's better HLP dot com slash prosecutors Don't you wish everything was more rewarding? With Rackutin, almost everything is. You can earn cash back on those new shoes you've been wanting. You can save on the next trip you book. You can cash in on groceries. Just join, shop your favorite brands and save Target Instacart Expedia, Macy's Sephora CBS. The list is long Save online, in store and at over twenty two thousand restaurants. And when it's time to redeem those rewards, get your money exactly how you want it. Choose PayPal, check, Bilt points, or cash out with gift cards. Eligible American Express card members can choose to earn membership rewards points instead of cash backack Terms and conditions apply. So go ahead, take a trip, fill a cart, order dessert. Racketen is a world of rewards. Join today for free. Go to racketin. com or get the app. That's R aK U T E N And we're going to talk more about that as we continue to go along. But the inquest bothers me in a lot of ways. You know I wish we did more of this style of investigation in the United States. I think this would probably a jury Yeah I think it would be really valuable in a lot of the cases we talk about, frankly. I think there's a lot of cases where there's suspicion and mystery and you think you might have some idea about who did it. where bringing people in to talk in front of a judge would be really valuable. Now I think some of that is made more difficult by the Fifth Amendment. The right to not incriminate yourself You know, if you think about The lady vanishes and that h thing where they find the guy who they think did it and they have the inquest and he's called yes testify testifies for days You obviously you can't do that in theitedates. So may it be difficult But I really like that system. Here though, it seems like it completely failed. Two weeks is You know, I mean, that's a long time, I guess to talk about something that happened. It's not like they did it in a day. But Seven people died in this. Nber one, seven people died in this. Number two, you have some obviously questionable actions by the police the speed with which the place was cleaned up. The fact the police seem to be pointing to witnesses who don't exist to give a relatively benign reason for this fire. That's troubling Hear from all the witnesses Like take the time to have those people come up and testify If it becomes obvious if they don't have anything to add, which happens Go ahead and tell, you know what Appreciate your coming up here. But we've got it, you can go ahead and go. I mean, that happens in trials sometimes where you have duplicative testimony. The judge will eventually step in and say, you know, okay, counselor, do you have anything to add for this witness? And no, okay, we're going to go. But just dismissing them out of hand, never discussing even the possibility of arson. How can you eliminate arson as a possibility without discussing it? And maybe if you discuss it and you really pour through the evidence and you look at the facts, you would come to the conclusion it wasn't arson. And then if you've eliminated arson, you've eliminated electricity, Electrical faults, then maybe the cigarette really is the best. It's not Lightning that day, you know, there's no fired it and just Burst out of nowhere had have some cause, so cigarettte sounds good. But without eliminating arson, I don't know how youd then just throw that out there. Well, maybe was a cigarette And it's just unfortunate that none of these people testified This in the mind of the government at the time though, is kind of the end of it It's been investigated. We've looked into it. We held a two week inquest. What more do you want? It was an accident. Sorry this happened. Everybody move home. That's kind of the story. And so now Everyone turns to What's going to happen with this property So at this point, it's november nineteen seventy nine And the Grundi Organization, which is a well respected media entertainment operation in Australia They're very interested in Luna park. They're very interested in continuing it as an amusement park They have a lot of sway and pull. They're a respected organization. they have lots of resources and they put in What everyone views as the top bid For the least Suna Park and everyone expects they're going get it because Number one They have the resources to actually do this They have a commitment to maintaining it in the sort of historic shape that it's in because at this point it's a Sydney staples. It's a landmark It's not just an amusement park, it's a part of cityity They can do that. They have a plan for how to do it. Ething about their proposal seems to be the best proposal. And the Grundy organization, until the day that they are supposed to be issued this lease. expects they're going to get it and are preparing to do so But then out of the blue and for no apparent reason the deal falls through and there's not that much explanation and the government asks for more Bes moreore bids come in And the land is eventually leased to the harboride amusement a company owned by Pal and Cole Goldstein Ionna talk more about them later Now just like the Grundy organization, they had come in with this lease promising to preserve The amusement park Instead, almost immediately after taking it over, they auction off almost everything there Destroying a piece of Sydney history in process So that brings us to the end of nineteen seventy nine when this happens I think this is a good place to stop because the next episode We're going to talk about things that happened in subsequent years which led people to question the official narrative that the government had given them made them ask questions about Who exactly is? Harborside amusement, who exactly is involved in that organization. What was Doug Knight, the lead investigator up to? Who were some of the other police officers who led the investigation What about the premiere? at the time, who's essentially the governor of the state of New South Wales. What was his involvement? What were his connections to other people? and were there people in organized crime. who may have had connections and may have also had the motive The means and the