Reflecting on Cult Dynamics and Freedom

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The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the views of LipN or its affiliates Guest accounts are personal recollections shared from their own perspectives. References to specific individuals, organizations or groups are presented as commentary, opinion, and personal experience and should not be interpreted as definitive statement of fact. guest is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only Hey listeners, todayoday's episode discusses sexual assault. The discussion is not graphic, but please listen accordingly Welcome back to Was I in a cult?Question mark at the end of it. I'm Tyler Mesum, also known as Tyler Meesason And I'm Liz Ii Kui Also known as Lizi Gui And today is episode dose. That's two in Spanish of Lizzie N' amazing story What is it in Pennsylvania Dutch? huh? There's about a handful of people that know that and they're not listening to our show. I assure you Although Lizzie probably does Lizzie is a former Amish turned Wellness powerhouse. She's an author and a podcaster herself. So fasten up your dresses, hitch your horses to the buggy And power down your circuits because we're going to Amish country. But please don't power down the device you're listening to this episode on. No, don't go full Amish and definitely don't leave the cult of Apple Yeah, God forbid So like many things in life, the Amish live on a spectrum And Lizzie grew up in basically the most conservative sect She lived on a farm. She had zero electricity She haded no indoor plumbing whatsoever, no rubber tires Buggies were only allowed one oil lamp She made her own clothes, herer education stopped eighth grade she had very little knowledge of the outside world. The old order and the new order Amish, which aren't as extreme as Lizzy's, don't all live on farms anymore though, Due to the insane land prices, so Lately, they've been turning to different forms of work like construction, factory work, woodworking and dog breeding. Say what? Yes, this is true. In certain Amish communities, dog breeding has become a big commercial business, according to bailing out Benji. G G a bench whatever it a ben. It's a nonprofit watchdog group that focuses on puppy mills. over ninety eight percent of Ohio's puppy mills are run by Amish breiders. mean I imagine God really does love burnadoodles So to it. A medium size No not the not thees. No We joke, but to them It's all about economics, and we're not just talking about a few extra pens on a family farm The claim is that many of these operations are massive highigh volume factories. barns that were once built for animals like hogs are now converted to hold I don't know, hundreds of dogs. In some cases, the dogs are kept in the dark, stacked in wire cages with little access to grass or direct sunlight. And how do they justify it? Well, it comes down to And they do There always someone can justify it They're always setting loopholes. always setting rules and then finding a loophole, aren't they It comes down to a strict uncompromising dogma I don't want to make a joke about the word dogma, so I'm gonna skip over and let you guys fill it in. I was hoping you'd catch that. Some conservative Amish hold a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis, specifically the part where God gives man dominion over the fish of the sea, the fowl of the air and every living thing that moves upon this earth So animals are treated as tools for survival and profit. In that view, dogs are often seen more like livestock than they are like pets. Did you know that part of the Bible? Of course. Before you looked it up. You did? Of I read the Bible a few times, Liz, don't you know? How did the Mormons interpret that part of the Bible? The Mormons are a little odd about it because they They love their meat and they love their animals and they do have dominion over them without question The odd thing is that they also have the word of wisdom which says you can't have coffee or alcohol or tobacco, but it also says eat meat sparingly But I sc't know a Mormon who doesn't love a good pot roast and burgers Especially if it's in a casserole. Yeah, exactly. It's a jello hidden in there somewhere Big ass twenty four ounce diet Cke. Nothing unhealthy about that. But don't drink coffee Don't drink coffee. let's get back to the armish. Let's get back to the I got some Mormon stuff coming later So back to the Amish. Now now the fascination with the Amish has been around for a long time. It's been in movies Some really good ones like Witness, the Harrison Ford film, really good movie documentaries. There was a really great documentary called Devil's Plground. if anyone's seen it And then there's also way, way, way too many TLC shows in general and not just about the Amish, but there are There are too many TLC shows about the Amish. And that is a wormhole sadly we do not have time for today, but you guys please don't watch suddenly Amish thinking it's real That's I'm going to say. So Lizzie, she is a twin and she's one of nineteen kids, if you've forgotten that, Yes for mother had nineteen children and three sets of twins. Can you imagine being pregnant once with twins let alone three times? You know, Liz, I know a lot about what pregnancy is and how it feels and the pain you go through and the discomfort and the heat. I know a lot about that. So yeah, I think you can really embody that If you want to related to you Tell me what is morning sickness like It's not it's not good. It's hard offtten comes in the morning I do know that Let's get to the story, Let's get the story, shall we? Yes, we shall Last week we learned about Lizzie's childhood, the rules of her world, the eating disorders she developed as a teen and