opportunity to commit an act of arson We're going to talk about all that in the next episode whether or not this actually is an arson or not, We'll give you our final conclusions on this case We'll finish with the next episode. I think that's definitely going to happen We'll go through the evidence, we'll go through some of the things that we've touched on briefly up to this point, but we did want to spend a lot of time and I think we did talking about the people who lost their lives here because that is something that should never be forgotten And I feel like It was for God. Very early on here, I feel like the inquest is proof of that The inquest, I don't want to cast aspersions necessarily on the corner because I don't think there's any evidence that the corner was covering anything up A at least intentionally. If there is, haven't se it maybe it's out there shoot me email with it But I do think There was a rush to Close this up. moveove on and forget about it to move past it point to a cause and to keep moving and that rush to end this investigation I think left open the possibility for cover. All right. Well, one thing before we move on to our ordinary post Episode thingsings. we talked about Gunther Stahall earlier. An We got an interesting email And I want to do a follow up on that case Because as we said, this was the case, if you may recall where there was the Yaksi. Note he sort of Eureka moment for Gunther. he rushes out. He ends up going to the bar, He hits his head He gets in his car, there's a car wreck, some people come upon him. They see someone apparently running off. then years later the police open an inquest And they conclude this is probably a one car accident. So we got an email from someone in Germany. That's why this is always So helpful So as we said, this was reported around the world when the German police opened this investigation and then eventually closed it again, but You couldn't read the report, they didn't release the report. and it was very sort of vague. We didn't really know Well This individual becausecause they're in Germany watched a television interview. in German obviously, with one of the lead investigators. And so he wanted to make sure it's a he Andreas. I assum Andreas is He wanted to share with us some of what they talked about on this television interview. So I' going to give you what he says and hopefully this will be helpful to you as well. So it turns out that in this interview, they noted that H shoes and clothes which He claims were found in the Volkswagen. Now you may remember Every report we looked at is close to ever found. According to this interview they did find disclose. I don't know if that's sure or not But that's what they said. I don't know why they would be like Also, adhesive tape lifts from his body kept, the headliner and the seat cushions were kept in the evidence room of the police in Hagen So obviously they didn't have the whole car, but we speculate about this. Did they keep the car? Did they keep parts of the car? It seems like they did keep parts of the car and the parts they kept They did not find any DNA evidence of a d person Doesn't necessarily mean they weren't there, but They did actually test some things so we can confirm That So we said the initial report was that he was run over by vehicle that it wasn't the cause of a car crash Well, apparently the person who issued that was not actuallyct a medical examiner So it was someone who did forensic vehicle examamination. So was someone who's familiar with Carrex, but was' a medical examiner So not as good as if it had been a medical examiner who said that. So makes you think, maybe not There were injuries. He had a wind to his right arm so severe it was nearly torn off. They were compatible with an impact on a tree. So this sort of helped this idea that maybe it was a carre So the truck drivers, rememember we talked about the truck drivers who saw the person walking off. The theory there is that it actually was Gonther. That's theory that he gets thrown out of the vehicle The windshield apparently was broken. He gets thrown out of the vehicle He's wandering around The Truck drivers see him wandering around, think it's a third person running off, and he then crawls back into the car I don't know about that. That seems a little bit of a stretch, but nevertheless, is possible Now as of the four passengers We talked about how small the car was. O problem His daughter's baby seat was in the car makes it even less likely there are four passengers in the car. Now this is what Gunther said as he's dying. He said there are four people with him. I think that makes it less likely. There are a few facts from a police interview in Germany given to us by a German listener that can help further color your thoughts on that case. It does seem like the police had reasons for the conclusions they reached If anyone else is in Germany and you have other thoughts on this This is wonderful. This is exactly what we want. We want people who are able to get information we can't get Is even if he attacks the interview 's a German. This is not very helpful to me, but nevertheless, Gaddy sent it. I'm happy send it to anybody who speaks German if they want to watch it. But thank you to him Thank you for that follow up. We're always happy to add this information whenever we get in. Yes, Thank you for that. No, that's just incredible. We have, I think the smartest listeners. L it was Wonderfully written report of what he saw Yes. Thank you so much for that. really appreciate that All right, so we talked about the Ghost train, we talked about Gunthther Stoll. If you have thoughts on either of those cases, feel free to shoot us an email. So we actually do read our emails and I know it's probably a shocker, but we do read them. evenven if we don't always respond. I did respond to this one because it was very helpful Shoot us email, prosecutorspod gmail. com at prosecutorspod for all your social Media If you want to hit us up on the gallery, which is our fan run fan created Facebook page, do so. We love talking to you guys there. If you want to watch us record these episodes Join Patreon for as little as three dollars a month You also can get