the tragic, tragic death of her father. And today we get more into the darker side of this group. The part that isn't just the peeaceful off the grid folk the one that is controlled by a strict set of dogma and ideals Dgma. She said it again Which all lead to her incredible escape. One of the best escape stories ever. It's very cinematic It is amazing. Now, obviously, when you're Amish, you are meant to have M, many many, many children did h I already say her mother had it nineteen. nineteen. Yes. Okay So in order to produce enough children to, I don't know, fill a chamber orchestra, You need to marry somewhat early in life. But the ammish dating and marriage rules are not necessarily what me A GenXer is accustomed to A man has to ask for marriage, they discuss it, they talk about it. and they're Wedding is usually in secret being planned for maybe six months or so because the wedding is at the girls parents house They have to prepare. They have to make sure they have extra stuff canned for the wedding, to grow extra celery that summer because they use celery as centerpieces. then people are always trying to find out who's getting married because they only get married in the winter So how are you gonna like keep all this food cold So they get married in the winter because they don't have refrigeration So at sixteen point a fiveal, you are expected to start dating When my twin and I started dating The first night that we were gonna go to a singing My mom comes into the room and the only thing she says to us was Keep your clothes on. And we're like What's he talking about? So here's the thing. We kind of knew stuff because we grew up on a farm Right But it was never explained sex was never explained to us Here's what happens And here is how you get pregnant and why. Body stuff, not explained. The idea of a baby growing in a belly. Yeahah, okay. That can make sense, but the idea of vaginally giving birth. That hole is so small, how the heck are you gonna push a baby out of that? Like that makes zero sense because they don't have that kind of talk until the night before you get married What I will say is Everybody knows what sex is B then Some of them even have sex before they get married because of the way that they date And it's just hormones and Humans They're not supposed to But it happens. But they're animals Especially the men, they are fucking animals. They are fucking animals. Ding This is, of course exempting your co host, your husband, ourur editor Rob and you, all our wonderful male listeners And at you, Jean Claude. You're still an animal So the expectation when you turn sixteen and a half is you start dating Dating is very pecired It's called bet courtship and another very weird setup considering the religion, No sex before marriage, but you're dating laying in bed together, bundling like a date would be roll around in bed. L literally. No literally So they only date at night and you can only be seen together at night, not during the day But a date could either be on a Saturday night or a Sunday night and all of a sudden it's like ten, eleven or twve o'clock and here comes a horse and buucky with three or four guys and one of them wants to go on a date with you like guys that don't want to go on a day with you. They are the ones that come up into your room. to ask you if you'll go on a date with this guy So you can say yes or no If you say no, they'll probably keep begging. But if you say yes, then what they do is they go outside, get the guy that's there for the date and then they all come up and they hang out in the room together just talking and They might go down the pantry and get some pie or cookies or something and eat whatever and the guy that's there for the date he stays after they leave, like then you can either keep the light on or turn it off, but most of the time it goes off and you lay down in bed and you talk and whatever. and then he always takes the lead and what he'll do is he'll wrap his arms around you and like roll you around. That's what's called bundling, like the rolling And then he'll either give you a kiss on the cheek or on the lips. I always say this joke, like if he kisses you on the cheek, he doesn't really like you But if he kisses you on the lips, he really likes you That's that's what it do. That's considered a date and he has to get up and leave before the rest of the family like gets up. So it could be like three or four in the morning. he gets up And he leaves and he goes home. Okay, okay, okay. so much to break downown from this previous segment The late night Buggy call. The Amish wingmen, they're pumping up their bro. Late night pantry pie and cookies. I know and bundling because They are bundled up, I guess, in blankets and their're wool rolling around together, making a supposed emotional connection. It's so much, and it's so much teenage sexual tension mired with teenage religious guilt all in one It's like the teasing and the taunting of this is what we as fucking animals, as you said earlier need but God doesn't want us to have. And when I read this I immediately thought of floating H Which is Okay, so it's in the Mormon world and I know that some of our listeners are giggling because they probably know what floating is or soaking. A lot of people in Utah use the term soaking. and no, floating is. There are things I do at a spa. I float to another place and I soak re's not what Mormons do. It's not floating in the Great Salt Lake, which by the way, is five times saltier than the ocean. so you can literally just float on it very easily But no. Okaykay. so in Mormonism, floating is a way to kind of get around the law of chastity, which is you're not allowed to have sex, right? So the man will Penetrate the woman and this, of course, is unmarried M The man will penetrate the woman but not Move, not thrust I'll just Stick his penis into the vagina and not move because when you move that then constitutes sex But sticking it in doesn't. So that's the loophole Her face is stunned, people. And then what do you do? That's it. You just that's what you do That's what you do And do you have an orgasm? I don't know. I don't know, probablyrobably not, but that's the loophole. so they can get around it and say that they haven't had sex because technically they didn't thrust. which is what sexist. Now, they've also found a loophle. they've also found a loophole to that list. In the back in the back. No. I've heard that is happening as well, but This loop, and this is real. This was actually such an incident that the Mormon Church actually had to come out and say something about it They have what they call like someone who happens to be a roommate or a friend or whatever, who happens to while you're floating just wants to jump on the bed to make it move? Yes. So you're not moving, but the roommate who happens to just want to jump on the bed while you're in there floating makes it so you move loophole What? flying shhit is this? No, right. I'm surprised Mormons don't live in California, just waiting for that great earthquake. Just waiting. Yeah, I know. And I I thought about Ethquake, I'm food in babe I've never done it. I've never done it. If you're a floater and you have floated, please email us. I need a firsthand story of this. But I also think it could be kind of fun in a way, like very tantric and you know, like to have someone come in and jump on the bed. What is a woman doing in this experience Probably feeling guilty, I don't know. But the man's not really feeling as much pleasure either, but it's how they get around it. Liz, don't question the loophole. Are they naked? I suspect it's different every time. Mormon soaking, you now know how to do it. You now know that it is done And it is very much like Amish bundling in some ways. So Amish bundling exist because it's meant to be an innocent form of connection But when you've been suppressed your whole life Well, innocence isn't always what happens. when you're in that bed None of that makes sense. It's the perfect setup for rape and all kinds of stuff to happen you know, thingsings that happen I got raped when I was sixteen Bye got raped by a cousin of mine like multiple times I remember the first time that it happened, like I ain't even fucking know what it Penos was like Never seen, never seen anything like that You kind of knew because of babies, but not as an adult and So you knew of that, but you didn't know like the whole intercourse thing. L I had no concept and he played it off as just like this normal thing But then at the end, he's like You can't tell anybody Did you tell your mom after that happened? I didn't tell anybody. But it came out like somebody found out and then it came out and then the church, you know becausecause I wasn't going to tell anybody So what they did is they punished him by shunning him because he was a member But Technically they wouldn't be able to shun me or really punish me other than like your parents putting some kind of punishment on you, whatever that is. But the church, they wouldn't stop at that. And so in the hmish community, if you're not a married person You wear a black covering to church If you are marriant, you wear a white covering But if you got pregnant Before you were married, you were forced to wear a white covering to church. Well, what they do? because of this They made Me whereere a white covering to church, even though I wasn't pregnant Two or three Sundays in a row They made me wear the white covering and that was to shame. for getting raped. Yeah. what's even worse about that part is I had a near death experience with this is So church finds out He's shuned for twelve weeks. Then he's welcomed back into the church I know, right and I'm like, great, I'm so happy everything stopped So one night we're at a singing and after the singing, people can go on dates and they're figuring out transportation, who takes who home, like all that nonsense My cousin He was trying to figure out a way that he can get me on the buggy with him to take me home. So he orchestrated the whole thing The entire time my entire body is just like flinching. sound like I don't know how to use my voice. I don't know how to say no, I don't want to do that Please don't put me on the same buggy and nobody else paying attention But they're not watching what's happening So I end up As you orchestrated, I end up on the same Buy has him and it's probably an hour cried. I don't remember because we're going home and We're actually not that far from home. And of course, he's doing his things and I just feel paralyzed and trapped And I can't I can't fight back. I can't do anything like I don't People pleasing plus suppression plus submission Put it all in one basket So he lets go of the horse reins. And so he lets go of that while he's doing his thing. and I'm li shit. I don't know what's going to happen here, but this is this isn't good He lets the horse go neverever slowed down, never looked, never did anything. never he just kept going doing what he was doing And As we're coming up to the intersection, in my peripheral vision, I see a light to the left of me, so I knew a car was coming And I just remember thinking like I would rather be dead then be here And I was like, I'm gonna die This is it We crossed the intersection and I'm telling you, Liz, it was milliseconds. milliseconds after we crossed this intersection, the car went behind us One thing that we should pause on here is something we often see in many cultic and high controlled environments That is being complicit Because indoctrination and psychological