the episodes early and ad free with that same Patreon membership. or if you don't like Patreon, we now offer our episodes early and ad free on Apple. You can do an Apple suubbscription, but as always You'll get it all eventually anyway, but it will be coverred up in advertising. so which makes us all happy Al right Alice, do you want to answer a question. I feel like I' talk to it Let's do it. Yes. Let's answer quest. Alice is like shut up, Brt. No, not at all. This was interesting stuff I just wish you wouldn't talk all over me, says the onene Star Reviews She kept trying to interrupt and I was like, No. That's true. I amm speaking I just can't get over the fact you didn't know a semient I'll never admit Weakness again. Never again. Never again. if you're gonna make fun of me All right, let's see, let's get a question. I'm going to ask one that's mostly to Alice because I feel like I talked a lot. Oh no. No, you didn. People love hearing you talk. There's nothing wrong with that. He This is a team, Bret All right, Megan wants to know. Have you ever listened to any music by Connor O Oberch. actually don't how to prounce his last name My favorite music by him is Bright Eyes, but he has cella stuff and more that I really love. I have listened to him. I do like it. Do you have thoughts You ever listen to that music? I haven't, but I'm definitely going to I just look them up It's great. That's really good stuff You should check it out. I definitely am I'm probably gonna go for a walk after this because you know, we always talk about how after recording, I can't go to sleep for a while. Yeah. So I need to go like walk it off. I'm gonna to go listen to some Connor Oberurst I'll admit I haven't thought about him in a long time. so thank you for bringing that up. I always like music questions are fun So Okay, let's see Oh this is perfect Do you know about this I'm just going to sit back and listen, you describe this This really should be a loo Bs question, but whatever It' some Allison So Allison wants to know about Foya Does one have to give a specific reason for filing a FOIA request when they file? What are limitations of FOA in the accessible documents? Does the filer get added to some sort of interested party database once the paperwork is submitted? What are some common examples of red tape situations a filer may run into or other Obvious obstacles Such good questions. No, you don't have to give like a specific reason. There's not gradations of it when you file a FOIA request. So FOIA stands for a Freedom of Information Act, which is the Federal Act. but I think every state has essentially a state corollary to FOIA. So depending on what you want, like if you want something from a federal agency like the FBI Treasury, whatnot, you can file a FIA request for it And if you want something that the state holds, you can file a state for your request for that information. Within it, you just have to state with particularity what you want. You don't have to give a reason. You don't have to be like This is my father. He was wrongly accused of this crime. That's why I want the documents. You just have to state it with particularity. The red tape There are so many is that even if you get the chance to ask for it, so you can ask for anything There are exceptions to FOIA. by exceptions meaning they do not have to be released by the governing body that holds them. And they're going to be slightly different each state. But there's ones that you're probably going to think of like it's an open investigation, that there's some sort of like national security to it, some sort of PII personal identifying information that would violate other statutes likeike HIPA information, if they were released. Dliberative process. if it's showing how the government thinks through, you know what their decision making is, they don't have to show you all of that work So if it slots into one of these exceptions, they don't have to produce it. They do have to explain to you why they're withholding documents and you can challenge it through a very lengthy administrative process. and you have to go through the administrative process before you go to court because if you go to court, you'll get kicked out of court saying that you haven't exhausted your administrative remedies first And then of course, the really big red tape is the sheer volume because the statute exists and you don't have to have like a particularly good reason in order to file for these FOIA requests, you can imagine that most bodies that are receiving FOIA requests and I'm talking like Millions of requests And in order to go through them, it is a human being going through them because if you have to slot them into an exception, I guess maybe with the development of AI, AI can do some of it, but you really need a human behind it And governments, state and federal are famously known for just being slow, right? Like you're going to go home at five o'clock. By the way, having worked for the federal government, I can tell you there are lots of people who work in the government who obviously work way more than that. But there's going to be a massive line of foIA requests. Typically, they're going to be first in firstirst out So you wait in line There's also the expedited cases. So anyone who expedes their case and there's a finding that their FIA request can be expedited will jump the line So you could do nothing and wait forever for your FOA request and it could actually be moving backwards in the queue rather than moving forwards And it is not uncommon to have to wait years for someone to get to your FOIA requests. Now you may be thinking, aren't there laws in place to help prevent, you know, slow walking this? Yes And it's a completely unrealistic law, at least on the federal side. The government has to respond within, I think it's like thirty days This was before the advent of electronic discovery and emails when There was just less paper Now there's so much that Basically as soon as your FOA request comes in, government asks for the statutorily allowed extension And then you just keep getting letters that extend it So we have filed numerous foOIA requests in all sorts of jurisdictions for records