conditioning teach people that protecting the group matters more than protecting the person through fear, shame, constant reinforcement and isolation, protecting the system starts to feel necessary for survival And this is how abuse gets hidden, especially sexual abuse Here is an example of that. See. After Lizzie had left the community, she went back and she confided in her mother what had happened After I left the second time when I had decent relationship with my mom I told her one time I said, You know he didn't stop it'd happen again And like the look on her face was just like, So painful And this was My uncle son My uncle is the bishop of the church So my mom tells my uncle What happened? And the uncle goes, She loves the homage. We can't take her word for it I's like Alline Now again, her abuser was her cousin, which is her uncle's son, so her mother went directly to her own brother And that is how the abuse perpetuates Because if her uncle admitted this was true He would then have to admit the entire system isn't sae whichich threatens everything he's built his life around So the system unconsciously trains people to minimize, rationalize, deny, and silence to protect the abuser preserve their own psychological stability. and the group's harmony Here's the thing that I will say about that. Painful? to Think about those things can pauses that, but I've done so much work to heal internally that None of that shit holds me back from anything And what I will say to anybody that has experienced anythingything that is that it does get better And it can get better and you can get your voice back and you can stand up for yourself and you can become powerful and strong. Because there's people in this world that need you They need you and they need you to stand up and they need you to be able to be there for them where you get your power back. is by saying fuck that. They don't get to control my mind and my body anymore and you work your way out of that and you heal Hell yes They don't get to control my mind and body anymore The way you get your power back is by saying that Ppe it after us, everyone Fuck bad Come on in your car. I know you're there. S it on everyone, say it ready and fuck that! Don't you feel better? I do. I do. I do too So we read ads, right? That's what we do on this show. We read ads and what happens usually is a company will come to us and they'll say, we want to advertise with you And we don't always say yes. Sorry, gambling, sports betting, vaping We are selective and promote products and services we have pride and love. A while ago, Kiwio approached and said, well, we want you to try our product and see if it's the right fit. 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And yet she was still expected to wake up the damn dress and pins on every morning and get to work So when my twin and I were seventeen, we ran away together. And we were the first in our family to do that I think at that point in time I was just I was so fed up with everything, but also I knew that I didn't belong there. And I thought That was my time, I thought that was my time. Yeah, that was it. I'm leaving. So I remember When my twin and I we came home from a Sunday night singing And I just said I'm running away So you can come if you want. okay How come You know where we ran away to across the street to the Catholic family And we hung out there We hung out there overnight. The next day, we somehow snug out to Becauseuse I could see things. so we had to like be very careful So we snug out to the car and hid in the car and then they drove us into town and somehow there we connected to her cousin and went to her cousin's house Now mind you, we're min nurse But we were at a cousin of ours that had leftlink gars before. And they took us in We were there for a day and we just hung out like watching TV playing music, like And then at some point, we'll figure out what our next steps are And I thought I was out for good And day two a brother of ours. called the house And this was homephones And my twin picked up in the kitchen and I picked up in the living room and I just listened to their whole conversation without saying a word and by the end of that conversation, she told him to come pick us up that night and like my heart just dropped to the floor. So I was like, I don't want to go back This is terrible but I felt like I needed to go back because of her And she's like, I just can't put mom through this. L It's like death to them when someone leaves And so we went back And the next day I told her I was like I'm not staying. Like I will leave again That's when she was like, Yes, I'm going to leave too, but She didn't No, sadly, she didn't That doesn't mean Lizzie didn't wait for her. likeike any good sister would do hoping she would just follow through and they could finally leave together again for good And for two years, she waited for that day. ultimately never come But In that time, one thing did keep Lizzie busy and that was Boy Isizy Lizzy Nice And the way that I started dating the boyfriend is a brother of mine got married in New York. So we all went out there for the wedding and that's where I met him And we started dating. So we only saw each other like once or twice a year Now dating long distance in the Amish community without electricity, is not something many people think about. And then we wrote letters to each other. We were like little pim pals. I would write a letter every other week and he would write a letter every other week I always joke because now like people are like, oh my Godd, he didn't take me back and it's been like thirty minutes and I'm like try writing letters wo weeks for a letter We were dating for a year and a half. We saw each other once or twice a year I would either travel to New York or he would travel to Ohio. But how do you travel Gy h b But you did like this guy a lot. I like them But at the same time, like I never saw myself getting married to him, but I was like, he's the best I can do. That was my thought. So leading up to the time that I actually left, I left because of him. Well, I knew I was going to leave at some point, but I finally ended up leaving at nineteen two years after that first attempt was because of him. So he made the way. and so he served his purpose And planning an escape without electricity is also something most people don't ever think about So I'm at this point in time working at my oldest sister's house And it was my turn to deliver a letter to my boyfriend So it's lunchtim. I have the letter and at the top of the hill of the road is where the mailbox was So together and I Open the mailbox and there's a note in there with my name on it, but no address But and I recognized the handwiting, it was my boyfriend's handriting and I was like Honey I don't understand how this note got here. likeike he's in New York. There's no address If you really think about it, like what a divine moment likeike never talked about it. He drives down, puts the note in there I go to the mailbox, I'm the one that finds the note And we had never talked about leaving. so I rip open the note and he just said in the note like I ran away with My sister and we drove down from New York yesterday And If you want to leave, we'll come by at ten o'clock tonight and pick you up So I snapped my fingers and I said I'm leaving I Didn't even think about it. This is my way out. And then I didn't have any way to let him know So I had until that evening to figure out like how am I going to do this? What's this going look like? One thing that's a ridual is every night before you go to bed, everybody gathers in the living room and they all do a prayer together and then you go to bed. And so I go upstairs as if I was gonna go to bed. As soon as I got into my room, I like ripped my covering off and I let my hair down, took all my pins out, took part of my clothes, my apron and all of that stuff off, kept just my dress. And I grabbed a few things, a flashlight, I had twenty dollars That was it. And then I wrote a note to my mom and I said, this has nothing to do with anybody here, but I have to go And like I walk over to the window and I climb out onto the roof because I'm gonna jump off this roof and it's like a fifteen foot roof. As I'm climbing out onto this window, there's a dog underneath on the porch and he just starts barking and I'm like, fuck like Cght. Yes, the dog knows and he just won't shut up. So finally my brother in law like opens the door and he yells at him. Dog leaves goes down to the barn and I'm like, thans. He just helped me out. So I climb out onto the roof and my boyfriend's up on the hill flashing the flashlight, letting me know that he's there I flash back with mine to let him know that I'm coming. That was like our little signal. And on that roof, I sit for thirty minutes contemplating. First of all, I'm contemplating how I'm going to jump off this roof and not break a bone. And I'm thinking if I break a bone, now I have to go to hospital, they have to do surgery and I'll look like the biggest fool in the church and they will say that's what you get for trying to run away was my first thought process. Don't break a bone. Second thought process was, my twin is getting married in six months And I know if I leave now, I will not be at her wedding. And she had asked me to be one of her they don't call them bridesmaids but for lack of better word Bitesm. And so I'm like, man, I'm gonna miss out on her getting married. I'm thinking like, I don't know if I'll ever see my family again. I don't know But at the same time, I also knew that if I don't take this chance when I have it, I will never leave So I was like, Noope, I just got to let everything go. and so I crawl out to the edge of the roof and I squat down and I'm just looking down. How am I gonna to make this leap? And on the farm you learned that cats could literally jump or drop from a forty foot building and not break anything. And the reason for that is they just let Every limp in their bodies loose, like they just become a little flopuffpy disc. And so I was like, all right, well, I'm going to jump like a cat. And so I took a deep breath And I jump like a cat And I just let every part of my body not be stiff. And when I landed I landed on my feet, but my knees did that shock where like landed in that squat. everything was fine. You're a fucking cat woman. Yeah I should have have my cats suit. And then whatd you do? you were like, Okay, so when I landed, I was like, holy shit, that was loud I was so afraid they hurt something. So I quickly ran up against the building. And then instead of just running straight out of the road, I walked around three buildings on the side of the buildings and then moved around and walked up from there. because I was like, there's no in hell someone's gonna find me. gotot in the truck, everybody screamed and yelled and we went back to our friend's place and we just stayed up all night. Beachbum's June Jackpot is dealing out winners all week long. sccore seven dollar Sun or spray tans, seven dollarars Red light or sauna, seven dollars lotions, and more. Feeling lucky? G buy one, get one seventy percent off packages. No gamble, just glow. The odds are in your favor, and these seven dollar deals are your ticket to a golden summer. Beachbum's June Jackpot sale is live through june seventh. Don't miss it at Beachbum Tanning. Your glow up starts now. Head to beachbum dot com and stay tan and tasty all summer long The crazy thing about that is I had no social security number twenty dollars in my pocket. I had