Sometimes we get records years later and sometimes we never hear back If you really want an action on your FOIA request basically have to file the lawsuit, which takes money and time That may have sounded depressing, but that's a very realistic look at for you So I'll give you two examples of f requests we've done recently. The first one, you guys may recall the Avengers The fiveive Avenger bombers that disappeared supposedly in the Bermuda tririangle And there was a story about someone finding an avenger in the swamp that had two people dead inside of it And there was this question about could this have been one of the Avengers? So I sent a FOA request to the Department of the Navy about this. I'm going go through this with you how this went. So I sent one to the Department of the Navy laid all this out asking for exactly what I was looking for. The Navy says We look for these records We couldn't find them But we think it's possible The National Archives and Records Administration may be in possession of them. and then they gave me where to send the FI request to them So I sent the FOI request to the narrow people. So I sent it to them. So they sent me an email that said, Thank you for submitting your Freedom of Information Act request, the National Archives and Records Administration They have, according to the email, operational records They don't have archival records. They think those records would be in possession of the office of research services. So they forwarded the request to them So then I got an email from a guy who works in the National Archives refference section And this guy was super helpful. he said he He looked through their records S. says basically that if anyone had it It would be the National Archives in Atlanta So he's forwarding the request to them. They forward the request to the National Archives in Atlanta Then the Atlanta archives email me and they say, hey, We got this email from the people in Maryland about this We're going to respond within ten business days That isn't it pretty good And they do in ten business days They send me an email And they basically say that they've looked through their records And they write this very detailed thing about You know, where the records would be and they can't find any records I've been sent them The newspaper article about it, I was like, Hey, well, here's a newspaper article. this helps And the guy says, yeah, saw that article, saw several other articles while I was doing the search But the spot that can't find any records He notes that it's possible the records would be classified and because they're classified, maybe I wouldn't actually get them. But if they were classified, they would be in the hands of the National Archives at Coege Park. Who were the people I had emailed before who actually sent it to this guy So he says to me, is like your only thing left to do As you can go through All the record group one hundred and eighty one. Naval districts and shore establishments documents in Atlanta Page by page and see whether you can find anything about this. they're obviously not going to do that. So if anybody wants to go to the National Archives at Atlanta and read the entire record group one hundred and eighty one, documents to see whether or not there's anything about the finding this Avenger Feel free to do it. but They were helpful But they didn't find anything. So it wasn't helpful in that they couldn't giveive me anything. So that was a little disappointing And by the way, the only thing unusual about that particular process was how responsive they actually were to us Usually you don't even get that much involvement Yeah, exactly. They're super responsive. And I think it helps that it's called P prosecutors's podcast, I always center in that Maybe they're afra theyll get sued or something or prosecuted. I don't know. But So that was the first one You guys may recall, we did a short series on The West Memphis three case If you blinked, you may have missed it. it was so fast But we did it. So if you wanted to hear blinked for five straight months. If you want to hear a couple episodes on Westmemph Sturory, we did that last year Well, there hadd been no question about twenty eleven DNA results and we talked about how nobody had them, nobody could find them We had some FI requests out. to the DA's office. and last year they responded with some documents that were pretty helpful But they weren't the entirety of the file. Well Last week, two weeks ago, I forget exactly it was. We got an email And they're like, he We've got the whole thing. So they sent us A thousand pages of DNA results in the West Memphis I case We put them up on prosecutorspodcast d. com if you want to read them, we also posted links on Twitter and on the Gallery So if you're into that case and you always wondered what the twenty eleven DNA results show Check that out They now free forree to look at. I will tell you, They don't show much. That's the all the conspiracy theories about what they might have said and how there was some blockbuster piece of information. That's why nobody had them. Nope Turn out not to be true. They're just Not that helpful at all, but there's a thousand pages of them. So Have fun So there you go. that's Two examples of FIA that we've done recently. one, very successful, one Not successful at all All right guys, well this has been fun. Thanks for bearing with us on this case. We'll do one more episode. The next one promises to be the most interesting of the series because they're really going to dive into. this whether there's a conspiracy, the conspiracy theory in this case that there was a cover upp And you know what S sometimes conspiracies happen. I'll say about that until next week. Alice have anything to add before we sign up. Sometimes conspiracies in the legal technical sense happen It's true, exactly. C happened In which there is a meeting of the minds and actions in furtherance of the conspiracy. That's what we're going to talk about next time All right guys, well, we will be back next week with more on this case. But until then Aret And I'm Alice, and we are the prosecutors E with a snazzy Snaazzy, whatever intro We're still not ready. No. I missed you