no freaking clue what I was gonna do A friend of mine whose sister was working for this restaurant and the owners of the restaurant were familiar with people running away and they hired me in. I didn't have social seecurity numbers, so they had to pay me under the table The first time I got a check, it was like fiftyllars and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so much money. Th meo spent this money. and then I realized that fifty dollars doesn't go very far I was like, Oh wait, that's not a lot of money. So did you get your JC Penny moment? No, it was Walmart. Okay, so you went to Walmart and what happens? I got underwear, which we had homemade underwears, pair of jeans, one shirt, socks and shoes. That's it. Pants Yeah, pants for the first time. And then second order of business was getting a haircut Cutting your hair is like the ultimate sin. As an Amage woman, like you don't do that a local lady that was used to Amish kids running away goo there, like sit in the chair and she's like, okay, like how much do you want to take off? Can I like to my shoulders and she like looked at me like Are you sure? 'causeuse my hair is all the way down to my hips. And u Yep she cut them all the way to my shoulders It's that feeling of like you turn around and you see yourself with a short hair and I literally went, there you are Nice to meet you It was the first time I saw me. A young woman who grew up without mirrors, who had never gotten a haircut in nineteen years, who had been conditioned to believe that adjusting your appearance was vain and vanity was a sin turnurns and sees true self reflected back. That visual is everything Very cinematic So good. So two days after I left, I got introduced to this married couple I had left five years before. And they agreed to take me in and let me live with them and they said, Hey, you'll pay fifty dollars a month on rent and we'll help you with your social security number, your driver's license, and you getting your first car, once you have all that, you can move out I'm just like, boom, let's go. So the first order of business was getting social security number. So I had to go find my doctor who was my mom's doctor. I had no other doctor to get a medical record Then I had to go to the health department and pay twenty five dollars for a birth certificate. got that. The last thing I needed was my eighth grade education card for a form of identity So I had to go home on a Sunday I knew everybody was at church to go through my things to get my eighth grade education card And then I got my driver's And the first time I got into a car, I was like, I had no clue. I had to go into a parking lot with someone And they had to tell me where everything is And the first time driving on the road was king scary So scary. Let's say you're riding in a horse and buggy. if a big truck comes towards you, that horse can get scared. and so you have to be alert and aware of like Let's make sure we don't go into the ditch And That was my fear when I started driving a car And then I realized I'm in control of that car. there's no horse. Like there's no horse here. But yeah, so within two months, I I had all of that. they helped me get my car and I moved out It's crazy in just two months. Two months, you had a social seecurity number, a birth certificate, a driver's license, a car on place to live Two months. Yeah. Most people can't get a passport renewed in two months. And we grew up in this modern society. And she did it with no education beyond eighth grade English as her second language, no family, support, no money. and a headful of dogma telling her she was damning her soul with every step. Now, of course, at this time she did have a boyfriend. rememember the one who was the catalyst to have her leave the Amish community, but They're fucinking animals. Okay And within two months, he kind of broke out with me because He cheated on me and And it was just like this whole thing. I don't really talk about that because it doesn't mean anything to me two weeks after I had left I'm living at this couple's house, Chake and Anna, and I'm in my room, and Anna comes to my room and she goes, Hey, there's a horse and buookkey out there And I was like, I'm I not going out there So she goes out there and she tells them that I'm not coming out. They set out there for two hours They wanted to come to me and ask if it's okay if they can shun me. I'm like, I'm not giving you the rights to shun me. Like if you want to shun me, make that decision on your own I'm not telling you yes because I don't agree with it. They set out there for two hours And then they leftgh. So the church had to come together as a whole and vote. and then that's Got shned So about two months after I left, I was a dishwasher at a restaurant and my mom and my twins showed up at the restaurant. and said that they need to talk to me It was very uncomfortable Of course the whole time mom's trying to convince me to come home. can I just really didn't say anything, but my twin's heart was obviously like broken She's begging me to come home, but slight No She ended up getting married and then she started having kids and I would go see her like every six months to a year. And when they had their second baby, I was there visiting and her husband was like, you can't come here anymore He's like, we have children now and I don't want my kids to see you. I still remember like my twin sitting in a rocking chair holding the baby as he's saying this and her head's just like down like she's just like the saddest person ever kind of never went back Personally no twins I know the bond they have. They are like one person in two people's bodies and too pull them apart like this one of the many devastations of call and this cult When was the first time you went back to see your Very uncomfortable I think you just feel like you want to show like, hey, you're okay and At the end of the day, you know, are they going to accept me for who I am and the choice I made es, I do think that a lot of people they are looking for that acceptance from their family But the first few years, it was difficult because It's her trying to persuade me to come back But then eventually, I waited one time I didn't home to see her for six months, and then when I finally did go see her, she's like, donon't ever wait that long again to come see me Be I think at that point in time now she knows I'm not going to come back and she accepted it a long time ago So now is just, hey, I'm just happy to see you And I think what makes my mom such a beautiful human being now is because I never tried to change her I never told her like what you're doing is wrong what you're believing is wrong I'm just me. showing I'm okay I'm happy I'm living a beautiful life N not out here doing bad shit And that is what will change people's minds about you and what you believe, not by what you tell them And when you come from a religion where you're told all the time, like what you can and can't do, believe, don't believe The last thing that you want is somebody to come in and tell you like you're wrong Now this advice should be noted for anyone who struggles while their family members or loved ones are in a cult or in a high control group takeake no Don't make them feel bad Now you probably recall the mouthwatering ammish menu that Lizzie laid out in the previous episode. And when you've lived on a farm and grown your own food your whole life, one thing That is a shocker from the modern world is What the hell have we done to food? I got introduced to fast food and microwave food and nutty bars and pop tarts were my thing. I loveved hamburger health. Bring it on and twentyw pounds later, I was like, there's something wrong here and then I still have body dysmorphia. so obsessed with my body. Body dysmorphia And that image unless you bite that in the butt. It will follow you everywhere. All of a sudden, people in my life start to compare me to other people. And I had to like nip it in the butt be like That's not going happen. I am me. You're not going to compare me to them. Like I have to do deep work personally to get rid of that comparison shit. And that's where I started to learn to really use my voice. because one thing that happens a lot with the homage women is the suppression of the voice. like you don't necessarily have that voice. Note to listeners insert any cult here. Or you can insert a church, a culture, a company, a relationship or a political party for that matter The first few years that you're out, you're just exploring, you're surviving. There's a massive culture shop. you're partying, you're drinking, you're smoking cigarettes, you're listening to music without having to hide. and Really you don't know what you don't know until you do know. And then when you do know That's when I started going back into hiding It's like Wh I don't like this. This is uncomfortable The pendulum must swing, for that is what pendulums do The farther you pull them back in one direction, the further they swing in the other.. Legend has it, Liz That Galileo became interested and fascinated by pendulums after watching a chandelier sway He's at cathedral while he was supposed to be paying attention to mass, which Sounds like something I would do, but He noticed that no matter how big the swing, the time it took to swing back and forth, it stayed the same which became the foundation for every pendulum clock for the next three hundred years So you lock a girl down for nineteen years with no music, no drinking, no real dating, no voice. And you cut the rope, well, she's gonna swing all the way to the other side Not a bad thing It's just physics. process, like it takes dework. in order to get yourself from that. If you want to heal and get better, you have to separate yourself from the crowd birds of a feather flock together And so if you're leaving and all you want to do is hang around other exomaged people and that's your community, I get it I get it, it's a comfort zone. But you can't heal there. I came to this conclusion where I was like, I got to get out of here. I was mostly hanging out with ex Amish people And I felt this pole again And so I intentionally pulled myself away and I became friends with people that didn't grow up in the Amish community. And that's where I really started to grow and I would just put myself in these uncomfortable situations Like how do you just How do you live life withithout this like doom over you And be a free spirit, travel the world After I left. All I wanted to do is run away from who I was Leave everything behind. I don't want anybody to know that I crew a homage because I don't want them to think that I'm stupid And so if I was in conversation with someone And they said something to me that I had no clue what it meant. I would pretend Like I knew what it meant So again, I go back to hiding. because I was ashamed. There's a lot of shame. Well I'm in there But then I leave and all I want to do is run away from that And the truth is, Lizzie was far from stupid. We've seen that. She just was u educated She quickly realized she didn't just want out of the Amish life. She wanted into the world And that meant catching up on everything the Amish never let her learn Okay, I'm going to go get my GED now And I remember the teacher telling me to write an essay and I didn't know what an essay was So she was the first person that ever asked me, what do you want to do Like you can do anything. What do you want to do I ended up, I passed the GET test the first time and she ended up enrolling me in the honors student program So that's where I discovered I eventually want to go into the health field. and that's where my whole health career started with personal training and going into holistic health and getting certified as a holistic health coach And then after I started my business in twenty twenty, my telehealth coaching business So I went back to school and I studied functional health And that's where I got. certified in functional health as a practitioner But now I'm back in school to get my doctorate in fununkl. Yeah, so you're getting your PhD. my PhD baby That's amazing. And you got married along the way? Yep, got married and was married for ten years Had a kido And then cut thest. And now we have a beautiful split fifty, fifty custody and raising the kids together So my last question for you, is the Amish a cult? I like to say that they have cult like features Some people will argue that, but my experience in what I know from full on cults, I don't feel that. But depending on who you ask that come from the homage, they'll just be like, oh yeah, no questions asked. It is a cult based on what you know now How would you describe it? At least the sect that I've learned from you, it has information control No radio, no TV, no newspapers, no internet, no reading materials. No education. There's behavior control, right? Every aspect of your day is regulated. They're controlling how you eat, what you eat, what you do, when you go to sleep, every moment is controlled, then there's the thought control, right? Leaving equals going to hell. so you're building this whole basis off of shunning. That's a very cult thing, right? You're in or you're out, us versus them. We're going to heaven. They're going to hell. That's a very cult mentality. You're needing to escape That's very cult like, right? The emotional control anger is a sin. And then just the cover ups that happen, right? Like your your instance with the sexual abuse, how that is justified and turned back on you and to keep the community safe instead of keeping the person safe No, that's true Very much sure. But I also understand it's a It's a word that comes with it's loaded. The reason that I'm careful with it is because of the interpretation on what you said like the sting and the shame And I don't want people that are still in the homage community to feel that. I want them to feel inspired to hey Maybe this isn't right And I can leave to if I want to Like you said, you can't ever convince somebody to leave, one hundred percent agree. E planting the seed of maybe this is a cult that sticks with you. And that might be the thing that will help you eventually. to get your voice take ownership of your life. Yeah, no, the thing that I will say for anybody Don't be afraid to unravel these things Get a therapist, get a mentor, get a coach. and then go inner and read self development books and listen to self development, personal development. Don't shut yourself down You deserve to meet The version of you that you have never met One of the most profound things you can do is go back and meet the little girl And one of the things that I did to finally let her go was to go back Talk to her, meet her help her heal can one day I said, Okaykay, you can go now I'm good And I was able to walk through that door and know like That's no longer holding me back One of my favorite things to ask people and make people do if they listen is I will ask them this question. if you take away all the titles I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm a girlfriend, I'm a sister, whatever it is. You take away all of those titles and you write down who am I? and about one hundred percent of people can't answer it. Titles are just titles, but who are you on the inside? And there's nothing wrong with that. It just means you haven't been taught to find out who you really are So who are you? I am Lizie Anz. I'm a leader. I'm powerful. I'm an example. I'm a guy. I'm me Girl, you bothother cry. I know Now you're gonna cry. You're supposed to cry. I just made you cry It's powerful. I will let you go. I know I've taken up way too much of your time. Thank you so much. It was so amazing. Now If there's something that we can take from this story and these episodes, O perhaps it's this few lines from the first episode. order, structure, and discipline You get up? and you get your chores done. you all get together for your meal three times a day. and Those are things that I see lacking so much in this chaotic modern world with access to so many quick things, Amazon priming everything, food delivery everything, quick fast stuff and people wonder why they have anxiety and The truth of the matter is The Amies don't need the world The world needs a little bit more ammish without the religion Yes, without the religion. And maybe without the control and without the voices that are suppressed without the eighth grade education that simply promoted her to housework withithout the young daughters that are married off. The hair that is never cut. the bodies that are rarely bathed. The children that work from age five The women that cook for twenty plus people without complaint. The motherss giving birth nineteen times nineteen Choices not given The questions not allowed. The girls who are never asked what they want to be when they grow up. The uncles that cover up their own sons's braes And without the twin sister that won't talk to you anymore All because you left home Yeah. Without that version of the Amish Now the slowing down The meals around one table, the lack of cell phones and doom scrolling The homemade jam, the pie at lunch, the work ethic, the showing up no matter what. The doing what needs doing, the knowing how to make something with your own hands the entire community cooking for a funeral